Strike?

[niteflite01]

So, I see certain sections fo the media seem to think we're all going on strike at Easter time - which is nice http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif

So, I'm wondering if we could have a "show of electronic hands" if you like and see just who would be prepared to strike in opposition to PPP and even perhaps SERCO's involvement - as mooted in the media.

Speaking personally yes, I would be prepared to strike although it would be a shame as I love my job so much (and I realise that that may be deemed as "sad" by some people!. More the reason to strike to protect it then!

Don't forget we're all speaking hypothetically here - should the need and the circumstances arise for action - would you take it?

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"Go around..I say again...go around"

[Bern Oulli]

I'm with you Niteflite. We are the best in the world and I for one would like to see us stay that way. On reflection though it doesn't say a lot for the rest of the world, organisationally speaking, does it?

Quick, nurse it's happened again!

[identnospeed]

Two conflicting rumours heard today:

1 - Serco is offering £100 million more than the other two and therefore is seen as a good bet.

2 - Serco and Lockhheed-Martin have been abandoned by their Venture Capital backers, making their bids unfavourable.

Anyone alse heard the same?

INS

[squawk 6789]

i'll strike- twice if necessary!!!!

(ain't gonna happen though)

[Magnetron]

Will be the saddest day of my long career, but I feel we are being forced into it by the current management.Is there a hidden agenda here, being driven by the future management,to shift the blame for NERC/McNERC to the hardest working,most professional people I have ever met in the aviation industry

EDIT
I just re-read your post,what do the media know about what I am going to do when I do'nt have the faintest idea and have certainly never voted on


[This message has been edited by Magnetron (edited 30 January 2001).]

[Numpo-Nigit]

Calm down everybody!!! I suspect either a non-attributable, off-the-record briefing by somebody in NATS trying to wind us up, or a journalist with a few facts trying to make a story on a slow-news day. As was said above, we will certainly find out by means other than the media if a strike is even contemplated. The legislation covering industrial action is very comprehensive and involves various hoops to be jumped through over quite a long period, so don't expect rapid action whatever happens.

Good news if Serco backers have pulled out though!!!!!!!

[250 kts]

Just in case-count me in (or should that be out)?

[daft fader]

Ident nospeed:

A juicy bit of gossip!(rumour number2)

Where did that come from?

Perhaps there is a God.

[This message has been edited by daft fader (edited 30 January 2001).]

[identnospeed]

The rumours of backers withdrawing (allegedly !) may be just that, but there is no smoke without fire !!

IMHO the Govt would prefer the Airline group, because the safety issue is paramount.

The NATS Senior managers would prefer Lock-Mart, because they have greater experience of Worldwide ATC systems contracts ( and would be more likely to "grow the business")

And Serco would like themselves to get it because they can sweat the assets and make money.

Allegedly, in each groups' presentation to the Govt, Serco were the only team which never mentioned Safety. Lots of effeciencies and economy though.

Also rumoured : NATS managers are getting jittery about the poss of Serco and are hinting to the Govt that a Serco takeover would not necessarily be a good idea (re:safety). However, the Govt are likely to think that it is just NATS SMG scaremongering in an attempt to save their own skins, before they get wiped out.

Bids in by Weds 31st Jan, results on Feb 18th, in the public domain before the 28th.
PPP by June.

INS

[North of the Border]

Also heard Identnospeeds No 2 rumour at work today. The Venture Capitalists were wanting to make a quick buck but have now decided that they will not be able to do this with NATS. £800m to buy half the company, £1.1 Billion investment (at least) over the next 10 years, CAA setting pricing regulation (RPI-?) and the possibility of being offered more of NATS in 4 or 5 years time. The figures just do not add up.

NOTB

[Chatterbox]

Hate to say this but,
normally the ones who sound off most about strike action are either the last ones "out the door" or the first to cross the "lines".

Mind you if that's the case, at least the same person will switch the lights back on!!!!!

[Roger That]

INS,

Try --> http://news.ft.com/ft/gx.cgi/ftc?pagename=View&c=Article&cid=FT3Q2U45MIC&live=true&useoverridetemplate=IXLZHNNP94C for the story.

If this doesn't work go to www.ft.com (http://www.ft.com) and do a search on NATS and you'll find the article confirming the "withdrawl" of Apax and PPM - Typical bankers eh !

RT

[Numpo-Nigit]

Back to rumour #1. I believe that the ATSAs are planning a ballot on industrial action in protest at PPP. I know no more; perhaps Mr Chips or somebody else can fill us in on the details/timescale.

Anyway, typical journalists!!!! ATSA/ATCO, assistant/controller - what's the difference?

[BuzzLightyear]

News At Ten tonight carried the strike story.

IPMS made a statement saying that we would be balloted.Hasn't come to soon if you ask me, we should have made this move months ago.

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To infinity and beyond

[passepartout]

Love my job...Love doing it...I frequentley congratulate myself on being one of the very few in Britain who goes to work thinking Im going to enjoy today...For those pilots reading this forum,there is nothing like coming off a busy session (adrenalin buzzing),knowing you have delivered everybody safely..I know I can do that because I have the back up...A history of people who are just as dedicated as I am....The future we fear...Many would claim that we are protecting ourselves....Please believe me ...they are lieing...Controllers are worried that the service they love and strive to provide is being eroded...Privatisation (ppp) is WRONG!!!
You all benefit (and suffer) from an impartial ATC...but at the end of the day what would you rather have?...an ATC service impartial to everybody or an ATC service that gives you what you want but dis-regards,ambulance flights ,rescue helicopters,transplant flights,,training flights/pilots,police helicopters. In short do you think that your company is ready to pay the extra bucks to pay for the service that it is already getting as part of the bargain. I agree with strike action...it pains me to say so ,I love giving you guys the best service...i am now being told who I will give that service to...into which category do you fall???

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

UK state Air Traffic Control Officers have never taken strike action in an ettempt to benefit themselves. The only time we did strike was an ill-conceived attempt to help government scientists. I, along with many colleagues at Heathrow, stayed out and I guess I've regretted it ever since (especially as I have to work an extra 3 days fter retirement to make up for it!!).

