Who cares when you PVR?

[The Ferret]

So who cares in your Service when you PVR?

How many of you out there were asked "why are you going" when you slapped that letter on your OC/CO's desk? Your OC/CO, if he is worth his salt, probably knows why he has received your resignation but who in the hierarchy and the "power echelons" knows, or even wants to know?

Has anybody our there been persuaded to stay by being asked to visit "Admin HQ" and made an offer not to be refused?

Or is it just accepted?

Answers on a postcard.................:uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh:

[Mikehegland]

Do you think the AF owe you a career?


No one cares when you leave...

[Melchett01]

Mike - "Do you think the AF owe you a career?"

Lets turn that one around shall we? Do you think I owe the AF anything? That attitude works both ways, especially when you consider that the military today aims to recruit the best that is out there. If you aim for the best recruits, don't be surprised when they leave after a few years of you treating them like sh*t.

The military isn't a vocation these days, it's a career and is advertised as such. Higher entry standards, higher qualifications of recruits - many with degrees and post-grad degrees in the junior ranks let alone the officer corps, leadership qualities - as suggested by passing Cranditz/NCO aircrew trg, getting promoted etc, flexibility, ability to work under own initiative, integrity etc. They are all qualities much admired by civilian employers, and prevalent in the military.

So Mike, no I don't think the AF owes me a career. I expect to work hard and earn my money and any promotion or other benefits; however, if it expects things to be a one-way street, its going to get a shock when all the competent people lget hacked off and eave for civilian jobs, leaving only the sh*t left in to get picked up, creating a vicious circle of competent people getting hacked off, leaving and then more sh*t getting promoted. That's the root of the problem at the moment - the sh*t floats theory.

But to get back to the original question I'd have to say that 99% of the time, I would expect the chain of command not to give a damn about why you are leaving (see sh*t floats theory above). It's one less OJAR / ACR for them to write.

However, I did hear about someone on my station PVR-ing and their sqn cdr getting them in the office for a chat, trying to find out why they were leaving. At the end of the chat, said sqn ldr turned round and said that if he was doing his job properly and looking after the interests of the sqn he'd try and persuade the person in question to stay. However he promptly announced that said person was wasted in the RAF - if he were in their position, he wouldn't hang around either.

Now that made a re-freshing change - someone further up the food chain acknowledging how bad things have become. Bet it's the exception to the rule though and most others would just tell you to stick your papers in their tray for signing.

[jobsworth]

I PVR'D I was never asked why I was going, the person in psf simply showed me the amount of files that were related to the same thing. I was leaving to go to a job where they pay me more, give me a chance of achieving somthing with my career and treat me like an adult. I even got a glowing final assesment saying I had outlined my intentions and followed them through. I was out in 28 days. Finished the friday and started the new job on the monday.

As for employing the best people out there, I would not employ half the people I used to work with. They just spent a million pounds on the computer for our office. They encourage people who want to progress and have ideas about the future, and I am not towing the corporate line. But just because you were in the military, does not give you the right to anything special.

[Mikehegland]

Totally concur with that one. Half the people I used to work with wouldnt last long in this company.


And as far as believeing that the AF has a career...goodness me man, get a grip. Thats not a career. School teacher, Doctor, Bank manager...they are careers...but Air Force Officer...? really?

[jayteeto]

The day you go is really strange. I did 24 years and my last memory was the PSF clerk saying "can I have your ID card please?". He then said "That's it then". No-one even says thanks or goodbye.
What you must understand is that this has gone on for years, you are not irreplaceable. They do not need to persuade you to stay. If you wanted to.... you would do it. One year gone and I haven't missed it much.

[allan907]

Was asked to withdraw my PVR 'cos I was on the wg cdr psl and my application obviously mucked things up a bit. Refused to withdraw (application for emigration to Oz depended on exit date) and have never looked back since. Loved just about every single day of my time in the RAF but haven't regretted leaving.

[BANANASBANANAS]

Things certainly have changed. I applied for PVR in 1989 and was told my exit date would be 1992. I was determined to leave so accepted the exit date and was promptly invited for a chat by Harry Staish to explain my reasons. He accepted what I said, told me that, as far as he was concerned, I could rescind the PVR at any stage and without penalty to my career prospects.

