Flying Pay!

[where2next]

Why is it that aircrew 'flying' desks are still in receipt of flying pay? Surely this is a waste of money?

[ZH875]

Didn't you know, the RAF is run by Pilots for Pilots.

[juliet]

perhaps taking flying pay away from aircrew posted to ground tours, through no intention of their own, will be the final straw and so may just leave. maybe it should be called aircrew retention pay instead but either way aircrew do deserve that extra bit of cash.

[Wappy Tupper]

ZH875 - '...the RAF is run by Pilots for Pilots.'

Actually you're wrong - its run by the MOD, the majority of which wouldn't know one end of an aircraft from another.

Spoils that argument.

[PlasticCabDriver]

That would be popular!

Poster "Sorry chum, it's off to a ground tour for you, have a 25% pay cut"

You "Thanks very much, Sir, you can shove your ground tour up your a*se, I'm off!"

Perhaps if we did call it retention pay (cos that's what it actually is) we could stop getting the same whining question every couple of months or so!

[Grimweasel]

Why is it that many members of this forum say that they will 'leave' if they fall upon hard times? Did we all not sign a contract with minimum service? Just because we can't have our way all the time it's not an excuse to throw the teddies from the pram and threaten to leave.
Smacks of mercenary un-professionalism and weak veiled threats?

After all why join the military if thats your attitude. Too many personal agendas and not enough team work from you Blue types!!

[ZH875]

Too many personal agendas and not enough team work from you Blue types!!make that Blue types in green gro-bags.

[Vage Rot]

A very ambitious second-ever post there Mr Where2next. Simple answer is, would you carry on working if your pay was cut by 25%??

I thought not!

Granted some aircrew are in non-flying-related jobs. Not many. Those who choose to stay in a ground tour will, after 3 years start to have their pay cut - or that's the way I understand it.

Given the state of my mucked up pay statement for the last 6 months, if you follow the logical arguement that people shouldn't be paid for something that they are not doing, the whole of blunt-dom shouldn't be paid. Please sort it out blunties!!

The stark answer is because that's the way it is. You want flying pay then you should have tried harder at school!

[Red Line Entry]

It does seem to me that as a general rule, flying pay should be much more targeted. I don"t believe anyone joins to be aircrew to get flying pay - you join to go bl@@dy fast at 200', or to fly NOE in a helicopter or whatever. So why do we pay aircrew ANY flying pay in the early years. Removing it would have no effect on recruitment (even if we were desperate for applicants, which we aren't).

The money could then be used to help retain the experience that we need in the cockpit. This would be far better than the tiered system that exists at the moment, or at the very least it would release more funds to make it more worthwhile.

[AllTrimDoubt]

you join to go bl@@dy fast at 200'

250' actually chum!

[FFP]

Delay it as in not pay it till after an OCU ? Think you'll find that's what has happened.

As far as being mecenary, you join to do a job and that's that. I didn't join to sit behind a desk. If I don't like it, I'll leave and vote with my feet. No song and dance or fuss made. Simple. That's what PVR is for.

PS. As we're on the subject of benefits (tenuous link I know) why is it that, as QR's states, personnel on flights over a certain number of hours should travel Business Class never do except those in the Admin branch that somehow manage to ? Hmmmm . . . . .. . .

[Miserable Old Git]

Sorry,

I joined for the money

and it's very nice thank you

Oh, and in 20 years I have never, ever travelled anything other than cattle class.

The reason flying pay is paid whilst aircrew are on a ground tour is because those are they terms and conditions that they joined under.

[5 Forward 6 Back]

This old chestnut again :)

As mentioned, if you stay in a blunt job for long enough, it starts to wither. And, it's not paid until you're through your type's OCU now either.

Plus, it's not purely for "flying," I remember being told. Part of it's meant to be in recognition of the extra training and capability aircrew have ;) so if you're in a ground job which requires an aircrew mate, your flying pay's reflecting the fact that your experience is needed.

