Ryanair: 100 new aircraft, 800 new pilots

[ElNino]

This has to be good news, despite all the well-aired opinions on Ryanair:

(From ireland.com)

Ryanair €10bn plane deal to create 3,000 jobs

Last updated: 24-01-02, 11:31

Budget airline Ryanair has ordered 100 Boeing 737 aircraft and taken options for 50 more in a deal worth €10.2 billion, it said today.

The multi-billion deal with Boeing will create over 3,000 jobs. Ryanair said it would need 800 new pilots and 2,000 cabin crew as well as 400 engineers and operations staff.

The 100 new 737-800s aircraft are scheduled to be delivered to Ryanair, which has an all-Boeing fleet, beginning in 2002 and continuing through 2010, Boeing and Ryanair said in a joint statement.

"We have found through experience that the 737 provides the unbeatable cost economies and reliability you need to be a profitable low-fare airline," Ryanair chief executive Mr Michael O'Leary told reporters.

Analysts believe the carrier achieved very attractive pricing on the aircraft, with a discount of perhaps 30 per cent, exceeding even the routine price cuts that civil-aircraft manufacturers offer.

Ryanair is one of the few airlines in a position to buy aircraft at the moment, as the industry suffers from over-capacity created by a global economic slowdown and the impact of the September 11th attacks on travel markets.

It has gone on the offensive in recent months, seeking to exploit the malaise of the national flag carriers, which have seen bookings fall sharply since the September 11th suicide assaults on the United States.

The order is a significant boost for US Boeing, which has seen its order book overtaken by that of European rival Airbus.

AFP/PA

[Foss]

Heard comparisons made to Air Europe which went bust, don't know about that, before my time.

Good quote from MOL though... .Asked where he would like to see extra runway capacity in England, Mr O'Leary said his preference would be another runway at Stansted airport in Essex.. . He added: "I don't mind where as long as it is done quickly and we don't have another long public inquiry. Even environmental protesters want their two weeks in Ibiza each summer when they have spent their time on the picket line."

you've got to laugh at the guy

[LAVDUMPER]

Great news for British pilots - especially those without many prospects at BA, Virgin, etc....

Hey, flying an advanced 737-800 around Europe for "pretty good" pay wouldn't be too bad. Let's just hope MOL's ego doesn't grow too much as a result - I hear working for him can be difficult (Herb Kelleher he is NOT).

It will be interesting to watch Easyjet's reaction - I am sure Airbus is REALLY motivated to make a deal...

It will be fun to watch the Ryanair/Easyjet/GO rivalries grow in the future...

. .Cheers

[Honest Fr@nk]

Yes it is good news.. .800 new pilot jobs.. .Well thats 800 x £50 to start with. . .Plus the cost of the interview thats another rake of money.

[hassel]

Don't really mean to be negative but. .100 A/C 800 pilots = 4 crew per A/C. . .Nuff Said

[RVR800]

"Ryanair is going to be a monster in Europe in the next 10 years," Ryanair chief Michael O'Leary said.

Ryanair wants to be Europe's largest airline in terms of passenger numbers by 2010.

Low cost carriersa aim to carry more passengers than all but the biggest three European airlines BA, Air France, and Lufthansa - by 2008.

Ryanair has ordered 100 Boeing 737-800 airplanes. .and has taken out options to buy a further 50,

The airline expects to take delivery of the new aircraft between 2002 and 2010.

. ..

[evolante]

Aha! So the Ryan Air announcement for 50 + B737-300 used aircraft was afterall a ploy to bring Boeing back to the negotiating table to lower prices on the new delivery aircraft.

Question for someone in the know:-

"Will Ryan lease these aircraft and if so are ILFC or GECAS well in bed, or do Ryan propose to pay cash with bank support???"

[Red-liner]

BillyFish2,

A comic name for a suitably comic statement.

You've been on a Ryanair 737-200 with far more than 130 seats have you? In a pig's eye you ****!!!

The loadsheets that I sign on a daily basis never have more than 130 pax on board and if there were more than 130 seats on board you can bet that we would fill them at every available opportunity.

There are strictly speaking, a few more seats on board but I'm sure you won't begrudge the Captain, First Officer and the 3 Cabin Attendants a seat each would you?