I enjoyed my time in the RAF but, despite the insecurity of civilian life, I do not regret leaving one iota.

[BEagle]

The only people who will give a $hit are the resettlement folks. As for the hierarchy, they couldn't care less - you'll just be a statistic helping to solve Binnsworth's manning surplus.

You'll probably even have to pay for your own Dining-Out these days - and it's unlikely they'll want you to give a speech if you haven't been a party line worker bee.

It can work both ways though; I didn't go to the airlines, but I'm told that those who have often tip off the airline recruiters about which other mates to look out for - and which back-stabbing ex-senior officers to black list!

[rej]

BEagle


'You'll probably even have to pay for your own Dining-Out these days - and it's unlikely they'll want you to give a speech if you haven't been a party line worker bee'

Pretty much spot on with your comment:

However;

I have seen a number of good people leave the service either on PVR terms or at their release point - without even being offered to be dined out. Out of sight out of mind is the order of the day!

[JessTheDog]

Do you think the AF owe you a career? No one cares when you leave...

I left on PVR recently and found that the command chain on unit and at PMA were both helpful and respectful of my motivation and made no attempt to dissuade me once I had stated firmly I was leaving. A Gp Capt at PMA sent a questionnaire on my reasons for PVR. I had some worries about the last year in service, whether it would be awkward in any way, but the last few months were among the best times I have had in the RAF.

I've had people working for me leave on PVR and it followed a similar pattern - if someone wants to go then there's no point in trying to talk them out of it, particularly if the reasons are family-orientated.

People do care but life goes on, both for those leaving and for those staying in.

[Engineer]

So who cares in your Service when you PVR?

Like most things in life the time people notice the most is when something is done en masse.

Until then as stated previously you are just a statistic :ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

Years ago all the sim and ops slots were filled with PVRing pilots. At least that has stopped.

One of my men just jumped. I didn't try very hard to keep him but did talk over the pros and cons. Probable promotion - plus - retraining - minus - posting - minus - more pay + better pension + compared with BWoS same job + much more pay ++ less time to same money + posting - danger money ++.

He jumped.

[ShyTorque]

I left at option point (18 yrs) and asked to be released 10 weeks early iaw QRs, as I had a time critical job pending outside. Staish tried to prevent me leaving on time to take up civilian job, by vetoing request, despite full support of Sqn. He also put most of my final report scores as low as he could, at complete variance with those of my Flt Cdr and Sqn Cdr. Called me disloyal to my face. I took my leave owing and resettlement course and left 8 weeks early anyway. Sent the bill for 28 days rate 1's spent abroad in an "expensive area" addressed to him in person, which gave me some satisfaction.

[The Gorilla]

The Service, and I can only refer to the Air Force, has never really been interested in those who PVR. I can relate to this attitude as one of the RAF's mainstays has always been that no one, no matter who they are, is irreplaceable. This is deeply rooted in the can I have your egg if you don't come back ages.

It is true that once you indicate your wish to leave your card is marked as disloyal but thats a small price to pay IMHO. I have no doubt there are those who experience mean minded individuals within the admin fraternity but hey I am not going down THAT route!!

I do firmly believe that the only reason Hoon and the rest are reducing the RAF to 40K + individuals is because that target figure was going be achieved by an ever increasing PVR rate and inability to recruit/retain new blood.

And I also found the PVR process to be most pleasing and a very pleasant experience. The hardest part? Actually making the decision to jump out and rejoin the real world, something that every one has to do at some point in their careers.

Also like Jess I recieved the tell us why you are leaving questionnaire which I binned, as well a grand thank you for 28 years letter from the Defence Council via some Air Officer. That one's in a frame!! The pension is very nice too, thanks Gordon!!

All I can say is that 28 years enriched my life beyond my dreams and made me who am I am today. I have also discovered that in a few places, the grass really can be greener on this side of the fence!!




:ok:

[Willy Miller]

I PVR'd , after 8 years AEOp and just had a chat with the Sqn boss. Never went further than that, except for a chat with Dr John Reid in the O's mess once , when he was Defence Sec:

"So sonny are you enjoying your time in the RAF then?"............................

"Well actually I've done 8 years and I leave in a couple of weeks!"...........................Watch as contents of mess slowly form into huddled groups and drift away.................!

