ACA & Ansett!

[amos2]

Did you see it on Telly tonight?...

how embarrassing!

[fruitloop]

No What happened ??

[Australia2]

Amos2,

For those of us O/S would you ( Or anyone else) mind putting down a brief outline.

Kind Regards,

Oz2

[bonvol]

The gist of it was that the ex Ansett employees are mightily peeved that the Ansett "tax" didn't pay them all their award entitlements. All they got was the standard redundancy provisions.

This obviously falls way short of what someone with many years of service would have got had they been made redundant under normal conditions.

Joanne Turner, an ex F/A is beating the drum to try and get John Anderson to loosen the purse strings on the left over dough and pay up. From his tone in the interview I would say there is no chance of that . The election is over .

Worth a shot though.

[Dexter]

4 years later on dose anyone excerpt the ex ansett people care.
its old news.
get over it an move on.
soiry to be hard but thats the reelty of it.

[longjohn]

Dexter,

Your compassion and empathy are truly magnanimous. It is perhaps because of general empathy like yours that John Anderson sees no public benefit in giving Ansett staff their rightful entitlements.

No doubt you, like just about every other pilot not in Ansett benefitted from the loss of our careers, so you see, to show further indifference is particularly insulting. Perhaps, in the absence of anything else you could pull your head in.

[Dexter]

what a lot of bollixs longjohn. no other employees gets specail consideraton if there company gos titsup.
so you rekon evry other pilot shud pay in to a speciel fund for youse to i surpose.
like lotsa others i read about the ansett pilot warren (not his real name) who had a million dollar worth of properties an was crying because he coudnt pay his tax. poor prick.
lotsa people loose there jobs these days. its a part a life.
stop tryin to bludge off of others.

[seymorejugs]

Ex AN staff get over it!!! you are not the only ones to have been laid off but are quite typically the biggest to complain! You guys complained like hell when AN was up and running and now you complain like hell when it collapses?? we have all been laid off but are not as fortunate as you to have it happen on an election year! Get over it you are boring us..

[TheNightOwl]

Do I detect a bit of the old "possum-stirring", amos2?

Dexter - the quality of your reply appears to match the abysmal quality of your grammar and spelling; if you have nothing but invective to offer may I request that you stay silent? Your vitriol and abuse add nothing to the discussion, on a subject of which you, obviously, have no understanding whatever.

TheNightOwl.:yuk:

[alidad]

It is very unfortunate what happened, but that is life. Most of us (including me) have lost jobs and are owed money that will never be repaid.
The hardest thing for most of these people to come to terms with is that they had pay and conditions that were far beyond their education , training and experience. It would be interesting to find out how many have been able to achieve matching salaries etc outside of ANsett; not many I dare suggest.

At then end of the day if losing your job is the worst thing to happen to you then you are very lucky. If your "job" was also your identity and image then GET A LIFE!!

The levy should NEVER have been collected in the first place. It is OBSCENE to expect an average wage earner/traveller to cough up money for people who in many instances were earning six figure salaries for an extended period. If the workers were too stupid to put some away for a rainy day; or maintained a lifestyle beyond what they could afford then welcome or to reality-it bites!!

Let go and get on with it

[The Librarian]

I must admit even though I am ex Ansett and miss the company alot I am over all this redundancy stuff. I'm still owed quite a bit but if I never hear from the two Marks again I wouldn't be upset.

It always amazed me the way the pre dispute pilots complained and in some ways now I can understand it but as I always say if you can't let time heal your wounds you are going to lead a fairly miserable life.

It would be nice to see another 20K in the bank account but after four years there is no point holding my breath.

I do still miss the airbus though but again surprised myself last week by knocking back a job flying one. :\ Time moves on

[Whiskery]

In a very basic and banal way, Dexter does have a point. :cool:

[bonvol]

I think they also said on the program that 30 ex Ansett employees had committed suicide.

[socks]

And since '98 there has probably been 30 Qantas staff who have committed suicide.