For the sake of clarity there are two other seats but we call them toilets and I'm afraid that is where statements, such as yours, belong.

[Localiser Green]

hassel,

I understand 21 of the -200s will be replaced meaning actual fleet expansion of 79 units. So 800 extra pilots is 10 per a/c which is 5 crews per a/c.

Sounds reasonable to me?

[DB6]

Red-liner, I think what you mean is 'Erm, excuse me BillyFish2, but I think you might be mistaken about those seat numbers old bean'. Not a training captain are you?

[McC]

Red-liner. Why so aggressive to Billy?

[allianceair]

Red-Liner heart rate was Red Lining when he made that post :)

[perseus]

Red Liner.. .Baby you are one mean dude with attitude. You need to chill out man. If you are signing load sheets you have a responsibility to communicate with a little more decorum. Hang lose baby.

[hobie]

737-200 ...... not an official boeing spec sheet but its interesting .... see the following web add'y ....

<a href="http://www.hamiltonaviation.com/B737200.htm" target="_blank">http://www.hamiltonaviation.com/B737200.htm</a>

115 to 130 is Pax spec

[quaerereverum]

Actually LAVDUMPER, in a bizarre sort of way, MOL's deal with Boeing actually gives Airbus a stronger negotiating position with Easyjet than before, as it is highly unlikely that Boeing would be able to fulfil substantial orders from both carriers in the required timeframe!

So, not only has MOL pulled off a commercial coup, he has stuck it to Stelios at the same time.

He must be wearing a smile as wide as the Irish Sea.

[schwabn]

BillyFish2 and all others slagging off Redliner:

Every word he said in his post is true and no, he wasn't too aggressive, simply stopping another sad **** slagging off Ryanair for no reason with made up facts.

This order will definitely see FR become the biggest and best in Europe, well done MOL!!

[timsan]

" every word he said in his post was true "

FlyingIrishman you must be on the same wavelength as Redliner. Perhaps you could explain what . .In a pig's eye you ****!!!!! means.

There is always a reason for sad twats to slag off Ryanair.

Run by a tosser for tossers. <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[maxalt]

Well at least all those ex Aer Lingus joes will have somewhere to go.

Will the last man to leave please remember to switch off the lights (and leave BC and WW where they belong...alone in the cold and the dark).

[HugMonster]

I think we get the idea of Redliner's and Flyingirishman's professionalism and attitude to others from their language.

Do we assume that this attitude runs throughout FR?

[Few Cloudy]

Who's ya daddy Red liner?

[high & fast]

When I used to work for the Irish state carrier there was a lot of slagging off reference Ryanair. They said they would go bust in a year. That was in 1994. Oh how wrong you can be! Ryanair has gone from strength to strength and we have to respect them as a growing business force in European air travel. It's time to stop putting them down and to actually learn from their success. How panicked the Aer Lingus pilots must feel at the moment. Facing a strike situation whilst their rivals blossom in these hard times. It's time the state airline's pilots stopped pretending about their redundancy package, working conditions, etc., and started thinking about the long term future of their company.

[PINK]

O'Leary is a dreadful man that postures according to press perception on the day. If anybody believes that he has the capability to pull off that type of order . . . . I seem to remember similar chest beating 6/12 months ago. Stelios does the same sort of rubbish every 3 months or so. Relax guys. All this guy is about is devaluing our job into nothing more than bus drivers and if he could get away with it he would pay us bus drivers money. Steer clear my friends, O'leary is an anogram for dodgy irish cowboy.

[aviatorwrld]

Someone asked about ILFC and GECAS...whats the story there?

. .And on another note, I would not rule out the potential for a Boeing and Easy Jet deal just yet.

<img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[evolante]

Aviatorwrld - T'was I who asked many posts back about ILFC/GECAS but sadly the question got buried under the usual f****** mudslinging that arises whenever for example Ryanair or the Guvnor's names are mentioned.

***LETS STICK TO RUMOURS AND NEWS GUYS***

I ask again "Who will be funding the 100 x B737-800 deliveries???"