Striking is the ultimate industrial action we can take... but remember the US controllers and remember how power crazed management/government are. I don't care what anywone says - like it or not we'd never win against these megalomaniacs.

[Bern Oulli]

Check out the news today guys 'n'gals. It would seem that the Annual Delegate Conference has voted to ballot on strike action, subject to emergency talks with Lord Macdonald.
Quote from the Independant's web-site: "Leaders of the 1,800 controllers warned that they could stop all flights in and out of Britain at Easter, action which would affect thousands of holidays."

Nothing about it on the Union's web-site however.

Disregard my next transmission.

[VYT1]

I dont know what everyones feeling on striking is but we will become instantly thevictims of labour smear and disinformation.I agree 100% with strike action to help keep us at the top level of ATC service providers and will as a member be out.HOWEVER the union must start now to put our message accross to the public the news reports are already confused about what exactly we are doing and with that smug prat Prescott putting his considerable weight behind press releases etc we would soon become the holiday makers enemy and not friend.Lets get the message across we are not striking for more just what we have and against a foolish illconcieved policy to release money to buy votes at the election. Sorry to go on.

[AyrTC]

I have to have some sympaty with Heathrow Director.I was out in 1981. Ahh the joys of "rolling action".
After the strike I vowed I would never go on strike again unless it was for a strong ATC cause.
I am not against Industrial action but for all you keen action takers out there striking is not a picnic.Friendships are lost
relationship are strained.People are put under huge pressure for various reasons.
Oh and this may seem obvious, you don't get paid.Its amazing how many canteen radicals seem to be unaware of this!
Yeah we may have to go out on strike but make sure its for a correct ,strong and just reason.
I am prepared for some debate on the above points but if you have never been on strike or been on a picket line lads/lassies,quite frankly you do not know what you are talking about.
Ayr TC http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif

[Nick 'the zone' Falzone]

God - what a bunch of flag wavers . Yeah , we provide a damn good service but lets not get into that NATS has the best controllers in the world pish . Privatisation , has for and againsts . Lets be realistic - most of the guys on my sectors are really concerned with their wages being screwed around with rather than the safety margin . And managers - are just running scared for their jobs . Too many cooks and all that . But for the boys who watch the skies - I dont feel we have much to worry about . Strike is an option - but we aint there yet .

[Mr Chips]

I havgen't heard anything about ATSA strike action, but our union has an anti-PPP meeting on the 9th. having read what the three bidders have said to the union (PCS), Serco seem to be intending to cut staff - including ATSAs.
See you at the meeting?

[niteflite01]

Having also read that union blurb Mr Chips I simply couldn't believe what SERCO were saying. It's no wonder the Union were apalled! I suppose at least they're "honest", albeit in a perverse way!

I found it interesting what the Lockheed-Martin lot said - something along the lines of how they thought it was interesting the way ATSA's have been given increased responsibilites and duties. Hmmmmm wonder what that means reading between the lines?

I'm also sure that if the ATCO's strike the ATSA's would be "out" too.

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"Go around..I say again...go around"

[form49]

Strike action is the last thing that I would want to see happen, however I feel that it is inevitable given the circumstances and the facts previously mentiones in this thread (re. SERCO).
Many years ago, my dad worked in the mining industry and he went on strike for the good of the industry and his fellow workers, for over a year, he and my mother manned the picket lines desperate to make people understand what the government was doing to his family. Since that time, he has not spoen to his best friend (of over twenty years and best man at his wedding), because this friend chose to cross a picket line in order to get the money to feed his family.
Granted, the circumstances are different, but there will be people, friends who we work with who will cross a picket line and go to work, not because they don't believe in the issues, but because of neccessity.
I have been staunch supporter of the union ethic throughout my life and firmly believe that a single voice representing the views of the many WILL BE HEARD.

But be prepared for yonur friends crossing the picket lines and don't hold it against them, it'll be the hardest choice they'll ever have to make.


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Turn left heading 230, close from the left, report established

[This message has been edited by form49 (edited 05 February 2001).]

[DontPanic_DontPanic]

UK colleagues.......
Having gone through privatisation ( In NZ ) and subsequent strike action ( because all other avenues were exhausted), all I can say is ; if , as I assume, have also come up against a brick wall then........work very hard on sticking together and Scr*w them and take the action!!!!
Yes, you will vilified by some parts of the media ( " damned if you do and damned if you don't") and you will lose colleagues to the other side and quite possibly friendships etc. If that is the price to pay for safety and the retention of pay and conditions then so be it.
We had privatisation thrust upon us with every promise in the world that things would be wonderful for us in this new corporate enviornment.We believed it. It was all RUBBISH... It may not happen straight away but , be in no doubt, the sinking lid will start. CAA will be a puppet and will rubber stamp procedure changes that will be " very questionable".
Be strong and united and take everything you are promised and told with a pinch of salt. Good luck.

[slurp]

i find it hard to believe the apathy from all grades regarding this issue...the battle isn't over ...to sit back and allow SERCO (a self publicised outsourcing company ) to destroy what is a highly efficient organisation would be tantamount to suicide..get up and make your voices heard.Our present mangers are having second thoughts on SERCO,but it seems the Goverment seem hellbent on SERCO.One thing is for sure ,industrial strife will continue if SERCO get in,the battle starts now.

[WebCreator]

If you haven't seen the other posts, I have now created www.nats-ppp.com (http://www.nats-ppp.com) so please support that site with comments, opinions, articles and views - wherever they are from. I'm not aligned to anybody other than myself so help me to help you and the flying public at large.

[OrsonCart]

The Independent newspaper carries a story that the government has delayed announcing a decision relating to naming a successful bidder for the 46% of NATS being offered due to concerns over possible strike action by air traffic controllers. (Feb 8th edition).

[Warped Factor]

Re the above, see.....


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/Business/Inside_Business/2001-02/decision080201.shtml

WF.

[slurp]

At last one of the Newspapers has mentioned the fact that SERCO run some 'small regional airports',is the time not right for some investigative journalist to look at just how these airports are run?And to look at the failures of SERCO ..i e Liverpool , Bailbrook etc ?

