Looking for best simulation out there

[Kenny Rogers]

I'm a VFR controller considering a move to my local ACC. I'm trying to get my hands on a realistic IFR simulator for learning purposes.

I have tried a program called "ATCC" from www.xavius.com. From what I understand about IFR controlling, this program seems to do a good job. It was written by US enroute controllers. As this program is now 8 years old and incompatible with Windows XP, I am considering the purchase of "London Control" from www.londoncontrol.com. There is another program called "ATC Simulator" but I have my doubts about it's realism.

I have read many reviews of these programs, but the reviews are not written by actual controllers. I could ask my mother to write reviews of these, and she'd probably say they are all dead real.

Any thoughts?

[Scuzi]

In my opinion, London Control is as good as it gets on a standalone PC, especially if you are more interested in UK airspace. I have tried many others and nothing even comes close to the realism of London Control. Well worth the money! :)

[Kenny Rogers]

Thank you for your opinion. I am currently experimenting with the London Control Demo. May I ask, are you a real IFR controller?

I am noticing many differences between the US system and the Canadian system (where I control). Perhaps the UK system is more in line with Canada's system?

In the US-based program "ATCC", I see very few agreements between sectors. Their radar updates only every 12 seconds (for enroute) and targets are indicated by a slash symbol instead of Canada's hexagon targets.

Ken

[Jerricho]

Kenny, there are only some basic similiarities between the UK and Canadian system. Send me a PM with your specific questions.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Kenny... be careful. I have not seen a simulator yet which anywhere near approaches the "real" thing. They can't because it is impossible to feed instructions into the simulator at the sort of speed you need in a busy sector. Heck, even the "real" simulators have trouble coping, and they have proper blip drivers! How do you simulate co-ordination with adjacent ATC units, coordinators and other controllers alongside you? You only hear part of the job on the R/T and there's as much again, if not more, going on in the background.

I had 37 years "IFR" experience, most of the time at Heathrow and the Heathrow sector at London Control, and would advise you that the best approach would be to learn from your instructors when the time comes. By all means get the manuals and mug up on the separation standards, types of airspace and facilities offered by various ATC units, etc., which will be of great help. However, I'm concerned that messing about on a toy simulator without a professional instructor might do more harm than good.

Lastly, a friend of mine was a 747 Captain.. He had great trouble landing the 747 in Flight Sim, yet I could manage it 5 times out of 10 and I've never flown a real plane in my life. On the other hand, he did pretty well with the TRACON ATC sim... and I spent all my time getting airmisses!!!

[Lon More]

HD
I went one better, in the business since 1967, and flying before that, i failed the entrance exam to Vatsim. I never went back

[380]

Kenny,

Sorry, don't want to hijack your thread, but I'm looking for a decent tower simulation. Do you know of any?

[bagpuss lives]

The only VCR simulation I know of is called "BAO Tower" which you can pick up for free, legally, here - http://free-game-downloads.mosw.com/abandonware/pc/simulations/games_t_z/tower.html

In answer to the original quation on this thread by the way - London Control is easily the best sim I've tinkered with, by a long long way.

[Vee One...Rotate]

Kenny Rogers,

There's a much newer verison of ATCC (with speech etc.) than the 8-year old one...and it works fine with my Windows XP.

www.xavius.com like you say.

Regards,

V1R

[Kenny Rogers]

Thanks all!

Ken

[atcea.com]

However, I'm concerned that messing about on a toy simulator without a professional instructor might do more harm than good.

DIRECTOR
I share your concern that someone might, using a sim program, confuse the real world with that of the virtual. Obviously, the computer games do not simulate traffic as well as the simulators we use for instruction at the facilities.

That being said, the Sims do a remarkable job of getting one to "think like a controller." One of the students I recently had in En Route radar class was a gamer. He'd cut his teeth on a simulation of Los Angeles Center Sector 19 - a position I actually worked in the late 70s and early 80s.

I gotta tell you, this kid was good!

He had certainly picked up some fundamental skills from the game. He'd been introduced to these simulations in his CTI school here in Puerto Rico - CTI is a college program for prospective controllers - and there was enough supervision to make the training worthwhile.

So, I guess my belief is that, by themselves, who knows the value of these things; but with just a bit of supervision, they can be valuable training tools.

ATC 24/7 (http://atcea.com)

[bagpuss lives]

I think realistic sims, like London Control, offer a taste of, and the chance to practice the spatial awareness needed to succeed at the very very least, and that can't be a bad thing at all can it?

[Kenny Rogers]

It would be dangerous for an ATC gamer to walk into a real-life ACC believing they "knew everything", believing the job was easy, and believing they could move planes with the best of 'em.