[evolante]

Looks like I've found (part) of the answer to my question:-

Ryanair is playing down the impact of the scope of today’s aircraft order - the actual price of which neither party is revealing - on its financial position. It insists it is consistent with the growth already enjoyed by the airline and that the cash-rich company has the resources to fund the transaction - pointing to $700 million in the bank.

“We are funding 15% of the purchase price and that is already in our balance sheet,” says O’Leary. The remainder of the financing, as was the case with its existing 737-800 purchases from Boeing, will be arranged with loans at competitive rates thanks to US Eximbank loan guarantees.

“There has never been a better time to do aircraft financing. Debt will be significantly higher,” he concedes, but notes, “It will be lower then the aircraft value and cash. Our cash balance has consistently risen faster than our debt. We are very well financed.”. .(Extract from Air Transport Intelligence Repport 25 January)

[Groundloop]

Truthseeker, 100 aircraft delivered over 8 years is just over 12 aircraft per year. I think Mr Boeing has enough capacity to handle other large orders on the 737 line at the same time. If EasyJet go for more 737s delivery will not be a problem.

[ 25 January 2002: Message edited by: Groundloop ]</p>

[Luke SkyToddler]

I'll tell you how he's funding them ... <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

800 x £50 charge to submit your CV = £40,000

800 x £150 charge for a sim ride = £120,000

800 x £15,000 charge for a type rating = £12,000,000

800 x F/O's working for a lower basic wage than Mcdonalds and no sector pay = a LOT of money <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

[highlandman]

I am very surprise to see that Ryanair still manage to find some pilots. I can understand that inexperience pilot looking for there first job are willing to pay for the different fees. But I find OUTRAGEOUS that they also have to pay for the type rating and are afterward on a lower salary for 2 years. I would be ASHAMED to work for this company and it is because of this type of thinking that one day pilots will be pay less than a bus driver. (nothing against bus drivers!). .My guess is that the next move of Ryanair will be to ask the new guys to fly for free for one year!!! WHY NOT. Where is it going to stop?? Where are the unions??? <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

[sky9]

One way to fund the purchase is to buy the aircraft at a discount, sell them to banks at the full price, then lease them back.. .Result: Instant profit on the balance sheet. . .Air Europe did something similar years ago using Finance Leasing over 4 years followed by a sale and leaseback. BA did a buy and leaseback in the recent past.

Air Enron here we come. :) . .BTW Who's your accountant?

[Collibri]

Highlandman ,

Totaly correct and by the way the fundings that F/O's made to pay there own type rating is a complete double benifit for Ryanair because it is the Belgium governement who pays their type rating.. .Surprised???. .Anything is possible in this world today.

<img src="cool.gif" border="0"> <img src="redface.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

[Fonck]

HighlandMan,

That's a good one ! Some airlines did it in the same way, a couple of years ago ... and went on bankrupcy, like Air Liberte in France. Or lost the contracts, like Atlas in the UK.. .You are perfectly right : WHERE ARE THE UNIONS ?

Sky9,

Can you really believe that today, any banker will buy an airplane, and lease it to a lowcost operator ?

Cheers,

--------------------------------------------------. .Look through the window <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[maxalt]

Highlandman...."Where are the unions?"

The answer is that O'Leary sacked them...and we stood by and let it happen.

Then BALPA tried to establish a constituency...and they were rejected by us.

Now the local group of IALPA in Aer Lingus is under final attack by their management, and if they lost their battle then the executive of IALPA will be dissolved.

There will then be no pilot unions whatever in Dublin, which is exactly what MOL and ALT management are praying for.

If you think things are bad now...you ain't seen nothing like whats gonna happen then. <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

[Red-liner]

BillyFish2,

I think you will find that individuals like FlyingIrishman and myself will probably agree with statements such as MOL being a bit of a ********, that when it came to the formation of pilots unions that the pilot body generally showed the spinal attributes of a jellyfish and that when it comes to customer service Ryanair does leave a bit of a bitter taste in the mouth. In other words there wouldn't be to much argument about statements that are at least loosely based on the truth.

However, Ryanair bashing has become quite popular and we have had to put up with crap such as a passenger paying £20 for a sandwich, passengers complaining that they were delayed for legitimate safety reasons, passengers complaining that after having spent a whole £30-£40 quid for a return ticket to Europe there happened to be a distinct shortage of caviar and champers when they got on board and the latest being the 737-200 with more than 130 seats.

