New Delta UK routes?

[jabird]

...the airline confirms that it would like to introduce further ex-UK services for next year but is constrained by a lack of suitably equipped aircraft ex-domestic Boeing 767s those available earmarked for proposed South American services. If these routes were not to be approved an extension of the Gatwick and Manchester fights are the most likely scenario, but new UK gateways have not been ruled out.

Ok, so its a big if, but if more routes were offered, would BHX or GLA be more likely?

[averytdeaconharry]

The priorities have got to be Salt Lake City to LGW, followed by Cincinnatti to MAN, followed by Atlanta to BHX and GLA. That lot would provide annual utilisation for 6 aircraft.

[jabird]

How big is the market for SLC to LGW? It is certainly one of the larger US cities not served by direct flights from the UK. Would it be aimed at the winter market, or year round?

[This Charming Man]

Delta have applied for JFK/MAN/JFK , starting 27th March 05.

brgds
TCM

[pwalhx]

Delta have tried JFK/MAN before and pulled of the route.

It would be nice to see CVG and a west cost destination out of Manchester.

Wasn't there also talk at one time of a second daily totation ex MAN to ATL.

[semisonic]

yes there was. If you follow the thread on manchester happenings, there is a link to the company responsible for slot allocations. It says Delta applied for 2x daily slots to ATL for summer 2003, but unfortunately cancelled.

I agree that Manchester needs to see a West coast route!

[squibbler]

From purely a motivated self interest point of view: MAN-BOS-MAN would be nice. Don't really care who serves the route.

[semisonic]

coming back next summer i believe with American!! Should be upgraded to a 767??

[pwalhx]

Would be nice to see BOS back and MIA run all year by AA, will BA let them though?

[sparkymarky]

The success of the summer services from Glasgow to Philadelphia and Chicago has certainly indicated that Atlanta would be a profitable route.

[tictoc]

Whats wrong with LHR ? have they ever tried for slots there ?

[future_pilot17]

I think BHX would be a good idea, following CO's success. We need another american major at BHX all our new routes seem to be heading east rather than west.....:ok:

[IanH]

GLA - ATL would be a good idea surely ........ the other three US carrier routes from Glasgow are to Chicago, Philadelphia and Newark ....... Nothing direct to the Southern states of the USA .........

[bean_counter]

tictoc

"Whats wrong with LHR ? have they ever tried for slots there ?"

Delta are not allowed LHR operations under the Bermuda2 ASA, in force until USA-EU open skies arrives......

don't hold your breath

Same for CO, NW, US. Only UA and AA allowed

[WHBM]

Delta are not allowed LHR operations under the Bermuda2 ASA, .....

Same for CO, NW, US. Only UA and AA allowed

Actually it's 2 airlines from each country allowed (so BA, VS, AA, UA). When agreement first done it was Pan Am and TWA of course from the US side, who sold their rights for considerable sums.

One of the key reasons the US agreed to Bermuda in the first place is that likely competition from the UK at the time was B.Cal and Laker, both wedded to Gatwick and not interested in LHR, so the US side thought they would be 2 to 1 there. Virgin moving in to LHR changed all that.

Interesting to speculate therefore if United really start to be liquidated which other US airline would pick things up. The rights have to be worth a considerable sum, which unfortunately US carriers do not seem to have at the moment.

However because of the geographical restrictions in the agreement, Delta could not serve Atlanta from Heathrow, nor Orlando or Fort Lauderdale (which must be other close contenders for them) even if they bought the United rights. They could do JFK, Cincinnati and Salt Lake from there, plus any they bought (both current carriers do JFK already of course).

[jabird]

WHBM,

"Interesting to speculate therefore if United really start to be liquidated which other US airline would pick things up."

That's a good question.

They all seem to be losing money right now - CO are less unstable than most, although they've reported losses too recently IIRC. They have a stronghold at EWR (a much better airport IMHO, but not sure if all pax would agree with that), and have been building up an excellent network of regional routes. LHR would give them a dominant position on UK - New York, but I don't know if it would be worth the considerable investment for them. Can't see US or NWA making much use of the slots - maybe BMI could change themselves to USMI and go for them:*

[Daza]

Birmingham must surely be in the running MAN, GLA etc are already well served to USA. BHX only has CO at the moment and the 2 daily services are generating 60-70% increase in BHX-US traffic.
Daza

[eurostar builder]

How about Bournemouth now there on a roll.

(They have got a flight from Las Vegas due in today)

[future_pilot17]

I have to agree with Daza:ok: :D
Any new route launched by a USA airline would probably do well.

