NATS to provide at Lulsgate [Archive]

Chilli Monster

1st Dec 2004, 08:22

Don't Cardiff and Bristol control Filton's airways departures anyway?
Not all, and not always. Northbounds stay with Filton, as can eastbounds if Bristol have nothing to affect. Westbounds tend to stay with Filton until clear of other traffic and then transferred to Cardiff.
More airspace for Bristol couldn't come soon enough.
Bear in mind there are other airspace users. Much as the Commercial operators want more CAS around that area there's also a heavy training commitment by a lot of the Commercial schools (Oxford etc) to airfields in the area (EGTG/EGBJ mainly). Any CAS allocation will have to take the impact on that into account.

Of course - once it's all sorted it'll all change again when the new ICAO 3 airspace classifications take over ;)

slotbuster

1st Dec 2004, 08:29

I understand that if NATS get Bristol, a combined unit will definately be there - apparently thats part of the terms of the contract that NATS are discussing with the Bristol management.

Looks like quite a plum posting for NATS ATCOs, a great place to live and work with good access to the holiday spots of the south west!

Easy Life

1st Dec 2004, 08:38

a combined unit sounds a great idea, in the meantime can I ask if at all possible that we be transferred to the next unit along (London if outbound, Bristol if inbound) if there's no traffic to effect, workload permits and you have radar cover to monitor us. The old system was so much better!

flower

1st Dec 2004, 09:03

Easy Life, Cardiff is performing a function for London Ie Delegated airspace, thus when talking to Cardiff you are talking to a "London" sector.
Personally as soon as you are clean of other traffic and no longer likely to be a confliction I hand you straight to the next frequency.
A lot of work has gone on of late stream lining the procedures reducing co-ordination between the units, this may not be apparent to the flight crews but it has freed up a considerable amount of workload and increased capacity and reduced flow restrictions on the sector. The "old way" you refer to was not better at all.

As I said do not think for one minute that a combined unit is going to Bristol, the bean counters will decide where it goes and on paper Bristol is certainly not the cheaper option far from it. Of course we are assuming it will go to one or the other but there is also another place it can go to on the South Coast. Having lived in both city's I can also assure you quality of life is infinitely superior West of the Bridge.

This is all jumping the gun, as yet no contract has been announced and although a good proportion of the Lulsgate staff I have talked to are happy with the NATS proposal there are some who are not, to talk about combining the units when an announcement has yet to be made is unfair on those who are currently feeling uncertain of their future.

Dan Dare

1st Dec 2004, 09:14

Easy life,

that's a principle that controllers the world over use. Each aircraft is a hot potato, and if there is nothing to affect, then it will be passed to the next controller along the line (until there is no-one left to pass it to) just in case they happen to call Mayday;)

If you are being kept on a quiet frequency I can assure you that it is not for the controller's benefit.

Easy Life

1st Dec 2004, 10:44

They warned me about entering the lions den that is ATC!

I understand the principle of being transferred from sector to sector along a route including between approach units and enroute, what I was referring to is that sometimes it seems unecessary for Bristol to transfer aircraft to Cardiff for a short period of time without any further instructions being passed (and seemingly no one else on frequency) only to then be transferred on to London. Why can't Bristol keep hold of the outbound slightly longer and then transfer it directly to London?

Gonzo

1st Dec 2004, 11:56

Easy,

I know next to nothing aboutthe airspace around Bristol and Cardiff, but here's a basic view:

You usually talk to Bristol, then Cardiff, then London...correct?

Now, for you to go straight from talking to Bristol to talking to London, Bristol ATCO has to phone Cardiff ATCO and ask for permission to go straight to London, and if there is anything to affect. In the meantime, what happens if London want you at a different level?.....They know that they usually get you from Cardiff, so the London ATCO talks to Cardiff, who he assumes you're talking to, to co-ordinate, but Cardiff says that, no, Bristol are still speaking to you. So London ATCO phones Bristol ATCO to co-ordiante.

ATC standing agreements are based on the fact that each ATCO knows to whom all the a/c in neighbouring airspace are talking to, in case he or she needs to co-ordniate.

Three or more phone calls and three-way co-ordination can all get a bit messy when the ATCO is busy (not neccessarily co-incident with the frequency being busy).

flower

1st Dec 2004, 11:58

Because the airspace that you are transiting through is delegated to Cardiff not Bristol.
The procedures off RWY27 mean you get climbed to FL60 we then do the climb up to the next standing agreed level, procedures off RWY09 allow for you to be climbed up to the next standing agreed level however you are in confliction with multitudes of traffic coming from multiple directions.
You are also only hearing one frequency they are other frequencies operating against which you may have conflicting traffic.Cardiff is integrating traffic from a number of airfields not just Bristol into a stream of traffic spaced for the next sector, A considerable number of Military crossers transit that airspace, we have Filton traffic which is operating on Filtons frequency which we give cleared flight paths too.
What may seem a quiet sector is far from it.
The system works and particularly off RWY 27 works exceptionally well.
Can you imagine yourself asking the same question on one of the London TMA frequencies, stop thinking of it as Cardiff and start thinking of it as the next enroute frequency then it should make more sense to you.

( had to have a bit of a giggle when I discovered that some call us the Cardiff TRACON, all in fun of course but not that far from the truth)

Gonzo,
what you have written is how it used to work and yes it was a nightmare at times, tying down the procedures to the ones we have has increased the flow of traffic through the sector and made it a lot safer.
When the additional delegated function was done it was not produced in isolation, neither were the procedures to which we now adhere.
Bristol ATC management were fully involved at all stages. As a unit we work very closely with them, I personally would be delighted to see them Join NATS.

Avalon

1st Dec 2004, 16:28

Easy Life

I'm afraid logic and an easy life is far from the minds of airspace management people and you can forget about the customer (You) having any bearing on the matter. A heavy dose of local politics is also involved in this mix up............. hence the pointless frequent frequency changes. Hopefully this will be cleared up when there is more controlled airspace and a joint radar unit in this area.