Maybe now you have some idea as to why the occassional short fuse is displayed in this forum.

With regard to your latest post I don't think you will find row26 on a 200 so you must have been on an 800 or another airline entirely (Ryanair have the navy tail with the yellow harp on it).

To conclude, I also read your profile and saw that you are and enginer (engineer????) and I'm fairly certain that an engineer should be able to tell the difference between a 200 and an 800. Please tell me that you work for the green guys in Dublin so that I may sleep easy at nights. <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

[ElNino]

Looks like plenty of the new 73's could be Germany based:

Ryanair reportedly in talks with German airports

Last updated: 25-01-02, 11:05

Ryanair has been quoted as saying the firm is talking to eight German airports about expanding its attack on rival Lufthansa's home market.

"We want to expand strongly in this market and are currently negotiating with eight German airports," Ryanair chief executive Mr Michael O'Leary told a German news agency.

Ryanair has said in the past it wanted to fly to four or five German airports next year compared to just two destinations now and was particularly looking at southern Germany and the Berlin region. It has said it aims to begin German domestic flights in 2003.

The remarks come as Lufthansa fights a court battle against Ryanair, Europe's biggest budget airline, in a bid to prevent the Irish firm from using the expression "Frankfurt-Hahn" in its promotion campaign for its German service.

Hahn is located some 60 miles from Frankfurt, and Lufthansa has argued Ryanair is misleading customers.

Mr O'Leary was also quoted as saying an order of 100 new Boeing 737s, placed yesterday, would mean employing an additional 800 pilots, 2,000 cabin crew and 500 engineers.

In an effort to counter Ryanair's rapid assault on the German market, national carrier Lufthansa said earlier this week it may consider launching a budget airline.

But Mr O'Leary is not unduly concerned. "The sooner the better. Ryanair will be bigger than Lufthansa in six years' time," he was quoted as saying.

from Ireland.com

[Scottie]

Gee, they'll give a degree to anyone these days :) <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

Scottie BSc Hons (lower division) <img src="frown.gif" border="0"> <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[Gaza]

Love him or loathe him, MOL is a very astute businessman. He has got a great price from Boeing becasue they are in the 5hit and need to keep the line working. MOL also knows that in a year or so demand for new aircraft will pick-up. At that time don't be surprised to see him selling some of his options at a very tidy profit.

[Red-liner]

Billy my boy,

Your direct quote was "Ryanair have seats for a lot more than 130 on the 732's I've been on" so please let's not try and pass the buck on to the Irish Times now. You say you claim to know the difference between a 732 and a 738 but your above statement clearly proves that it isn't so.

By the way congrats on your first class honours degree, I last saw one of them in a cracker I pulled last Christmas.

[lgtjanssen]

I've one question does this new order replace the previous order of 45 new B737-800 or is it an addition to the previous order? Ryanair reports that delivery starts in 2002. However, from the previous order there are still 7 to delivered in 2002 and at least 2 in 2003 and more later. Moreover this order (the previous order) was said to be the replacement order for the B737-200 and now this order is the replacemnet order.

I'm beginning to get the feeling that the number 100 consists of both renegotiated orders and "real new" orders.

[Capt PPRuNe]

Just thought I'd point the protagonists in this thread, the ones who would rather throw insults at each other in public (must be an ego thing) rather than by email, to the closing post in the <a href="http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=017491&p=2" target="_blank">Fun and games at Schipol</a> thread before this one goes the same way.

Would all the 'enthusiasts' that want to argue over how many less rivets there are between a 200 and an NG or whatever please do everyone a favour and start a thread about it in the Tech log forum. Try and stick to the topic and if someone posts something that you are not happy with please go and purchase a dictionary and a thesaurus and post a response that would pass as coming from someone with a bit more than a kindergarden diploma!. . <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

[interested]

Tsk tsk, Skipper [quote]purchase a dictionary and a thesaurus and post a response that would pass as coming from someone with a bit more than a kindergarden diploma!<hr></blockquote>

I've just checked out my versions of the purchases you suggest and I respectfully submit that you were so hot under the collar that you have mis-spelt the word kindergarten. Bad show, Skipper. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[OneWorld22]

For those inquiring about funding, the deal is being financed by US exporters bank EXIM. They will fund 85 per cent of the purchase price and Ryanair will pay the 15 per cent balance out of its own cash. Because the payouts will be spread over the eight years of the contract the deal will put no immediate pressure on Ryanair which has cash of €700 million and a strong operating cashflow. The first payment on signing the contact was for just 1 per cent of the contract.