[MarkBHX]

CO used a 764 into BHX today and from the continental website it looked quite full so BHX is obviously working for CO, about time they had some competition!

P.S. Wednesday isn't a day CO operate 2x daily

[future_pilot17]

Yeah CO did use a 764, it also said they were gonna use one yesterday so i went up to get a few pics, sadley no 764:sad: :mad: but the two 752s were there before 10am which was odd considering the secxond flight dosnt arrive till later............

Along with the possibility of Delta or someone else starting up do you think that CO would start a new route to Houston or somthing?

[MarkBHX]

I think the 2nd flight is due in around 9.30ish. I wouldn't have thought Houston will be happening anytime soon,could it be made off Bhx's runway? AA to Boston has been talked about before so it is a possibility.

[future_pilot17]

I'm not sure about the Houston flight....EK get the 772 off the BHX runway but i'm really not sure about the distances.
I think AA could be a real possibility and maybe US if they emerge from there money probsm who knows though.

BHX really need a runway extension, it would open up a whole load of new flights.

[MarkBHX]

Yeah long haul seems to be the way forward in recent years, thanks to CO and EK. Apparently it can be a bit of a squeeze for the EK to get out of Bhx so a runway extension would be crucial so it can pick up the long haul market, like MAN have done.

[future_pilot17]

Yeah well as long as they can get off the BHX runway for now, who cares lol :ok:
I agree, the runway length has limited who wants to fly to BHX and what equipment they use, when i was up at BHX yesterday i noticed they are building another exit taxiway of RWY 15 and i got a picture. They are also going to build a high speed turn-off taxiway.
They should get on with the runway extension while they are at it
:)

[jabird]

Would I be right in saying that the same distance is less of a problem flying east because of the prevailing winds?

BHX runway extension is a much larger project than just adding a few metres to the taxiway. Would need re-alignment of the A45. Would certainly open up many more route options & avoid a lot of hassles going through London, but the usual self-interest groups will add several years to the process, as they won't see the wider picture.

[future_pilot17]

I heard they were actually considering having the A45 going under the new extended part of the runway so planes would literlly be landing over the A45......self interest groups will cause hassle.
What is the minimum length a runway needs to be to allow say a fully loaded 744 to get off the deck?, BHX's main runway is 8654ft i think....

[sbanni]

The EK would have plenty of runway spare at BHX if it just took pax- the main reason it seems to use so much of the runway is due to the large volume of freight that it takes as well.

Plus the 773 operated into BHX last xmas!

Rgds
Scott

[future_pilot17]

Yeah thats true, i have seen the large amount of freight they remove sad that the 772 won't be around but then we do get the twice-daily A330 service:ok:

Update on Continental, CO did operate a 764 today, ship N59053

[MarkBHX]

Strange you should say that as bhx is not known for its freight! Does East Midlands not have a dedicated freighter service to Dubai or the middle east?

[future_pilot17]

Well BHX really dosnt have a major frieght operation but when viewed from T1 and the Outdoor Viewing Area i can see the large amount of "Emirates Sky Cargo" they remove, it drives past the viewing area lol

[MarkBHX]

I will look out for that next time i'm in :ok:

Getting back to Delta though, how are they financially these days as I guess they won't be expanding too much if they are in trouble?

About time they expanded in the UK though!:D

[BHXviscount]

On the runway extension at BHX, it won't be for another 5 years as the board think the current length is suffiecient for now......

[future_pilot17]

Any idea what the runway would be extended to BHXviscount?

[BHXviscount]

Plan is to extend 33 and A45 coventry rd to go under, although there was a plan for re-routing the A45 a while back. 475mtrs was a figure heard but in feet I have heard it will end up as 10,000ft+!!
All depends on solihull council and that peoples champion Jim Ryan(cnlr for Bickenhill)-very anti airport, except fot CVT as wanted expansion there rather than BHX.

[chiglet]

When I was an ATCA at Brum in 1969/1970, there was talk then of an "underpass" for the A45 so the r/w could be extended. :(
fp117, all pax fights carry freight if they can, even the E145s carry a few kilos of freight and mail. The "longer" routes are [almost] subsidised by freight. 200 pax at £1 per kilo isn't as good as 250kilos @£15 per kilo [my figs, not airline:ok: ] I have know airlies to "offload" pax so that the could carry freight
watp,iktch

[ATNotts]

Chiglet

"£15.00 per kg for freight"

I escaped from the freight industry 4 years ago, and on USA bound cargo the airlines were fighting for business as 65 pence per kg! If it's gone to as much as £ 15.00 I think I ought to get back in whilst the money's good!

