Feed for OCT...

[Not Long Now]

Had a brief chat with one of our trainees just returned from NERC where they were 'feeding' (on a sector they aren't even training on, let alone valid on), along with some new intake, some 'holders' etc..

Perhaps, as long as someone is putting over/receiving planes it doesn't specifically matter if they're presented as in the real world, it's only a simulation obviously.

Anyone done any of the controlling yet? Up to the usual standard (or not) that you'd expect?

[5milesbaby]

What are you on about??? How do you expect real controllers to feed the OCT too, with the problems already facing the training/LATCC schedule?? If that was the case, why dont we roster controllers for feed for ECT or A/TVC's etc. just not possible. Any feed from a person who at least understands the 'radar' environment is better than none, plus some of the 'weaker' students will soon learn how the operation works in the real world soon enough, as any obvious flaws will certainly be dealt with!! As the proper radar element hasnt started yet, dont knock those who may not need knocking, the company has enough low moral.

[Not Long Now]

We DO roster real, appropriately valid controllers for ECT feed! (Admittedly about the only real thing about it.)

[Numpo-Nigit]

5milesbaby

Just because we don't have the capability to roster appropriately-qualified staff for feed sectors, it does NOT mean that second-best is necessarily good enough. Not Long Now asked a very pertinent question, and I think he/she deserves a more reasoned response - as do the rest of us.

[5milesbaby]

The words the person I know who does the feed at NERC whilst holding for a radar position cannot be posted here. You can slag off the system all you like but dont slag off the people who are rostered to do the feed as they have no choice, and they dont have the experience of the real world, but they at least have the experience of radar, so can learn along the way as they did all the way through the college. Some of these people are going to validate along side us in years to come, and have an ability to do the job. I know there are students at NERC on here, so come on, this is directed at you, what do you think about the negative comments already posted?? Also, not all ECT feed are controllers, but admittedly there sometimes are one or two every now and again.

[Numpo-Nigit]

5milesbaby

You do seem very hot under the collar about this. There may be some justifiable reason for your angst, but having re-read Not Long Now's post a number of times, I cannot see any "slagging" of individuals at all. The question of whether using trainees as feeds for training is a good thing has many facets. The effect on the realism of the simulation is just one, but, in a year when we are all trainees being over-whelmed with simulations, it is a very pertinent concern.

So, just in case my (hopefully) measured words cause further distress, it is not the trainees who find themselves in this position who are being criticised, it is the system that put them there which is being scrutinised.

Back to the original point then. How do the recipients assess the quality of the simulations, and how do the "feeders" believe that they can be helped to improve their service?

[Not Long Now]

I am not 'slagging off' those being used for feed, just wondering if it's really a good idea.
Are they monitored by a valid ATCO or are they just 'making it up'. I don't say that it's necessarily a bad thing for them to be doing something whilst waiting for a training slot, but are they going to be picking up 'bad habits' whilst doing the 'radar'. (You have no idea how old I feel having said that, and can still hear the words of my mentor which I swore I'd never repeat, and now I sound like him!)

And back to ECT, I've never seen or heard of one where feed wasn't from valid ATCO's. Perhaps I'm just lucky.

[Mr Chips]

'ey 'ey calm down.

I think the question asked is
"Are the feeds for ECT good enough"? I think that is a fair point, and one which has been raised before. If anyone at NERC can answer, it would be interesting. I have heard the same comment in the LATCC sims, but obviously OCT is just a little bit critical.

Secondly, are the students at NERC getting any real/valuable training? Again, a valid question, and I for one would be interested to hear the answer, as I know a few of the students posted down there...

[5milesbaby]

As you may of guessed this is something I feel strongly about, and apologise for some of my earlier comments as after re-reading them I believe some are a little ott. The system that has put the T&D students into the feed positions is unfortunate, mainly for the students themselves as yes, they will pick up bad habits. But on the other hand they will know much about the electronics when it comes to their own training.

Mr Chips - the students I know down there aren't getting any real training at all, just picking it up as it goes along, copying the ways of others who have been there longer. Perhaps if these people had been sent to LATCC for a few weeks to sit on a specific suite/area, they could do certain positions that they learnt about when feeding at NERC.

To get a response to how good they are, don't we need an NTT member to reply, as they are the only ones who have done any simulations so far??

And Not Long Now, without niggling you (sorry), all of my course did ECT feed before getting onto radar, and some of my AVC/ECT feeds have been students, or even ACPO's (!!), check the rostering posted on the notice board in the ACR!

[bill]

In my opinion they're doing well.

[FatherJack]

Feed controlling on simulations (OCT, ECT, AVC, TVC) etc is increasingly being carried out APSs. The grandiose title of ATC Project Specialist actually means feed controller. They are ATSA4 grade, and are drawn from varied backgrounds. I can't comment on what training they've had at NERC to perform this function, but at LATCC it's somewhat variable. The APSs involved with AC Training received virtually no training at all, and had to pick up things by chance. Those engaged by TC seem to be getting rather more structured training. None of these people are radar controllers, or ever will be. However, given enough time, training and practice, they will learn to present traffic professionally and as seen in the real world. Should any ATCO pruners find themselves recipients of sub-standard feed services during a simulation, its worth remembering that the feed 'controller' may have had little or no training or practice at what he/she is trying to simulate. You might also remember that after privatisation, when you're on an individual roster, you'll be doing feed yourself, on days 7, 8 & 9 before your 2 days off !

[Take3Call5]

Well FatherJack I hate to dissapoint you but at NERc APS's are NOT simply feed controllers, we have Feed Simulations Specialists who are though, and the T&D's are also simply feeding.
There is a training regime in place at NERC, indeed thats mainly whats happening in the TDU at the moment.
APS's at NERC have jobs outwith the TDU, possibly in Operational Development, Systems, Flight Data and training, plus they'll be assisting in conversion training (MMI aspects) of the LATCC staff when they come down.

[FatherJack]

Not disappointed at all.I'm very pleased for you. It's good to know that people are receiving the proper training to perform the tasks required of them.

[Take3Call5]

FJ why the original comment "The grandiose title of ATC Project Specialist actually means feed controller"?
Do you take pleasure in denigrating other people's achievements? After all the APS grade is similar to the ATSA one, a job which you yourself do I believe?
Purely as an aside several of the APS's at NERC are former military ATCO's (2 are ex-LJAO) and very familiar with the radar environment.

[Mr Chips]

It is a rather long name! I'm sure they could have come up with something better - Hi guys if you are watching.
Father Jack - I'm fascinated - are you anywhere near N412?

[FatherJack]

Where's N412 then ?

[EarlyGo]

Is it near Training Section then?

[BurndenCrashed]

5milesbaby,
We seem a little agitated on this subject. Bit "close to home" so to speak??