[Australia2]

Bonvul,

Thanks for the insight - the dissapointment has heeled over now and dont give a lot of thought to the past. Very happy how it has all panned out, mind you wouldn't like to do it all again. I do however wish those more desperate were able to receive more of the money collected ON THEIR BEHALF !! To me, the levy paying public have really been done over here, not just the ex AN'ers.
Dexter, you must truly be a misereble soul. Don't tell me........ failed the Ansett interview? I'm betting a certain bearded english chap is your secret hero - for all his services to Australian aviation.

[Keg]

There probably has been 30 socks but I'd be extremally suprised if they all did it as a result of the ONE event! :rolleyes: :(

[The Matirx]

Full support to the ex AN staff.

The bottom line is that the money was collected by the govt for a specific purpose. That money should therefore be used for that purpose.

[faheel]

The bottom line is that the goverment only ever agreed to pay the ansett staff the normal redundancy payout, because at that time they were going to get virtually nothing.

That the levy raised far exceeded that is irrelevant.

I for one was mightly pissed off that my money was being used to pay Ansett workers their entitlements, they were not a govement organisation and were not entitled to goverment funds.

That they in fact got private funds to pay them really stuck in my craw.
What was previously said by Dexter is quite correct and the excess raised should be repaid to the people who paid it, failing that it should at the very least be used to offset some of the airport taxes we now pay.

[Buster Hyman]

Okay, here goes...

SEESA = Govt funds paid to AN staff - Good
AN Tax = Insurance to cover Govt losses for SEESA - Bad (for punters)
70% paid out = Pretty much all we'd get - Good (better than sweet FA)
Govt profit = Monies collected above & beyond SEESA - Bad (SEESA was well covered & tax should've been lifted earlier)

The excess collected as AN Tax should not be going to employees of AN. (Me) The Govt ensured our initial redundancy payments (SEESA) to hide the fact that there was woefully inadequate protection for workers in the event of redundancies. Also, it highlights how crooks like Murdoch can get away with anything.

My perfect result = Govt covers all loopholes in redundancy issues including Super. AN's legacy is that this deficiency in our system is fixed, meaning that tools like Dexter don't go through what Ansett, Compass, Kodak, Arnotts etc, etc, etc staff have already been through.

:rolleyes:

[amos2]

Well, I don't think any deficiency has been fixed, with all due respect Buster, (being a Bombers supporter and all that!) and I'm not too sure that there was any deficiency to be fixed in the first place.

Any company going broke, for whatever reason, has a devastating affect on staff and shareholders. If it happens to be caused by mis-management or some one sticking their fingers in the till it hurts even more!

But, the bottom line is, it has happened before and will happen again and is no different than any other investment you might make in life!

Should we talk about HIH, Harris Scarfe, One Tel and many others where many people lost jobs and/or heaps of dough and received no Government support? Sure, I know our PM helped his brother Stan out a few years ago, and, many years ago, the Victorian state government imposed a fuel levee to assist the share holders of Farrows Pyramid Society, at taxpayers expense. That was wrong then as any support for Ansett, at taxpayers expense, is wrong now!

Lost money on a property investment or on the share market recently? Expect the Government to help cover your losses? Yeah, sure you do and so do I but,...in our dreams!! :ok:

[Ultralights]

I am just peeved off that every time i fly i have to pay another TAX under the guise of an ansett levy! even though i worked for the red rat, i still respected and had a few friends in ansett, who have all moved on with their lives. even though they are still owed some money, they were still better off than most employees of companies that fold.
the ansett issue is over, and so should the tax!

[Chilli Muscle]

Faheel,

I guess you were fairly upset by the NATIONAL TEXTILES redundancy payments also ?.

[RIVER1]

Actually I did not believe Faheel had paid much Australian tax over the years.

[SawThe Light]

Didn't I read somewhere that Ansett Airlines was a New Zealand owned company? Don't shoot if it wasn't, it is just my recollection.

If it did indeed have foreign owners, it seem strange that you Australian taxpayers should be so generous. We wouldn't do that here without a fight.

[Buster Hyman]

No, it hasn't been fixed Amos & that's partially my point. The Government shouldn't have felt the need to step in. Mis management caused the problem, full stop. A lax system where workers entitlements can go missing has caused as much heartache as the collapse itself.