Cardiff Tracon Flower?? And how many of you at EGFF hold ATC Area Ratings to provide this function for LACC? :confused:

Easy Life

1st Dec 2004, 18:25

OK so as a customer perhaps Im not fortunate enough to have any input into air traffic management and there are specialists who must design the procedures to handle increasing traffic levels.

I do agree that some of the frequency changes are pointless as its easy to get a picture of what is going on by just listening to a frequency and as I understand Bristol can 'see' well out beyond Brecon and Exmor so could retain us under there control if required. During the day at some times admittedly there is traffic to effect and we are controlled as required but in the evening this does tail off.

Another question for you, why is the airspace delegated to Cardiff when most of the traffic originates from or terminates at Bristol? Surely it can't be just the geographical proximity of the airway to Cardiff?

Chilli Monster

1st Dec 2004, 18:41

Another question for you, why is the airspace delegated to Cardiff when most of the traffic originates from or terminates at Bristol?

Who operates en-rte ATC in the UK? NATS

Who supplies ATC at Cardiff? NATS

Who supplies the infrastructure to allow that delegation (radar, radio etc)? NATS

In addition to which - Cardiff is actually centrally positioned to the delegated airspace, which runs TALGA - Exeter as well as ALVIN - AMMAN

055166k

1st Dec 2004, 18:42

Hey! I like that, has a kind of ring to it.
It is true that in the first few weeks of delegation Cardiff were a bit "iffy"; but they have more than made up for it. Given the airspace geometry they have to work with, they are darned good.....hats off to you chaps/chapesses.
The difference between strictly "approach" or strictly "area" is rightly blurred these days.....we just want to get the job done. An approach based TRACON will always have the upper hand in service delivery, their radars normally update every 4 seconds or so, and their picture hasn't been artificially "mushed" to anything like the modern "area" picture; and if they have 3-mile dispensation.....no contest.
Interestingly Cardiff have more delegated airspace than Manchester Sub-centre had when it first opened, I seem to recall climbing HON outbounds to FL110 and chucking to London.
Although I appreciate the 40-mile limit for "Approach radar" which is a historical radar performance related artificial boundary, I am sure there must be an avenue to allow a greater limit when the traffic is wholly contained in regulated airspace.
AVALON and EASYLIFE....lay off Cardiff and Bristol, they are very good at what they do....if you want an axe to grind why not find out why northbounds to Scotland are level-capped whereas London airfields are not....track distance not much different....and why London-Dublin traffic on a route 35 miles shorter is likewise unrestricted.

flower

1st Dec 2004, 18:50

I am sorry Easy Life you simply cannot get the full picture from listening to one frequency as I thought I had already explained to you, we also have to plan against traffic coming out of 5 other airfields other than Bristol.

The situation is quite simple, Cardiff has the airspace delegated to it. We are in an area where there are sector overlaps and the airspace above us can get quite complicated regarding transfer of control , climb throughs etc. You require one controlling authority else wise the situation lends itself to utter confusion.
Would you suggest in the London TMA for example that simply because one unit can see beyond a certain point and as at times there is no traffic on that frequency that you should simply forget that frequency and let someone else do the job ?

I can see Birmingham and Southampton and Bournemouth on the radar does that mean i should keep traffic all the way there although other units may have responsibility for a section of airspace between myself and them.

For whatever reason Cardiff has the airspace, that isn't going to change within the foreseeable future. The procedures have been developed to accommodate the increase in traffic flow through the area. They are a vast improvement although you may not see it, sector flow restrictions have all but disappeared because of the procedures we have in place.
The watch I work opposite are excellent, if on RWY 27 and they have no conflictions you as a pilot will generally be transferred ex Tower to us and you get in the majority of the cases Continuous climb and direct routings. Some watches however hold on to the traffic particularly off RWY 09 and only give you to us passing FL130 without any conflicting traffic.

Avalon may think its all political and they are entitled to that view, I would object to anyone saying that you do not get good customer service. We particularly with the new procedures in place now offer a much safer procedure, again something not necessarily that you were previously aware of.
I would suggest you come along to Cardiff Easy Life and come and see what happens, we would make you very welcome.

I would think should the few at Bristol who have a negative view of things will change their mind when they work the airspace eventually should we combine.

Thank you for your kind words 055166K.
Yes when we took on the additional airspace it was a massively steep learning curve for us all, we did it if i remember correctly without all the simulations and trials one would hope to get.

The job we do now is I think possibly one of the most enjoyable and interesting within the UK. With the addition of Bristol and making it a combined approach can only make it better not only for us at Cardiff but also for our Bristol colleagues.
The ability to use 3 miles can really help sort out the myriad of conflictions which from Easy Life\'s post may not be immediately apparent to Air Crew. We work very closely with our London colleagues and i think our relationship with them has improved greatly.

The 40 mile limit is no longer in there but working traffic beyond 40 miles has to be approved by SRG and that can be a hard process, however should we combine then that 40mile limit will have to change but all of that of course has already been thought of.

floatingharbour

1st Dec 2004, 19:23

A lively debate although maybe slightly off topic now! Not sure about NATS at Bristol but the current setup seems extremely professional and well run at the moment.

Flower: I'm guessing that the 5 airfields in the area you refer to are Cardiff, Bristol, Filton Gloucester and ?, I think the point that Easy Life was making is that Bristol contributes more to the number of movements than the others combined and so it would be suggested that they should work most of the traffic (as with Manchester in the Manchester TMA) I happen to know that Bristol have more up to date equipment as well. Good pilots listen to transmissions and get a mental picture of who is where in the sequence and where traffic effecting their flight is and what it's doing.

Chilli Monster: Should one company have a monopoly in the free market that is modern European ATC? Single European Skys and all that... As far as I know the radar and radios at Bristol belong to Bristol International. Cardiff maybe centrally positioned to the delegated airspace but by that hypothesis airways for England and Wales should be controlled from somewhere between Birmingham and Manchester instead of Swanwick. You can do radar from anywhere nowadays.

