Persons on Board

[BEXIL160]

Okay folks, a subject close to my heart and NOTHING to do with NERC, PPP, or anything political.

The question is this: Why do we pester aircrews for POB whenever any emergency is declared?

The usual answer is that the fire and rescue services need it. Not so. At least according to the Station officer that I spoke to at Gatwick. He tells me that they IGNORE any info they recieve about POB because it's probably wrong and they prefer to go by the maximum capicity of the a/c involved (they have "look up cards").

Two scenarios. A) The a/c crashes and burns, in which case you've got all day to count bodies. B) The a/c survives the crash and the fire services have to enter what's left of the cabin. They aren't going to have time to count those that have escaped the wreck and will enter the cabin and attempt to resuce anybody that is still there. Reported POB is irrelevant at this crucial stage.

My concern is this. Asking an already pressured crew about POB does little to help them. You may well interupt a vital checklist. You may well cause a distraction and end up with the wrong info anyway. I'm not sure that we should automatically demand POB "just 'cos it says so on the card".

BTW a/c that fly into Heathrow and Gatwick (and probably other major airports) are REQUIRED to nominate a handling agent, who will have the POB, should the info be required for a subsequent body count.

Discuss...... (p.s. NO, this does not count for your ECT this year)

[5milesbaby]

Bexil, I think its just the norm that we have all got used to, but I agree that these days the info can be obtained from elsewhere. One circumstance that I think is a good time to ask is when an a/c is ditching at sea. Providing it goes 'swimmingly' and people get out, then S&R know how many to expect to pull out of the dingies. Don't forget though, not all accidents are attended by Aviation Fire Crews, so all information can be helpful.

[eyeinthesky]

Couldn't agree more. In my opinion the request for POB is a hang over from the military, where they want to know how many parachutes/dinghies to look for. The last thing a crew want when they've had explosive decompression and the cockpit looks like a paper recycling plant is some idiot asking them to find the loadsheet and tell them how many POB.

Like many things in our business, ECT is driven by a kneejerk reaction to incidents (the BA 111 being the start point, I believe) and devised to keep SRG happy. There seems to be very little dialogue with airlines about what they require.

Another thing is the number of time on these videos they show when some bloke has had a problem and requests a diversion/return and they are told to resume own nav to X. For fox's sake why can't you just give them a heading until they've got themselves sorted out?

And squawk 7700.If he's remaining in CAS why bother with that? The computer loses the ident and D&D start pestering you..



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"Take-off is optional, Landing is mandatory"

[BEXIL160]

...5milesbaby... You're up early, thanks for the quick reply :)

Yes, I should add to my original post I'm not talking about light aircraft, when I agree it's a good idea to get the POB and easy for the pilot to find out (just turn your head, Brian).

As for ditching, doen't the Air Pilot suggest that filing a Flight Plan is a good idea if you're going to fly over the oggin? As to how you get the POB off the form in a hurry, that's another thing.

I'm curious though. Does anybody know when the last SUCCESSFUL large airliner ditching occurred? I have (dim) memories of a DC3 off the coast of Le Touquet and maybe a Stratocruiser (ahhhh) in the Atlantic. Flying boats don't count.

Rgds
BEX

[BEXIL160]

...eyeinthe sky...

A7700 I can see the point of, at least intially as it draws everybodies attention to the a/c. With all the vertical sector boundaries we have it cound be useful... Imagine the decompression senario, "look out below I'm coming down fast!" No need for hasty phone calls. Well, not right away.

The downside is the inevitable phone calls from D&D (splendid chaps... no, really) and the world and his wife, and the desk. Hopefully the CSC or Planner will fend them off.

Agreed also "Own NAV" is Not always a good idea, but thats the point of ECT isn't it? So we can learn from other peoples experiences. Actually I rather think that ECT is a very GOOD THING, particularly nowadays that many younger ATCOs don't have the slightest idea what may be happening on the Flight Deck. (Not their fault, there is no time for Fam Flights anymore)

It would be good too see a few line pilots coming to ATCUs to see the other side of the coin as well. In the age of TRM, CRM etc etc ATC is a "resource" to the crew, especially in an emergency situation.

[This message has been edited by BEXIL160 (edited 03 April 2001).]

[Spotter]

Memories are short in this business sometimes. No-one remember the C-130 that crashed at a mil airfield & many died because the fire service thought it was a cargo flight & so didn't feel it was worth the risk to themselves to enter the burning wreckage after the crew were accounted for?