Such a large collapse, in comparison to others, should highlight to one & all how precarious all of our livelihoods are. We should talk about HIH, OneTel etc, because these companies didn't get the support the Govt gave to AN staff. I think AN got so much support for two reasons, 1. 16000 voters, 2. Federal election at the time.

Saw the light Right you are. AN was 100% owned by ANZ. They paid 150million to the AN administrators to stop being sued and exempted themselves from further action (from the administrators). The NZ govt. stepped in and propped ANZ up to cover the effect of their mis management.

[Trollywally]

Not one cent of the ticket tax has gone to ansett employees.. the tax was raised and then LENT to the administrators to pay entitlements but has since been paid back to the Govt from ongoing sale of assets... so every cent raised from the "ANSETT TAX" now sits in govt coffers

Yes at the time of there demise Ansett was fully owned by Air New Zealand (from about the late 90s) But for well over 60 years before that it was a proud oz company which employed over 16000 Australians.

How do you create a small business??
Give a Kiwi a big business and wait.

[fugitive]

Must agree with faheel;they were a private overseas company,so why should we pick up the tab.
It is obscene to have to pay their redundancy payments,no one did that for me when I lost my job,so suffer in silence .
What really scares the S$#& out of me ,is to find out how many of these people topped themselves for something like losing a job.How would these people handled the stress of an emergency;it makes you wonder.
Get a life you whingers::{

[misstrolleydolly]

Fugitive may I suggest that you take 5 mins to read the previous post on this subject before you go and crawl back under your rock. It is obviously a subject u know nothing about, so therefore you need help understanding what has happened.
1. Read Trolleywallys post
2. People didnt just loose a job, they lost there family, wife and house, some lost everything, whether it is a Ansett, Qantas or Virgin worker it shouldnt really matter. People react differently, I survived it all fine, maybe you did too, guess we where lucky, but not everyone is the same.
3. The Australian Government said it would collect the ticket tax "for the Ansett workers", they have done just that ,they did lend the administrators some money to give to us, but have been repaid, so there they havent given us any money, I agree that the ordinary Australian shouldnt have to pay the $10 ticket tax, but maybe the government can help you on that issue. The Australian public have been misled, that is you if you have actually paid any.....
4. Not everyone that has committed suicide worked in situations where they would have to deal with a emergency, suicide isnt just confined to aircrew.
If you need any further information please feel free to ask I am sure that there are many people to help you out with as much information as you need

[Gnadenburg]

fugitive

Come home!

You sound as horrible as the locals you live ( exist ) amongst.

[CallButton]

Thank you Trollywally and misstrolleydolly!

Being pprune, one would assume that we would have slightly more insight and knowledge into the Ansett Levy and how the government has misled the general public into believing that they have paid out worker entitlements. They have not, as has been explained.

Stop generalising about the Ansett workers . Some believe that they should raise the issue in public but the majority are not whingers and have not asked for anything.

And for those of you mightly pissed off , waiting for sheepish retractions and apologies...

[Ralph the Bong]

It amuses me no end to see morons such as Fugitive(keep running, mate :p ) et al pontificating on a subject that they know very little about.

Entitlements for Ansett employees were simply what was due unto us under the law .

I am aware of 2 Pilots who topped themselves in the aftermath of these events and in both cases, there were issues that involved financial difficulties in combination with family breakdown. 2 FAs that I know of also did themselves in. Another was a CSO in Sydney. In these last 3 cases, all had found difficulty in obtaining what they would have considered 'meaningful' employment.

For the younger punters out there in prooonland, people over 45 years old find it almost impossible to find work that offers parrallel responsibilities and renumeration to their previous position once they are retrenched. I spent time doing a menial sh!t job after AN and found that I was working with some very well qualified people who had been retrenched from other industries and were unable to obtain other work simply because they were considered 'old'. One guy had an MBA and another had been a Finance Manager at*******. What a sad waste of human resource and experience.

