Inter welsh air links

[pipertommy]

Just seen on the news,the subject of welsh air links has cropped up again with the changing of welsh powers on transport,from the queens speech.Who would run this set up ? and what a/c type would they use?:hmm:

[Cyrano]

There's a report on this from the Welsh Assembly Government at http://www.wspu.co.uk/Issued%20Documents/Economic%20Development%20and%20Transport/Consultations/Intra-Wales%20Air%20Services.doc ( this address - it's a Word file so hopefully downloads OK.

Failing that, do a google search on "intra wales air service" and follow the first link.

The intention was not to identify a specific operator, rather to figure out what routings would be possible/desirable, on a PSO basis since it's not clear that the service would be commercially viable.

I believe the assumption was that a 19-seater aircraft would be used, but again, it's just an assumption.

C.

[taffman]

Just who will use the services, how often will they use them, will they be cheap enough for people, normal people that is, to use them. Some of the totally head in the sand comments made on BBC Wales today are laughable.

Just who in Aberporth want to fly to another part of Wales? I know about the weapons range there but how many people want to fly often enough to warrant an air service. Its like all the other attempts to run trains, buses etc, nobody needs it. The stupid plans by some councils, far west, in Wales who said they wanted hourly fast electric trains to London, no electric trains in west Wales, are in the same vain as this stupid money wasting idea. There is no interest for the man in the street to do it. The roads are not brilliant in Wales, for geographical reason in some cases, but by the time you have driven to the airport, checked in, waited for the flight, taxied out, taken off, landed, taxied in, walked up and down lots of stairs at Cardiff airport, got your bag, got on the bus to town, you could have driven at a fraction of the cost and arrived before the plane. The average family could not afford the fares in Wales as most are on low wages and would use a car.

Yes a North, South flight may work, but for how many people and how often do those people want to fly who do. Cardiff to Caernarfon, classic, high density route, the Japanese could advise on the use of 747’s on it as they do back in Japan on commuter routes. Cardiff to Manchester may be.

Get real Assembly people, wake up, and switch on.
:yuk:

[brabazon]

Taffman

I think, having not read the documents, that it is supposed to be a way of getting Assembly members to the Assembly quicker and "cheaper" than paying out for cars, trains, hotels etc. Having set that as the base demand I guess they are thinking that others will want to use such a service if it exists. Stranger things have happened in the history of UK air transport....

[taffman]

I've seen to many attempts to run air services in Wales along with trains, boats and busses, they have all gone out of business or have been reduced to once a week, one way only, silly but true. The report states that there is little point in doing any of this and the return on investment is nil. Your right of course it will be for AM members only, to hell with the general public. They have never listen to or cared about them before, why start now.

Taffman

[brabazon]

See the WA have proposed a twice daily Anglesey - Swansea/Cardiff for 2006. Does this mean that they will impose a PSO or just hope someone will be tempted by a Route Development Fund?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/4075105.stm

[skyrabbit]

Can't see any real demand for a service between Anglesey and Cardiff (and Swansea is a non starter as it is now back to being a GA field with limited facilities).

Even if it were to happen it would only appeal to a handful of Assembly Members and civil servants as Anglesey is in the far North West of Wales and folks are spread pretty thin in these parts.

On a more positive note the twice daily Air Wales service between Cardiff and Liverpool (which continues on to Aberdeen and has connections to/from Plymouth) is proving very popular with folks travelling between North East and South East Wales which are the two main centres of population.

Rabbs :)

[TwinAisle]

What a good idea, Cardiff to Valley!

Just think - to save me driving to Holyhead to catch the Dublin ferry, I can save time by flying to Valley, and then catching the ferry to Dublin.

Alternatively, I could use the excellent Air Wales service direct Cardiff-Dublin.....

This is an AM express and nothing else. The last time this idea surfaced, it was based on the notion that Air Wales would use the D228 to operate it. Pity that AW took the Dornier out of service yonks ago, and have just flogged -XT to Iceland then....

Complete, unmitigated waste of public funds.