[shakinghead]

slurp
I think you'll find Serco are no longer at Liverpool and havent been for over 18 months.
The reason they are no longer there is simply that the airport owners considered it cheaper to run all the services in house.



[This message has been edited by shakinghead (edited 09 February 2001).]

[PoxyJock]

Nick the zone Falzone. If you really think we, as in Controllers have nothing to worry about you are sadly mistaken. How would you feel with individual rosters? And you can forget 4 days off in every 10. And if, God help us SERCO get in they are looking at no ATSA's at all (that's right none at all!) within 2 to 5 years so who do you think will be doing their job?? I guess that'll be us in our breaks then!

This is going to affect everybody in the organisation in a very big way, and the only way we can influence the decision or the nature in which the new company operates is to strike. I agree it could get messy, but if we don't do it now, then we deserve everything we get. Hopefully we can change the governments mind on this ridiculous idea, it is not too late.

[Eric T Cartman]

@ HEATHROW DIRECTOR. Not one of "JK's Bandits" during the EGLL dispute then ?

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Damn, I got old quick !

[LockedNready]

Well said Poxy Jock. This concerns us all. By all accounts IPMS and PCS jointly met Lord Macdonald yesterday and before they met him had one hell of an unholy row which reading between the lines was because PCS got the impression IPMS were not wholly convinced of taking the necessary action that is needed to have any chance of seeing the SERCO threat go away. Yes the ATSAs will be first in the firing line as they come under the umbrella of 'support staff' along with admin. Once SERCO have ripped the heart out of the ATSA grade and those left are working for half original money, totally unmotivated in their work, they will come after the 'overpaid' ATCOs. Individual contracts and rosters along with a tightening of annual leave priveleges are just around the corner. No more 14 days off for only six days leave. The SERCO way is back to work the next day after your last requested day off. This must be fought for now, together. If you are quite happy to watch the ATSAs take a hit first and you sit back and do nothing about it, don't complain when in 12 months time its the turn of the ATCOs to suffer. Remember, the ATSA grade is quite old as things go but the majority of ATCOs still have a good 20-25 years work ahead of yourselves. You may be quite content now, but will you still be looking forwards to 20 years work 5 years from now after SERCO have ruined years of great teamwork and reasonable terms and conditions. Its now or never folks as there will be no going back. We owe this one to all of us.

[slurp]

Very nicely put LockednReady....seems like the 'head in the sand brigade ' really think this is no big deal.Heard a rumour...a real rumour that SERCO would like Manchester Centre at LATCC...all under one roof..less Admin etc

[The Bishop]

Human aspects aside 'slurp' (moving, upheaval etc),whats wrong with a 'super centre'? (I know...someone takes the wrong fuse out etc. But seriously - assuming acceptable redundancy, why not?).

Doesn't it save admin costs compared to distributed units?

The UK is one of the world's most expensive places to live. If you can put all the ACC guys/girls in one place it must save money in the long run. The Kiwis closed Auckland, it pi$$sed people off but the supercentre at Christchurch does the lot (any Kiwis care to comment?).

[This message has been edited by The Bishop (edited 09 February 2001).]

[Mr Chips]

PCS meeting this lunchtime. Talked about industrial action. Also mentioned that at SERCO units ATCOs spend their breaks doing ATSA duties - as CRATCOH says you must be "off RADAR for 30 mins after 21/2 hours" Is that true?
pay, conditions etc can be changed from day 1, no TUPE applies.

[slurp]

Bishop...yeah not a problem for me ...I m already here ...don't know what the Manchester lads would say ..i e cost of living etc

[The Bishop]

Slurp
What? Already in Swanwick? ;)

You can all shop for real estate together :)

http://www.alloftheabove.net/images/CAHR/Special/AnimatedGIFs/headlessanm.gif

[This message has been edited by The Bishop (edited 11 February 2001).]

[slurp]

Bishop...no ,working at the real place!!! not the white elephant down South

[niteflite01]

Surely the idea is already in place for a "supercentre" at NERC so why the fuss about MACC moving to LATCC? We're all expecting that anyhow (or the area side of things is anyway) - perhaps it won't be a popular decision but I'm sure it will come one day.

I'd rather know I and my colleagues are going to have jobs, a decent pension, excellent training, good support staff and that we're not all going to be worked to the bone - literally!

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"Go around..I say again...go around"

[EarlyGo]

Totally agree with LockedNReady, if you are an ATCO at LATCC (for example) do you really want to do 2 hours on radar on a July afternoon and then spend an hour or two on the wings, bashing strips, doing re-routes, amendments, diversions, updates and all the other stuff we do? Most ATSAs are professional and knowledgable about the airspace and traffic, leaving the ATCOs to get on with the actual ATC. If you don't appreciate the support tasks, maybe its time you started. ATSA losses will not be to ATCOs' benefit. Remember, if IPMS and PCS don't work together, we're not as strong. Divide and conquer is a classic tactic, one that SERCo are no doubt good at. Think hard.

[BombBay]

As a non - NATS atco, SERCO are a known quantity to me, (although I dont work for them now).
The alternative bidders are a totally unknown quantity to most people.
Can anyone list the improvements the alternative bidders would make to NATS and the system, and also how do you know that after 5 years they are not going to take the same route that some seem to think that SERCO will? http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/confused.gif

[LockedNready]

BombBay- the facts seemingly on the table are this. The Lockheed lot are deemed out of the running leaving SERCO and the Airline Group. When the 3 groups met the unions during the first week of Jan they spelt out their intentions. The airline group confirmed that they were in it not for profit but to keep the aircraft in the air as near damn it on time. They see no point in big cut backs in operational staff if the aim is to keep delays down to a minimum. They also pledged to keep present terms and conditions in place for all staff but admitted some cutbacks would be necessary and these cutbacks would come from the present NATS surplus agreement, which in a nutshell means cutting the numbers from the top end of the age bracket. Meanwhile SERCO have said almost the opposite and who knows quite foolishly for their own chances of winning the bid. Terms and conditions will only be honoured for 6 months, so big change looms from October 1st onwards. Redundancies will be made from the cheapest option and thats last in, first out with them only obliged to pay you off with one weeks salary for each year worked. So any ATCO/ATSA out there in your 50s who think an early retirement with a few quid is around the corner can forget it. SERCO want you to work until you reach 59/60 or you call it a day voluntarily because you can take no more. You will then be replaced by new youngsters on SERCOs pittance salary scale especially for support staff.

