LCA (Low Cost ATC)

[Hotel Tango]

We have Low Cost Carriers. Are we now heading for Low Cost ATC? So far this year we've handled 5.6% more traffic with less personnel than ever before, but our bosses want to reduce our salaries by 5%. What is the price of safety?

[UnderRadarControl]

HT,

With one of my previous ATC employers, they kept mouthing off about how "Safety will never be compromised". The bit they left off the end is "except when it comes to money".

You are quite correct, as with most ATC in most parts of the world, we are moving more traffic than ever with less than a full complement of staff and (where I am now) pretty much the same salary.

Thats what you get when you choose a thankless (for the most part, anyway) career with enormous responsibility. I don't regret it though - love my job. Hate the beurocracy (or is that Autocracy?) which goes with it. hehe.

URC

[Jerricho]

but our bosses want to reduce our salaries by 5%

While increasing their own by 10%. It's excrement and it stinks.

[Scott Voigt]

The cost of the product has nothing to do with Safety per se. If the sectors or control position is properly manned. Now, the pay will go as low as those who are doing the job allow it to go. It depends on those of you who have negotiators on just what they are going be willing to give up to keep the membership working? For those who work at smaller towers and you have far fewer numbers to replace, it might be easier for that provider to replace you if you are doing an individual (facility) contract. If you are doing it for a country, it might be a bit more difficult for the provider if and only if you have the right to strike and IF the courts are going to uphold it.

It's all what you are willing to fight for, and also how much of your union dues you are willing to spend on the fight. Trust me, to do the PR and the lobbying that you are going to need to just KEEP your pay is not going to be cheap... As we say to our members here, "give to the PAC (political action committee fund) like your job depends on it."

regards

Scott

[M609]

I'm fan of the remotely controlled airport!

Supposedly a test case is underway in Germany, where a former AFIS unit is now (or is about to be) controlled from a nearby larger ATC unit (TWR) via a CCTV and radar contraption!

Great cost saver!

Our greedy management has locked on this hard, since many AFIS units here in Norway is reaching it's movements limit.

10£ on it never getting CAA approval over here at least! :E

[DFC]

M609,

Send me your £10 now...............better still send it to BBC Children in Need.

Edinburgh have CAA approved ATC.

Form the control tower it is impossible to view one of the runway thresholds because the Airport Terminal was built in the way.

In order to view the holding point and runway threshold they use a CCTV system. The same system is used to view some of the stands.

Thus Edinburgh ATC operate a CAA approved CCTV ATC system. The tower could be located in london with the CCTV piped in.

Regards,

DFC

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

DFC.. I don't think it has changed yet, but I might be wrong... At Heathrow we had problems looking down several cul-de-sacs but were told that CCTV would be far too costly. Meanwhile, the balcony of the tower itself plus just about every other building in the central area had a CCTV camera - for the Police to control road traffic!!

[M609]

So DFC, if you board up the windows of the tower cab at Edinburgh, they will still have a CAA approval? Me think not!

.....I will keep my 10£, for a while :E

[DFC]

M609,

IMHO, one of the most important things operating in a tower is to be able to see the runway and holding points..............or have procedures in place that are designed to prevent infringements (LVPs).

One can get away with not being able to see the airborne traffic provided one does not try to provide the reduced separation in the vicinity of an aerodrome.............and since Edinburgh is Class D, VFRs are not separated from IFRs anyway.

The CAA approved the building of the terminal knowing that the view from the tower was going to be obstructed and have continued to permit ATC to operate from a tower with a limited view of the active runway supplemented by CCTV.

Thus I believe that with current technology and the low costs of computing and telecoms, it is possible to demonstrate a similar level of safety (if not higher) in providing an ADC service at Edinburgh using CCTV (more of them though)..........and the use of CCTV is already in part approved and has demonstrated to be safe.

One of the most tiring things about the tower is constantly looking in this direction and that to spot traffic.....that can't be labled with it's transponder code. With technology, we could have a display showing CCTV derived visual information showing more than can be seen from the tower and the traffic could be labled.

It will not be as cheap as building a glass box though and the staffing levels will be the same..........so while it can be done.....it costs too much.

---------

Heathrow Director,

I know what you are talking about regarding the cul-de-sack system at Heathrow..........however, the responsibilities of ATC when dealing with apron traffic and when dealing with traffic on an active runway are vastly different..........even if they use the same cheap system!!

Regards,

DFC

[rodan]

What an interesting post.

DFC - I'm interested, have you ever exercised an ATC license?

[bekolblockage]

... we are moving more traffic than ever ....... and (where I am now) pretty much the same salary.