I think, however, that we should never forget that the Australian Govenment acted to prevent Singapore Airlines from injecting capital into Ansett by way of increasing its equity stake in Air NZ. By doing this Messrs. Howard, Wilton-Moore and Anderson(and others) effectively stole the bread from the mouths of the children in 16,000 families. This was done under the guise of micro-economic reform and to protect Qantas from those mean Singaporians. The fallout from this 'reform' has been an increase in ticket prices, decreasing levels of service and enhanced profits for the airlines. Our careers, livelihoods and familiy stability sacrificed on the alter of politics to the gods of big-business.

Just remember, next time you get retrenched(downsized, rightsized, Jeffed, DCMed or whatever) somebody will probably be getting a bonus. And quite likely, they will be bidding to buy your house that you can no longer afford to live in.
:8

[amos2]

Well, what a load of nonsence from Bong, currently flying in Nam on about 7,000 dollars US a month, tax free???!!! (convert that yourself if you're interested). And also have a think about the exchange rate a couple of years ago when Bong was also in Nam!(Clue: Try 50c in the dollar!)

Anyway, forget Bong. The jury is well and truly in on this one!... The taxpayer should not have supported Ansett staff with the demise of that company!

So, hopefully, the aggrieved staff might have a rethink and quietly disappear into the woodwork, like the staff of so many companies before them who have lost as much, if not more!

After all, back in 89, the Government of the the day, led by the biggest disaster of a PM of all time (a man by the name of RJ Hawke, in case you might have forgotten) elected to inject $100M of taxpayers money into Ansett because of an industrial dispute! (Never been done before, will never be done again!)

This same disaster of a PM also gave Ansett the free use of the Australian Air Force to transport civilian passengers from A to B. (Let's not talk about the insurance issue and the fact that this will never be done again!)

And, of course, we could also talk about the overnight changes to the immigration rules that our erstwhile GG of the day agreed to, to allow illegal foreign workers to enter the country and take the jobs of Australians! Supported, I might add, by the majority of Ansett staff!!

So, after all this, they are still seeking assistance from the taxpayer? As I said at the beginning, the jury is well and truly in on this one!!!

QED!!

[Buster Hyman]

What you're saying amos is that we should get over it....okay...you first!;) :p

[TheNightOwl]

I wondered why it was that amos2 bothered to raise the subject of AN staff entitlements, now all is become clear! No-one has mentioned the 89ers for some time and amos was becoming bored! Don't you think it might be time for you to take the advice you so often profferred to me, that I "have a Bex and a cup of tea and a good lie down"?

Buster has it right, you first! Just what does Ralph's current income have to do with his credibility in the matter? Are you so blinded by hatred of the time and the company that you are oblivious to any other argument? Your paranoia about the "scabs" and the other AN staff of the time is showing, amos, in your own words, "the jury is well and truly in on this one,"
GET OVER IT!

TheNightOwl.:ok:

[rtforu]

You know amos, I think you're right. Most guys I know from Ansett are doing very very well. They got some great experience from a great airline and now they are making a hugh amount elsewhere, and good on them, they deserve it. It may be true that some have not faired all that well but that would be the case anywhere. You must remember that most people made a hell of a lot of money from 89 until the demise, some pilots invested well and are enjoying a nice early retirement.

[one ball]

it's the Royal Australian Air Force... get it right.



PS what is a bex?


PPS get over '89, Amos. There is a bigger disaster (Ansett) to lament nowadays.

[Dexter]

jus becos it was anset why shuld it make youse think yore any more specil then other peeple who has bean retrashed?
anset was a big comperny wiv lotsa asetts so sum of youse shuld of got to work to make shore them asetts diden misteriusly disuppear.
how can the asutralien popuerlation be exspected to take cares of evry comperny that looses out?
anyways who ever trusted ables and murdock that they wuld do the rite thing?
get over it. if ya had a kid born then it d be reddy for skool now.