Or something like that. I'll edit after a few beers :}

[InTgreen]

Whenever we come back from a ****ty job in the hills at night, with cloud or whatever on the deck, our engineers always respond 'I guess that's what you guys' get flying pay for!' I suppose it is, but yes, I would probably do the job just for the love of it.... However, it really would not be long until the civvie sector would pay oh so much more, for much less risk to yours truly. The money is not everything, but it is nice to get some recognition for a bloody tough job in the face of danger. Be it danger from the enemy or the elements, either can quickly kill you if you are not ready for them!!

That being said, the role of the ground crews is invaluable. We could not fly and keep a 98%+ 15min readiness 24hrs a day 365 days a year without them. Cheers guys- and in my experience, the GC's get as much of a buzz out of a successful rescue/sortie as the aircrew do. And so they should....... How does the dark blue saying go? Oh yes, the team works! We are all here for the same job. Be that job in the air or on the ground. One would not happen without the other. Supply dudes know what they can claim, aircrew get retention pay, SAR engineers get the rough end of the stick....

[FEWNCOP]

AllTrimDoubt,

It may be 250ft in the fast jet world, but a few multi's live life at 200'!!

[Raymond Ginardon]

.....and some FJs at 100 feet :O

I do it cos I love it.

[jindabyne]

Mis Old Git

I suspect that I'm even old older git than you - can't comment on the miserable bit though. But you're absolutely right, until the T&C's are changed, I would've thought that there's no point in knocking those, or their views, that draw flying pay - whatever their circumstances. Change the rules by all means, but don't advocate such change out of envious or 'equality' motives. I like to think that although I sat on my butt for around a quarter of my RAF career, I was justified in drawing my flying pay for that period by virtue of my overall contibution in the air over the other three quarters. Not an aircrew brag or a them/us issue, simply a reflection of the job.

[Canary Boy]

How often have we visited this hoary old topic over the years? It should have nowt to do with retention - why not just pay aircrew extra - in the main they deserve it....

....on the other hand I can think of a lot of deserving cases for retention pay....

....ME :{

[Raymond Ginardon]

FFP,

I think that QR was amended to say something about 'at the discretion of the budget holder.....'

Ray

[AllTrimDoubt]

I knew typing 250' would open up the wormhole!

...I know - TTA's and all that! (and before somebody throws it in yes, 50' over the water at night on ops - concentrates the selective radial scan somewhat!)

And I'm not even going to mention the "as required" when the bad guys shot back.

This whole thread is beginning to reek of AdminGuru!

[Raymond Ginardon]

All,

Soz - I couldn't resist it, and I was ready with the 50' thing next ;-)

Just that I have a lot of time on my hands right now.......


Ray

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Bl@@dy great idea,

Get rid of flying pay full stop..............which is exactly what the PA spine is trying to do......just give PA to ALL AIRCREW and you not only do away with flying pay issues, that only seem to wind up those not in reciept...ie "blunties" :E , but also remove the differentials between PA and non PA and enhances all aircrew pensions which can only be a good thing!

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced:ok:

[PH98]

It makes a big difference now actually, if you're on the new scheme. With a couple of holds you could be 3-4 years behind for the whole of your career, which works out about a years salary over a PC. It's all very well saying get rid of it, but you'll only get rid of the people that could earn very good money outside the RAF after university because they're capable and so they'll get poached by banks and such like. I know most people don't do it for the money but if you get to the stage that someone is offering you 2 times your potential salary 3 years from now when you first start and you know one salary's going to go up and the other isn't then you have to start seriously considering it. That's especially when you've only been to UAS and you've not seen the real RAF or how good the flying can be!

[Vage Rot]

If you don't get flying pay for that, well, that's hardly a shame. Soldiers and Officers getting shot in Baghdad, under far more threat than RAF (and Army/Navy) pilots get no extra 'danger/retention' pay despite high rates of pay available from civvi protection firms.




