Transfer Of Control

[SirToppamHat]

When ac move from one UIR to another (specifically from Europe to the UK), they presumably remain under Radar Control, with control being transferred from one agency/controller to the next. I have two questions:

1. How is the actual transfer of control achieved (do controllers talk? Is it done electronically? Procedurally?).

2. Do airliners carry radios that switch automatically (as has been intimated by some pilots I have spoken to) or do these radios require pilot input? If so, what triggers the change?

Many thanks for any help out there.

Regards

STH

[Chilli Monster]

2. Do airliners carry radios that switch automatically (as has been intimated by some pilots I have spoken to) or do these radios require pilot input? If so, what triggers the change?[
Nothing so modern or magical. Just the standard "Contact xyz on 123.45" and you dial the numbers in and call them.

[bagpuss lives]

We had someone call on a wrong frequency the other day (while bandboxed - the crew in question called on the frequency normally in use) and they explained that his "box of tricks" was programmed that way i.e. programmed to switch to the normal frequency in use.

Personally I thought he was fibbing :)

[DFC]

Transfer of control takes place at a pre-determined point agreed between the ATC centres (ATCC). Info on the flight is passed normally by electronic means at a defined time prior to the aircraft reaching the transfer of control point.

The agreed transfer point will not always be on the FIR/UIR boundary and can be some distance from it.

The required separation and when radar separation can be applied is also agreed by the ATCCs in advance and written into their procedures............eg as far as I remember, traffic at the same level exiting many ATCCs use 3 minutes separation but this can be reduced to 10nm Radar separation in most cases without the controllers having to talk to each other.

If the electronics are broken then the controller or their assistant has to pass the info by telephone....hence slower traffic rates when this happens.

Transfer of communications is a related but separate issue and happens mostly before the flight reaches the transfer of control point..........i.e. you can be talking to the next ATCC but still under the control of the previous which means that if you request a level change the people you are talking to have to either wait until you pass the transfer of control point or ring the other ATC and ask.

Some of the modern FMS/ Radio controllers use the current aircraft position along with the Jeppesen database to give the appropriate frequency to call on...........but the pilot has to make an input to change the frequency.......and if told to use another can dial it in.........................even a cheap handheld GPS with an aviation database will often provide the frequency for the airspace.

Regards,

DFC

[fourthreethree]

Do airliners carry radios that switch automatically (as has been intimated by some pilots I have spoken to) or do these radios require pilot input? If so, what triggers the change?
Automatic transfer of comms, not a good idea!! The transfer oc comms, as explained by DFC, is carried out by the controller, based on several factors, such as clearance from other traffic etc. There is no way a magic box on board an aircraft could know the thoughts and plan of the controller, maybe he wants to keep the aircraft beyond the Transfer of Control Point, after agreement with the next unit. For the pilot to be automatically sent to the next unit before the agreed time would give an assumption of handover of control, and frequency separation is not a safe way of doing things.
Also, frequencies are regularly out of service for a variety of reasons, or can be subject to the collapse status of the sectors within the unit. All this would be unknown by anyone except the controllers concerned.
We do have Datalink with some carriers, whereby we can send silent messages to aircraft via transponder giving the next frequency to the pilot, but again the frequency (or channel) is specified in the message.

[ukatco_535]

Niteflit01

I agree with you.... I think he was fibbing!! Most pilots will dial up the next expected frequency (from plates etc) on box 2, so when instructed they can just flick a switch.

Your pilot probably did this and did not really take note of your frequency instruction - the old brain saying one thing and the eyes seeing another

[Lon More]

TOC can be Time, Place or Flight Level

The old "Inbound release on a c/s, type,f , from dep , todest. Cleared to position and estimating at time. Released at (or passing) Time, Position, or Flight Level.

Learned nearly 40 years ago - is it still used anywhere in Europe?

Lon More, here before Pontius was a Pilot or Mortus a Rigger

[UnderRadarControl]

ukatco_535, niteflite01 -

The pilot may not have been fibbing. I have jumpseated in quite a few planes and several of them (both Airbus and Boeing new models I think) had the ability for the expected order of frequency changes to be programmed. This is great, unless somebody isn't paying attention to what frequency change was issued by ATC. Also, I have had on more than one occasion had an aircraft change the tower freq (while still with me on app) because the button/switch had inadvertenly been bumped.

I will speak to the local A320/330/340 pool and see what they say...

URC

[millerman]

Transfer of Communication if it is coming from London to Europe is usually 10-20NM after the agreed point anyway;) ;)

[SirToppamHat]

Thanks for the responses ... it appears that, whilst some ac may have programmable radios/second radios, for the majority it's down to manual inputting of the new frequency.

Whenever I take a handover, or have an ac check-in, I am immediately looking to 'Identify' the ac and apply the appropriate service. I was always taught that at the point when I say "C/S Identified Radar Control", the contract was made and it became my responsibility to ensure separation was maintained.

I find it strange that a tiny minority of captains seem to find it acceptable to continue on a new sector, without having had a positive statement of change of controller on the new frequency. In particular, if the change of sector triggers verbal direction to change frequency (eg "C/S contact London Centre 123.45"), why is it that captains consider it acceptable to continue without checking-in with the new sector? Are our frequencies now so congested that it is impossible to get a word in?

Not seriously expecting answers, but I'll leave with a multiple-choice question:

You move from one FIR to the next, selecting the next frequency and, having first checked to ensure no-one else is transmitting, call the new controller to announce your presence. The new controller does not respond. Do you:

a. Chop to previous frequency to confirm the new frequency you dialled was correct, then try again?

b. Squawk ident, select Guard, and make a call to establish contact and obtain the new frequency?

c. Plough-on regardless, listening only to static and the company freq, hoping that you will soon be in range of the destination airport and can check-in with them when ready for descent?

If you chose C, just what form of Radar Service are you receiving in the mean time ???

[Lon More]

Choice A every Time

Choice B In theory every unit is monitoring this; you may get many answers, not all helpful

Choice C You aren't getting any - the fighters are getting intercept vectors from Air Defence. When you realise that someone is just outside the cockpit looking in, that's the time to use Guard - but be very polite.

Lon More, Here before Pontius was a Pilot or Mortus a Rigger

[Chilli Monster]

Always 'A', which is why, on 'flip flop' boxes you never preselect the next frequency until you've established contact on this one. There's nothing worse than changing it to the next one expected and then, if you don't make contact, thinking "What was I on just now?". More of a problem with 8.33khz spacing in Europe because the number's not as easy to remember :uhoh:

[SirToppamHat]

Lon More

Exactly the point I was trying to make. Not difficult is it? Yet hardly a day goes by when at least one, highly paid, appropriately qualified and thoroughly professional Captain seems to go with option C, or is at least extremely slow to action the other options!

STH