What would you have done?

[reverserunlocked]

Okay so there I was, paxing from Beirut to Amsterdam.

The 737 is nearly full, and as I'm footing the bill I'm down the back in economy. I'm one of the first to board, but as I reach my seat I find someone already in it, who just waves his arms around when I query him on it.

So I call the FA over, who's actually a rather nice chap, and he investigates. Seems the bloke in my seat is travelling with two others. The FA checks all their boarding passes, and it seems that they're all sitting in the wrong seats. In fact, the seats they should have been sitting in are also occupied, by other people who are also sitting in the wrong seats!

The cabin's filling up fast and the FA quickly realises that there's going to be some serious seat swapping to do to get things back in order, so asks me most politely to come wait next to the rear galley until boarding is over, and as there are apparently 17 empty seats, I can sit where I like.

After standing there patiently like the stiff upper-lipped Brit that we all become abroad for over ten minutes, the FA gets off the interphone and tells me boarding has finished. With a cheeky grin I half-jokingly suggest that he might wish to seat me in business, as I've been inconvenienced a little and I do fly KLM regularly. He gives me a slightly withering look, as if to say' yeh right, dream on' and directs me off to the empty economy seats.

So I wander down the aircraft and sit down. Of course no sooner have I settled down than a late passenger boards and, lo and behold...I'm sitting in his seat! By the time I get unfastened, get up, get my coat, my book and my hand luggage back out of the (now secured) overhead bin I'm clearly holding things up by now. We are imminently about to push back, and we're already late.

So now the entire compliment of the 737 is sat down watching this flustered looking Englishman who seems to have a penchant for sitting in other people's seats and is now wandering up and down the aisle looking for an empty seat. Eventually I find one in the end and sit down, feeling somewhat annoyed.

I'm not one to make a fuss, but I made sure I boarded early, so I could settle down and get strapped in and then get on with reading a book. Instead I ended up being herded from one end of the cabin to the other twice, and looked like a prize gimp in front of a planeload of people, all because someone had taken my seat, and the FA couldn't be bothered to move them.

What would you have done? I feel that a nice gesture might have been to move me to business, or would that entail customer service? Over to you, Ppruners....

[TightSlot]

I've been in this situation, both as Crew and as a passenger, and it's never easy. Some people simply sit where they wish and refuse to move. As a Crew member, there is a real problem - you cannot physically move somebody (you can ask, but no more) and calling police/security is something of an overreaction, and is likely to delay departure. You can start asking for baggage descriptions and receipts and threaten offload, but this needs very careful handling to avoid making the situation worse (or yourself looking like a twit). In my (democratic) one class charter world, an upgrade is not possible - but sometimes you can use exit/bulkhead vacant seats to reseat the innocents, combined with a complimentary drink. I also tend to check the ticket details of the passenger who refuses to move - if he's travelling with us again, I can get various restrictions placed on him, or, if his activities have delayed us or caused serious trouble, he will be refused travel.

Under the circumstances you describe, assuming space/catering available, I would personally have upgraded you.

[Boss Raptor]

Yep know the feeling - however on safety (identity) grounds I insist on getting my allocated seat for a very simple reason...and I make the idiot who is in my seat move...

With the exception of an LCC where there is free seating policy your name and seat allocation goes on the manifest...so if there is an incident i.e. ground fire or air crash and my remains (identifiable or not as the case may be) are found sitting in 'my' seat they know who I am and can give me to 'my' relatives accordingly (although I would hope a dental records check may resolve this but maybe not if the incident is 3rd world)...or I am alive and incapacitated in hospital and they think I am someone else (give me someone else's meds for a known condition that the other person has)...etc. etc. you get the idea...

Seat swopping means that this record is no longer accurate and worse case scenario some other pax's remains are identified as me...

[TightSlot]

Good Point, Boss - I hadn't considered that aspect. The difficulty comes with actually moving the intransigent ones, though... How do you do it? Physical threat or actual violence from either a passenger or a crew member is likely to result in an offload of all involved. I'm sure that you'rre impressive when angry, but there are pleanty of people who just don't care...