[niknak]

The EEC had right idea when they produced their map of Member countries entitled to economic aid - remove Wales completely. :p

[flower]

As much as it grieves me to agree with a certain poster above , he is absolutely correct regarding the Liverpool Cardiff route. Any other service around Wales simply is a non starter and is yet another example of the waste of time and space that the Welsh Assemby government is.

[surely not]

Now if it was a combi allowing farmers to move their sheep around from market to market, that would be different!

My plans for this are a little wooly at them moment, but I'm sure the baa would show an interest, but it'll need someone to ram the idea home. The in-flite reading would obviously be The Shepherd.


ok I'll sheepishly wander off the thread now.................

[taffman]

If it lasts more than six months, I'll eat my sheep. :p

[skyrabbit]

damn shame we flogged that Dornier 228 ....

eh TA? :{

Rabbs :*

[TwinAisle]

Eventually, yes you did.... took a long time to find a buyer tho!!

Joking aside - is the WAG serious about SWS?? They did a bloody marvellous job of ignoring SWS when RT and AW were doing their level best to make a go of it.....

Typically politicians - years behind the event...

If I were RT and AW, I'd put in a grant application to buy an A380 for this route - claim that you are supporting the boys and girls at Hawarden, pushing Wales to the fore etc etc - bet they would go all foamy at the chops and write out a cheque (payable to "Airbus Industrie", please, numpties) for $300M.... would look good in AW colours. G-WLAD perhaps? or G-YMRU? G-TAFF?

Ah no - G-GGOH, or G-YYYD (think Dirty Tom....)

[dada]

what a load of old rubbish - sheep cant read let alone fly.

[GrahamK]

Now if it was a combi allowing farmers to move their sheep around from market to market, that would be different!

Yep, definitly a different kind of Mile High Club me thinks :\

[TwinAisle]

what a load of old rubbish - sheep cant read let alone fly.

Re Dada - what a load of old rubbish - Dada can't spell, let alone fly.

Tedious individual.

[dada]

management consultant = would be wonna be airline executive that can't get a proper job. is that spelled write?

[TwinAisle]

No. Your grammar is shot as well.

As for a proper job, you really ought to do your research, you know... people on here who know who am I will find your post very amusing!

[dada]

that's good - my whole reason for posting is generally to raise a laugh - people who now me no that. the crap spelling is all part of the act. life's too short to be two serrious.

p.s. sorry if i've insulted you if you turm out to be more important than me!

[PPRuNe Pop]

Here we go again!

Why is it so important to have slanging matches? Tell me, I would love to understand it. 'Cos I don't. A dig here and a dig there what is the problem? Want brownie points? Is that it?

Now come on guys this has just got to stop. One thread after another. I am not singling out any one person - but I could. So....cool it and behave like you are interested people who have opinions that matters. Right now much of them don't.

Sensible informed discussion is what is wanted.


PPP

[TwinAisle]

No offense taken or intended, PPP....

Just get a bit bored seeing endless jokes about the Welsh and aviation in Wales, when myself and so many of my friends make it all happen and rely on it for a living....

TA

[Hawk]

Shame really, an important and legitimate regional aviation issue..if the best you can do is sheep, grammar, spelling and personal attacks..we'll give it 24 hours...see if you can turn it around.

Hawk

[TwinAisle]

In response then to Hawk's challenge....

Anywhere care to speculate who will pick up this particular poison chalice - and what they will use to operate it?

TA

[skyrabbit]

I could tell you......


.....but then I'd have to shoot you! ;)

Rabbs :}

dashing Welsh aviator

[surely not]

I'm curious as to the frequency of service that will be required. Will the Welsh Assembly members need to travel on a daily basis, and if they do will the timings be useful to non Assembly members? Just thinking of the odd hours that the House of Westminster operates to, does Cardiff do the same?

It could be quite restriictive on growth if it isn't Air Wales that picks it up, as the aircraft will be left with the 'hard to fill' off peak scheds between its Assembly services.