AE leader did offer some nice postings and good words of enchouragement but I think It was known I was going and that was that.

They did get ****ty about leaving early by about 4 weeks so I said that I would do a Cpl Clinger and say I was gay (Even though soon to be married!)

I was put on gardening leave and never looked back

Do miss the lads, Dets and the Irish stew you used to get in the Mighty Hunter.

Ah happy days!;)

[The Ferret]

Interesting! I am in my 28th year with the RN and PVR'd in Sep 04. The reason for starting this thread, and I can see that I am not alone here, is that since my letter went in I have received no such questionnaire of why I have PVR'd, no queries from anybody from "Staish" level or above asking why? I have been given all the resettlement advice and assistance that I would expect but it amazes me that there is no follow up on an officer's PVR!

There are a huge "dark blue" movement at present to Oz and NZ , (although I am going elsewhere abroad) and I am sure that there must be a trend in PVR reasons that the UK Mil can pick up on!

I have a job to go to next year which was supposed to start early next year. The RN said that I could go in 9 months from the date of my letter although I had asked for 6. Fortunately with terminal/resettlement and annual leave I can start "resettling" with my new company after 7 months but I had to re-negotiate!

A question for the light blue - does the RAF issue a Retired Officer's ID Card at the moment?

[BEagle]

Not unless you're called-out for one of Trust-me-Tone's bring-a-bottle wars to get him out of the undermanning crisis successive governments have brought on the UK Armed Forces.

You can have 35 years' service and held Top Secret clearance, but the day after you leave you're entitled to nothing except your pension. If you want a social pass for civilian membership of an on-station club or society, you'll even have to fill out the same Plod questionnaire as someone who's never ever been in the forces....

Not quite the same as the way the US treats its ex-servicemen and women!

[Climebear]

There seems to be an assumption here that the RAF considers PVRing to be a bad thing - it may be news but it doesn't. In fact a degree of PVR applications is accepted - even when the size of the Service is not reducing. Reducing PVR rates too low can have a detrimental effect - remember 1 man's PVR could equal 1 or more men's promotions (1 WO PVRing leads to 4 individuals being promoted earlier than they would have done had the WO stayed in until he was 55 (5 for tech trades/2 for NCA)). Therefore, reducing PVR rates too low effects promotion rates which, in turn, could lead people to PVRing!

So PVR is accepted as a fact of life as long as it is of manageable proportions - it is not something that is special (especially when living in a society that - apparently - no longer wishes to spend their lives in one career).

[airborne_artist]

And to continue on Climebear's theme, it may actually be better for the UK's military capability to have more turnover of manpower, so long as training units can cope. More turnover means more people with fairly fresh skills who can be re-called and mobilised for another of Trust-me's expeditonary extravaganzas.....

[Titan Locked]

But BEagle - surely you must be a member of RAFA (you know, lots of old blokes hanging around talking about the good old days!!:p ) - pay your £10 and you can get an RAF Veterans ID Card. That'll impress the civ guards at your former stomping ground and allow you full and unescorted access to see how even further it (and the RAF) has gone downhill ...!:ok:

Or maybe not!

[Eye off the ball]

PVR seems to be full of folklore methinks. I knew a guy who got out quick/threatened a lawsuit/talked nicely to PMA/Got shafted for his last 6/12/18 months etc etc.

Does anyone really know the definitive answer in terms of eligibility for PVR?

1 - Amortisation from 1st/subsequent OCUs?
2- Amortisation after promotion (is that substantive or acting?)
3- Can you PVR if you are currently in acting rank?
4 - Can you be held to more than 12 months?
5 - Can you get posted anywhere in your last x months after applying for PVR or are OOAs out of bounds?

The answers don't seem to all that well documented. Well they might be but if you start asking for obscure APs etc, the deskie will think I'm up to something!

I suppose I might be up to something actually!

[Climebear]

Eye off the ball

Some pointers for your Qs - Amortisation no longer exists however some trg (and promotion for officers) attracts a Trg Return of Service - details should be in AP3392 Vol2 which is available on the RAF/MOD Intranet if you don't want to bother your Stn P Staff/deskie (also details of Trg ROS are published in DCI JS 4/04- again available on the Intranet - First OCU is 72 month RoS, subsequent OCUs are 26 month ROS (varies for Army)). I don't have access so I can't give you any further steers. Rules on PVRs are similarly covered. If that doesn't help then the Air Sec's Personnel Staff Instructions (ie to Desk Offrs) are also on the Intranet - look under publications then personnel.