Easy Life - Go and visit ATC in Bristol and/or Cardiff if you havent done so, Im sure they'd make you welcome and answer your questions. It's always good to see things from the other side.

Chilli Monster

1st Dec 2004, 19:37

Cardiff maybe centrally positioned to the delegated airspace but by that hypothesis airways for England and Wales should be controlled from somewhere between Birmingham and Manchester instead of Swanwick. You can do radar from anywhere nowadays.
True, but only if the radar pictures are piped in from remote heads. Cardiff, Bristol, Filton and Exeter (Flowers 5th airfield believe it or not) all have autonomous primary radar heads, with secondary (for FF,GD & TG) piped in from Clee Hill (TE's comes from Burrington). With that in mind Cardiff and their associated primary is still the most central.

As for the other things - hey, if I had my way (and would be better for the customer) I would not have any radar services supplied by any airfield. I'm not saying it happens but what's to stop one airfield which has airspace delegated to it, giving priority to its own traffic against a nearby airfields that has to join that delegated airspace. A far better solution would have been to have one provider, from various 'mini centres' supplying radar service on an equal basis in a re-sector'd country (and I'm referring to civil and military here) rather than the divide between the sctorised en-rte and the fragmented terminal services we have in the UK at the moment. Seems to work in the US - why can't we manage it here?

slotbuster

1st Dec 2004, 19:42

So would a NATS takeover of Bristol ATC be a good or bad thing for either the end user (pilots/airlines), airport company or the ATCOs that work there?

What has been the experience of ATCOs at the few airfields that have been taken over by NATS? What do the members of Bristol ATC think.

My experience has been local authority/quasi-military and transport companies fancying their chances at a bit of transport integration before changing their minds, has NATS yet shaken off the civil service type bureaucracy?

I have it on excellent authority that NATS wish to take over Bristol ATC because they would like a combined radar unit for that part of the world to be there, why are they going down the subcentre route there when they seem to have done a U-turn at Manchester?

flower

1st Dec 2004, 20:03

Floating harbour, yes pilots pick up a mental picture of traffic on their frequency but there is more than one frequency operating within the same airspace by co located controllers.

Bristol were the ones who said they couldn't work the traffic that we do in the delegated function, thus should we experience Radar failure the airspace reverts to LACC and Bristol doesn't take the traffic on.

It is very simplistic to say well Bristol has the majority of aircraft movements thus it should have the airspace, Bristol however hasn't always had the majority of traffic and what if that situation should change.
The airspace provider and who it is delegated to isn't going to change so why even debate the point. We also work traffic currently well outside the Bristol 40 mile limit but as Chilli said we are centrally located within the airways system.

Bristol do not suffer because NATS manage the airspace in that area, I wish people would stop thinking of it as Cardiff doing the traffic and consider exactly what it is a delegated function ie London airspace.
As for Bristol having more up to date equipment, well they have just had a new tower and radar room so yes it is more up to date but our equipment is hardly out of the ark ( except for our headsets but that will changing we are assured soon) We also have the benefit of Cardiff radar which has excellent low level coverage in that area, something which Clee Hill doesn't.

This is not about one unit being better than the other, this is about hopefully Bristol coming under the NATS mantle

floatingharbour

1st Dec 2004, 20:07

I forgot about Exeter, thought the area in question would be more centralised around the Severn Estuary but they certainly are a lot more busier than they used to be. Would a combined unit cover the whole south west area? What about the military users?

Chilli Monster: Are you suggesting Swanwick should do ALL the radar services for the whole UK including approach at the various airfields - that would be rather ambitious, remember how long it's taken to get things to where they are now!

Slotbuster: NATS are a big organisation and are bound to have more bureaucracy than a single regional airport but then that isn't a bad thing if it actually works. I would stick my neck out and say that the controllers at Bristol are actually in an excellent position to improve their lot, they just have to realise that change can be difficult - try and get involved as much as possible in the process to get your preferred result.

flower

1st Dec 2004, 20:15

Quite nice to let people have a brief glimpse at what we do.

We have at Cardiff a UHF frequency, this means we work quite a few Military aircraft not least the fact we are the approach unit to a Military Airfield RAF ST Athan.
Military crossers of the airways have increased quite considerably since the increased delegated function.
At the moment we are centred on 40 miles and are unable to offer a radar service outside of that, Exeter is on the edge of the 40 miles. The increase in traffic out of their has certainly increased the workload and as is always the way there are always inbound or outbound aircraft at the same time as inbounds and outbounds out of Cardiff Bristol and Filton :)

Chilli Monster

1st Dec 2004, 20:17

Are you suggesting Swanwick should do ALL the radar services for the whole UK including approach at the various airfields - that would be rather ambitious, remember how long it's taken to get things to where they are now!

In a stylised way - yes.

Before Swanwick was built the entire ATC map and idea behind service should have been re-written on a clean sheet of paper. Don't think in terms of what we have now (Swanwick) - more like 2, 3 or 4 facilities like it for the whole country.

It works overseas - why not here? (Especially considering the sheer physical size, or lack of it, of the UK).

WMD

1st Dec 2004, 23:12

Look at the trend of how NATS is going - if they get the contract, the chances are that the present controllers will be moving to the South coast (or Prestwick!?) to become TC Bristol (or TC Severn etc) .
Now.. if we could only get the airspace in and around EGDM from the military.....

WMD

floatingharbour

2nd Dec 2004, 07:21

I take it such centralisation is perceived as a bad thing? I'm sure for a start that the staff concerned wouldn't want to relocate. I'd imagine there would be much more of a requirement for increased areas of controlled airspace which would have much opposition.

Razors Edge

2nd Dec 2004, 08:05

Off topic, but isn't what chilli monster advocates similar to the environment that existed in ATC a few years back, with Eastern Radar, Penine Radar, Northern Radar etc? The authorities that be did away with that system under the auspices of improvement and modernisation.

