Luton Zone Transit

[SteveR]

I'm planning a VFR flight from Rochester to Coventry on Good Friday afternoon, back on Sunday lunchtime.

There are *some* who've told me otherwise, but most of the peeps I've talked to have told me that I'll never, ever, ever get an SVFR Zone transit across Luton. I'll just be told "no", and have to route round the SW corner.

I believe I increase my chances if I'm mode charlie equipped?, if my historic track demonstrates precision?, and if I sound like I know what I'm doing on my initial call?

Any other hints? There's a corridor marked on the chart, at nearly 90 degrees to my track - do I need to be lined up with that before having the temerity to ask?, or will 10nm out on the desired track be OK?

Steve R

[2Donkeys]

A few thoughts:

Luton airspace is only class D. You can transit it VFR (not just SVFR) unless the weather dictates otherwise. If you are IMC or Instrument Rated you can even transit under IFR in IMC.

The Entry/Exit corridor (marked E/E) that runs through the zone is largely irrelevant now. It is a throwback to the days when Luton was a combined SRA and CTZ - before the likes of class A-G airspace was invented :)

Transits are not normally a problem. They are usually granted via the overhead, routing over the touchdown threshold.

I would guess that being transponder equiped would help ease your path, although I doubt that having mode C or not would make any big difference.

Final thought. How many track miles would it add to your journey to avoid the zone altogether and route at 2400 (or below) up the sizeable gap between Luton and Stansted's zones. Now that the missed approach procedures at Luton have been changed, transits do appear to be a little more tricky, and if staying outside Luton's airspace is an option, it might be preferable to all concerned.

-2Donkeys

[NorthernSky]

I had a funny experience with Luton a few weeks back.....

I was ferrying a swift and exciting light single to Biggin, and called Luton for RIS - knowing they were not in the habit of giving it, but thinking that as the weather wasn't too good, I might hit lucky.

The controller asked me if I would like to route direct BPK, thus taking me through the zone (though I had planned to remain outside and had told him as much). Agreeing to this, he then explained that as I was now zone transit traffic he would be able to give me RIS!!

A swift number-crunch on the KLN90B, and I was on my way.

Must be something to do with their being paid for handling transit traffic and not ATSOCA customers.

The fact that I screwed up and accidentally used my employer's callsign at one stage may have brought sympathy, too.

[2Donkeys]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">
Must be something to do with their being paid for handling transit traffic and not ATSOCA customers.
</font>

That and the fact that they formally withdrew from LARS a short while ago, once NATS got its hands on them.

Strange that.

I wonder if their new-found reluctance to talk to local GA will result in their zone infringement rate going up to the same levels as the neighbours to the east. ;)

-2Donkeys

[Bright-Ling]

Good point 2 donkeys.

Before long, Farnborough LARS will no doubt be withdrawn due lack of funds. Could be interesting - as 'infringers' will be infringing the ATZ as there is no CAS surrounding it!

Glad I don't own a G4/BBJ etc. Scary times........all it takes is one small incident.

[OrsonCart]

Luton no longer offers LARS as its income is miniscule compared to the resources required to provide the service.

Zone transits are now very difficult. The standard missed approach proc is to 3000ft, when it was to 2000ft Luton could safely allow VFR to transit overhead via the landing turning circle. This change was to assist the commercial operators in the event of a go around.

To our pilot friend, you may get a VFR transit. If I was you, I would plan to route BPK-BNN-DTY which is not too far off route, call 125.55 early and ask for a more direct routing through the zone.

[2Donkeys]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">
call 125.55 early and ask for a more direct routing through the zone
</font>
Or alternatively, try 129.55 if it is Luton you want to talk to. :)

-2Donkeys

[Rad1]

But Orson, so what if the missed approach goes to 3000'? What's wrong with passing traffic info between VFR and IFR and letting it all happen (within reason)? Or telling the VFR to route to pass behind one on approach? Isn't that the joy of Class D?

[granny smith]

Rad 1

Hear hear, there's far too much overcontrolling of VFR flights. We seem to have collectively forgotten the rules - licence protection noted!

[SteveR]

I don't like to ask a question and run, so thanks a lot for the replies.