Ah, but they joined to get shot at for no extra money!

I joined to fly shiney toys and have fun for loadsa money. If I get shot at then so be it - I've had a great time. Thanks for all the beer tokens and detachments etc etc.

Sit behind a desk for ever - Yawn. Not me!!

:p

[teeteringhead]

It may be 250ft in the fast jet world, but a few multi's live life at 200'!! .....and some FJs at 100 feet ...my nose bleeds if I go that high...:E :E :E

[Paul McKeksdown]

I agree with getting rid, in total, of flying pay!:\

Lets finally have the 'retention pay' included, in full, onto our basic pay and therefore make the whole bl@@dy lot pensionable! As it's currently taxed but not pensioned! Tragic! :{ :{ :{

Currently flying a 'desk' after 14 continuous years of front line flying and looking forward for a bit of a break from the cockpit! However I still need to keep all drills, medical and the such in date to enable me to complete a short refresher course if the need arises either to return front line or to teach!!!!

Thats why the full flying pay is granted for the first three years of a desk job. The core skills are still considered to be there and just need 'honing' to enable a fast return to the front line.

Damn boring most of the time but need to give the toys to the younger boys sometimes! However the old tricks are still there.

And as to previous questions, yes I do it for the money and not for the conditions which are, quite frankly, c$%p.

Helmet on, crouch down, wait for flak!!!!!:ok: Remeber, the light at the end of the tunnel could be an oncoming train!

[Dark Helmet]

(Sorry slightly off topic...)

InTGreen,

Lovely post, as an ex-C Flight/SARTU shift boss I agree entirely. I remember driving home feeling really satisfied after any shift that included at least one successful rescue.

[Spugford]

Rotary pongo..

Almost a fair point but Soldiers and Officers getting shot in Baghdad, under far more threat than RAF (and Army/Navy) pilots get no extra 'danger/retention' pay despite high rates of pay available from civvi protection firms.

True, however RAF (and Army/Navy) aircrew are at considerably more risk than most of their groundcrew counterparts.

[Vage Rot]

Spugford,

..............those (flying pay etc) are the terms and conditions of service. If people don't like it then tough. Don't whinge just because they don't get flying pay - the application forms for aircrew are available to all.

I'd quite happily give a 'flying pay' type addition to most blunties - but I'd have to insist that we took one out and shot them every month or so so that 50% were dead after 18 years - that's how many of my initial FTS course are dead.

And it's aircrew who are accused of having chips on shoulders!!!!!:oh:

[Red Line Entry]

Vage,

"If people don't like it then tough"

Wonderful stuff - are you sure you're not Air Rank?

[buoy15]

Vague
I agree with you
Flying pay is "additional" pay which is taxed but not pensionable, Very unfair!
I decided to to use my "additional" pay to buy premium bonds rather than go for PVC's towards my pension (17%) I maintained maximum holdings over the last 15 years and am now lucky to be pulling in about £300 a month in prizes, tax free, (18% ish) whilst the capital is still in place, protected from that greedy bastard Gordon Brown!:)

Love many, Trust a few, Always paddle you own canoe!

[Grimweasel]

Spugford......Utter Cr@p old boy.......just look at the bloody casaulty figures from Iraq and compare the ratio's of deaths between ground troops and flying types!

[Raymond Ginardon]

teeteringhead,

Doh! I should have seen that coming....

:-)

Ray

[akula]

In reply to where2next's question, No it is not a waste of money...:ok: :ok: :ok:




ALWAYS assume NEVER check

[Vage Rot]

I know,

lets all join an organisation, accept certain terms and conditions and then whinge cos you find out that someone else earns more. THATS LIFE!!

In civvy street you can end up with an assistant manager earning more than a manager - simple point is that you are paid what they can get away with and not what you are worth. In most companies it is a sackable offence to discuss wages with others.

