busting altitude

[trot]

hi,

busted an altitude in london sector on the DVR 5Y departure out of EGWU.
the controller made us aware of our mistake, no TCAS or other traffic conflict occurred because of out mistake.

we overshot our altitude not because we were unable or forgot to level off, but we totally misinterpreted the SID.

what are the procedures the caa will take to follow up in this matter, what can i do, or does it depend on, if the controller reported it?

after this incident, the SID and it's altitudes seem to be clear, but in our departure briefing we interpreted it very different. many notes on the SID made us believe that we need to get up to altitude fast.

nowhere on the SID does it say what our initial or final altitude will be, like other SIDs where it it say: e.g. initial climb to ...., neither does the ATC clearance specifically clear us to an altitude.


hope someone can help

cheers trot

[ukatco_535]

I am sitting at home reading this so I do not have a copy of the MATS part 1 with me (I'm not that sad!), and also, being a South Banker, I do not know the precise details of the SID (I would not work you until you were transferred to me at FL70 the other day)... however,

The sids that we have access to have a pictorial AND textual description of the SIDs i.e. you should have a rough picture of the track you are expected to follow, along with annotations of radials and, in boxes, altitudes that you have to be at by specific points.

Due to the interaction with the many other airfields in the the vicinity, you may well have a stepped climb, i.e. on the SID it may say, for instance, cross LON R075 D7 above 2000' then further on it may say Cross LON R075 D12 at 3000' (figures are all made up here as you can guess). This 'cross at' means you have to level off, and will probably be due to the fact that another SID crosses above your track.

Unfortunately, there are few different publishers of SID information, and some are better than others.

As far as follow up by the CAA goes, a lot of it depends on the controller. You say that TCAS was not triggered by your actions, so if it was fairly quiet and not a 'bad' bust, the controller may have elected not to report it (he is supposed to, but it's paperwork).

If it was reported, expect to get a letter from the CAA, but do not get unduly worried.

The best action if you have an incident is to try to contact the agency (i.e. TC in this instance) when you land and chat about it. WU would be able to get a phone number for you to get to the supervisors desk. You may well be able to talk to the controller involved and this sort of interaction is appreciated. (The controller will probably be cussing you for busting the SID, but if you get in touch, they will more than likely be placated and very reasonable).

If you fly out of WU on a ragular basis, or within the London TMA, it is worth trying to get a visit to the unit - it's fairly straight forward if you explain why you want the visit (i.e. you fly in the area and are interested in the mechanics of the airspace)

[SoftTop]

trot,

have a look at the UKAir Pilot stuff on http://www.ais.org.uk

You can register free and access all the UK airfield info.

A bit of a tortuous route to get to the WU stuff, but try (once logged in):

Publications then UK AIP then the link to UK AIP Package .

After that UK AIP then select (strangely enough) UK AIP then Aerodrome Data and then Aerodromes - Specific - then fill your boots!

It does need you to have Adobe Acrobat reader installed.

It'll be interesting to see you comments on how your original data stacks up against that held in the UKAIP.

Hope that helps

ST

[Barry Cuda]

As a north banker that was working yesterday shortly after a WU DVR level busted I think that I can safely say that the controller was filling in an MOR regarding the incident. Not sure what happens now with regards to the CAA investigation, though.:confused:

We have to take level busts very seriously in the TMA, especially on the SIDS, as they have the stepped climbs for separation from other SID routes. The airspace was vv busy yesterday afternoon and things like level busts really do lead on to more problems because you get completely distracted and drawn in to a small area...

On a different note thank you for "owning up" to your mistake. Openess and honesty should be an integral part of our industry so that we can all work to a common aim of safe skies.