I'd like to get my hands on these simulations mainly to feed my thirst for the real thing, and hopefully to gain insight into the IFR world. The grey areas of the VFR world make me crazy sometimes, and I believe I may be better suited to IFR. I've been told many times that IFR and VFR are two completely different jobs that require a different talent altogether.

I think I'd do better at a job where the rules are more clear (not that IFR doesn't have it's grey areas).

Ken

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I'm not denying that some interest might be derived from "toy" simulators but how can a $50 PC game approach a real sim costing a million dollars when even the real one doesn't work?! (I don't mean the term "toy" to be derogatory, just to distinguish from the type pf sims we all see at work).

Just think what happens when you're controlling.. The first thing is you don't send instructions by using a keyboard or a mouse. I've met plenty of trainees who could sit behind a briefing table and tell me exactly what was to be done... yet put a headset on them and they fell apart. The graphics provided by some of the PC sims are exceptionally good - difficult to tell from the real thing - but that's not the whole job. Think of the atmosphere in the control room, the other people around you - some rushing up to you with important information and all and all.... phones ringing and a million other things which make up the "real" job and which a PC sim on your dining room table simply cannot do.

Fact is, a guy could be a real genius using one of the sims, but a total failure on the real thing.. and that's what I wanted to bring home to Kenny.

[trafficcontrol]

Hi, i have to say London Control is amazing, i did work experiance at west Drayton, in november and i can say in my opinion the only thing missing in london control is the actualy environment and the strips! The only un realistic thing about london control is the other sectors not being handeled as they should because its a computer. XAVIUS is good and gave me a insite last year but i have to say this kicks it off the wall. And.....I get to control the airspace right above my house. good old Bovingdon!

also , i didnt mention that i got to go on West drayton\'s simulators and from my knowledge of London Control helped alot in how the airsapce i was controlling worked. I can admit, the sim was a little easier but it gave the knowledge i think needed to get into the right frame of mind. It was Heathrow South i was working, brill!

[GroundBound]

Have a look at users.skynet.be/atcsim/ .

You can create your own areas and exercises, play with the coolurs, define maps etc.

It supports RVSM (even before RVSM was introduced).

Its being used by training organistions around the world - and its free!

GB

[Milan N]

http://free-game-downloads.mosw.com..._t_z/tower.html
This links is not free.
$4 for day period.

[Phoenix_X]

This is terminal control, but have a look at this:

Simon Simulation Software (http://atc.flygsimulator.se).

It's still got some parts that are a bit unrealistic, but it supports voice control and it's the first sim with voice control that actually works really, really well!

[bagpuss lives]

Sorry, best I could find I'm afraid.

And $4 isn't much for a game that originally cost £50! :)

[Milan N]

Sorry but $4 is money for me as my salary $300 per month. Would someone help my. With best regards.
[email protected] :{

[StephenM_SMC]

Just a thought,
What about the Virtual Airtraffic networks out there? Like VATSIM, I am an avid Flight Simulator fan, and I am also a Virtual ATCO for VATeir (Ireland), the Radar equipment is quite good, but how realistic it is, is another question. There is full voice available for all those with mike's. Enclosed is a pic of tonight. There was an event on at EIDW, but my pic was too big for my favourite forum! We had an ATCO for EISN CTR, EIDW APP, TWR and GND and myself as EINN TWR, later I was at EIKN TWR, my local airfield.
http://www.ifsd.ie/forum/uploads/Spud/2004121221253_atc_p3.PNG

For more information go to:
Irish Flight Sim Scenery Design (http://www.ifsd.ie/)
VATeir (Irish VACC) (http://www.vateir.net/)
VATSIM (Virtual ATC Simulation) (http://www.vatsim.net/)
EDITED: Typos and slight text change.

[TrafficTraffic]

...thought thats what the CLN sectors did 24/7 - 365

[bagpuss lives]

No, that's virtually ATC.

Almost...but not quite.....

[StephenM_SMC]

Ok, just a suggestion!:ok:

[bagpuss lives]

Sorry Stephen I was replying to TrafficTraffic, not you :)

I've had a little to do with some people from VATSIM in the past and I've always found them to be a good and very enthusiastic bunch.

Greetings to a fellow celt too :ok:

Maybe......

[Ronaldsway Radar]

Heya,

I was also looking for a good ATC Sim, reading the previous posts, I think i will stick to VATSIM, it may not be 100% correct, but it's close enough! I also have ATC Simulator, which is for US Tracons only, and even with speech recognition, not that good. It certainly gives you a challenge on DFW App though, and if your not a fast typer...dont try it!
RR

[bagpuss lives]

As I said earlier, you will not find a better simulation in every way, of real UK ATC Ops than London Control :ok: