A few questions (Cardiff procedures)

[tom775257]

Hi there,
I wonder if you could answer a few questions please (IR trainee pilot, approaching IR test)

Regarding Cardiff it is a shame we can’t train there, as it means we can only fly the procedures in the sim, thus not getting a feel for the way ATC deal with you in ‘real life.’
My problem was as follows. Flying in the PA-34 simulator into the CDF hold FL40, QNH 1030. I was given the clearance along the lines of ..’next time over the beacon cleared for ILS/DME approach runway 30, report beacon outbound.’ OK so I have to maintain my assigned FL until beacon outbound. Outbound into the alternate procedure and I set QNH..darnit now at 4,500 altitude and only 5 miles with a tail wind to descend to 1513feet. You can do it but you really need to get the nose down….it is nice to have the aircraft nicely stable at correct altitude before the base turn, rather than trying to manage leveling off/ base turn/ loc and g/s interception, gear, flaps and speed reduction all around a very short period of time while flying asymmetric..
Specifically on the procedural CAT A/B ILS DME RWY 30, if you route to the CDF to hold, what level are you typically cleared for the procedure at, and is it usually with an instruction not to descend before beacon outbound or not.

Also a quick question about terminology: If you are on an NDB procedure with the beacon off the airfield e.g. Exeter, I assume if you leave the hold at the beacon you are “beacon outbound”….fair enough, same as any other procedure. Now you turn inbound to the runway, is the terminology the same as per a ‘normal’ NDB approach. Call base turn complete, and then do you have to call anything to ATC for when you change from tracking a QDM to the beacon to tracking a QDR from the beacon on final?

Many thanks for any help,
Tom
:ok:

[Spitoon]

Very general answers because I'm not familiar with either FF or TE procedures.

In the FF example, I would have said that the clearance you were given - without any other level conditions - permits you to descend in the hold to the initial approach level. Think of it this way - the clearance you've been given is from where you are all the way down to the runway threshold. Without any other contraints it's up to you how you profile the descent (subject to the relevant procedures). BUT, that's my view. Whatever the books say on examples like this, there are varying opinions held by pilots and controllers the world over. If you're not sure and want to check, a quick call requesting confirmation that you can descent to the initial approach level will sort it out. Controllers don't bite - well not often - and much prefer to be asked something like that than suddenly see you dropping toward another aircraft!

As a side issue, the reason that you will often be put into the hold at FL40 or thereabouts is to keep the standard missed approach level clear in case someone goes round (in the worst case, with a radio failure).

As for TE, the only call that you might make - or be asked to make - when you pass over the beacon on final is 'beacon inbound'. I don't think it's an essential or required call but it's a long time since I worked an aerodrome with that configuration. You are more likely to be asked to make such a report if there's no radar because the controller may use it to establish a separation of some sort - although the only one that comes to mind is that he/she may not be permitted to clear an aircraft for take-off if an inbound has passed that point.

Hope this helps and good luck with the test.

[mateyboy]

Loads of time to descend to 1520. Don't panic thats all.Once on the 121, you have already been cleared for procedure, so descend when you've est 121 on the alt proc. If I remember rightly usual height FL30 in the hold. (I might be wrong though, done so many)

[tom775257]

Thanks for the info :D

[nasib]

Although, as you say, Cardiff do not allow instrument training these days, I can give you some historical information.

I have entered the hold at Cardiff as high as FL80 and as low as Altitude 3,500. Generally FL60.

Although you're right that it would be nice to be level at platform altitude before the base turn, it rarely happens at Cardiff or elsewhere for that matter.

Here are some things you can do to help with this. Set the correct power and trim for a rate of descent of say 800'/1000', take a 60 degree intercept inbound to get established early, get as much as you can done outbound (checks, idents, get go round intructions<generally straight ahead altitude 2,500 ft at Cardiff>etc.). Cardiff ATC are (or at least were) pretty good at offering you an extension of the outbound leg if they have kept you high at the start of the approach. If they don't and you perceive you have a problem with losing altitude, ask for an extension outbound.

As far as an off airfield NDB is concerned, the base turn complete call still applies and there is no need for further R/T when you go over the beacon again inbound unless requested by ATC.

Good luck

Nasib

[Turn It Off]

I cant speak for everyone but I've heard several times " Extend outbound as you require". That means u can get yourself well sorted.

Don't panic coz its an exam flight. The exam is just something you have to do, if you weren't ready your instructor wouldn't put you up for it.

TIO

[Spitoon]

" Extend outbound as you require". That means u can get yourself well sorted. Many controllers will offer this option as a way of helping the pilot but just a word of caution. If you extend the approach your are effectively on your own navigation and responsible for your own terrain clearance. I'm only a controller but I have heard that the examiner may take an interest in how you deal with this.

[DFC]

As far as I am concerned, the only times that an approach procedure can be extended outbound is if one is completing a cat A/B procedure and a cat C/D procedure lies further out and has the same height limitations, or if the MSA is at or below the platform altitude. If extending to the cat C/D procedure then that is the limit of how far one can extend.

If ATC has required or you have chosen to start the procedure at well above the published initial height then you should be able to get the height off in the required distance or ATC should offer vectors.

Making an arbitary extension could easily result in CFIT at many places.

When making a non-precision approach there is nothing wrong with being a bit high all the way round until the DA is reached provided that there is not any excessive descent rate, the approach procedures or checks are not in any way rushed and the aircraft at the DA is in a stable position to compete the approach to land. However when making the precision approach the requirement is to capture the glide from below which makes reaching the platform height a bit more critical.

If anyone can explain how an aircraft can maintain the required lateral separation from obstacles after leaving the published procedure then please let me know.

Regards,

DFC

[tom775257]

Thanks for the information.

Is it therefore possible to extend and fly the CAT C/D procedure in a CAT A aircraft so long as you check with ATC?

I tried the CAT A/B procedure again today in the sim, no problems from FL40 – I immediately got the aircraft into a 900ft/min descent once outbound, and it worked out nicely.

Cheers,
Tom.

[nasib]

To answer the question about terrain clearance when extending the outbaound leg(at Cardiff), look at the Radar Vectoring Area Chart. You will see that the altitude of 1600' on that chart (to at least 10 DME in any direction) is within 80' of the platform altitude for the R/W 30 procedure. Clearly this would entail some prior planning on part of the candidate on an IR test.

Unfortunately, to suggest that ATC will provide vectors if they have left you too high is not an acceptable solution to a CAA examiner. If there is no other safe option the candidate will have to go back to beacon and start again.

Clearly the above is only asolution at Cardiff, for R/W 30. In general, I would agree with DFC about terrain seperation and extension of outbound legs of procedures.

Nasib