A brilliant deal then by MOL, insiders are estimating discounts of about 40 to 45 per cent bringing the cost to Ryanair of the 150 aircraft down to between $4.95 billion and $5.4 billion.

[Flame]

OK Guys.....

Like MOL or RYR or not, you gotta hand it to the company..it is doing well in these testing times for all companies, making money and has a healthy balance sheet.

Now, before I get "flamed" from those who obviously know a lot more about everything than I do..!!! Me thinks it best to work for a company that offers crews a chance to make money, than work at a company that is hellbent on firing crews with minimum compensation

I have never known a thread anywhere on this site to provoke such deep feelings of resentment , as anything to do with Ryanair or MOL <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[Azrael]

Think Big? This is a gamble for Ryanair.It is in a situation in which it MUST EXPAND and fast!It is becoming a victim of it's own success.. .Firstly it has a very big bank balance,if it wants to provide a return to it's shareholders they cant just put the money into the bank and hope to live off the interest,they have to find new ways to generate income,whilst also lessening their reliance on too small a market (i.e. the british isle's). .So what do they do?. .They take a risk,and expand aggressively,into a very dormant low-fares market, such as mainland Europe.. .Two thing's can happen,either,One, they become a very succesful operation,or Two,they risk massive problems,such as legal objections/logistical and some cultural differences.Make no mistake about it,This is not going to be easy for Ryanair.. .I truely believe that in about 10 years from now we will not see avaition in the same light as we do today.Changes are already happening,and will continue for the foreseeable future.Who Knows what airlines will be operating?With very strong rumours about BA/KLM merging and the repercussions for both airlines that will come about,allied with several other so called flag carriers about to adopt a new structure(possibly either reverting to low fares or feeder airlines,e.g.BMI/TAP/EI/DAT)the whole airline map of europe will change.MOL is taking a very bold step here and it will either work out OK or it will end in tears.I hope for all involved that we start changing our mentality about avaition or we at least admit that it has to be updated.

[evolante]

Oneworld22 - you are right in one sense - EximBank are offering Export Credit Guaratees - however they are not the bank or banks funding the deal

*** So who are these Banks, I ask again? ***

[sky9]

After Enron, I wouldn't have thought anyone believes Balance Sheets anymore; just keep moving the money.

[Roadtrip]

Ryanair will be successful for a few years. Then the employees who are being exploited will grow discontent. I personally haven't met a Ryanair pilot yet that had anything good to say about the company. All had the attitude that they were stuck with a third rate company and payscale. If you're desperate enough, I guess you'll work for anything.

Another case of the English exploiting the poor Irish. MOL is an Englishman . . right?

[ 26 January 2002: Message edited by: Roadtrip ]</p>

[Carpe]

I have total respect for Ryanair pilots, my anger is not with them.

It is however disgraceful how Ryanair, with O'Leary's blessing, is behaving with regard to pilot recruitment. The unions may not be able to touch him, but O'Leary has not heard the last from the pilot workforce yet. If he really wants his airline to survive he would need to start thinking about how to keep the pilots he has now, never mind recruiting 800 more.

I too have never heard a Ryanair pilot with a good word to say about the Company so presumably, as soon as they can get out, they will. Let's see who's paying who to come for interview at Ryanair then, when normality returns to our industry and the pile of CVs on his desk runs thin. It'll cost you a grand for me to check my filofax, Mr O'Leary and I'm not talking Euros either. And no, I don't have a 737 rating, nor do I intend to buy one. Nor in fact do I intend to work for an outfit which treats its professional workforce with such utter contempt.

What goes around, comes around Mr O'Leary, and you'll get yours.