[BRUpax]

Generally I will insist on taking my assigned seat if I detect that it's a "try-on" rather than a genuine mistake. On one occasion the FA asked me to take "any other seat to expedite departure". I did, and sat myself in Business Class! I informed the FA up front what I had done, why, and that I did not expect a meal. She said, "OK", and that was it. Oh, and I got the full Business Class treatment including a meal (refused by one of the other BC pax).

[Globaliser]

I'd have been very tempted to have stayed in the seat, told the late pax that I'd been told to sit there by that cabin crew member (which would only have been stretching the truth slightly) and directed the late pax to the rear galley to see him. Chances are that it would have resulted in the late pax also being told to take some other empty seat ...

[Ozzy]

Similar to BRUpax a buddy of mine on a fairly full El Al flight from JFK to Tel Aviv found his coach seat occupied by the father of a three family group (wife and kid). He told the FA the situation and the FA told him to "take any seat you want". So he goes straight to Biz and sits down. Biz FA comes up and asks him who he is and why is he sitting in that seat. He points to the FA he had had the word with and says "She told me to sit here", the response was "Oh, okay". And he got the full Biz treatment too :)

Ozzy

[Boss Raptor]

On the question of how to get them to move I am polite but firm and make it clear I am not going to back off ...usually under the glares of all the other pax stacking up behind me in the aisle even the most ignorant individual will yield...by going to get the FA you are basically indicating defeat...a pax who wont shift and is obstructive under such circumstance should be offloaded and if this delays the flight so be it

[Virgin Boi]

I feel that the above replies are advocating a response that is rather extreme given the circumstances.

Duplicate seating issues are a regular occurrence, often the fault of airline ground staff, and equally often the fault of a passenger - whether intentional or not.

Firstly, and with the greatest respect to TightSlot who flies for a charter airline, I must say that a duplicate seating issue is not, under any circumstances, a situation where an upgrade is required. The obvious exception being when the intended class of travel is full.

When offering an upgrade, especially at such a late stage in the boarding process that all other passengers are seated, it is important to remember the impression this gives to full revenue passengers seated in the business or first class cabin.

How would you feel having paid several hundred / thousand more pounds, only to have someone on a far cheaper ticket sat right next to you.

Perhaps the crewmember in question should have re-sat the original passengers who were sat in the incorrect seats, it's hard to say without being in the situation at the time.

What I can almost guarantee however, is that 99% of passengers (perhaps Boss Raptor is excluded here :rolleyes: ) would rather depart sooner - sat anywhere, rather than later - sat in their allocated seat.

Maybe the crewmember in question was trying to appease the greatest number of passengers given the options available to him.

[Boss Raptor]

Being off the 'old school' I believe that pax. should be accutely aware that for safety etc. etc. the F/A will be obeyed, that the pax. will behave and do as they are instructed on board an aircraft...and this wrong seating situation is just one which is indicative of the poor attitude some pax. unfortunately have...A passenger behaving in this manner at the beginning of a flight could well be a greater problem during the flight...it is certainly an indication

The message to them of appeasement from either the airline, F/A or righful passenger merely allows them to continue to behave in this manner and sets a poor example to others. It is like the school bully who sits at your desk or takes your pen etc. and will continue to do so - why? very simple because he is getting away with it and hasn't been stopped...and where does it stop, air rage next? I used to punch out the school bully even when they were twice my size and they never came near me again :)

An F/A should not be concerned having to ask a pax. to move nor should the cabin crew be placed under any pressure by their airline not to delay an aircraft where a case of cabin safety/discipline is in question

[Final 3 Greens]

It happened to me in Greece in the summer. A lady was sitting in my allocated seat and as neither of us spoke each others language, I asked the FA to help.

It turned out that the woman was on her first flight and didn't understand what a seat number was. As her seat was an aisle seat a few rows back, I offered to swap so she could enjoy the view.

In this instance, it ended in smiles all around and I felt pretty good about being able to help someone else.

[Snoopy]

Happened to me a few years ago out of Vladivostok on a Vladivostok Air Yak-42. Boarded and found a bear of a man sitting in my seat and not exactly the kind of guy you would want to meet in a dark alley at night.... I looked at him, opened my mouth, grinned foolishly and.....went in search of another seat!