There are no get out of OOA clauses; however, deployments should (whenever possible - (a big get out clause)) - enable individuals to complete any resettlement benefits.

The other myth is that PVR is vulnerable to challenge in employment law - it has been challenged and the challenge failed. Even the Europeans - who had largely conscripted Armed Forces when the legislation was drafted - wouldn't allow someone just to leave their forces because they didn't like it! As an aside the European-Based Human Right preventing forced labour includes and exemption for the Armed Forces! Moreover, PVRing is not a right. Airmen have the right to give 18-months notice (enshrined by parliament in the RAF Terms of Service Regulations (work out the abbreviation yourselves). PVR is a manning tool that can be granted or withheld.

Hope this helps

[Melchett01]

Had an army chum who wanted out after completing 4/5 yrs. Was told it would take a minimum of a year, which everyone thinks was a deliberate ploy to shaft said person as they had an offer to go and train as a solicitor starting 8 months later.

The army dragged their feet, trying to persuad my mate to stay even though it was obvious there was no chance and then produced the 12 month clause just as he had been accepted for a law course.

Many weeks of wrangling later and my mate had got his escape chit signed by the committee and was over the wire. He had gone back to his prospective employers who had argued on his behalf that he only needed to serve a period of notice equivalent to the period he was paid over ie one month. After a few weeks of muttering and hurrumphing they gave in and let him go.

So it does appear that if you know EXACTLY what you are talking about and are prepared to challenge the muppets that live upstairs, you do stand a chance of winning.

PS Don't quote me if you ever need an early escape chit!!

[MobiusTrip]

...and PVR has been challenged and the challenge won. I stood there and watched it. Myths work both ways it would appear.

MT

[Climebear]

Anyone can challenge a decision on PVR (through redress to judicial review if you want to spend the money) such a decision would be based on reasonableness taking into all circumstances.

As far as the legal status of PVR stands it remains and has not been challenged at either court of employment tribunal. The civvy law firm would have known that the Armed Forces are specifically exempted from the notice provisions of the Employment Rights Act (Armed Forces personnel don't have a right to go to an Employment Tribunal for this unlike their civilian counterparts - ET rights are restricted to sex/race discrimination and equal pay act).

Without knowing the cases mention, I would guess that the challenges were down to the efficacy of individual decisions rather than general legality.

[pr00ne]

It certainly can be done, but there is a subtle distinction in WHAT can be done.

I went midway through my third tour, I had some severely senior legal help and got out almost at the time I wanted, that still took a good 16 weeks and I was then free to go in another eight. I wasn't challenging PVR as such but the right to be denied employment prospects based on the length of time I had to serve AFTER pulling the yellow and black.

I was so impressed with the legal process that it led to an entirely new career direction for me, I had no intention of being a solicitor when I left and had no idea what a Barrister was.

That was all a long time ago and it must be much easier now, I also had some rather draconian restrictions on publicity placed upon me that if I knew now what I knew then I would have challenged with the utmost vigour. Though in hindsight my acceptance of them at the time certainly smoothed my path.

[MobiusTrip]

Climebear,

OK, that makes sense. I think that what pr00ne talks about is what this particular chap probably did then - the 'don't tell anyone' clause was certainly employed (on him, not me!). Looks like they try and keep these things very quiet, I know of a few just because I was in the locality when they ocurred.

MT

[Dancing Bear]

There's a few Dark Blue stories of personell challenging the 12 months rule and stating they would only give one months notice aka the European Courts version of notice vs pay interval if you are without contract, as I believe all commissions are. One corker involved the Naval Provost turning up on the doorstop on day 32 and attempting to arrest the retiree, only to be confronted by his rather large solicitor threatening writs for wrongful arrest, harrasment etc, etc worked a treat!!

Appears that if you fight your corner the agreement is "okay you can go but don't tell anyone else!!"

In fairness 12 months notice does give a decent chunk of paid time for those who want it, if His Tonineness really wants 12 months notice then he should put it in the contract.......

,...........you've all got one haven't you??