[LGS6753]

The whole idea of this is politically-inspired b*ll*cks.
First, nothing that's subsidised ever works (too many examples to quantify.
Second, it's a waste of taxpayer's money. It's all too easy for the Welsh Assembly to spend money - it's not raised by them, so their pet schemes will end up costing the taxpayer in England, Scotland and Northern Ireland too.
Third, the whole idea's a non-starter. Those who live in South Wales look towards the English Westcountry or Midlands. Those who live in the north look towards the northwest conurbations of England. The only people who see the extemities of Wales as a unity are the politicos (Welsh Nationalists) and the bureaucrats. Everyone else has noticed the terrain in the centre.
If a service were ever run, my guess is that the subsidised seats would be taken by people working in the public sector, spending even more taxpayer's money.

Just remember - the public sector/government NEVER knows best how to spend your money.

Rant over. Normal service will be reumed shortly.

[TwinAisle]

First, nothing that's subsidised ever works (too many examples to quantify

I am so glad someone wrote this. PSO is one of those things that troubles me deeply.

Let me bore you for a while.

I used to work for a guy who maintained that "free of charge was free of value" - viz, if you were producing something that people didn't want to pay for - or at least at the level you needed to make it worth your while - you should pack up and go home.

So it is, I suspect, with this airlink.

Let us assume that there was a pressing need to run services between Valley and Cardiff. Adam Smith tells us that if there is a need, the market will satisfy it. No-one has yet. Without great lumps of public money, my guess is that no-one will either. If there IS a pressing need for it, then the people who are pressing should pay market rate - out of their pockets, please, not mine.

Would it not be better to spend the money on public projects where there is a proven need - a better road to Cardiff Airport springs to mind - rather than trying to generate need when clearly none exists?

TA

[surely not]

Couldn't agree more TA. Road access to CWL from the M4 (in particular) is abysmal. I have to visit CWl on quite a few occassions and I am always amazed at how difficult it is to get to the main airport for Wales. If they really want to make a dramatic difference to aviation in Wales then improving access to CWL would be an easy winner.

[skyrabbit]

errrr.......the new road to the airport was announced at the same time as the airlink....

...,pay attention Nice but Dim!!! :8



Rabbs :p

[TwinAisle]

I'd read what is proposed before you say that, Rabbs. All they have announced is some "enhancements" to the A48 from Culverhouse to Bonvilston (my guess is changing the 30 limit through St Nicholas to a 40 limit), and an "improvement" to the junction with Five Mile Lane and "strategic widening" of the lane itself.

The road to the airport - ie, a proper highway to the M4 - is still a distant dream....

Pay attention, Rabbs! ;)

Found the quote now:

"A stretch of the A48 and A4226, known as Five Mile Lane, which runs between Culverhouse Cross and the airport, will be improved to take traffic away from the the A4321 through the village of Wenvoe.

A new link from the M4 will also be investigated with a view to diverting traffic away from the busy Culverhouse Cross interchange. "

TA

[skyrabbit]

thought you'd say that.....


.....what has already been announced will reduce the number of roundabouts between the M4 and the airport from 14 to 4!... count 'em!.....and if you're going to the numpties bit on the south side there are 3 more!!!:ooh:

It might not be a 6 lane highway but it is most welcome to those of us that drive the route almost daily.

Rabbs :)

[pipertommy]

Think the news is great!I too travel to the airport frequently and having the "5-mile lane"improved is very welcome.I have also read that this airport link improvement will be done in stage`s.I guess the next stage would be to join 5.m.l to m4 j34.This would bypass the sticking point at Culverhouse.But as stated before,some years off.Do you think they will run the 5.m.l towards the airport rather than petrol station at Barry,there is a part when you can see cwl close up then you drop back towards Barry ?:O

[dada]

well done one and all for turning round this post.

[GROUNDHOG]

Must have turned round at one of those roundabouts.

Sometimes it is hard to make comment without giving away who you are but I can tell you that in past discussions the WDA didn't want to know about any flying to anywhere in Wales and proved generally useless in all respects regarding flying to everywhere else. Now they are prepared to spend money on this.