:}

[PAXboy]

This happened to me two days ago. On my regular LTH~IOM to see mother, my seat was taken. I knew that the flight was not full and I could have my choice of about a dozen seats. But they moved even as I raised my eyebrows and pointed at the seat number.

I agree with Boss on this one. Also, if my compelling them to move (and possibly others) means that they will get it right next time?? Then I can rest easy, knowing that I have done my bit to educate them and help all of humanity. (Hhmm, why is there not a 'smiley' with a halo on it??) :=

--------------------
"I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you any different." Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.

[Globaliser]

Virgin Boi: When offering an upgrade, especially at such a late stage in the boarding process that all other passengers are seated, it is important to remember the impression this gives to full revenue passengers seated in the business or first class cabin.

How would you feel having paid several hundred / thousand more pounds, only to have someone on a far cheaper ticket sat right next to you.Actually, if you are going to UG someone, I would have thought that this is the time that would cause least offence to the premium class pax. At a guess, a greater proportion of them are likely to be regular pax than us cattle down the back, and those who fly enough as pax will have seen just about everything at some stage.

All premium class pax know or ought to know that sometimes things will happen that mean that Y pax have to be UG. Tell a premium pax: "We've got a bit of a last minute problem with the seats and there's a pax here without one, so we're UGing him to solve the problem and get the flight underway". Would that get a better response than telling the premium pax: "This pax is being UG because he flirted with the check-in girl", or "This pax told the gate agent that he plays golf with the CEO", or one of the other "imaginative" bits of crap that pax come up with every day when trying to blag an UG for free.

I would bet my bottom dollar that the premium pax would be much more understanding of the first reason.

[bealine]

I dunno about other carriers, but for BA it is very important for pax to sit in their allocated seats until the aircraft is airborne (and preferably afterwards).

The plain and simple reason is that we keep records of who occupies which seat. In the extremely unlikely event that an aircraft was to be lost, we (or the CAA) would be able to assist in identifying remains and/or personal property by their location on board.

If everyone has played musical chairs, then a situation like Lockerbie would become a near impossible task........yet Easyjet, Ryanair and the Lo-Cos somehow feel infallible by permitting "free seating", and still insist their operations are safe and secure!!!

Had we been made aware of this situation on a BA registered aircraft, as Ground Staff, we would have insisted on deboarding the aircraft and reboarding to ensure the pax occupied correct seats.

[christep]

This is also, of course, why you are asked to adopt the brace position in the event of a crash. I don't think there's much evidence that it makes much difference to survivability, but it does get the heads below seat level so less of them are chopped off by bits of flying metal, thereby making the identification of remains more straightforward.

Although personally I have never understood why this is important - if you know who was on the flight then you know who is dead - putting the pieces back together won't make them come alive again! :)

[BRUpax]

Sorry Bealine , but when an a/c is only +/- 60% or so full and I'm allocated a crap middle seat when rows are left empty, I re-assign myself! Consequently, I would estimate that about 50% of the time that I travel, I'm not in my assigned seat. If I end up as blubber what do I care anyway! ;)

[Itswindyout]

50% of the time I am on a BA flight, and down in the catle shed, if in a row of 3 and there are aisle seats, free with only a window occupant I will relocate, either with or without the approval of anyone.

As to the main thrust of the thread, I have been UG several times as a result of just this situation. Be very helpfull to the CC, and ye shall be rewarded.....

UG's often happen once on aircraft, more that set up at checkin...

Windy

[bealine]

Yes, you three, you're right, if you're dead you couldn't care less whether we know who you are or not. The trouble is, you've probably got friends, relatives and employers (and creditors possibly???) who do care and would like to have the right bits of you back in a box!

In addition christep, if we have one of those situations, such as Kegworth, where many are dead but some survive, it is much, much better for next of kin to know definitely one way or the other rather than having their loved one posted as "missing".

As for on-board seat moves and upgrades, these are recorded by BA Flght Crew and signalled back to base to amend the passenger manifest accordingly. (If we ever move your seat at the gate, and you happen to observe closely, if it isn't altered in the computer a manual entry is made to the "Passenger Boarding Log" showing, for example, Seat 32B moved to 24C).