[JessTheDog]

More turnover means more people with fairly fresh skills who can be re-called and mobilised for another of Trust-me's expeditonary extravaganzas.....

B*lls to that! Most of us with reserve committments are not willing to be used as cheap labour to allow cost-saving cutbacks. If the Russians, Chinese, French or Americans are coming en masse over the horizon, then fair enough but Dubya and T Bliar's little ventures are somewhat different!

That would be assuming I got to the letterbox before Mrs Dog, who would simply burn the brown letter!

[Eye off the ball]

I've heard abbreviated/ exaggerated versions of the above stories before. I'd also heard about the instances of the off the record "Alright then, we'll let you go but don't tell anyone about this, ok"

I've had a quick look through my filing cabinet for my contract but can't find it; I must have mislaid it at some stage I presume.

What if you have signed a 6 or 3 year post ocu training return though, or are in acting rank; can they then hold on to you? Seems unlikely that having not given you substantive rank they can then demand your services for 3 years because you accepted acting rank. I've been surprised before though mind you!

[Dancing Bear]

EOTB,

Think it breaks down like this;

Acting rank, doesn't change the price of fish.

Return of Service is enforcable as you sent a joining letter in response to your appointment (dark blue speak I'm afraid)
which you signed, therfore accepting the required return of service for that particular course, which you were informed of on the Appointment letter. If you therefore leave you are backtracking on that agreement and therefore have to "Buy" yourself out to recompense the crown for a tiny proportion of the cost of the course or sty until the end of that return of service

Not a Naval Barister by trade but believe this is about right!!:ok:

[The Gorilla]

Jess

Right on mate I am the same as you!!

Having said that though and having read through the reserve acts, some one like you and me i.e. time served +22 on a permanent pension would only be called out in defence of the homeland anyway.

Not for us a reserve tour to Thumrait!!

:ok:

[Hueymeister]

No one really...why should they in this present climate? (I know they should..but let's face with mass redundancies on the horizon....) One man leaving is not going to make much of a difference; when we are smaller or when getting out becomes an even more attractive option, then maybe they'll take more notice (retention bonuses?????) It reminds me of the analogy about taking your hand out of a bucket of water...there's no hole left is there?

Will we survive long enough to celebrate the Air Force's Centennial..I doubt it and I'm not alone. The future is not that rosy for us Crabs staying an independent arm of UK MOD Plc. There are around 40 starred posts in the Light Blue at the mo....and over 1100 Wg Cdrs waiting for a chance to fill them...the maths isn't good.

HM

[richlear]

I decided to leave at my 8 year point and what really sealed my decision to leave was my AE leader calling me into his office for a chat and intimating that if things went well I could look forward to sitting in that chair one day....hmmmmm...If that was the best I could hope for then it was time to go and try something else!

I found the whole process of leaving very strange - just handed in my 1250, kept what bits of kit I could get away with and went on terminal leave/resettlement.

Thoroughly enjoyed my time but do not regret leaving at all. I am lucky, I still visit Kinloss and get to fly every now and again....the same banter, the same jokes, same faces - but the food is better now!

[The Ferret]

I just learned that the reason I was not sent a PVR Questionnaire was because the that particular process has been taken as a savings measure! Amazing!

We manage to interview the lower ranks when they put their notice in and establish trends in PVR, but there appears to be no (dark blue at least) process in place to address the officer corps!

Surely this is madness?

[EESDL]

Whilst I wait for my Resettlement clerk to get back to work can any of you advise whether or not one is still eligible for resettlement/ELCs if you PVR?
Just wondering!

[Eye off the ball]

Oh yes!
You are certainly entitled to ELC's (as long as you have already registered) and you will also be able to claim ELCs for some years after you have departed for greener grass. I can't remember the detail but it's an unusually good deal.

You'll also be pleased to know that after PVR you will also qualify for GRT (Graduated Resettlement Time) which varies with years service but 8+yrs = 25 days, 12+yrs = 30 days.

The admin clerks just love digging all this stuff out. There can be an element of 'if you don't know what you're entitled to then I'm not telling you' but the one I spoke to was very helpful. I'm sure you'll be paying yours a visit when he/she's back at work!
Hope I've cheered you up!!:ok:

[Yeller_Gait]

Huey,

Taking it that your figures are fairly accurate, if the RAF has 1100 Wg Cdrs, assuming each Wg Cdr is responsible for 100 personnel, (a typical figure for a Squadron), then there must be an awful lot of Wg Cdrs with very little responsibility !!!