So from what I've said who would you choose even if one is an unkown quantity??

[Yellow Snow]

With regards to MACC going to NERC to form a big 'Supercentre', just imagine if you will..................................
How much money would be saved if Scotnerc wasn't built but the facility moved into NERC, which easily has the space.
I for one wouldn't put it past them

[Bright-Ling]

WHAT.........???

No McNerc??? Surely not.

oh, BombBay: The fact that they ARE a known quantity is enough. We are not saying that we prefer the other bidders, or any at all! I for one would see the airline group as less of a worry. That is how bad SERCo are thought of.

[North of the Border]

They have just erected new gates at the entrance to the greenfield site for NSC. I do hope this is to keep unwanted people(SERCO) out.
We need to let our intentions be known. We need to strike.

NOTB

[Chilli Monster]

LockedNready
"No more 14 days off for only six days leave".

Well - all I can say to that is welcome to the real world - and I'm not just talking about ATC here :)

Mr Chips
"Also mentioned that at SERCO units ATCOs spend their breaks doing ATSA duties - as CRATCOH says you must be "off RADAR for 30 mins after 21/2 hours" Is that true?"

Not true - CRATCOH is CRATCOH and you have a break away from position. I would have thought that any self respecting ATS Manager would enforce this anyway. You seem to have the attitude that SERCO Controllers are a bunch of Company clones who can't think for ourselves like you wonderful free spirited NATS bods - B***LS**T.

[identnospeed]

Chilli,

Are Serco going to ensure that we DO get "self-respecting" ATS Managers ? Or are they just going to be self-respecting managers, with an ATS brief ?

INS

[Spotter]

There are attitudes here which I also see in some of the pilot forums, between the likes of BA & Midland and the smaller operators.
There are people who are so full of their self importance that they cannot see the real issue.

1...Just because you happen to be employed by a major player in the industry does not confer upon you god like qualities, beyond the reach of lesser mortals, who because they work for a smaller company and are paid less probably go to bed each night wishing they could be like you.


2...Just because you work for a smaller company, and you get paid less, get less leave etc, what good is it going to do you to see the terms & conditions of the larger companies brought down to your level? If you end up as part of the same company through a takeover do you really want to be working the busiest sectors in the UK for the same as what you are getting now?

Even if you have no desire to leave your current unit, would it not be more beneficial to aspire to improving your company's terms & conditions upwards to acheive parity?

We are all ATCO's, NATS, SERCO, HIAL & privately run airports. Most of us could probably do each others' jobs just as well with adequate training. Ultimately what happens with PPP will affect all of us directly. Do not think that dragging down the terms & conditions of NATS ATCO's will not have a negative knock on effect across the whole UK ATC industry.

[slurp]

well said spotter..arguing about leave,pay etc amongst fellow ATC units and personnel lessens the case against the evils that may be thrust upon us.

[AyrTC]

Chilli Monster
Remember that staff at the majority of NATS Units get"so much time off" because we are H24 and have a double night shift duty rostered in the cycle. Some of the days are sleep days .And by the way NATS ATC are in the real world :rolleyes:
AyrTC

[Warped Factor]

Interesting link....

http://uklabour.about.com/aboutuk/uklabour/library/weekly/aa050201b.htm

WF.

[RogerOut]

Chilli-monster, in my previous incarnation prior to becoming an ATCO, which is as real as real world can get, I used to take a week off (legit) guess what - I got the adjoining weekends/public holidays as well.
Methinks the word "schadenfreude" was made for your comments.

edited because HTML didn' work.......

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RogerOut
I Keep Mine Hidden

[This message has been edited by RogerOut (edited 11 February 2001).]

[Chilli Monster]

RogerOut

I've looked at a calendar - a week plus adjoining weekends (including a bank holiday) becomes 10 from 5 days leave - 6 from 14 is taking the P*** but nice if you can get away with it :)

I think you miss the point somewhat. The average man in the street sees comments like 14 from 6 and he's not going to give any action the support that is required from outside the ATC community - more like he's going to think "Lucky beggars - what makes them think they're so special. Why should they get all this time off for no apparent reason."

As someone pointed out before - this should not develop into a situation of NATS v non-NATS sniping at each other. The only way that this is going to be resolved is on a question of SAFETY - that is all the man in the street is interested in. He doesn't give a stuff about pay, conditions etc because we are just seen as servants to the industry for when he and his family go on holiday - put together a case based on safety and fact, not conjecture and you'll get support from outside. Anything else such as pay and conditions and you won't get the interest because Joe Bloggs has his own problems in that respect.

[Mr Chips]

Chilli - chillout, I asked a question....

Can anyone confirm the CRATCOH rules please. Do you have to have a break, or a break away from position? It seems to me that the latter could be ATSA duties, because it is away from RADAR

No, I don't know the CRATCOH rules (for one obvious reason)but I did fancy the typist who typed up the minutes of the meetings...

[taildragger2]

Nothing to do with me , I'm a pilot but this is incredible reading!

.............sorry to butt in .............................Tailwinds.........TD2

[DB32]

Mr Chips (and anyone else interested)

SRATCOH rules and everything else you ever wanted to know about the licencing of ATC providers and ATC staff is at

http://www.srg.caa.co.uk/documents/CAP670_Iss1_Am4.pdf

It's 608 pages long and the SRATCOH bit is in part D annex C. Basically right at the end page 605 or near there.

[atcomatic]

Just wanted to ask a silly question (possilbly)...

With regards to striking on one particular day, how would that work with the watch system when you bear in mind that not all the watches would have been working on that day anyway?

Would it mean that the strike would have to last more than 24 hours so we did get EVERYBODY out?

[OrsonCart]

The media are reporting that BALPA have weakened their stance against PPP and are broadly supporting the Government.