[Buster Hyman]

if ya had a kid born then it d be reddy for skool now.
Aren't you up a bit late on a school night Dexter?:rolleyes:

[Pole Vaulter]

What Amos and his other perpertrators of hatred to Ansett dont seem to understand is that the Government LOANED. I will repeat LOANED for those that dont understand the money to the administrators to give the AN staff the BASIC redundancy payments which you are entitled to by law in Australia. This money has all been repayed to the government so get it straight please the government has given the AN employees nothing. nil. zilch.
Then again some visions on this thread are so clouded by hatred you will never understand facts, your sickness has affected your understanding of facts.
What a sad bunch living in hatred for the remainder of your life.

[Kaptin M]

That's interesting, P.V. - was the loaned money that which was raised by the Ansett ticket levy, or was that levy used to repay the loan?

Reading back through the full Ansett history, the company appears to have received Government assistance on more than one occasion, to prevent it going under.

I don't see any evidence of "perpertrators of hatred to Ansett", and I do agree that Ansett staff should be entitled to what is rightfully theirs....however nothing more.
As with most things, the public have moved on since Ansett's collapse - which is not to say they have for the ex-Ansett staff though.
The ailments brought on by stress caused by traumatic events such as losing one's employment/spouse, etc, often don't surface for 3-5 years down the track, according to some medical info. I've read.

[Pole Vaulter]

KM,
The AN tax was used to pay the legal entitlements to the employees before Xmas due to the coffers being empty and no money was available. Since then the money LOANED to the administrators by the government has been repayed as the sale of the assetts occurred. It is also amazing that the way the administrators calculated the other entitlements -eg super etc- fell well short on what most staff had been told was their entitlements. They seemed to use totally different calculations than everyone else.

[Buster Hyman]

Kaptin The SEESA money came out of general revenue, the AN tax was established to cover any shortfall from the repayments for SEESA from the administrators. Currently, the administrators have paid most of the SEESA back which leaves almost the entire tax as surplus.
the company appears to have received Government assistance on more than one occasion
Very likely, although I'd love to see what your mate poured into TN during that time. Not to mention the $400 million debt waiving when QF got hold of TN. Governments propping up airlines goes on all the time, around the world.

[pizza]

As far as I'm concerned, the wrong company went bust a few years ago. Simple as that. No thanks to the Government and the unions. :suspect:

[one ball]

the Government LOANED. I will repeat LOANEDActually, pole vaulter, they lent, I repeat, lent.

Lent

LENT.

LENT!!!!!

[knotaloud]

One Ball

It is quite acceptable to use 'loan' as a verb. Check your dictionary and with your grammar teacher.

[Whiskery]

I think, however, that we should never forget that the Australian Govenment acted to prevent Singapore Airlines from injecting capital into Ansett by way of increasing its equity stake in Air NZ.

Absolutely, and the voters of Australia didn't forget that fact in the last election either Ralph. Why would any Government allow a foreign airline to inject funds into another foreign airline so as it could compete more effectively against the National Carrier ?

[Cornholeeo]

Who cares???? The point is, no one's job is sacred.



"Loan" is not a verb except in the minds of those fully assimilated http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/assimilate.gif into Yank-Speak. You do the math. Go figure. Enough already. Anyone for a "cookie"?

Just because hordes of ignoramusii (including, it appears, knotaloud) use the word does not mean the queen isn't already rolling over in her grave.

:yuk:

:rolleyes:

:hmm:

:zzz:

[knotaloud]

Cornhole

I suggest you dig up a copy of the "ABC of English Usage". It's a tome that was issued way before 'Yank Speak' and was used in many schools in Australia as the definitive authority on English grammar. You might also like to find a copy of the Oxford English Dictionary which allows the word 'loan' as a verb.

And then finally; seek out your high school grammar teacher before you shoot your mouth off.

[Desert Dingo]

Ha!
I see we have a verbing the noun offence here.

Lend or Loan?

In standard English lend is a verb, and loan is a noun.

Nonstandard: Please loan us a hundred dollars.

Standard: Please lend us a hundred dollars.

Standard English, also known as Standard Written English or SWE, is the form of English most widely accepted as being clear and proper.

Publishers, writers, educators, and others have over the years developed a consensus of what standard English consists of. It includes word choice, word order, punctuation, and spelling.