[ 26 January 2002: Message edited by: Carpe ]</p>

[partagas]

As one of the earlier threads stated, it will be interesting to see how the battle between the low cost carriers shapes up following this order.. . There will seemingly always be the market for the cheapest available seat, desired by the student backpacker or the occasional traveller , or the 21 st century "Scrooge", the type of person who hoards one pence pieces and mourns the demise of the decimal half penny. It is a substantial market because there are plenty of customers who fit the aforementioned profiles, especially the latter category,those undesirables who also take all the lavatory paper from public conveniences rather than actually buy a roll to use at home!. . Therefore , one should agree that the superb and ubiquitous 737 is the ideal choice for the existing customer base. The NG is a highly commendable re hash of a very dated design and offers real and tangible benefits over the "classics", not just cosmetic improvements.. . However, it is not such an asset if Ryanair really does wish to make significant inroads into the markets of the national scheduled carriers.. . This market comprises regular travellers in both business and economy classes - " informed customers".. . If easyjet or Go offered A319/320 cabin dimensions and flew the service to the destination country,s primary rather than tertiary airports ,passengers might be taken from both Ryanair and the expensive full service carriers- a successful compromise operation.. . I see a further risk in Ryanair,s strategy, (whilst conceding that Michael O, Leary is a more proven businessman than I!) It would seem that even the ranks of the ultra low cost customer may be gradually depleted as the history of the development of consumerism clearly indicates that the purchaser becomes progressively more discerning. Whilst customer requirements regarding electrical goods and consumables have risen very rapidly, very cheap but very uncomfortable and inconvenient air travel has been accepted. The tide has been changing progressively but slowly in this respect.The current thread regarding compensation to a JMC passenger and concerns about DVT may accelerate the pace of this change.

[ 28 January 2002: Message edited by: partagas ]

[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: partagas ]</p>

[AiryFairy]

EINino - I think 'Roadtrip', despite being from America, is being ironic about MOL being an Englishman. I am sure he will answer for himself.

[FlyingV]

I am very interested by the comments made about how Ryanair will lose its appeal as circumstances change - harder to recruit pilots, higher demands from customers etc.

If Ryanair were to remain exactly as it is now, this might be true - but why assume Ryanair will always be the same ?

As a tightly run organization, with what appears to be a small management team that makes all the decisions, I would imagine that Ryanair (and all the budget airlines) are in by far the best position to change to suit the environment. They will do so far quicker than the established flag carriers thereby staying ahead of the game.

This is why I believe the budget carriers have a brighter future than the current big airlines - adaptability & flexibility.

Regards,. .V.

[andy.duthie]

I think that the press conference to tell the world about their new a/c was one of the worst timed events in history.. .Only 1 day prior they tell Servisir they have lost the contract to Groundstar (who bought it) and there may be 300+ jobs to go.. .MOL is a **** and I hope he comes down to earth with a big thud, . . <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

[ 26 January 2002: Message edited by: andy32 ]

[ 26 January 2002: Message edited by: andy32 ]</p>

[Roadtrip]

AiryFairy & ElNino -. .Er.... yea, just my lame try at humor. The Dakota high plains don't do much for makin' a body's funnin' sufisticated ner understandable. Sure don't wanna make no Irishmen mad, neither. We got lots of 'em over here and I know they've got a powerful temper.

[OneWorld22]

Roadtrip and carpe, you obviously haven't met many Ryanair Pilots then, I personally know a big gang of them actually here in Dublinand they have no major complaints at all. In fact a large amount of them have no problem with this new fangled work philosophy, "Work hard and get paid well"

Scary stuff I know....

[Roadtrip]

I haven't met any management pilots, only a few line pilots. Of course, right now, everybody is just happy to have a job. What is the monthly work schedule and salary for Ryanair line pilots?

[ 28 January 2002: Message edited by: Roadtrip ]</p>

[JP5A]

Growing an airline by 25% p.a.thus needing 100 new aircraft and all the new debt that brings is all well and good for Ryan and easy as long as the status quo remains the same.. .It is economic fact that this sort of growth in sales and profit is only sustainable in the short term.Why? Because other entrepreneurs,not necessarily involved in aviation at the moment,or established carriers will move into this market until the low frills industry becomes a commodity like everything else. There is no customer loyalty in no frills,-price reigns supreme and the internet makes cost comparison that much easier.The fact that MOL and Stellios court publicity on a daily basis and publish their expansion plans to all and sundry will only hasten this process.. .They would better serve their sharholders by saying nowt.