That aside, the arguement is sound. On a wide-body in particular freight is a valuable earner, which is why successful carriers such as EK, SQ and LH give it such a high profile.

Andrew

[future_pilot17]

A runway 10000ft!! plus would allow any fully loaded aircraft to depart wouldnt it,:ok: .
Just worked that out, if 475mwas added to BHX's main runway that would increase the length to 10,205ft!!! i can't see that happening for a while though.........

[semisonic]

Hey I agree with all that BHX deserves a few more long haul routes.

But i do feel that BHX is up against it, and not just because of the runway. With England being so geographically small, the airlines see Manchester covering Birmingham and up, and London serving Birmginham and south!! So why incur all the costs associated with a new set-up, when passengers are no more than 2 hours from one of your services anyway?

What does everyone else think?

[future_pilot17]

Hey i agree that BHX does need some new long haul routes:ok:
I also have to agree that BHX is blocked in by the likes of bloody MAN :mad: and LHR/LGW etc. The problem is people don't like travelling down to London and up to Manchester and they wonder why the "Second City" hasn't got an airport with all these services but as mentioned above with England being so small we are boxed in.
As already seen though some airlines can make long haul services run very well, examples are CO operating from BHX twiced-daily in Summer and most of Winter aswell as from LGW and MAN, the same can also be said for EK with twice daily services next year to BHX but they also operate to MAN aswell as loads of flights to London. Long haul can work from airports that are this close together.
:ok: :) :D

[MarkBHX]

I heard that SAA were interested in bhx as they couldn't expand further at lhr and bd were interested in man, and they thought they could operate direct to jnb with the A340-200 without too many restrictions! With a flight length of 5726 miles it is further than Dubai, suggesting the runway is long enough! But if expansion to the far east (singapore etc) was to be encouraged, an extension would definately be needed!

[chiglet]

AT, as I said my figs ....example, friend [about 75k] flew MAN-JFK, cost £249 return. Same friend sent a "package" @22k.....cost £340 one way. 0.65p per k :confused: why then offload "Full fare paying pax"
fp117 The likes of bl**dy MAN "got their act together". Why do you think EMA has so much tfc? They extended their runway, built apron facilities and extended thier terminal [and are about to extend] Yes i know that baby are transferring flts to Brum, but apart from the NEC just what has Brum got?
Short[ish] runway
London less than 90 mins away
Manch less than 70 mins away
As I said earlier, Brum was "talking" about a rwy extension 30+ years ago :{
watp,iktch

[Daza]

A population of more than 1 million people (2001 cencus) the UKs second city by several hundred thousand! Oh and the West Midlands urban area with 2.5 million people. What has EMA got??? Its in the middle of nowhere thats why freight ops are allowed the runway lenghth is not the issue with freight at BHX noise restrictions are.
Daza

[BHXviscount]

As regards to BHX catchment area- more that half of Englands population are less than 3hrs drive from BHX, no other airport in the UK can better that. The potential IS there if the management were willing. I seem to remember when I was at school and the debate over Londons 3rd airport(now STN) BHX was being considered due to the recently constructed Bham int railway station built for the NEC.

AI use to serve BHX with 707s via moscow, are these licences still valid does anyone know?

anyway DL NOT to come to BHX- er runway too short!!!

BHXviscount

[we_never_change]

A lot of major (long haul) airlines are in some financial difficulties hence not wanting to start any major new services. The runway length at Birmingham is only a small part in not attracting new airlines, the current growth is in short haul/no - frills airlines which use aircraft that can currently use the runway at BHX which no difficulties. Some airlines simply do not wish to serve Birmingham.

As mentioned above, Birmingham is "geograhically challenged" being positioned between London & Manchester & both claiming to have the Midlands in their catchment areas.


WNC

[Daza]

I used to work for operations at BHX my brother is a dispatcher for BA (used to dispatch AA ex BHX) THERE ARE NO PROBLEMS WITH 767S OF ANY SERIES OPERATING FROM BHX TO EAST COAST DESTINATIONS WITH BHX RUNWAY LENGTH AS IT IS
Daza

[we_never_change]

Daza,
Correct, any series of B767 can depart from the current runway length at Birmingham, however, there may be restrictions on the amount of freight/pax carried.

It was commonly known that during American Airlines time at BHX, several times (normally hot summer mornings), either freight or passengers had to be taken off the aircraft so it could get off the runway. This doesn't make services viable if this happens on a regular basis.

WNC

[Daza]

What is your source of information We-never_change?
Daza