As for ditching at sea, a hijacked Ethiopian Boeing 767 was forced to ditch about 4/5 years ago after running out of fuel. The hijackers refused to believe the pilots that they could fly no further. The pilots did a heroic job, and about half the pax survived. Maybe would have been even higher but for the flight crew being attacked by the hijackers just before touchdown.

A Boeing 707 also ditched into Lake Victoria last year, apparently unintentioally. The ATCO told the pilot he was too low on a visual approach. The crew replied don't worry I know what I'm doing, just before the aircraft hit the water. Amazingly the structure of the aircraft stood up extremely well.

[Hew Jampton]

Requesting the POB for an aircraft in distress (which traditionally changed to 'Souls On Board' for an emergency) is presumably of great help to designated hospitals and their major disaster procedure implementation. Is it a fully laden 747 or just a couple of crew on a training /ferry flight?

It shouldn't be necessary to hunt for the loadsheet; a prudent pilot will have written the POB (crew + pax)on the nav log for just this scenario. Under international rules, the crew is also required to advise AFS via ATC of any Dangerous Goods on board.

I think a 727 ditched in the Caribbean twenty-odd years ago; I don't have any details. Also (I think)a Nimrod in Scotland and another one in the USA during a display, although this last one wasn't a controlled ditching.

[This message has been edited by Hew Jampton (edited 03 April 2001).]

[eyeinthesky]

BEXIL160:

Going off slightly on a tangent...

Fam Flights Etc: How right you are that there is not enough understanding amongst some ATCOs of the flight deck situation. I have believed for a long time that there should be a better exchange of experience between the two sides of the air transport industry. As it is, Fam flights are used by many as an excuse for a piss up in sunny climes (nothing wrong with that in itself..) and we are left to organise them ourselves. When we do get one, we turn up at the airport and are treated like sh*t by check in, dispatchers and so on "Hold on, I'll just see if the Captain will accept you..".The Captain of course has no idea that we're coming. If we're lucky we might get up on the flight deck just before push back. We should be there for briefing etc so you've got time to understand what's going on. The departure phase is far too busy. There should be some way of ensuring that you get the info you need, so that you become part of the crew for the flight. As it is we get standby tickets and have to make our own arrangements. It's not surprising not many people (other than the piss artists!) bother. Compare that with when airlines come to visit LATCC. Met at the gate, given a tour, lunch, sometimes a go on the sim, and generally treated as fellow professionals.

Maybe now they are part owners of us it will be easier. What if we were to attend some of their ECT (although I imagine the victims on their base checks would not be too happy)? Sorry about the rant: just another example of the half-arsed way our company does things. :mad:

Getting back to the original question: There are of course cases when you might like to know how many lifejackets to pull out of the sea, but a hydraulic problem or a cracked windscreen are not really those times.



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"Take-off is optional, Landing is mandatory"

[BEXIL160]

Thank You Spotter and Hew, all useful stuff that adds to the debate. Which is what I set out to stimulate.

Yes, I do remember the C130 accident. As I recall it was in Belgium or The Netherlands and the a/c was carrying the unfortunate members of a military band. I still can't see this as a justification for requesting the POB. One, Civil RFS don't work on assumptions of POB, they assume the worst and Two, Military RFS are unlikely to make the same error twice (or are they?)

Professional Flight Crews may well have the POB (pax + Crew) written somewhere handy, but not all do. The question is this. Since the POB info is of dubious value is it worth asking the crew for it when ATC could easily interupt something REALLY important, like emergency checklists. You know what it's like being interupted mid task, and in the heighened (apologies) atmosphere of an emergency situation do the flight crew need further distractions?

Thanks again for the replies, all info is useful.

BEX

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I recall asking for SOB during my early career but it must be over a hundred years since I asked an aircraft in an emergency situation for SOB... Have I neglected my duty over the years? (Psss Don't tell my LCE).

[BEXIL160]

....eyeinthesky...

You may go off at a tangent any time you please.... I often used to suffer from Tangenital fade, but I'm okay now :) :)

I agree wholeheartedly with you on the Fam Flights issue.

BEX

[DeltaTango]

Iagree with you 5miles.....It might be a good idea to review a few of the "old rules" now hat things have changed "slightly" since they were written in the 50's.

Another thing is-what's ETC?

[BEXIL160]

Sorry DT (and everyone else), another aviation acronym:

ECT = Emergency Continuation Training.