I wish!
2 pay cuts of 4.25% and 3% in the past 2 years with another 3% cut to come in January. Thats our reward for double digit traffic growth.:mad:

[M609]

I have to second rodans comments DFC....

[athene]

Sorry DFC but you have got it slightly wrong. Yes Edinburgh do use cctv to view the apron stands that cannot be seen from the tower (almost all of them) and it is a useful tool in conjunction with smr to be able to tell if aircraft have pushed back, reached their stand etc. However although there is a camera that points at B1 it cannot be used for controlling aircraft. That is why at Edinburgh you will never receive a conditional clearance for runway 06.


Edited to add that we can see the airbourne traffic, the terminal building isn't that high :ok:

[Topofthestack]

Problem at Edinburgh won't last much longer, they're building a new control tower there!

[DFC]

Athene,

What is the information provided by the CCTV that points at "B1" used for...........and what effect does it being U/S have on easterly operations?

I was under the impression that a conditional clearance relied on the pilot at the holding point being able to see the aircraft on approach that the clearance related to (or the other aircraft ahead on the ground). Does this mean that if Edinburgh were on westerlies, no conditional clearances would be issued if the ATCO could not see the aircraft on final....even if the pilot at the hold could?

Does this mean that you can not give any conditional taxi clearances past the terminal i.e. in the area where you use the CCTV to check that the aircraft is on stand or has pushed back?

The most interesting point in this thred is not the use of CCTV because I believe that it is too expensive if used in anything more than a limited capacity..........but the use of staff at another tower to provide ADC service at more than one place.

Regards,

DFC

[justcoolen]

The privatization of ATC has brought the business factor into day to day operations. Where it used to be Government run, the system was used and abused by all employees, even managers. By privatizing, the government does not look like they are compromising safety to save a dollar. It is now the Company managing business, trying to teach old dogs new tricks.
The upper management are Monday to Friday people who only see $$$ in their sights. They have never talked to a plane, gone down the crapper, only to have your buddy help bail you out, or worked a midnight shift on Christmas Eve. They can't possibly understand the issues facing us, from their high rise, downtown, StarBucks kiosk, executive office building.
The management at lower levels are ATC's who have lost medicals, or separation too many times. The issue is training these people to be "managers." Give a person a few courses, a suit and tie, and now he is a shift manager for a multi billion dollar a day operation. Any other company in the world would have the best trained managers money could buy. Not 'buying' a manager to sell out the controllers he/she worked with for 25 years.

[Jerricho]

Justcoolen, you've just highlighted a worldwide fact. A good controller doesn't necessarily make a good manager. And all the nationwide competitions, courses and tree hugging bonding days won't change that fact.

[athene]

Hello again DFC,
the camera in question makes absolutely no difference in the day to day operations at Edinburgh, to all intents and purposes it doesn't exist. It was added at a time when we were given a second monitor to view the north cargo apron when a tnt hanger was built right in front of it. Basically it is useful to have there just incase things go wrong, if someone were to have an emergency and be on the part of the rw that cannot be seen, for example, but it is not approved for the control of traffic. There is a big difference between issuing a pushback instruction and a clearance on to an active runway. When I am the air controller I am wholly responsible for what happens on the runway and in order to give an aircraft a conditional or multiple line up I have to be able to see the relevant holding point. On westerlies I can see if an aircraft has infringed the runway and issue the appropriate instructions, on easterlies it is much easier to miss. It is a basic safety issue, and while I trust that the pilot may be able to see the aircraft for himself mistakes do happen.
As for the issue of providing ATC from a different location I can think of so many reasons why it is a bad idea, and remarkably few benefits. How would I moitor the circuit traffic for instance, or transitting aircraft crossing through the overhead. What about essential aerodrome information? When I am sat in the tower I can see the flock of birds passing through final at 1 mile, where am I to put the cameras to monitor that? I do see what you are getting at, but quite frankly the thought of it is frightening and I would think you would be hard pressed to find a single controller who would ever agree to work under such unsafe conditions...

[bjcc]

Heathrow Director

The cameras are actualy BAA cameras not Police. A feed is piped into the control room at Heathrow Police station, although the quality is....erm...terrible, and the BAA control room have primary control of them. There are some that can be turned into some of the cul de sacs and possibly no one has ever thought to ask the BAA to allow the tower to have access to them.

[bigflyingrob]

Pay depends on whether you are prpared to go on strike. When the TV union was strong we had good pay and conditions. Once we stopped we went from a 38 week to a 48 hour week in one year. Compare that to a tube train driver £32000 , 52 days holiday and 1 main control.
Sadly the firemen gave up as they will not let people die. It all depends on how ruthless you are

[Avman]

Perhaps it's time for an European ATC union. Imagine the effect an ATC strike covering the whole of Europe!