Back on subject, it's bad news for those of us outside NATS as an acceptance decision by Bristol will deny us a chance at another decent job at a regional airfield. Where's my chance of an improved job now :ugh: I'm not likely to get taken on by NATS externally am I :(

almost professional

2nd Dec 2004, 08:58

be interesting to know what the terms are for Bristol, provision of service by NATS is normally reckoned to be much more expensive than 'inhouse' either NATS really want the deal and think costs can be cut enough to keep the cost to Bristol within reasonable bounds or Bristol reason its the only way to guarantee continous supply of suitably qualified ATCO's
would not be suprised at all to find NATS more aggresive in applying to take on ATC at other units!

Gonzo

2nd Dec 2004, 10:08

Razor's edge....why not?

Standard Noise

2nd Dec 2004, 10:40

Oh to be away for a day and miss the fun..

Eastern me old mucker, yep it appears I've walked out of the frying pan into the fire. Maybe I'll get a set of keys for the asylum after all!! ;)

From rumours I've heard, it seems that NATS are a bit desperate to bring Brizzel into the fold. Certainly dropping the contract price by that much:ooh: would seem to indicate so.
Certain people make it sound like Cardiff is a shoe in to get a combined radar function for both units, but I'm not so sure. Let's just say I wouldn't rush down to Willy Hill's for the latest SP. There are arguments for and against both units taking the function and I'd prefer it to be here, natch. But some people make it sound as if just because Bristol is non-NATS now, that we couldn't handle a combined "doing area function as London, vectoring all the traffic in the west of Engerland and parts of the western darklands as well as Exeter etc etc blah blah......." Well I know there is a culture in NATS of "if they're non NATS then they wouldn't be able to cope", but quite frankly, most of the best ATCO's I've worked with have been non-NATS, either through choice or because they weren't very good at chatting up their OJTI's. Some of us work quieter non-NATS units and some of us work at very busy non-NATS units, but that doesn't neccessarily mean we couldn't work a very busy NATS workload. Especially for very big NATS wages!:ok:

floatingharbour

2nd Dec 2004, 13:06

from what I've read it seems that NATS is quite desperate to get Bristol, all this talk of dropping the contract price. Either they're now leaving something out of the deal, treating the whole thing as a loss-leader or just want to show to the world that they're able to get contracts at slightly larger units. Look out Newcastle and East Mids! (Bournemouth and Norwich in the bag yet?)

I'm sure that our colleagues at Bristol could handle the traffic, they're doing a great job at the moment. ....and for our Cardiff colleagues - you do a great job as well but you have to acknowledge you owe a lot to your busy neighbour accross the Severn otherwise you'd be twiddling your thumbs most of the time!

Razors Edge

2nd Dec 2004, 16:10

Further consideration I'm sure for Bristol is the upcoming requirements for ATS providers when 'European Single Sky' gets underway:uhoh: Big headaches all round :* Bl**dy Europeans:rolleyes: ATC provision contracted out = pain removal without paracetamol:D

Tower Ranger

2nd Dec 2004, 20:18

Ah Standard back to the warm bossom of your beloved Nats. What a lovely warm feeling and you always spoke so highly of them!!
Maybe Ferrovial could do a " Buy one Get One Free " for them and we could both sort out our pensions!!

Standard Noise

3rd Dec 2004, 07:09

TR - I'm not as close to my pension as you, so I'm not just as worried about my advancing years.:ok:
As for NAZI, sorry, I mean NATS, I'm not sure they want me back after the last time, I did use some colourful expressions in my time there. Still, if they give jobs to eastern & co then there may be hope for me yet.:p
I thought BOGOF deals were only available in Tesco, but if it helps you get to Muckamore quicker then it might not be a bad idea.

slotbuster

3rd Dec 2004, 13:53

had to have a bit of a giggle when I discovered that some call us the Cardiff TRACON

This gave me a big laugh as well, thanks for that!
:O

nats

3rd Dec 2004, 18:57

Shouldn't it be Cardiff TAFCON

Standard Noise

4th Dec 2004, 17:13

Or even - TAFFY TRACON!:p

slotbuster

4th Dec 2004, 17:17

as featured in the film "Pushing Sheep"!!:D

Tower Ranger

4th Dec 2004, 17:27

Was that the movie about Air Taffic?

niknak

5th Dec 2004, 18:07

Our employers have been looking at the possibility of contracting out ATC for several years now, and whilst they haven't dismissed the idea once and for all, they are very much of the mind that they would like to keep it "in - house";
They see advantages and disadvantages of contracting out as follows;
Disadvantages:
1 - NATS would charge significantly more for provision of the service than it currently costs.
2 - NATS would also want to take on the Tel's engineers as part of the contract, thereby increasing overall costs.
3 - Ultimately, NATS would want to remote the approach control function, leaving just tower atcos at the airport, and SSR and primary cover from the local NATS radar head is sufficiant for provision of a fully remoted service, and therefore there's no requirement for our own radar head and equipment at the airport. But, if for any reason, after 5 years the airport want to get rid of NATS, they have to remploy a substantial number of approach and tower rated atco's and reinstate all the equipment at significant cost. NATS would have us by the balls.
Advantages:
1 - We will have up to 5 retirements in the next 4 years, we don't train our own atco's, additionally, anyone can fall over at a medical. Only NATS can guarantee to make cover immediately available to cover at short notice.
2 - NATS can make new technology and equipment available as part of new developments and research, ultimately there would be a cost to the airport company, but this would be significantly less than if it was bought off the shelf, and staff would be trained on the equipment for more or less "nil cost".
3 - NATS have the in - house infrastructure and experience to manage and provide future installation and other projects which the airport would otherwise have to farm out to several different suppliers with the inherent delays and problems this may incur.

No doubt Serco would say that they could also provide all the advantages, but they wouldn't commit themselves in writing, NATS did.