I also dread to think how many Sqn Ldrs there are in the RAF, I guess there are at least 8 on each of the Squadrons here.

The phrase " too many chiefs and not enough Indians" springs to mind.

Happy New Year everyone,

[EESDL]

Eye off the Ball
Do they count your years served for your PVR pension rate to the date of your PVR submission, or to the date of your departure (ie your term served)?
Strange question but I'm sure you understand my pessimism!
Admin clerk back in work tomorrow!!!!

[Climebear]

Reckonable Service for pension (from joining or age 18 for other ranks whichever is the latter; from joining or age 21 for officers whichever is the latter) is counted up until exit/retirment.

[EESDL]

All queries answered and resolved, thanks - apart from one re pvr pension rate affecting previous 16 years. If they must, then abate my 17th year but why do they think they can touch my original time? Will be discussing that one at some workshop or other.

PTC have been reasonable - last working day mid-Mar.

[bluntie]

I am currently on my way out after 22 yrs, having PVR'd. No one gives a sh*t. They are happy to see you go as it's one less to pay redundancy money to!.

I managed to fill an A4 sheet with reasons why but never had anyone from above come and ask me 'why?', cos so many are PVRing they know all the reasons why.

[TURNBULL]

Guys,

I'm amazed that many of you think you are owed something! You got paid didn't you?

But the biggest flaw is believing there is a 'they' - 'they' don't care, 'they' didn't ask why, etc. The fact is there's a bunch of blokes (and birds) just like you doing their best to get promoted, fill their quota's or get through the next det. The retention and PVR reversal desk at Innsworth is fiction.

:D

[opso]

Whenever I've had one of mine bang in a PVR, the first question I ask them is 'why'. I can't change the RAF for them, I can't get them more money etc, but there may be ways that I can manage or approach their expectations. Part of me doesn't care what their reason for PVRing is, as long as they've thought it through and have a reason. If they don't, I ask them enough questions to prompt them to think about it and get them to come back to me afterwards. I make it clear that if they still want to PVR, fine, but about 10-20% of them rip up their forms and return happily to work, realising that a PVR filed in a fit of picque is something that they would probably regret. I have had plenty of people, still in the Service, come up to me years later and thank me for making them think about it fully as they have stayed, done well and are having the time of their lives.

I consider that sort of handling to be the responsibility of every flt cdr, sqn cdr and stn cdr as they receive a PVR. I do not consider it appropriate or practical for PMA to serve this function - it's usually too late by the time they are involved as a lack of concern by the local command chain just cements the will to leave, regardless of the original reason.

[flipster]

Opso,

I suspect you are in the minority judging by many posters' anger and dismay. However, I was incredibly well dealt with at Cranditz, where I had considerate and supportive Bosses who understood my reasons, then let me go pretty much on my own terms that fitted nicely with the start of the new job. I owe them a pint or 3.

I did fill in some paperwork asking me why I was going but PMA masters were not interested in retaining 17 years worth of flying experience (I disagree - that IS their job too!). However, while my DO was sad to see me go, his Bosses weren't - but that is another story. However, I suspect they are all far too busy wondering how they are going to fill all the staff posts and top-heavy command chain to which we seem to have regressed.

(thinks ......I wonder what is the ratio of Sqns to star-officers?)

The bottom-line is that GW2 continues to cost too much and His Royal Tonyness/Gordon Scrooge want to save money on their costly, non-vote-winning military .........and the most expensive things in the HM Forces are its people. So, as far as the beancounters and promotion-seekers are concerned, the quickest way to reduce costs was lose a few lower-level bods pdq - piece of cake!

Therefore, an increasing PVR rate is a sign of the times. In the meantime, some peeps are holding out for redundancy payouts (bit of a mistake in my book, as there probably isn't much money for that either). Others are staying in to protect their FRI/wait for their options, while many like me are getting out early to beat the rush.

While I was sad to leave many friends behind, I was not sad to dispense with the decaying top-level support.

The grass is always greener but in civ aviation, you generally get what you pay for and the companies have a clear idea where they want to go and how to do it efficiently. Generally, they consider their people a huge asset and have to stick to the rules on working times, extra duties but also pay the going wage.