If you don't like it then don't whinge - do something - leave and vote with your feet. In the meantime, stop whingeing and let those of us that still enjoy life get on with it in peace -

Not Air Rank - PAS Flt Lt by the way!

[where2next]

Good answer akula!! I can't wait to get back into a flying job, but used this to show the shiney's i work with, what the general opinion is.

:E

[MAD Boom]

Quote:

'Why is it that aircrew 'flying' desks are still in receipt of flying pay? Surely this is a waste of money?'

Errr, because we do, and no it's not. Simple.

Bye

[Tourist]

Incidentally, are you Bluntie Tw@ts aware just how much flying pay we get?

Effing Loads!!!!!!!

Just thought I'd clear that up in an effort to diffuse the situation


http://pages.prodigy.net/rogerlori1/emoticons/jedi1.gif

[chippy63]

Vage Rot,
If I earn more than you, that's a legitimate differential; if you earn more than me, that's a disgraceful anomaly!

[brit bus driver]

Tourist

You call £35 a day.....effing loads? Well, maybe you're right.........;)

Better still, let's pay the other branches a salary representative of that which they would earn outside. Then, pass on all the savings to the aircrew - brilliant! Maybe then, I'd only get £30k a year less than my civilian counterpart.

[Vage Rot]

Brit Bus Driver

Top point!!

OC accounts - no formal accounts qualification - ie Chartered Accountant/CEMA etc. Expect to earn around 15-20K with a free calculator thrown in - not 30K Flt Lt brass.

OC Supply, no formal qualificationin the industry - whatever that might be!! - Warehouse Manager, about 20K and a free abacus.

OC Catering, sandwhich van at the side of the A4 - about £150K a year!!!!!

VC10 Captian, no civil licence, not a current civil type, about 35K with Easyjet as First Officer


Bu99er, I just Diss'd your argument! :yuk:

The one trade that should have got it's muck in a sock is the engineers - incredibly employable outside, RAF is short of them and they stay in, earning a pitance (sp?)

As I said before, one gets paid whatever a company thinks they can get away with. Not what one is worth.

[Tuckunder]

Where2next! Clearly a sore point for you but let us face it aircrew need to fly desks if we are to have anyone with any credibility making operational and policy decisions. There must be incentives to go the career route. Taking away flying pay doesn't seem the best of incentives to me. Why not double flying pay whilst on ground appointments. There's a thought. I

[where2next]

Here Here!! But seriously, it's not just the cash for me. Get me back doing what I joined up for!!

[Lionel Lion]

Any guys tried flying desks at a Dining In?? Could be a new inter-sqn competition - sqn catapults! (rather than cannon)

:E

[Hoots]

I asked a question of AMP a couple of years ago, why is it that officers have 4 years of initial flying pay before going to the middle rate and then a further 4 years to go to the top rate, whereas the Non commisioned (the only proffesional aircrew, albeit an arguable point) has 12 years ( or 9 depending on previous service) on initial rate and 22 years service to get to top rate. I can maybe understand that the rates may be different, however I believe the basic rule of when it is applied shold be the same. With discrimination being a major factor in service life these days, this is surely one case of discrimination. Oh and by the way although I was promised an answer by AMP nothing was forthcoming. I also found it interesting that some senior officers didn't know this was the case.

As ex groundcrew who changed over to the other side, getting back to the origional discussion, if people don't like seeing aircrew getting paid flying pay, they can always exercise their entitlement to apply for aircrew. If too old for this now then all that can be said is that you had your chance so accept it and get on with it.

[Stupid Boy]

Hoots, quite agree with your point about changing over. I did 10 years as admin type geezer before making the switch. Used to work with lots of people who bitched and moaned about aircrew but never got off their backsides to do anything about it. You cannot beat the system and the system gives us aircrew extra money so tough luck. The opportunity to switch is open to most people and as I proved, you do not have to be a brain surgeon to pass!! Pity my terms of service are worse now than if I had stayed as groundcrew but only got myself to blame for that ;)

[PPRuNeUser0172]

Hoots old boy, are you serious or just been smoking something a little odd??