When it comes down to it, money talks, and employing a contractor is always going to be more expensive than doing it yourself.
The only reason that NATS will not lose any of their current larger BAA contracts is because the airports would incur significant cost in employing their own ATC staff.
However, the service cost at Luton, Southampton, Farnborough and also when Manchester ATCC moves to McNerk, will be constantly under the sharp eye of the bean counters.

Yes, NATS definately are under instruction to aggressively market themselves as an ATC provider, but they are not going to do this for anyone if they won't make a profit, and Bristol won't employ them unless they see it to be a significant financial benefit to the airport company.

Turn It Off

5th Dec 2004, 21:29

Cardiff, Bristol, Filton and Exeter (Flowers 5th airfield believe it or not) all have autonomous primary radar heads, with secondary (for FF,GD & TG) piped in from Clee Hill (TE's comes from Burrington).

Cardiff has its own Secondary head, its a god send when the primary goes down I imagine, the clee cover is pretty poor. Maybe even a burrington feed would be better?? Exeter have it.

As far as people might not be up for relocation. All NATS Members that shoot through the forums will more than likely be aware that anything that is moved to Swanwick also attracts a band 5 pay, rather than a lower band. Who knows what Bristol would be banded. Based on Tower movements i'm guessing three ( Thats assuming NATS WIN the contract ). Thats a fairly hefty increase. Probably even more for any bristol guys and girls that moved to NATS and then subsequently to Swanwick.

I cant see the move to the south coast happening in the short term ( 5 or 6 years ) but longer than that, surely NATS would be foolish not too? Especially with the new course streaming?

Only ideas - what u recon??

TIO

P.S. - Cardiff TRACON???? shocking

Razors Edge

7th Dec 2004, 16:27

Why not Gonzo? Because once Bristol goes with NATS, all ATCO recruitement will be done internally. No hope for outsiders like me:{

Can't see some of (if not most of) the Bristol controllers being too happy about moving to Cardiff or indeed Swanwick if NATS co-locate the Radar Room.

A bit like Turkeys voting for Christmas isn't it.

Take the Queen's sovereign and then choose between better pay but relocation to a radar room somewhere else or stay where you are, lose a skill by becoming Tower only and get payed less.

Hmm:hmm: Choices choices:rolleyes:

Gonzo

7th Dec 2004, 17:17

I can understand not wanting to move from Bristol, but NATS recruit externally too, you know!

Minesapint

7th Dec 2004, 18:05

Any truth in the rumour that the Spanish firm AENA are bidding for / buying Bristol and Cardiff airports?

vintage ATCO

7th Dec 2004, 19:18

Any truth in the rumour that the Spanish firm AENA are bidding for / buying Bristol and Cardiff airports?

AENA and Abertis have already successfully bid for the three TBI airports, Cardiff, Belfast and Luton.

Ranger 1

7th Dec 2004, 20:22

This rumour is news to me, Vintage ATCO, but I did hear a Rumour that BRS's owners were taking a look at CWL some months ago, which raised a few interesting questions:confused:

vintage ATCO

7th Dec 2004, 21:49

Ranger 1

This may help

http://www.abertis.com/ing/index.htm

and this

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=153323

Do keep up! :D

Gypsy Queen

10th Dec 2004, 08:19

This has all been very interesting, has a decision been made by Lulsgate yet? There's been no official news yet has there?

Legs11

16th Dec 2004, 11:11

There might be more news on Friday...I believe that NATS are visiting for (in)formal chats with the staff........

niknak

16th Dec 2004, 11:19

Would that be via Filton then?...:p :E

055166k

16th Dec 2004, 11:51

Careful buddies...NATS will want to peg your salaries and keep you under-the-heel whilst promising wonderful things. They will post in several layers of lap-dog managers and you'll wonder what hit you.
Agree to NOTHING without good union representation from Day One. Transitional union arrangements during transfer of Employer leave you at your weakest in negotiating.....whereas in reality your "agreement" is the strongest hand.
Remember that you are about to be hit by a slick glossy-brochure package from an organisation eager to profit from all the hard work of the last few years and Bristol's phenomenal expansion....why not ask them why you have no Regulated Airspace even though you have over 50,000 ATM's a year....Oh Sorry....they won't know?

Standard Noise

16th Dec 2004, 23:26

"Remember that you are about to be hit by a slick glossy brochure package from an organisation eager to profit from all the hard work of the last few years....."
..........or maybe they've just come to their senses and realised we're just a fab bunch of guys who will be able to show the rest of the airports group a trick or two!

Roll on Friday 16:00, then we'll see the whites of their eyes!
:E

Oh to be back in the asylum!:}

Gypsy Queen

17th Dec 2004, 17:19

Well 1600's been and gone. I wonder what was said, was it convincing?:hmm:

Standard Noise

17th Dec 2004, 22:42

So it has, my goodness look at the time. Lots was said and I'm convinced by every bit of it.;)

Oh and a nice slick glossy brochure each as well, my aren't we the lucky ones. Didn't bring us any frisbees though.:hmm:

Turn It Off

18th Dec 2004, 09:35

You must have got a free nats pen - Surely there are 21 pens, all exciting new destinations ........................

055166k

18th Dec 2004, 10:28

An early Christmas present for 500 lads and lasses at Southampton; the current NATS boss of barely six months came to us from ALSTOM as you know, together with several of his henchmen to fill non-advertised posts. In their wake is a trail of destruction of company-wide proportion.
The new NATS HQ at Whitely was strategically placed between Swanwick and Southampton.....did I say strategically or co-incidentally?....can't remember......anyway with hindsight it was not necessary because the "500" refers to the number of brother workers thrown on the scrapheap a week before Christmas with the closure of the ALSTOM Rail engineering base at Eastleigh.
This week it is "aviation" and your jobs are safe because ATCO's are in short supply.......but think ahead brothers and sisters......the British Government does not have the same bale-out policy as our French cousins, who rescued ALSTOM to the tune of several £billion.
Down at Swanwick we just work and work, and absolutely nothing else....every common-sense recommendation for liaison visits and Fam flights is completely ignored.....we are just blobs on a staff graph on some-one's wall.
Welcome to NATS West Country buddies.