Terminal Control training are about to "rename" ECT into something about "unusual circumstances" but I can't rememember exactly what they're gonna call it.

BEX

[Spoonbill]

One recent incident sticks in the mind;
Scheduled operator inbound reports a flight deck fire warning indication in the front baggage hold. Emergency procedures followed, I ask SOB, pilot says 54.
Colleague in the VCR handling telephones etc informs the handling agent, who says that there are 45 SOB.
A/c is now on final, and I know the flight deck work rate is very high, the last thing I want to do is distarct the crew. Additionally, I am very busy reorganising other traffic.
Meanwhile, the RFF and emergency services are screaming for the correct information.
Given that the crew are very experienced and with a major airline who's CRM and emergency training I am familier with, I believe the crew.
The handling agent insists that the info they have is correct.
A/c lands and is evacuated, total SOB turns out to be 60 - the crew forgot to inculde themselves!
The handling agents paperwork had got wet, when dried out, the numbers were virtually unreadable, and the ground staff had mis read what they 'assumed' to be genuine information.
Both the airline and agent are revising their procedures, but that still doesnt mean we're going to get it completely right next time.

:) Incidentlly, some years ago, I was attending a table top emergency exercise, and was severely berated by a Seik gentleman who represented one of the airlines, for using the term SOB, it should be POB he said, because dogs and cats have souls. Now you know. ;)

[Odi]

Up here we ask all the helicopters for their POB on lifting from a rig. This is because of the hostility of the area they might go down in and also because it will vary everytime - especially if they are doing a lot of inter-rig shuttling. By asking for the info on lift it saves us having to ask the pilots when, as was pointed out on earlier posts, they really don't want to be interupted.

[Dan Dare]

Handling agent recently reported "people on board - none" for the flight plan. They hadn't considered that pilots sometimes also fit into the subgroup people. Pilots forget to count themselves. It seems that SOB from ANY source must be treated with a large portion of salt.

I expect that SOB is useful guideline since the handling agent may be impossible to contact (what's new?) or non existent.

I expect that this is a useful discussion for TRaining in Unusual Circumstances and Emergencies (TRUCE) when it replaces ECT.

[Heading 365]

Crews should use 7700 on any rapid descent otherwise the emergency could be invisible because of height filters etc or backgound when we get to NERC. A lot of airlines have it as one of the later things on checklists.

[BEXIL160]

More thank you's for the input.

ODI... Yes, I spent some time at EGPD a lonnnng time ago and I understand the need for the helicopters POB, and the fact that it can alter between the rigs. All the crews know the procedure and why, so no problem.

Dan Dare (sadly missed).... Hmmmm, I'm an ATCO and sometime pilot. I wonder which sub-sub group I fit into??? :) Don't all post at once!

Any more ATPLs out there? I'd really like to KNOW what you think about ATC pestering you about POB (SOB if you prefer) when you are trying to get on top of the aeroplane, when thngs aren't going exactly to plan.

Thanks BEX



[This message has been edited by BEXIL160 (edited 03 April 2001).]

[3rd Runway]

When I went through training as a military ATCO, we used to have to pass the Missed Approach procedure to all emergency aircraft diverting to our airfield, even if they were flamed out!!! Needless to say, that rule was changed.
However, having suffered a board of enquiry where the ac had been prenoted as one POB (there were actually two and one did not eject), frankly, I would always ask the question if I thought the pilot had the time and capacity to respond. Surely common sense dictates and we should judge each situation as it arises.

[fragul]

Bexil et al - ECT to become TRUCE methinks....

Training ??? unusual circumstances & emergencies. Another coup for the silly acronyms dept.
Maybe Training Revising Unexpected & Strange Situations might be better ? :-)

[BEXIL160]

Not keen on acronyms, but loved this one from the '70s:

BOGSAT = Bunch Of Guys, Sitting Around Talking.

= Table top exercise (apologies to the Girls)

BEX

[Lon More]

Re the C130;
it was at Eindhoven in the Netherlands.
Both the controller and chief fire officer were found guilty of dereliction of duty.

[Hairy Growler]

eyeinthesky

We CAN go on airlines ECT. I went a couple of years ago with Air2000 on their 767 sim at Gatwick. OK it was not an official trip, but it was well organised and they made me feel very welcome, including me in the pre briefings and the post incident discussions. I cant remember now who organises the trips, but ask around, it is someone in TC I think.