Echo the thoughts of all its just a politicians express - better ways to spend a million guys.

Please Sir, can someone try Cardiff to Newquay, I know both ends pretty well and that could work?

PS Who bought the Dornier - surely it didn't go back to Islandsfug (or whatever they are called these days)?

[dada]

so am i safe to return to talking about sheep?

NO


PPP

[TwinAisle]

The Do228 has gone to a new airline called Landsflug as TF-ADC.

I think 5ML is going to stay on the route it currently is. Unfortunately.

[skyrabbit]

I'm highly impressed that TA could type at 22.52 last night! ;)

You should see the number of empty bottles in my kitchen! :}

Rabbs (with hangover)

[TwinAisle]

Believe me, it was an effort!!

Amazing place, the Assembly.... right now on Radio 2 they are discussing whether Wales should have a national airline - based on the ramblings of some crackpot AM.

Do we pay this oaf? Or more to the point, do we pay for his researcher? Surely even the slowest, most incompetent researcher has either heard of Air Wales, or has the wit to type "Wales airline" into google....

I love paying tax. Not.

We'll have to keep the Assembly I suppose. Marginally cheaper than care in the community...

[surely not]

Perhaps you need to have a word with your PR people TA, if they can't even get the name of Air Wales known to the WA members then some'at is amiss :D

[TwinAisle]

Air Wales is absolutely nothing to do with me anymore...

[skyrabbit]

Actually...Jeremy Vine stressed the point that Air Wales was the airline in Wales and clearly stated that the debate was about the proposed link within Wales and was nothing to do with Air Wales.

Rabbs

[TwinAisle]

Rapid u-turn on behalf of the BBC then.... the programme was trailed as "Today's topic for your discussion is.... The Welsh assembly have called for their own national airline. Is this justified? Or a ridiculous proposition?"

[skyrabbit]

they received a call explaining their error ;)

Rabbs

[surely not]

In that case 'well done the Air Wales PR dept' :D

[Reynolds No.]

Should have been Caernarfon, not Valley!!:(

[TwinAisle]

Caernarfon, or Valley?

Neither. It is a ridiculous proposition. I have seen the background reports on this, and even the most optimistic are showing a VERY large loss (are you listening, Welsh taxpayers?) for the first four years (which is as far as the figures go).

All the options considered are nuts:

Option 1— Round-Wales Service (one aircraft)
Scenario A — Cardiff, Haverfordwest, Anglesey, Hawarden
Scenario B — Cardiff, Haverfordwest, Anglesey

Option 2— Cardiff Hub
Scenario A — two aircraft operation - Cardiff, Anglesey, Cardiff, Swansea, Cardiff (repeat until dizzy), Aircraft Two does Cardiff, Hawarden, Cardiff, Haverfordwest (really!), Cardiff, again until dizzy.
Scenario B — one aircraft operation (excludes Hawarden) -

Option 3— Non-Cardiff Route opportunities
Scenario A — two aircraft operation - One does Hawarden, Swansea, Hawarden, Haverfordwest, Hawarden, Swansea, Hawarden, Haverfordwest, Hawarden. Number Two does Anglesey, Swansea, Anglesey, Haverfordwest, Anglesey, Swansea, Anglesey, Haverfordwest, Anglesey
Scenario B — one aircraft operation (excludes Hawarden).

Option 4– Inclusion of International Sectors - the most barking of the lot: Cardiff, Anglesey, Dublin, Anglesey, Cardiff, Swansea, Cardiff, Anglesey, Dublin, Anglesey, Cardiff

• No specific carrier has been assumed but airline costs are similar to those of a small independent regional carrier.
• The study is based on a 19-seat Dornier 228 turbo-prop.

Bet you Air Wales are going to go pop about number 4, unless they get to play! And they have finally managed to extricate themselves from SWS and I can't think they'd want to go back in a hurry.....

The poor, poor taxpayer.

TA