Maybe they are hoping to gain ATCO's as members if the airline group wins the bidding process!

Thanks BALPA!

[slurp]

OrsonCart...which paper was that in???If PPP comes in the Airline Group are the only realistic group to maintain the system as it is now

[OrsonCart]

Sunday Herald - www.sundayherald.com (http://www.sundayherald.com) 11 February 2001

Pilots back off privatisation battle. Air traffic control public-private partnership plan is no longer 'totally opposed' by pilots' union.

Britain's airline pilots have abandoned their hard-line opposition to the privatisation of the air-traffic control system. The pilots, who initially branded privatisation as a "Railtrack of the skies", now say they are not totally opposed to the plans. The change is likely to dismay air-traffic controllers - who believe that travellers face a chaotic "battle of Britain" this spring unless the government changes its mind.

The controllers' union - the Institution of Professionals, Managers and Specialists - has already voted to ballot for a strike if the government refuses to cut any profit element from the privatisation scheme.
Transport Secretary Lord Macdonald met the air-traffic controllers last Wednesday. The meeting appeared not to have influenced the government's determination to press ahead with the public-private partnership (PPP) scheme. A Department of Transport source said: "There is no change to the government's plans. And, following the selection of our preferred strategic partner, we hope to have concluded the process before the end of March." A spokesman for the British Air Line Pilots Association said it too was "in the process of holding sensitive discussions with the government". He told the Sunday Herald yesterday: "It would not be correct to say we are totally opposed to privatisation." The abandonment of Balpa's total opposition to the sell-off will give heart to both Deputy Prime Minister John Prescott and Lord Macdonald but will be a severe let-down for the controllers.

Last week, a representative from Balpa attended the annual IPMS conference. The pilots' solidarity with the controllers was described by one source as "crucial" in convincing the government that there was a united front against the part- privatisation of National Air Traffic Services (NATS). Balpa may be trying to win a similar formula to that of the London Underground, taking into account the government's U-turn on earlier plans to privatise the Tube. London Mayor Ken Livingstone and his appointed transport chief, Bob Kiley, succeeded in winning what they called "the crucial argument of unified management". However, the Balpa spokesman would not discuss any details of the new negotiations with the government. Nevertheless, a DETR source said that no change in the government’s plans was envisaged and that the bidding from three companies aiming to take a 46% stake in NATS (valued at around £310 million) was proceeding. The controllers' union, unlike the pilots', now seems resigned to industrial action, probably in the spring. IPMS national officer Iain Findlay said: "Air traffic controllers are not militant by nature and we don't make decisions such as that made at our conference without carefully considering the consequences." The controllers' last industrial dispute was in 1981. "That was over pay. This is different," said Findlay. He added: "The government's proposals will put the profit motive to the fore and, as the disastrous results of rail privatisation have shown, where profit and safety are in direct conflict, safety will always be the loser."

Findlay and the IPMS believe the sale of NATS is one of Labour's broken promises from the 1997 manifesto. He said: "The statement 'Our air is not for sale' was made by the then shadow transport minister Andrew Smith at Labour's party conference in 1996. This means they have reneged on a pre-election pledge."

Under the part sell-off, the government will retain 49% of NATS, with employees holding the remaining the 5% in non-tradable shares. However, the IPMS is sceptical that the government will continue to hold on to the 49% "golden share". Despite last week's meeting with Lord Macdonald, Findlay said that the government was still refusing to discuss alternatives to PPP, such as an independent publicly owned corporation that would be non-profit-making. Part-privatisation, say the controllers, will lead to a "gradual reduction in air-traffic control safety standards throughout the UK. It would also make the UK the first country in Europe to privatise its skies. "Whatever the outcome," said Findlay, "it seems this spring might see the start of a second 'battle of Britain' - if not in the air, then on the political battle front in the run-up to a general election. Given the arguments against the privatisation, this might be a battle better avoided by this government rather than face the prospects of being shot down in flames."

[Warped Factor]

Is it worth copying the above over to Rumours and News to make it known to the wider BALPA audience there?

WF.

[250 kts]

Yes it is. The BALPA chairman at conference gave NO hint at all that they were not in total support of IPMS. Thie could well be the start of the government campaign to try to put pressure on the public and employees not to take action. Well as far as I'm concerned the action can't come soon enough. Let's take the kid gloves off and do our damndest to make sure SERCO don't want to go anywhere near this contract.
It'll be no good moaning in 6 months time - we all have the opportunity to make our feelings known now - let's not blow it.

[OrsonCart]

So why will industrial action make Serco want to ditch the contract? Loads of profit for their shareholders which is demanded of thier board and minimal impact long-term on thier investment. Are you prepared to strike without pay for weeks on end? Not many will!

Serco are proven infrastructure providers well versed at removing old aged terms and conditions from government departments. My problem with any industrial action is the fact that it could be taken on safety. Are Serco an unsafe ATC provider? Whatt facts can anyone prove that by reducing terms and conditions and sacking staff will be unsafe.

One could argue that the threat of the sack will make staff focus upon thier ability to do thier job and keep thier salary.

Please do not get me wrong, the operation of ATC for no profit is utopia. The time to stike has passed, no threat of industrial action will frighten Serco off!

What is more important, you mortgage, or priciples, a question all of us will have to answer.

[This message has been edited by OrsonCart (edited 13 February 2001).]

[EnglishPatient]

Orson...Do you really think If we staged a once/twice a week strike in different area's ie, AC / TC / Airports that the airlines and their (note the spelling of their) revenues would find this acceptable ?

Will the government be able to sustain such a disruption so close to a general election with us shouting from the pickets "you said our air is not for sale and that was your last election promise" or "avoid a paddington disaster of the skies - NATS is not for profit" ?

Its time to play call my bluff. IPMS/BALPA/PCS together we can all still bring about a u-turn on this one, but we need to be more vocal, we need keep reminding the public what its all about!

As for Serco, well how many employee's do you know who would prefer to work for NATS than that incompetent bunch, I could start a whole new thread of them.

When the ballot comes, vote for selective striking, it can and will work if you hold your nerve and believe in the resultant principals and not the bottom line on your wage packet.