[PAXboy]

Many, many interesting points, such as:

Partagas suggesting Primary airports and A319/320s to suit the taste of the pax, as their expectations increase.

I agree but it is not just the pax, whose taste wants better things ... so do the carrier's management!

Flying V suggests that the small, closely knit management group will be in a better state than larger companies to move quickly.

I agree but the small managment, once it has proved itself, wants to prove itself on a larger scale! It's the same basic premise behind being world champions at footbal or invading countries. The temptation to get bigger and prove that they can do it 'all over again the next stage up' is what, ultimately, brings most companies down.

But then, if small companies stayed small, they would never get so overblown that they go bust or get taken over and allow someone new in at the bottom to re-invent the wheel!

MoL, like any other will eventually over reach himself. PLEASE NOTE, I do not seek this and have no satisfaction in saying so and have no involvement with any carrier.

It is simply that some 23 years of working in all major areas of commerce and the public sector, have shown me that he will. It is human nature and MoL is very much a human being.

So, good luck, just look for the right time to jump off the bandwagon! Although, I doubt that will be for a few years yet.

[schwabn]

As far as standards are concerned, the 737-800 will live up to the A319/320/321 any day. The . .-200's will only be flying for another 2-3 years now and then there will only be -800's in the fleet.

Funnily enough though, as far as continuing success is concerned, years ago people said the same sort of things about Southwest and Herb Kelleher and they are now operating on a much larger scale than Ryanair, even after the expansion. Like it or not, MOL is here to stay!

[Paterbrat]

Attracted by El Nino's positive title it was refreshing to hear some good news in a sector that has been until recently plunged in gloom. Also enlightening has been to hear informed debate over a fast growing area of the industry. . .Ryanair has along with other low cost operations given a much needed boost to the aviation and travel industry and as such is to be applauded. Salaries may well be low, but it is getting pilots into the air instead of pounding the streets and sending off endless CV's, and I have been there.

I was also struck by a minor eddy in the general drift of the thread that did catch the eye. A quote and a general comment by a contributer drew a fairly savage response containing a completely unwarrented and gratuitous insult. In this he was supported by a third who percieved the first commentator as a sad **** slagging off for no reason. Neither of these gentlemen were either correct, or had good reason for their beligerent attitudes. A fairly restrained, IMHO, response gathered more insults. Insulted gentleman reveals that he is a regular, and satisfied customer of the very airline that these sad individuals appear to wok for, and surprise surprise, gets insulted yet again.. . The one and possibly two crewmembers of the airline in question would seem to have displayed coplete lack of judgement, in addition to appalling manners. The screenname of the one who does the loadsheet every day sums up his persona very well, right up to the limit on everything, lack of judgement and manners prominent among them. All his colourful descriptions would in fact seem to apply to himself perfectly.

[ 28 January 2002: Message edited by: Paterbrat ]</p>

[Donkey Duke]

What??? Can anyone understand that? I fell asleep in the middle. That guy sounds smart.. .I bet he went to Oxford (The University...not the flight school)

Thanks. Donkey Duke <img src="cool.gif" border="0"> <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[Paterbrat]

It's quite OK Donkey if the name fits wear it with pride

[Red-liner]

Bored now!!!

Let's see, what on earth could rhyme with Paterbrat.

Methinks you have too much desert sand between your ears.

[Paterbrat]

I had very carefully avoided any mention of names. A point that Donkey missed; a case of letting facts speak for themselves.. . Since it appears that the two protagonists recognise the facts, allow me to ask if it is not difficult to sign the load sheet with the pen in a trotter, and whether or not the eyesight isn't obscured by that wee curly tail gettin in your eyes??. . And for the other gentleman now, a fair journy to you, and never mind how many seats there are, it matters not a jot.. . As for you, bored wee piggy; you sir are fu**ing rude. The sand, it bothers me not one little bit.

[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: Paterbrat ]

[ 30 January 2002: Message edited by: Paterbrat ]</p>