If you want to discuss anything regarding the incident, or would like a visit to see what we do at TC, then ring 01895 426 422 and ask to speak to the GS North.:ok:

[Topofthestack]

Controllers are supposed to report level busts and most do. After an 'bust' has happened then they fill in a CAA report form which goes to CAA SRG. A copy of the original report is also sent to the ATC Investigations & Incidents department at the appropriate ATC facility. At both London Terminal Control (West Drayton) and London Area Control (Swanwick) there are investigation offices which then collate all the ATC information (which can also include a radar replay file and RT transcript) and they then try contact the airline/crew to discuss the incident and get some feedback. In many instances, the report goes to the airline Ops department or Head of Flight Safety and then is passed onto the crew for their comments. When a reply has been received, or after a suitable period if none has been forthcoming, the conclusions are passed to SRG for their action, if they consider it appropriate. The whole chain is designed to find out why level busts occur and how to prevent them. If there is a pattern of busts, or continued problems with a particular airline, then one could expect SRG/UK Flight Ops to take some further action. If there where continued problem with pilots misinterpreting the WU S.I.D charts, then contact may be made with the map publishers to agree some alteration to their format. Problems like interruptions to crew briefings, just highlight the importance of not being disturbed and their ultimate consequences.

[trot]

hi,

many thanks to all your replies.

i am planning to call the facility and see what i can do.
i am very much aware that my bust could have caused a lot of problems, fortunately it did not, and i like to work on it that it does not happen to others. an appology on my side is not enough, considering how much damage i could have caused. what distracts me the most is that prior departure i asked my F/O to verify how he understands these altitudes, and somehow we both were misled to misinterpreting all of them.

i do only fly occasionally out of london airports, aware of difficult departure procedures, even more disturbing that i misread the SID this time.

i am also concerned about licence actions, it was my first bust since i started flying 11 years ago and would hate to see that my career goes downward.

cheers trot

[PPRuNe Radar]

Licence action by the CAA is very rare. As others have said, there is more interest in finding out what helped cause the incident and then trying to take steps to prevent it happening again. Being honest with the CAA and telling them how you came to misinterpret the chart will assist greatly in this. It could be that the third party chart suppliers will also be asked by the CAA to amend their charts if they are indeed ambiguous. In which case, your honesty will help prevent others falling in to the same trap and possibly having even worse consequences.

I think the worst they will do is put a letter on your 'file' noting that you have been offered appropriate 'guidance' to prevent you doing it again.

[icemanalgeria]

I always wondered why our company sop's make us delete the altitude restrictions in the fmc sid.

I always thought that leaving them in and us the Alt window would give nice reminders when to stop climb and when to start the climb again.

Of course if a direct climb was then given FLCH could be used, and the legs page altered time permitting.

But there must be a reason not to do it this way.

[square leg]

If you're not sure about a clearance, then ask ATC to verify the correct altitude/FL (before departure/ T/O).

[Barry Cuda]

Trot

Check your PM's....

[Onan the Clumsy]

In the US, you can file a NASA form.

Any infraction that wasn't criminal and didn't result in an accident is acceptable to file a report over. You send them to NASA, they remove your identifying details and send it on to the FAA. If an action is started against you, the NASA form acts as a get-out-of-jail-free card. To avoid abuse, you can file as many as you want :hmm: but only actually use one for escape in a seven year period.

Seems like a pretty good system to me and one that will help with understanding why things go wrong.



(apologies if you already know that / have something similar in the UK)

[Spitoon]

If you're not sure about a clearance, then ask ATC to verify the correct altitude/FL (before departure/ T/O).Fine advice, but trot wasn't in any doubt.

On the licensing sode of things, if it's of any help, unless you have a licence issued by the CAA there's no licensing action that they can take. They may write to the issuing authority giving details of the incident but, as has already been stated, if you're open an honest and can show what mislead you I would doubt that anything serious will happen.

[square leg]

An ASR will do the trick, but I guess you've done that already. As said, being open and honest will sort things out.

after this incident, the SID and it's altitudes seem to be clear, but in our departure briefing we interpreted it very different. many notes on the SID made us believe that we need to get up to altitude fast.

From my own experience when I start interpreting things or believing things (and not knowing for sure), I tend to make mistakes. That's essentially what I meant with my previous post. I think it's great that we can share such experiences and learn from them. Obviously the SID plate needs improvement wrt cleared ALT's.

Have a good week.

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Not been to Northolt in a while, but am I right in saying that they append the atis broadcast to say please note that all blah blah sids level at blah blah feet? I think they do at London City.

Its a good idea - simple and doesn't cost anything

[Capt Crash]

At Northolt the clearance you are given includes 'caution step climb profile' and you are expected to read it back.