I'm not sure if THIS business initiative will catch on with the treasury!

EESDL - see you out there, its not so bad!

[BigginAgain]

In the meantime, some peeps are holding out for redundancy payouts (bit of a mistake in my book, as there probably isn't much money for that either).

I thought the details of redundancy payouts had already been announced (sure someone on here said they were laid down in QRs or somewhere). I would be surprised if anyone has applied for redundancy without knowing precisely what they are expecting.

Anyway, my real reason for posting is to make the point that PMA must have an idea what the rates of application are for redundancy. The Service as a whole should be able to guage from these data what the feeling is within the various Trades and Branches. How many of those who are noy successful in their applications for redundancy will immediately submit PVR Applications?

[JessTheDog]

DASA compile periodic statistics on many manning issues, including PVR rate for officers/airmen and by branch/trade group. So the information is there.

[BigginAgain]

JtD

Yes, I appreciate that, but the point was making was that whereas, say, 50 people might PVR, they have applied for redundancy instead, along with another 50 who hadn't seriously considered PVR, but find the terms offered for redundancy attractive. Say 25 from each group are made redundant, the other 50 may well PVR, but these are currently 'hidden' from the stats, and will be until the actually redundancies are announced.

One other thing I've heard here before, and have subsequently confirmed, is that PMA does not count people who were expected to leave as part of their retention stats. Someone who joined for an initial engagement or commission of 8 years (or whatever the current rates are), who leaves after 8 years is not considered a 'retention failure'. From where I sit, I would have thought it was worth examining the rates of change in applications to convert to a PC or seek an extention of service.

BA

[flipster]

BA

I believe the redunacy stuff is being announced bit by bit - I'm not sure they have mentioned large cash payouts for any aircrew yet.

I also believe that one has to apply for redundancy, with the added uncertainty that the board may not agree with you and not to mention the usual lengthy delay while they cogitate!

Otherwise, I think you are right - PMA/DASA DO know the application rate for redundancy/PVR and, as you suggest, I would expect the PVR rate to increase when those who don't get redundacy consider their options (or lack of them).

Is anyone without the chance of promotion going to be daft enough to stay on past their options in the current climate ?

[Didntdoit]

Interesting question, the original one that is. On auto-add for my tuppence worth, which was not PVR, but at 38/16.

Opso is right; it is the responsibility of chain of command. When I decided to jump, my SO1 was surprised, the 1-Star absolutely gutted and the 2-Star asked me why and on hearing the reasons, offered to do this and that. I felt valued and wanted; however, the reasons to pull the handle overrode the temptation to become a special case so I said thanks, but no thanks.

Contrast this with the 'Desk'. The Deskie made no attempt to find out directly from me 'why' and I was in the office with the 1-Star phoned to give the Desk the hot poop on me. He left and the next one in made no attempt either, actually, he made 2 abortive attempts to send me to hot dusty places inside my last year and we eventually settled on me spending 3 months in a Bunker inside my last 9, which cost me money, ultimately. With 3 and a half working months left, the new Desk (yes, the previous did leave on promotion), asked me if anyone had offered me a deferral. Well, I 'left' by then, so it was a tadge late.

I didn't particularly feel that anyone owed me anything, but (ok, all MHO I know), given that I had a good rep, got the job done, was doing very well all things considered and was WFHR, well, I thought that someone at Innsworth would give a damn. TO be honest, that, and some nonsense from the then OC 54 really did convince that it was a good time to exit stage centre and I really have not looked back since.

In sum, if you are still with me, the 'System', in my case, did not, but the Chain of Command saw me right. That's probably par. Oh, and I got a free dinner! :ok:

Keep the faith.

[opso]

Sorry to hear that your off Flip - I'm beginning to get a complex now that an ever increasing number of the people I've been running alongside over the years are off the other (hopefully greener) pastures. I hope the new job works out for you.

A number of the 'hidden' PVRs aren't that hidden. I know people that pushed in their redundancy application only a couple of weeks ago, waited for their boards to sit and (unsighted of the non-ratified result) bunged their PVR in straight after. This is working on the basis that if they have redundancy, the PVR will be ignored and irrelevent, if they haven't got the windfall, they're front of the queue for the exit on PVR terms.