NCA (quote) the only "Proffesional" aircrew (unquote)

First of all, would you like too justify that rather sweeping statement? Secondly, check your spelling old bean, I think you will find the word "professional" is at the top of this page if in any doubt;)

DS

Ps "an arguable point"? you bet it is..................:O

[BEagle]

Presumably he means that NCA are employed only to be airborne equipment operators, load specialists or systems minders - whereas Pilots and Navigators are supposed to be officers first, aircrew second?

Would seem rather a silly point to make.

[Hoots]

Looks like I got a reaction, I do believe that the officer types are GD(P) (N) etc, as in general duties. Of course many officers have to go and complete a ground tour, which I am sure many would prefer not to, but if they are career people ( and good luck to them ) then this has to be done. Many NCA can have first tours as long as 8 years, some more, then go to other flying tours which ends up as 20 years plus for some purely flying. I do have the greatest respect and admiration for the vast majority of officer types, but they do bite easily at times.

I would be interested to know why the disparity of when flying pay rates are applied.

As for the spelling errors its a bit of a finger / keyboard co-ordination problem, should have tried harder at school.

[foldingwings]

You don't suppose that "Should have worked harder at school!" would be an appropriate response to those (clearly groundpounders) who are whining about aircrew getting their just rewards whether up in the sky or down on the ground! No, I thought not! Well it always works for me!

By the way, I thought 200ft was an appropriate happy average!

FJ 250' AGL or 200' ASL or 100' ULL or <50' over the oggin with noone watching!

Not that I'm in current flying practice these days - haven't been for a while, still - the money's good!

[Titan Locked]

Hoots

Just to correct one slight inaccuracy in your last post - GD branch only exists now for wg cdrs and above (and then all branches become GD). Aviation branch Sqn Ldrs and below are now Flying branch ie Fg(P), Fg(WSO) etc.

Makes no difference though - still get flying pay on an enforced ground tour.

:ok:

TL

[PPRuNeUser0172]

Hoots, you are supposed to beep when you go in reverse old chap. In your first post, you claim that NCA are the most "proffesional" aircrew and yet you still havent managed to give any logical reason/argument as to why this might be the case, now at the risk of this becoming a p!ssing competition, I would really like to hear why you think that is.

Now I hope you enjoy your fishing!;)

"An Officer type"

[rafloo]

Too true - Im an Officer tyope and Ive been flying since 1981 without a break. No desk jobs, no ground tours. Continuous flying...does that make me a prof(f)essional..?

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Nope...................just a Flt Lt:E

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced:ok:

"spell checked to avoid abuse"

[Hoots]

Titan, I stand corrected. As for everyone else I do not intend any offence and am only jesting with you with regards professionalism. That topic always winds up a few officer chums around the bizzares at ISK. Since the GD tag has been removed, cheers Titan, i'll just have to think up something else to continue a bit of banter.

However, can anyone answer the question of why is the rate applied at different timescales, i.e. 4 and 8 years for officers and 12 and 22 for NCA?

[Climebear]

Hoots the answer to your question is market forces - use the available money in areas where it has the best effect. It has nothing to do with fairness.

To answer the initial point about aircrew in desk jobs getting FP best look at the purpose

'The main object of flying pay is so to enhance pay as to provide in total emoluments an inducement to sufficient numbers of suitable personnel to undertake and continue with a flying career in the RAF. '

If you take it off someone when they are in desk appointments then it reduces the inducement to stay. If they leave then you have to replace them with someone else - from a fg appointment. Thereby, reducing the number of Front Line aircrew. Simple as that.

It is not danger money the UK Services don't have such payments - if there was such a payment there are a significant number of other (grd) appointment in the Armed Forces that could be entitled to a lot of money (EOD operatives etc).

I have no problems with aircrew receiving this - then again I don't have the ability to do their job.