Now, BRUPax, your attitude is rather disturbing as you have no possible way of knowing whether a seat is broken or not. By just grabbing a vacant seat without asking anyone could be your undoing! (At the very least, you could end up with coffee in your lap as the table collapses! Of course, any claim against the airline - even for Dry Cleaning - would result in your having to show your Boarding Card and, you guessed it, the emboldened allocated Seat Number could relinquish the airline of any responsibility!)

Of course, if we carry out everything we're supposed to in a disciplined manner, the chances of a disaster occurring are greatly reduced.

I guess this is one of the essential differences between a professional airline and a money-grabber!!! (And now I'd like to get away from this morbid subject 'cos I never want to witness another air disaster - ever!):ok:

[BRUpax]

Oh Bealine, that's a bit patronising. Perhaps I'm just a little more intelligent than you perceive me to be! But, in true Tony Blair fashion, you avoid the issue. The problem manifests itself from poor seat allocation procedures (by the system) on relatively lightly loaded a/c. ;)

[Rwy in Sight]

bealine and others,

Thank you very much for the safety perspetive about changing seats. I did use that as a reason a year ago to a lady friend not to let her move next to me but I forgot in the mean time.

HOwever thinking about it now I have serious doubts about how much helpfull is a list assigining pax to seats when you have seats thrown away from the airframe. (maybe it is to "black" question" to ask but nevertheless I would like to have an answer from the PPRuNe.

I had the same problem last April when people came to my seat holding boarding pass with the same numbers as the ones I was holding. Shor flight on an RJ100 I was not at a particular hurry to reach my destination so I offered my seat and moved by the crew few rows back on the same side of the aircraft.

Now if it was a really long haul the upgrade idea would have been nice.. Otherwise if no seats were available I would have volonteer (sp) for catching the next flight.


Rwy in Sight


May I have now an answer to my question?

[reverserunlocked]

This has become quite a fascinating thread - thanks to all who've contributed. I think the moral of the story is to kick up a well reasoned but but firm fuss if there's someone sitting in your assigned seat and get yourself sat up front in business.

I think that was my problem, that I was a bit too calm about it, especially when the late passenger got on board despite assurances from the CC that boarding had finished. Saying that I do recall muttering under my breath 'this isn't funny now' to no-one in particular as I dragged my hand luggage out of the bin. If I'd just wandered through the curtain into business and sat down, I don't think they'd have had any grounds to make me move!

[bealine]

BRUPax - I am at a complete loss as to why you find my response "patronising?" Perhaps you would enlighten?

On the other hand, on BA metal, I am quite sure of my ground. Short-haul aircraft have rapid turnaround times (Those in the 737 fleet are allowed 35 mins) so broken seats can, and do, go unrepaired for days, until the aircraft is scheduled for routine maintenance. Before you argue the point further, this is a very frequent occurrence!

Now as far a Rwy in Sight is concerned, I am no Aircraft Accident Investigator. However, the professionals the CAA and the RAF employ to sift through wreckage have a trained eye which, I'm reliably informed, can usually identify seat rows and seat positions from a plethora of clues - even if said wreckage is almost entirely burnt out.

Those who remember Lockerbie will recall the swarms of police, army, CAA and RAF personnel scouring the hillsides. The amount of detail in the report is quite staggering.

http://www.corazon.com/103reportcontents.html

Now, whether other airlines are concerned about passenger positions on aircraft or not is their own affair. BA is a professional organisation and chooses to do so!

With the zealous use of Sky Marshals on board international flights, US carriers also tend to be concerned that pax do not switch seats without authority either!

Get Used To It!

[Bealzebub]

The most common reason for finding someone sat in your seat is simply they misread the row. When it is pointed out they normally move. If they don't the cabin crew ought to be able to resolve the problem without too much fuss. It can occur that the same seat has been alocated to two people in error, and when that happens obviously one will need to be re-seated.

The fact that this may happen does not "entitle" the subject to an upgrade although that may on occaisions be the response. It most certainly doesn't allow the passenger to award themselves an upgrade any more than they could award themselves a bottle of champagne from the bar ! Your ticket is a contract for a particular product ( class of travel), it does not contract a particular seat and the airline is entitled to allocate any seat in that specific class. If the airline wishes to materially improve the contract by upgrading a passenger that would be deemed as acceptable. If an airline downgrades a passenger that would amount to a breach of contract and be subject to reimbursing or otherwise compensating the passenger for their loss. Even then the contract is likely to stipulate the maximum loss in such circumstances. Purchasing the ticket and /or travelling on it makes the passenger a party to the contract. Almost all contracts are written to protect the seller of a product and this is no exception.