Standard Noise

18th Dec 2004, 14:16

Whoa Neddy, we ain't been sectioned just yet!
Wait a few days before rolling out the welcome whip.

eastern wiseguy

18th Dec 2004, 15:04

Seriously though Standard ...you always see the "bad" side of Nats ...did they offer ANYTHING to you guys at Bristol to change your mind? ...or will you be saddling up and moving elsewhere?

Legs11

18th Dec 2004, 17:15

Of course they could always make room for a Filton console too!:uhoh:

Standard Noise

18th Dec 2004, 18:15

eastern,

believe it or not, I don't think joining Nats is such a bad thing, but if that had been my only plan in the first place, I'd have latched on to you guys more when I was at the City. You'll just have to excuse my cynicism when I say that having been royally screwed by a half-witted and short sighted Nats management back in 1995 (albeit, one of many who were in the same boat), I'm not entirely convinced that this time they'll at least ask for a kiss first if they're planning to **** me again

But here's the thing, Bristol is the first unit/employer that I've worked for that I enjoy working for. They actually seem to care about their staff, rather than seeing Air Traffic as just a huge expense and legal encumbrance. Your ideas and input are asked for and appreciated, not stolen and used by a greasy pole climber. By and large we as a section are left to get on with it as the airport management realise that the ATCO's know more about Air Traffic than the management do. I'm afraid I can't apply all of that to all of my former employers. The unit is fairly well run, and unlike my past units, everyone pretty much gets on with everyone else.

Do I see the benefits of Nats, yes I do, but I also see downside which I can't go into here and now. Long term, as I said, it's not a bad idea but only if the status quo is retained, however circumstances can change and it could in 10 years time, prove to be a bad move. I wouldn't exactly say they said anything to change my mind because I know the organisation more than some at Bristol, but I just can't forgive Nats 100% for the treatment they meted out to me at a very low point in my personal life. Still, I picked myself up and over the last 9 years I've worked hard to get into the position where I am working at what I see as one of the top two best and busiest non-Nats units in the UK. At least in 2005, I would be joining as a valid ATCO rather than the latest in a long line of cannon fodder.

One or two of the others who have only ever worked here have asked if I think it is a good move and I have answered honestly.

As for me moving elsewhere, no, I'm going to stand and fight this time. Besides, Mrs Noise has told me that if I want to move again, it'll be via the divorce court. She's very happy here and jnr is at a fairly good school (I mean it's not on a par with Bangor Grammar but it's good as english comps go). Anyway, I like it here. Every town in England should have a resident Ulsterman to soak up the black stuff and terrorise the locals with his erratic driving. It didn't take me long to scare one of my workmates half to death on a liason visit. He didn't realise a Beemer could reach those speeds on Somerset's twisty roads! :E

Legs 11 - wash your mouth out with carbolic, you evil fool. what a horrid suggestion!:}

Tower Ranger

20th Dec 2004, 10:43

Eh Standard?
" ideas and input are asked for and appreciated, " that brings back memories, though as you know from first hand experience not very recent ones.
So is it a done deal then??

Gypsy Queen

20th Dec 2004, 11:39

More news after tomorrow's management meeting I would think...:ok:

Standard Noise

20th Dec 2004, 18:36

T R - Gypsy Queen seems to be as well informed as I am. No doubt I will be the last to know since I'm not back in until Wed morning.

Are they still not listening to you TR? Why not come over here and be listened to instead. You too could be in the warm and cosy Nats bosom before long. Talking of which, how is the honourable member for Muckamore these days?

Turn It Off

6th Jan 2005, 17:24

Any ideas how this is going??

All has gone quiet since xmas - The office bods must be back at it by now??

TIO

Banana Split

7th Jan 2005, 09:02

I think you'll find, the major stumbling block at the moment is pensions. Not so much for joining the NATS one though, more for what they'll get on leaving a very good Bristol Airport one. Plus with 40 odd people leaving what is after all a small pension scheme, how will that scheme manage to support itself in the future - there's more than justATC to be considered there:uhoh:

A I

22nd Apr 2005, 13:35

Is the contract all sorted out now chaps? Rumour around the River Hamble is that your new boss is temporarily housed here until July when(s)he starts at EGGD. Our loss etc etc etc.

A I :} :} :} :} :}

055166k

22nd Apr 2005, 14:32

No vacancy notice then? Nod Nod Wink Wink!
When the music stops you can have....er....."Bristol".
Blast.....running out of seats.......write a memo....must take over more airports.

Standard Noise

22nd Apr 2005, 15:01

And there was me thinking that Cardiff's new lord and master was going to spread his wings and make Brizzy his main base of operations!:ok:

We hear the lawyers are poring through the contract at the moment. Ah well, nice idea while it lasted.:rolleyes:

flower

22nd Apr 2005, 15:12

Us come over to Bristol , Nah we have just bought this enormous new fridge so we can accommodate all the food for when all the Staff from Bristol move over to us at Cardiff :p

This contract thing is going on and on, apparently a new legal team started with NATS and view and deal with contracts very differently from how they were done in the past, about time it was sorted one way or the other though.

Standard Noise

22nd Apr 2005, 15:23

Maybe I should have said 'the lawyers are boring (us) over the contract. At this rate I'll be retired before I rejoin the fold.:zzz: :zzz:

flower - I can eat for Ireland, make sure it\'s a BIG fridge!:} Oh, and move it eastwards a bit...............about 20 miles eastwards.;)

055166k

23rd Apr 2005, 21:24

Don't worry Cardiff buddies, do you think the Welsh Assembly will permit the control of traffic in Welsh airspace, and particularly in and out of Wales' premier airport, to be controlled from over the water?
I'd get the e-mail off double quick!!! [just in case they don't know]
Some-one mentioned a new legal team....check out the relevant CV's......a long history of....well.....involvement with the rail industry.....more rail buddies to the rescue.....were we that bad before?
Where are Owain Glyn Dwr and Twm Sion Cati when you need them?