Standard English is especially helpful when writing because it maintains a fairly uniform standard of communication which can be understood by all speakers and users of English regardless of differences in dialect, pronunciation, and usage. This is why it is sometimes called Standard Written English.

There are a few minor differences between standard usage in England and the United States, but these differences do not significantly affect communication in the English language.

Please note that most dictionaries merely report on words that are used, not on their grammar or usage. Merely because a word appears in a dictionary does not mean that it is standard.

Cut & pasted from English Plus,Copyright©1997-2002 All rights reserved. Sorry, M'lud - Guilty as charged.



Capt. D. Dingo,
Spelling Police.

Member: Apostrophe Protection Society

[bushy]

Whiskery
So let,s stop pretending that the demise of Ansett was due to technical factors. And all the other airlines that have mysteriously had serious troubles as soon as they tried to compete.

[Whiskery]

Not too sure what point you're trying make bushy, but all I'm saying is, any Government that assisted a foreign company to compete more effectively against the National Carrier (read - Qantas) would be the Opposition after the next election ! ;)

[Gnadenburg]

Fortunately, Pprune not a balanced cross section of contemporary Australian society- bitter and ignorant comments from some.

Personally, I felt the Howard government macromanaged the social repercussions of Australia's biggest corporate collapse quite well. Considering it was an aviation related collapse around the time of September 11!

The only issue I have with the Howard Government ( except foreign policy ) was his cheeky reference to industry standard redundancy packages. It was the EBA models he created, increasing productivity and giving away established benefits, in return for better redundancy protections.

With little cost to the taxpayer, the Howard Government provided social protection for thousands of employees. It would have cost a lot more through social security if they had not!

Some of you seem to be suggesting it is OK for foreign business to come into Australia, compete then fail, close shop and leave without paying workers' entitlements. I suppose AirNZ did this to an extent, but the asset base they left behind ( prior to being bailed out by their government ) did cover a good percentage of workers entitlements.

Alidad

I have the same education level as when I lost my job at Ansett but am on 2 and a half times the package now- 3 and a half when the reality of Australia's current accounts deficit hits home.

Many have improved their lot since the AN collapse. Some examples- junior F/A's at Ansett found themselves in VB and the QF group earning more and pilots found they were not that well paid in Ansett considering opportunities elsewhere.

A worker who spent their entire adult life, employed with Ansett and with specialised skills ( not the formal education you allude to ) which are not recognised outside the airline industry, did not fare as well in many cases. I sincerely hope they find good career opportunities again.

KaptainM

As a champion of pilot welfare concerns, aswell as experience of friends and colleagues suffering similar in 89, what can our generation do to prevent illness manifesting itself down the track?

Like many 89ers we have gotten on with it, but our bitterness may not lay as deep-if at all come to think of it. There was a chance of a successful Ansett ( many gambled with such ) but the cards went the other way!

Such is life!

[Kaptin M]

As a champion of pilot welfare concerns, aswell as experience of friends and colleagues suffering similar in 89, what can our generation do to prevent illness manifesting itself down the track? Gee, thanks for the kind words, Gardenbug :rolleyes:
"Get over it", might be the best advice - although for some people, that's easier said than achieved.
I had a very good friend (an ex-Dispute AN Captain - Peter Stone), who died of stomach cancer some 7 years after the bomb went off, and which I attribute directly to (i) the stress of '89, and (ii) a mis-diagnosis (as gall bladder problems) by a doctor, a year or so prior to his death.

1989 was a little different to the total demise of the 2001 Ansett, and so for those who still find it hard to accept, Ansett will NEVER be coming back - it's no good hoping that someone, someday will resurrect it. It's gone, and it's time to move on.

Blaming Air New Zealand - and hoping for that company to fall over, is not good medicine to be harbouring inside oneself.
I suspect you look a lot closer to home - Canberra would be a good start, imo.
Take a look at how the unions are being attacked by QF, and who holds the controlling interest in VB, and tell me there isn't a concerted, centralised battle plan.
Ansett was a major stronghold of the TWU. WHY would this Government keep it afloat?!