I don't have a problem with going round. I think if I have to, I'd prefer the S.W corner - but I'll probably decide on the day to go towards wherever the weather is coming from.

I still want to go over tho', so I'll ask nicely and see.....

Steve R

[gul dukat]

What's wrong with traffic information ?? for my tuppence worth it seems if someone is going around with a large increase in cockpit work load the last thing the guys need is to be told of some sunday spam can driver in his twelve o'clock .The name of the game is to provide a service to all airspace users and whilst this is perfectly legal I feel that MORALLY we as CONTROLLERS should take some positive control over the situation ....stay away from busy airfields if all you want to do is take a look !!!

------------------
"earth is full ....go home "

[2Donkeys]

Well that last post confused me:

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">
if someone is going around with a large increase in cockpit work load the last thing the guys need is to be told of some sunday spam can driver in his twelve o'clock .</font>
So you think perhaps that Luton should be class A? Or did I misunderstand?
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">
The name of the game is to provide a service to all airspace users
</font>
...erm. No, I'm wrong. You are happy with things the way they are.
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">
and whilst this is perfectly legal I feel that MORALLY we as CONTROLLERS should take some positive control over the situation ....
</font>
Such as... what are you suggesting in addition to areas like Luton being Class D?
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">
stay away from busy airfields if all you want to do is take a look !!!
</font>
.. or if you wish to transit their zones(?).

The effect of the decline in LARS and the increased reluctance of NATS fields to offer zone transits is a situation in which light GA is funnelled into densely packed little corridors in which nobody is able/willing to offer any kind of *effective* traffic information.

Does your first quote (above) apply to those hard pressed pilots too, or just to those of us flying IFR into large airfields.

-2Donkeys

[BombBay]

http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif Steve, as you well know, Good Friday is also a Bank Holiday, therefore, as anyone who flies in the UK will know, the weather will be crap.
Stick to the garden centre, (where you might get a better service http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif - only joking!).

[Warped Factor]

gul dukat,

I take it you're a dyed in the wool Essex atco with that attitude?

WF.

[dde0apb]

Hold on Gul Dukat: is your Cardassian handle deliberate? Certainly sounds like it. ;)

Sure, you have a duty of care to aircraft under your control, and people who want to wander in to "your" airspace to have a look and then wander out again might be a pain, BUT:

DAP has decreed that Luton shall have Class D, and this is based on an assessment of the needs of the airspace. And it is Class D because DAP thinks it does not need to be Class A. This means that while traffic using CTR/CTA for an arrival or departure must have priority in terms of access to the airspace, since it has no option but to use it, it does not mean that other traffic has no rights of use.

If you can not accept a zone transit then this must surely be for one of only three reasons:

1. There is traffic already in, or due to be in, the space where the transitting traffic wants to be: ie the airspace is full. No sensible person would expect a transit in those circumstances since collisions / airproxes are not in anyone's interest

or

2. You have not got enough controllers to control the airspace, so that while the space is not actually full, it is nevertheless unsafe for any more planes to be in that area since they can not be adequately controlled. This is an economic problem which the airspace control contractor must deal with, and over which DAP has / will have regulatory powers.

or

3. There is a risk that IFR traffic will have to go round, so overhead transits will not be granted. This seems to be overprotection of the airspace. By the same token you would not allow all sorts of other actions in case there was an IFR arrival or departure.

And where in the ANO does it say that IFR traffic has a higher priority than VFR traffic?

Just my 2p worth

[This message has been edited by dde0apb (edited 05 April 2001).]

[HounslowHarry]

2Donkeys
You Wrote

quote:
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The effect of the decline in LARS and the increased reluctance of NATS fields to offer zone transits is a situation in which light GA is funnelled into densely packed little corridors in which nobody is able/willing to offer any kind of *effective* traffic information...................

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Don't you think that if GA and those operating outside the charging mechanisms were to pay for the service they might get an effective service.

This is the year 2001 for goodness sake. Why should NATS or taxpayers or passengers subsidise GA pilots. GA Pilots have plenty of dosh after all!!

NATS is no longer a charitable exercise.