[Fanny Adams]

ENGLISH PATIENT

I'm with you all the way on this. I just hope many more of our colleagues can see the potential mess with terms and conditions, pensions, rosters that lie ahead if SERCO get their grubby hands on them

'Marching on together' as they say in Leeds

[form49]

Orson, are you so naive that you believe that if SERCO take over NATS then nothing will change:

1. The resultant job losses amongst assistants, engineers and admin staff will result in increased workload for the ATCO's.

2. The forecast increase in traffic levels will result in an increased workload for the ATCO's.

3. The lack of investment in new technology (outside swanwick and McNerc?) will result in increased workload for the ATCO's

4. Working for an organiation that puts profit before everything else will result in an increased workload for the ATCO's.

Couple all of these with the SERCO reputation for profiteering and sacking people who don't meet their specific targets then there is a safety related case to answer.

I don't want to strike, but I'm damn sure that I will to make sure that the great British public knows exactly what they're letting themselves in for whe they board an aircraft under the direction of a SERCO employee.

PPP is inevitable but if we stick together then we can make it a NOT FOR PROFIT organisation, thus ensuring that the safety standards we set today will not be compromised. If that means SERCO pull out, then so be it!!!



------------------
Turn left heading 230, close from the left, report established

[Matt Spartou]

As a new pprune I probably shouldn't stick my head over the parapet, but here goes...

although I'm not in favour of PPP, what do you think any form of industrial action will achieve? We came close to getting the thing thrown out by the Lords, but the government want this to happen, so it will. With the deadline rapidly approaching I feel defeat is certain.
Don't want to get into long debates over this, it's just how I feel.

[OrsonCart]

I am glad to see my post has stirred people up, because one thing is for sure, post April 1st life within NATS will be very different and decisions taken now by the government and the unions will affect the future

I still maintain that if ATCO's are offered a 'deal', they will find it very hard not to accept even though this opens up the flood gates for efficiencies elsewhere.

I will very very shocked if the current ballot does not give a massive majority for any future industrial action.

Now if I was the preffered bidder knowing the result of the ballot, what would I do to prevent any action from impacting on the business. Do a deal with the key employees?

I think any action that can be taken prior to PPP becoming effective is very worth while, this is why every MP within the UK has been e-mailed many times over this single issue by me.

[EarlyGo]

OrsonCart..

Do a deal with the "key" employees? And everyone else can go to hell I suppose? There was me thinking this was about safety, and maintaining a service thats already bloody good, but obviously as long as you get offered a few quid PPP can go ahead in any fashion the government wants and the British public can have a Railtrack 2. Silly me, I forgot that as long as you've got ATCOs you don't need engineers to keep your equipment serviceable, ATSAs to support you or admin to count your (hopefully for you) growing salary.

When you emailed every MP, what did you tell them? That PPP was bad, or where to send the brown envelope? I find your attitude disappointing and hope it's not reflective of most NATS ATCOs, who, lets face it, would expect everyone else to go out if they were on strike.

[WebCreator]

Despite EG's obvious disappointment, there is a reality here. If I'm speaking out of turn then I apologise but the differences between the jobs of ATCO's and "the rest" highlight the fact that there is an opportunity for any incoming partner to create a divide (assuming one doesn't already exist) and by offering a "nice deal" to ATCO's they would effectively ensure their continued (albeit reluctant) co-operation. The bigger picture here is that if that were to happen and the assistants et al get shafted, then the ATCO's too would be indirectly shafted by heavier workload, less canteen time, more working on the wings etc, whatever their reward might be. Everybody needs to speak as one here which is why there should be greater synergies between the two unions. The assistants etc are definitely more vulnerable but there's more of them. The ATCO's are in a stronger negotiating position but they can't do it alone. As someone else previously pointed out, the fight is external, not internal!

[FatherJack]

I have read all the contributions to this thread from fellow pruners, and I can see sense in just about all of them. I understand the desire to take industrial action, particularly to demonstrate objection to what is bascically a hostile takeover (if SERCO win !), but I really don't see how any type of action will dissuade the government from selling us, or SERCO from buying us. All it will achieve is to give our new partner a long list of names of 'agitators' - people who will also appear on the list of ' to be sacked'. If you think this is paranoid, you're wrong. A list of people 'likely to be anti change/PPP etc' already exists. I've seen it. In principle, I'd love to join any appropriate industrial action, but in reality I simply can't afford to. I can't afford to lose income, and I don't want to present myself as a target to our new partner. If I sound defeatist, I'm sorry, but that's reality. I have a home and family to support, and I can't do that by standing on a picket line, however much I might want to. What ever action each individual decides to take, good luck to us all.

[WebCreator]

Unfortunately that will be the reaction of many. I don't think the Government can be disuaded from selling but they can possibly be disuaded from the particlar PPP route they have chosen (there are alternatives) and they might be disuaded from selecting SERCO (there are much better alternatives). As to paranoia, that's real but if EVERY name were on the list it wouldn't be much use to anyone. As for loss of income, the effect of an ALL OUT strike would be so great that it probably wouldn't take very long! Imagine the pressure from the airlines on the Government just prior to an election! I'm being a bit idealistic perhaps but the option you put forward, although understood, means you may as well cancel your union subs, roll over and play dead.

[FatherJack]

Perhaps we're all looking at this the wrong way....will industrial action stop PPP ? No. The government has already comitted the proceeds from the sale of NATS during its last budget, so the sale must go ahead. What attracts potential partners to buy into NATS ? Profits. How do we make NATS so unattractive that no-one would want to buy us? Stop making profit... make a loss !How ? Stop handling so many aircraft. Fewer aircraft means fewer profits. So the answer lies in that most reviled of perversions (sorry FMP) - Flow Control. Reduce the sector capacities of ALL UK sectors by 50%. Perfectly justifiable on safety grounds. Start tomorrow, and by April 1st we won't see SERCO and their like for dust. Sorted.

[WebCreator]

Changing the subject slightly, I just found this in the US - a couple of SERCO ATC folk discussing why the FAA pays less for SERCO run facilities than FAA run facilities....message....less staff!