[flipster]

Yep I was sorry too - but weighing up 15 years (to 55) behind a desk at SO2-level versus watching the golden sun pop up over the morning stratus from FL410 was a no-brainer.

There you have it in a nutshell for your average(ish) pilot. We don't like being away from that precious, chosen environment and that one glimpse of dawn that few others see, is worth every penny.

Also, the pay is good, there is no niff naff/ACRs and I get home every night - but there will always be some 'politics'. Most of all, however, I miss the peeps and cameraderie.

[L-H]

When I PVR'd, my Sqn chain of command understood fully my reasons, they counselled me and the Boss even went as far to champion my corner, to no avail. Finally after much dithering on my part I felt that I had made the right decision and notwithstanding my affection for the service firmly believed that the future that lay ahead for me as a SNCO was limited and would end up in frustration. So I left on target. I do not regret it one jot but I will always remember the support I received from my chain of command and their wise counsel, gentlemen to a man.

[EESDL]

Don
Hope all is well!
I don't think people think that they're owed anything (apart from a gratuity!!) just that it would appear that it would be prudent to understand why certain people leave....or then again perhaps not:-)

I certainly don't think i'm 'owed' anything - just the right to sort out my resettlement without the RAF bleating about loyalty etc.
They've shown their 'loyalty' to me on numerous official occasions so I think it balances out.

[BEagle]

"..Oh, and I got a free dinner!"

Which is more than a colleague and I ever did, despite 30+ combined years at the Covert Oxonian Aerodrome!

And my sqn leaving goodies were eventually brought round in a poly bag by a mate. I just hope that no-one else ever suffers such a dismal 'thank you' for all their effort devoted to the cause over the years.

And 'they' wonder why people are queuing up to leave....

[fawkes]

Opso and bEagle make an important point - the "Service" doesn't actually exist. People offer a loyalty to a myth. A very powerful myth and one that sums up shared values and aspirations and all sort of old fashioned and unfashionable things like leadership, duty, honour etc.

All that exists are people. Most trying to do the job they're paid for as well as they can; some actually posessing the qualities of moral courage and humility as well as strength and professionalism - these are real leaders. It is a pity that they are so few.

Nobody ever put in their letter in a fit of pique when they were well led: sober reflection, a better offer, a growing family yes, but resentful betrayal no. In trying to become a "normal employer" and in embracing political correctness (instead of saying that we have a simple code - "do as you would be done by") and in vainly apeing business think we are not encouraging the real leaders. The men (and women) who put their people first and thus inspire the loyalty and achieve extraordinary things because people then believe in themselves and in one another.

The selfish, the insensitive, the sycophantic and the spineless are increasingly evident in the higher ranks because, corporately we are completely intolerant of mistakes and they cannot be risked.
This is the crisi that befalls an organistion that fails to build on its successes and concentrates overmuch on its failures.

When we fall into infatuation, we project much of our own personality, our dreams and fantasies onto the object of our unrequited desire. Having grown up, we fall in love with a real person, faults and all - and also because they love us back. Young men (and women, I suppose) have these romantic notions, and it is the youg who join up.

Having made the mistake of believing the Service exists; I believed that I could be loyal to it, but I am better now. I can be loyal to my subordinates, whether they deserve it or not, ditto my boss. By that I mean that I treat their objectives and their interests as my own. I can only hope (for I cannot demand) the same from them, but that is it. I can only do my best to be true to the memories of better men who wore the uniform (or one like it) before me.

In this Nelson bicentenary year it is well to remember that he may have been a consummate leader, loved by his men and idolised by the British public, but he had a very expensive mistress to support and was also very ambitious and careful of his career: and one in which it was possible to become rich. The RN still drinks a toast to "a bloody war and a sickly season" (and hence quicker promotion). PVR not Walcheron fever is more likely to thin out competitors these days. I worked for a man once who used to cross people out of the List as they were passed over or p*ssed off...

What motivates people most of all is not the hope of reward, but being valued: that their contribution to the effort of the team is worthwhile - and that the effort of the team is to some purpose.

Ultimately we must be defined by what we do, not what we believe, but whilst the Forces don't owe us anything, the myth is very important. It is quite right to suggest that one should put up or push off, but allow those of us who are leaving at least a lament for our lost love.