HH (PS Make it Controlled airspace all class A!)

[dde0apb]

No one suggested NATS was a charitable exercise. GA pilots do not always have lots of money (especially not after flying :) )

Seriously, Luton LARS for example provided a service which made the whole of that area safer for everyone, IFR in CAS through to VFR receiving ATSOCAS. Is it any coincidence that one of the highest number of airspace incursions occur in the Class D CTR which is the most difficult to get a zone transit?

Remember too that IFR jocks in their 737s pay almost no tax on aviation fuel, whereas us petrol heads pay around about £2.50 per gallon tax; that's £20 an hour even for a PA28. Doing 100kts that's 20p per mile. How much are IFR en-route charges?

So we do pay, it's just that the tax we pay does not go back into aviation http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif

[2Donkeys]

HH:
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Don't you think that if GA and those operating outside the charging mechanisms were to pay for the service they might get an effective service.</font>

Totally agree. Of course, those of us who are over 2 tonnes do pay already - often despite the total absence of service. I am keen to understand what benefit I derive for the £50 it costs me to cross the country outside controlled airspace...In the south-east at least, it is getting increasingly hard to find anybody that will talk to me, unless I file airways.

Do you reckon that being over 2 tonnes (and therefore paying) will make a difference next time I ask Essex Radar for any kind of service at all... I'm looking forward to giving it a go ;)

-2Donkeys

[Warped Factor]

HH,

I think you are on a sticky wicket when it comes to charges for GA due to the reasons pointed out by 2Donkeys and dde0apb. If I were in 2Donkeys position and having to pay route charges for flights where every unit I spoke to told me there was no service available, I would be a tad more annoyed than 2Donkeys seems to be.

Whether through route charges or taxation, GA does for the most part contribute.

Don't forget why we are down here. It is to provide a service to those up there, whether they are a PA28 or a B747.

Unfortunately there seems to be an attitude pervading through NATS, at least in the SE, that if it is not an airliner it doesn't qualify for any level of service irrespective of traffic levels at the time.

As professionals we should all try to offer a professional service to all users. But sadly, given the attitude of some of my colleagues in the TC Ops room, I think I am fighting a losing battle on this one.

WF.

[Dan Dare]

Warped Factor, couldn't agree more! Its a losing battle, but keep fighting.

[Rad1]

Ditto Dan Dare - it sometimes seems that some companies that do ATC have forgotten what it's all about and become obsessed with trying to be business men - and I wonder how long they'd stay in business in the real world.

[Flybywyre]

SteveR...........

Why don't you catch the train?

Regards
FBW

[SteveR]

cos' , with our fab air traffic controllers, I feel safer in the air?

Steve (flying in the face of statistics) R

[Cahlibahn]

I have discerned little change to Luton's willingness to provide a service to transitting aircraft since they became part of NATS. The one factor which causes problems is the missed approach going to 3000'. In your situation I would plan BPK - Luton overhead - DTY with an alternate plan to go north from BPK by about 15nm then direct Coventry if zone transit is denied. (That does take you through Cranfield's IAP so be at an appropriate level and talking to them. Plan B only adds 4 minutes or so to the trip time. BTW SVFR is neither necessary nor desirable if wx pemits VFR.

edited to add bit about SVFR

[This message has been edited by Cahlibahn (edited 07 April 2001).]

[2Donkeys]

Great advice there Cahlibahn.

On one small point though, there isn't really a good level to go throught the IAP at Cranfield. The holding pattern can be active from 2500' all the way up to the base of controlled airspace. It often is on a weekday too. Best talk to 122.85, even if you think you will be well clear. They are always pleased to hear from you and will help.

-2Donkeys

[OrsonCart]

As I said before, plan BPK-BNN-DTY ask for a transit and see what happens?

Keeps you well clear of Cranfield holding and approach area.

[Cahlibahn]

2Donkeys - I figured Good Friday would be quiet at Cranfield (at least as far as Cabair were concerned)- what is it that assumptions make me? OK, for plan B go north from BPK by 18 miles (or more) before going direct Coventry. That better?

Orsoncart - why BNN; why not DCT BPK DTY?