"It costs the FAA less money if we got all the pay and benefits that FAA controllers get. The reason is because we use 1/3 to 1/2 the controller workforce. So before you give up and turn negative without the facts just sit back and relax and save your negativity for something else."

[WebCreator]

Another excerpt that compares FAA with Contract ATC..parallels can of course be drawn between CAA and SERCO...

"There is also the issue of equal pay for equal work. My airport is seven miles as the crow flies from our FAA "virtual twin". The average hourly wage there is $31.35 per hour for essentially the same traffic, airspace, and equipment, with twice to three times the amount of people. All of us, as "contract controllers", work at half or less the manning levels and at essentially half to two thirds the wage. Are we not in effect, "paying" for the privilege to work in our chosen field through low pay? I propose this is unfair, unjust, and quite frankly, un-American. Don't get me wrong, I believe most FAA facilities are overmanned but how much blood should we give to keep the FAA money side up? I for one have no more to give; I was dried up long ago."

[slurp]

Well Father Jack has nailed his colours to the mast...can't believe anyone in ATC could not afford to give up one days pay for the cause..what a sad case ...when they cut your salary and time off ...how will you cope then Father Jack ?you will still have your family and kids to support plus that mortgage.What about those without a job?This is a fight for all,i agree privatisation is probably a dead duck as the Government will never change course but I feel we can persuade them to go for a deal that is politically friendly.

[WebCreator]

Looking at what SERCO have done in the US, I'd have thought that low or no pay for a few days was a better option than low pay forever.

I think everyone should take the time to look around the US serco ATCers site...it's definitely an eye opener...check the messages section but don't join, or they will block you.

http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/sercoatcers

[identnospeed]

FatherJack,

For the want of a day or two on strike, you are willing to risk the chance of SERCO getting the contract and shafting your colleagues and maybe even you (in that "cupboard" you've "been hiding in for years" - see the Bung thread).

I hope for your sake that we are successful in averting the SERCO threat. There are plenty of people who are willing to walk who are less financially secure than you.

I hope you can sleep at night when folks are on industrial action for your benefit.

INS

[Warped Factor]

slurp, identnospeed,

I heartily agree.

Much as I would not want to take action, now we're going down this road we have to carry it through. If we don't, well it's open season for whoever wins the contract.....

I'm a union member, I'll go with the majority vote, I just hope there isn't a majority of FatherJacks'

WF.

[OrsonCart]

Out of interest, my e-mails to the MP's were in an attempt to convince them to leave well alone and keep our skies safe. I have not only written to politicians.

My comments about doing a deal with key employees is exactly what I would expect to occur, that does not mean I agree with it!

Divide and destroy, that is the way of the private sector, I would like to think that all staff will stick together if industrial action looms, but somehow I doubt it.

Anyway, buy The G******* on Thursday, if the story runs, then maybe our prayers have been answered.

[This message has been edited by OrsonCart (edited 14 February 2001).]

[FatherJack]

Dear Identnospeed, I see from your profile that you are an ATCO on the LTMA. I am not. Unless you are suffering from extreme juniority, you very likely earn twice as much as I do. You are significantly more financially secure than I am. I don't begrudge you a penny ; you earn your money and I couldn't do what you do. I shall indeed sleep soundly knowing that you, and your colleagues, can afford to take the moral stand that I simply cannot. I've no intention of getting into a slanging match with you - just try to understand that we don't all enjoy your level of salary.If I did, I'd be next to you on the picket line !

[identnospeed]

FJ,

Read my post properly buddy !

Like I said there ARE people who are not as financially secure as you, and I did not mean me. I meant the people who work hard (in and out of cupboards) AND will still be out of a job post-SERCO.

I know what its like working for £8000 (eight grand) a year as I did in the early 90s. It was the only job I could get after losing my previous one at the start of the recession. So please don't jump to conclusions my friend, just cos I'm an ATCO.

INS

PS. I apologise for being a little curt, but this is a bad situation we find ourselves in, and this maybe our only chance to have an impact on ALL our futures.

[This message has been edited by identnospeed (edited 14 February 2001).]

[slurp]

FJ ...i still say no on who are employed by NATS is so poor they cannot afford one days' wages ..i am an ATSA and our jobs are on the line ..as for intimidation being a factor well you deserve what you get if SERCO take over...go sell your soul to the devil mate cos thats what you are suggesting ...i actually don t believe FJ is employed by NATS ....if you are say where?

[intentionally blank]

FJ,

OK I am kind of resigned to the fact that you are just a troll but I can't help being sucked in.

RE all your statements and arguments - are you some sort of halfwit?

"I can't aford to lose a day's pay" you claim. But seeem to accept the EVIDENCE of your colleagues that if we are bought by SERCO then pay and terms and conditions (we all know safety will go) will suffer horrific damage.

How will you pay when your kids are teenagers?
Or want to go to Uni?

As for the divisive "But you work at LTMA therefore are loaded". I don't work there I work at a regional a/d. But check the pay scale and you'll find it neeed a good 10 yrs plus of seniority to make the slightest difference between ATCO2 and 3. And if you want the money you go work there. As they say put up or shut up. To attempt to criticise someones right to hold an opinion by this means is pitiful.

We have nothing to lose by striking and everything to gain. If we do not take decisive action even at this late stage we deserve everything we get (and will live to regret it).

If you really feel this way then i suggest you resign from IPMS. They are not representing your interests (which seem to be "get for me what ever you can but I will do nothing to help").

[identnospeed]

FJ,

Having just read your inflammatory posts from last September, it looks like you are undertaking a serious backpedal.

In your last post on the - Its time to strike - thread, your parting shot was
"Roll on PPP!",
but now it is "just try to understand that we don't all enjoy your level of salary.If I did, I'd be next to you on the picket line !" A monumental U-turn.

I suggest you FuK off and sort out exactly what it is you want from NATS.


Regards INS

[OrsonCart]

So does IPMS now officially back the airline bid, or try and stop PPP totally?