[BRUpax]

I don't want to get into a fight with you bealine. You are well respected by many, including me. However, that doesn't always make you completely right. For your information I am in the business and I fly BA (Citiexpress) regularly. I have never been told by the crew that I'm not sitting in my assigned seat. I grant you that in rare cases identification may be possible by seat location. However, in most cases it will be most unlikely. Perhaps I have no family who care if I'm blubber or not. And, lastly, you still failed to address the point I make about the computer's crappy seat allocation logic on lighly loaded flights. Oh, and believe me because I know, many positioning flight crew do not occupy allocated seats on light flights. They spread out - which is just what I do. :cool:

[Bealzebub]

BRUpax, "being in the business" you would no doubt also be aware that loadsheets with particular regard to aircraft trim can often be more critical on lightly loaded flights. On a full flight the trim is easier to ascertain. On a less than full flight it is important to know where everyone is sat.

In reality if a few people are not where they should be it is not likely to be critical. Of course I am referring to medium size jets, this might not be the case with smaller commuter type aircraft when it might indeed be critical. The problem comes if others like yourself feel they can ignore the allocation and please themselves. If 12 people do the same that is one tonne of mass that is not where the loadsheet shows it as.

[BRUpax]

Absolutely correct Bealzebub, and I do take several factors into consideration. Of course, as you rightly point out, if a dozen or so pax were to move about it could have serious consequences. Therefore, to avoid the problem I refer once again to my point about the contributing aspect of computerised seat allocation logic.

[Sharjah Night Shift]

When BA started flying the A320 they managed to issue me with a boarding pass for a seat that was not fitted to the aircraft. The cabin crew virtualy accused me of forging my own boarding pass and marched me off the plane.
It turned out that the seat plan in the system was wrong and the gate staff re-assigned my seat to one that did exist.

[boyo25]

I work as CC for BA and if there is space, I will always allow a passenger to move but only once we're airborne to avoid any issues with the aircraft trim. Of course, I always seek permission from the CSD or flight-deck beforehand, and not once have I been told not to allow a pax to do this.

[Bealzebub]

I did read your posts carefully BRUpax, and frankly am a little surprised that you" take various factors into account". I presume that one of them is to discuss your reloading arrangements with the Captain ?

Aircraft loading is not always a simple matter of where the passengers are sat, it frequently involves the combined interaction of how freight is loaded and sometimes how fuel is trimmed into the aircraft as a result. From this a stabilizer trim setting for takeoff is calculated. How the passengers are seated in a less than full aircraft is often dictated by the airlines policy which is programmed into the computers for check in purposes. For example it may be preferrable to load passengers in the rear most section of the aircraft before moving forward, and the instruction to check-in would reflect this.

It is not for passengers to decide their own rules as this might well cause problems and in the extreme case might even cause jeopardy to the aircraft. As has been mentioned, once the aircarft has established itself in flight the auto trim ought to make it feasable for the crew to re-assign passengers to other seats. Of course this should only be after consulting the flight crew.

[bealine]

Of course another factor not taken into account is that, on a lightly loaded aeroplane, the computer seats pax for fuel efficiency (ie a slightly nose-up attitude). If the pax rearrange themselves willy-nilly, the aircraft might then (in an extreme case - some airlines run on very low budgets) have insufficient fuel reserves to cope with a diversion!

Although we're not casting doubt on passengers intelligence -(please don't confuse "intelligence" with "common-sense" as many people possess the first, but surprisingly few display signs of the latter!) - please give us the credit for knowing more about the business of aviation - it is, after all, our chosen career!

boyo25 - I agree. I have never known a refusal to re-seat a passenger, but, on BA "mainline" metal (dunno about BA Cityflyer or the franchises) it is always recorded somewhere!