Standard Noise

25th Apr 2005, 15:48

Oi, stop it you lot, or I'll get the Witch of Wookey Hole onto you!:p

A I

26th Apr 2005, 14:01

Hey Standard, That's a bit forward when talking of your new General Manager. She's taking flying lessons at the moment.

A I :\ :\ :\ :E :ok:

Standard Noise

26th Apr 2005, 14:40

Ohmygod! Not on the new 'Nimbus 2005' ?:}

A I

13th Aug 2005, 12:31

Hey Guys,

Has the contract been finalised yet?

A I

Standard Noise

13th Aug 2005, 16:40

Now that's just a silly question, isn't it?:rolleyes: :p

NEXT!

And before you ask, the delay has been mainly down to the fact that the NATS solicitor was sick, apparently. I mean, how big is that bloody organisation and they only have one bloody solicitor!?
Something tells me we're about to be sucked into a farcical world.
Re-arrange these words............piss, brewery, organise, up etc etc:zzz:

JayeRipley

15th Aug 2005, 09:48

Re-arrange these words............piss, brewery, organise, up etc etc

That's NATS for you!! Any more news?

An interesting thread. As a NATS Area atco, yes you may get the feeling that NATS controllers think you couldn't hack it because you are non NATS blah blah blah. But to be honest, we only have to see what goes on at East Mids, Liverpool, Newcastle and Leeds to know that it's not the case ( I am sure the same can be said of Bristol). We have a good relationship with the non NATS airports we deal with ( I hope ), and I guess you are always going to get some pillock who thinks that he/she is superior because they are NATS. I can assure you though that the majority of us do not think that - or is it just me?

DtyCln

15th Aug 2005, 09:53

Interesting listening to all you EGFF & GD boys and girls chatting away on here.

It's fairly common knowledge within NATS that the intention, on securing the contract, is to move EGGD APP and ultimately EGTG into EGFF. Cardiff already has the "expertise" of running the zone and by cross validating both controllers onto FF/GD/TG approach you ultimately need less. It's what we already do with EGSS/GW/KK at LTCC.

This is all common knowledge.

:confused:

Standard Noise

15th Aug 2005, 13:33

JayeRipley - As I said on another thread, some of the area guys who come to visit us walk out of our radar room with an astonished look on their faces. It only seems to be the old crusties like Heathrow Director who have the attitude of "if you're chopped by NATS, it's obviously because you can't hack it as an ATCO".
The only NATS ATCO's we seem to get any respect from is our friends like flower over at Cardiff. The area guys don't seem to rate us, but then again, did they rate Luton or Southampton before they joined the fold? Do I care?

But hey, why should I care what people think, very soon I'm going to be on the inside of the tent, but I don't intend to start p1ssing outward.:E

DtyCln - if it's such common knowledge, why do your colleagues at Cardiff not seem to be aware of it? And who's going to pay for it? TBI? I don't think so, they are not a company who like to spend money on facilities, especially when such facilities will not realise a substantial financial return. What would be in it for them to build a new ATC facility at Cardiff to house the approach function to help their nearest (and more successful) rival?
I think you'll find that a twenty year contract comes with certain guarantees, one of which will be that Bristol does not lose it's radar function at the airport. That will enable BIA to get out of the contract should they come to their senses and realise that they were better off as it was before, to put it politely.

Watch words for the coming months remain - up, brewery, organise, piss!

JayeRipley

15th Aug 2005, 14:12

The only NATS ATCO's we seem to get any respect from is our friends like flower over at Cardiff. The area guys don't seem to rate us

I guess this is due to the age old problem of ignorance. You get respect from the Cardiff atcos 'cos they are fully aware of what you do. There are a few colleagues where I am who slate non NATS regional airports because they assume that because they are not NATS they must be crap. I've never known a job with so much bad feeling between service providers:-

Civil v Mil
NATS v Non NATS
Area v Approach
LACC/LTCC v MACC/SCACC

Rearrange all of above to suit personal gripe!!!

On a different note, does Mr Willcox still fly out of Clutton Hill/High Littleton?

flower

15th Aug 2005, 16:12

Standard Noise these compliments are getting too much for me :p
We at Cardiff work very closely with our Bristol colleagues, there is no way we could operate the delegated function as successfully if we didn't have the support of our ATCO colleagues at Bristol.
NATS or Non NATS an ATCO is an ATCO.

AS for what happens with Bristol should it come under the NATS umbrella well there is a lot of speculation but I guess only the bean counters really know.

Cardiff ATC is undergoing what could only be described as an extreme makeover at the moment, TBI is spending a considerable amount of money on us as is NATS, the Radar room is undergoing refurbishment with an additional radar position going in, we understand new TFT radar displays are in the pipeline,a NAS link new transmitters and receivers, well just about everything new you could imagine. The VCR is getting a brand new layout and furniture over the winter as well.

There is no doubt that from both a controlling point of view and for the benefit of aircrew's a combined unit would be good, the amount of traffic Exeter also now produces for us perhaps Exeter should also be considered part of the fold, but what you are then creating is a sub centre and I understood NATS policy was to create a two centre strategy so that would be going against policy.

Only time will tell

A I

15th Aug 2005, 23:51

Hey Flower,

What they didn't tell you is that there is plenty of room just off the River Hamble (but not in the car park!). I see the South West Tracon sitting on those 13 spare consoles being put into the new TCR which no-one (and I mean NO-ONE) seems to know anything about. The rumour was that they were for MACC but that one seems pretty dead now.

On the plus side that will make you working at a Grade 5 station. :D :E :cool: :D :E

A I

flower

16th Aug 2005, 10:42

A I,
Yep I have also heard those rumours. Quite happy myself for that to happen. :cool:

AlanM

17th Aug 2005, 06:09

Every ATCO I have ever met claims to work the hardest, most complicated sector or airfield. (Including me!:))

I agree that ignorance can play a part - and of course most ATCO's have egos the size of the Grand Canyon which doesn't help.