[BRUpax]

Guys guys guys, your comments are correct up to a point. However, much of what you say is dependent on the type and actual circumstances on the day too. May I say that if on an EMB145 or CRJ or indeed a small turboprop I don't do it. You have to convince me what difference it will make on a B737 or A319/320 on a short 1 hour hop. Why? Because if you fly on a "light" flight with Southwest (or Ryanair/Easy for that matter) it's free seating and pax spread themselves around. So how do they accurately finalise the loadsheet in these cases? I have been flying for 48 years by the way.

[Bealzebub]

The situation you describe with certain low cost carriers who apply a policy of free seating is taken into account with their loading proceedures. That is what happens when I have operated flights for them. The trim is calculated from the actual loads in each passenger compartment. If trim is a problem then passengers are moved.

These flights however tend to carry lower volumes of luggage and little or no freight so that may reduce the complication. That however does not allow you as a passenger to set your own loading arrangements in circumstances when you have been allocated a seat since of course you are not privvy to the specific loading arrangements a carrier may have applied on the day.

I appreciate you have been flying as a passenger for 48 years, but that doesn't mean the basic tenats don't apply to you. I appreciate that where one passenger is sat may have little practical impact on most flights, however the same "rational" applied to a group of passengers with similar lack of specific knowledge other than their own interpretation of the physics may well have a serious impact !

I appreciate you want me to say that since you are the only person on a given flight to "re-distribute" themself then hey go ahead do it. The truth is it is not something that can be permitted to occur from a safety standpoint and by doing it you are in the wrong. If you need convincing and this doesn't satisfy you then the arguement is pointless.

[Final 3 Greens]

The locos do plan for trim - they tend to block out the required rows by loweirng the try tables and then chasing away anyone trying to lift them up and sit there.

Boyo - I once had the experience of a lightly loaded BA 76' on a hop to BRU, where the skipper came on the PA and apologised for cramming everyone together, due to trim considerations - "please don't reseat yourself forward of row XX after takeoff"

I don't fly heavy iron, but you really see the effect of weight and balance on light aircraft with 3 or 4 rows of seats and I am quite prepared to accept that big toys can be sensitive too :-)

[flyblue]

reverserunlocked
passengers seating in the wrong seat is almost a daily occurrence. However it never happened to me that a pax refused to move to his assigned seat (schedule and charter pax can have very different behaviour). Usually the "offender" realises the mistake and moves, or asks if he can keep the seat because it's near his/her travelling companion's. Often the "standing" pax accepts or spontaneously offers to relocate. When it doesn't happen we politely but firmly ask the other pax to take is original seat and look for an alternative (find 2 vacant seats to allow him/her to seat near spouse or the aisle/window seat he wanted). Those are very tricky situations because they have a lot to do with the concept of "territoriality" and it is very easy for a pax to feel "imposed" and refuse to do something just because it's been asked the "wrong" (not a value judgement, I mean "wrong" in that particular case, in order to obtain the result you were looking for). It is very important for us CC to present the problem in a way to defuse the situation and give the pax the impression he/she's not imposed and not make him/her lose face. Just the day before yesterday, I had a Business Class pax who boarded late (from a connecting flight) call me. He explained in an indignant tone that he wanted to put his trolley in the hatrack, but since they were all full the only place available was possible only by moving the duty free bag of another pax. He told me he had asked the owner (evil look at "the owner") but that he had refused. The guy in question was a big moustached Eastern Europe businessman who was looking at our exchange with a fierce expression. I smiled at him my sweetest smile, and told the indignant pax "Oh surely this gentleman misundederstood your intentions, and didn't understand you just asked him if you could move his bag. Let me ask him in English" Then to Mr Moustache:" Sir, would you mind if I moved your duty free bag just in the hatrack next to this? I can take care of it, you don't need to move. That would be very kind of you and would expedit our departure." More smile. He agreed with a moustached grin, and more grin when I offered another glass of champagne.
Going back to the seat issue, I believe a pax has the right to get his assigned seat if he wants it. In the situation where the other firmly refused to leave it, and no other satisfying solution could be found, I would inform the captain (refusing to comlpy with a request of the crew is stage 2 of indiscipline) and try to sort it out with the help of the ground staff. I don't think we would need to deplane or have the pax carried off the aircraft because I'm sure another solution would be found before, but in no case I would let down the pax who was originally assigned a seat, like it's happened to you.

[Tony Flynn]

Flyblue, you are a Goddess......!