Of course, if we were given time to do liaison visits....... :}

Standard Noise

17th Aug 2005, 11:35

AlanM - we get lots of time for liason visits, our management call them "rest days".:hmm:

JayeRipley

17th Aug 2005, 13:25

Indeed Standard Noise - but failing a visit, how about a (shock horror) change in attitude. Just because a flight goes from a NATS service to a Non NATS service, doesn't mean it's going to be less safe or handled less professionally. Life's too short for this "my unit is better than your unit" stuff, it's just a job after all, and we should all respect that we do it to the best of our ability where ever we are. Hmmm, perhaps my ego needs some Viagra.

Ps. Any Lulsgate ATCOs know if Mr Willcox is still flying out of Clutton Hill, near Chew Valley lake?

ATCOJ30

20th Aug 2005, 17:24

He flies out of a local strip called Stowey, less than a mile from Clutton Hill, I think you'll find.

Standard Noise

22nd Sep 2005, 08:12

Ohmigod! We're at the point of no return, only 9 days til the asylum door slams behind us!!:{ :{

flower

22nd Sep 2005, 08:29

And I hear rumours that Bristol and Cardiff ATC may have a joint Christmas Party, what is the world coming too ;)

ATCO1987

22nd Sep 2005, 10:46

Does that mean NITS have gotten hold of Bristol, Noisy?

Dan.

A I

22nd Sep 2005, 18:52

That means you can all join the NATS Forum. I bet you can't wait.

A I ;) ;)

Standard Noise

23rd Sep 2005, 02:48

mmm, I'm trembling with excitement....................or is that just the curry I had for lunch?:confused:

Legs11

23rd Sep 2005, 07:54

I have only one thing to say....:ok:

Standard Noise

23rd Sep 2005, 14:27

Trapped, in a nightmare not of my making, fab. Still, could be worse, I could be working for Serco!
Rumour has it the new ATSM/GM will commute from the sunny south coast. NATS shelling out for a new dual carriageway are they?!:confused:

ATCOJ30

28th Sep 2005, 18:44

Flower - notice up on our board in the Rest Room now re. joint Xmas party proposal. And where were you at the Cardiff-Bristol bowling night? A very good do, for sure. Even I went along...

flower

28th Sep 2005, 20:06

ATCOJ30,
would have loved to have been there but it was arranged when I was working.
As a lady who gets strikes and turkeys when I bowl I suspect it was arranged on purpose when i couldn't attend.

Like the idea of a joint Christmas doo though, gets my vote :ok:

Standard Noise

29th Sep 2005, 15:01

OH! That sounds like a challenge, the Fabulous Flower v Stormer Settle.

REMATCH!!:}

flower

29th Sep 2005, 15:04

Hehehe,
I shall introduce you to the Barnes Wallace bowling style of Flower :O

Standard Noise

29th Sep 2005, 15:58

It's ok flower, I we have a few exponents of that style on our team already!:ooh:
Although maybe you could teach them a thing or two.

Dances with Boffins

30th Sep 2005, 07:58

If your new GM is the South-Coast commuter - you one very lucky bunch! i don't know what the bowling skills are like, but they are one top boss.

Standard Noise

3rd Oct 2005, 21:18

We'll, the proof of the pudding and all that. Roll on the 17th!

flower

4th Oct 2005, 07:26

Roll on the 17th!

Yeah but which year ??? :rolleyes:

Legs11

4th Oct 2005, 10:52

and which month:} :\

Standard Noise

4th Oct 2005, 16:27

Oh for goodness sake, you lot just don't get it, do you!?
Were only interested in silly dates that keep being put back, we don't actually want to join, we just want to be kept waiting. It's so much fun.:rolleyes:

Razors Edge

6th Oct 2005, 12:42

:D you gotta laff, put back again - 1st November now:rolleyes:

Standard Noise

7th Oct 2005, 11:11

Marvellous, that solves a few issues we had.

flower

31st Oct 2005, 09:13

The contract is finally signed and Bristol have made the front page of NATS intranet news.
Good to have you onboard Bristol :ok:

eastern wiseguy

31st Oct 2005, 10:37

Welcome back Standard..!!! sounds of Hotel California playing softly in the background :E

Wee Weasley Welshman

31st Oct 2005, 18:02

Well speaking as a customer all I can say is that both Cardiff and Bristol air traffic are equally marvelous as a product.

Whatever the politics or issues the fact is that all the customers I know who use your service every day rate it highly - from both suppliers. So whatever happens in the future just keep on doing what you are doing.

I have particular interest in BRS ATC as I spoke to them on the first day of Go-Fly operations into BRS. Just a blink of an eye later and there are 8 737/319's parked every night plus a growth in the incumbent operations. You've coped well and developed seemlessly with the pace of traffic at the airport. I've noted improved procedures every couple of months and the way various incidents have been handled have been spot on. You have a lot to be proud of and I hope that continues under NATS.

Cheers

WWW

Ranger 1

31st Oct 2005, 23:06

Well its now a case of "NATS is now providing ATC at Lulsgate"
all the best for the future working for NATS
Ranger 1 :ok:

055166k

1st Nov 2005, 10:59

Hearty welcome Bristol buddies!
Ah....I can picture it now.....the swift frigate "Brizzel" joins the cruiser "Cardiffboyo" and falls in line with the mighty aircraft carrier "Swanwickus".
It's all a game really....called monopoly. You've joined a not-for-profit organisation that made a £68.8million profit year-end 31st March 2005; but don't worry because now you have shares.
UK Gov 49%
The Airline Group 42%
BAA 4%
Employee sharetrust 5%

You will not believe how small a pay rise we have been offered after a continuous stream of fantastic performance headlines through-out the year.

Could I be serious for a brief moment ...did you get your pension thing sorted....and do you have Union representation settled?
RGDS.