[WebCreator]

I don't see much future in trying to stop PPP although there may be an opportunity to ensure the right style of PPP is selected. Supporting the airline bid could lead to the PPP partner being the one that's going to give you the least hassle - they have a direct and tangible interest in keeping the planes moving after all and they all are focused on safety if for no other reason than their own commercial pressures. The "We've killed less passengers than any other airline" is not the best marketing....

[FatherJack]

Dear Identnospeed,
I think it might be you who needs to sort him(her)self out. At 10 o'clock last night you're apologising for being curt, by 10 o'clock this morning you're telling me to 'Fuk off'! Make your mind up !
As for your opinions, and those of the aptly named Intentionally Blank, I'm sure they are perfectly valid and you have every right to hold them. But are you really so arrogant that you think you must be right, and anyone who disagrees must be wrong ? I don't feel the need to abuse you, but you seem to feel entitled to abuse me. I expect that if we do end up on strike, you'll be at the front of the picket line, shouting 'scab' and throwing bricks at anyone who dares to differ from you. This forum is not the place for personal vilification of 'colleagues', even if I felt inclined to do so, so I shan't take up any more valuable space.
Identnospeed, you are the weakest link.....goodbye.

[slurp]

FJ...so now your views differ from others ....make your mind up mate ,before you were running scared of being victimised by the new employer and the fact you lose some money ...now its your views differ from others ...What are your views????

[pakemrakemstakem]

Re Fatherjack's messages (or should that be "I'm all right Jack"!!). Is there any point you being in the union at all? I'm sure I don't want to lose a days/weeks salary either, but the point of being in a union is that you stick together. Does this mean if the majority vote to strike, you will still go into work? If so please leave the union now, because you are obviously misguided in your conception of what unions were created for.

[FatherJack]

What makes you think I'm a member of the union ? How does union membership help ? Please all of you, wake up ! There is no sentimentality in business. None of the potential PPP partners are in this to give NATS employees a warm cosy feeling. They're in it for money, plain and simple. They won't give a s**t who you are, what you do, how long you've been there or what you think. They certainly won't care if you're in the union. So what if you go on strike ? When you're cold enough and hungry enough, you'll go back to work. If you don't, they'll sack you - end of chat. Don't expect any public sympathy, and don't expect pressure on the PPP partner from the government. Remember the petrol protest ? The whole country nearly ground to a halt - no ambulances in some areas, rubbish piling up, food shortages - did the government step in ? No, the protesters gave up. The effects of the petrol protest were a lot further reaching than any ATC strike. The fact is that from a business point of view, NATS has needed a kick up the @rse for years, and now it's coming. No escaping it. If you're operational ATC, you're job's probably safe. If not,start looking. If they sack me, I'll go do something else. It's not the end of the world.In the meantime, I'm certainly not going to give them the excuse.

[slurp]

well now we know your views FJ....brown nose enough and you'll keep your job...suggest you crawl back into your cupboard and get sold when the axe comes.As a matter of fact it does matter which group get the contract ...2 of the bidders have said they will work with the unions ..one hasn't.I still don 't think FJ works for NATS,he's just trying to undermine the solidarity of the union.

[WebCreator]

If this particual thread is discussing the merits and tactics of industrial action, maybe the group should simply ignore those that don't want to play and focus on the job at hand - how to be as effective as possible with the minimum loss of time and money to participants. By the way, I think that the shut down of ATC would have a greater effect than the petrol protest had, particularly given the timing of the General Election and the Easter break. Someone (named) posted a similar comment to FJ's on the nats-ppp.com board as well...I wonder...?

[identnospeed]

FJ,

Showed your true colours at last. The rhetoric of reason has deserted you.

The search facility this morning helped me to find who you were (apology retracted). You are a sad person.

Weakest link ? terrible insult.

regards

INS

[250 kts]

Oh come on don't keep it a secret-who is this sad b*****d? At least tell us what his job is and hopefully it will be the 1st to go, cos as he says he can always go and get another.

[airfox]

F&%£ER JACK,
The Weakest Link ! you're more like the
Missing Link .What you get out of winding
folk up is anyones guess.Why dont you p*ss off and let the rest of us get on with the very serious issues at hand.

[PPRuNe Radar]

Folks,

Please note that there are two Father Jacks on PPRuNe. One is Father Jack who is known to me and a decent guy. The other is the FatherJack who appears on this thread and is not personally known to me. Note the different spellings in case you get the two people mixed up ;)

To the FatherJack on this thread. If you read most of the studies and literature on companies which are deemed by academic and business institutions to be the worlds most 'successful', you will find that they place a high value on treating their staff properly and count them as their greatest asset. They work them hard, but they also reward them and look after them. Yet your point seems to be that this is something which should not happen to NATS post PPP, to give it a kick up the backside as you put it, and screw the staff. Guess that means SERCO are not cut out to be one of the worlds top successful companies then, so why should we let them make a mess of UK ATC ??

The important thing here is that most people are prepared to make a stand, not to protect their cushy number (which is disappearing in any case because NATS actually is becoming more efficient, ask the guys at the airfields), but to protect the UK aviation industry from becoming like Railtrack. Part of that protection is the terms and conditions of the staff as well as appropriate staff and support levels to allow the continuing development of the service (capacity, controller tools, etc) and its safety measures and performance (engineering support, ATM developments and projects), both of which go some way to ensuring that safety always always comes first in everything NATS does. Strip all that out and you have a bottom line mentality, where safety is often too expensive. Where staff become divided and marginalised. Where morale and performance suffer. Where people don't go the extra mile to make things happen. See any Railtrack parallels yet ??

All that might work for refuse collection 'management' and other SERCO specialities, but for UK ATC ?? I don't think so.

For the loss of a days pay here and there I think the prize is worth the cost. I am sure that for many others, the sacrifice is also one they are willing to make. Because not only are they trying to safeguard their own future and that of their colleagues, they are trying to prevent the well respected UK ATC business from slipping into an abyss.

However, fellow PPRuNers, FatherJack is entitled to make his point and I will defend his right to do so. Well argued counter points are what this thread needs, regardless of the side of the fence, and no degeneration into name calling or schoolyard antics are needed here. Otherwise, offenders will be forced to have access only to Oz 89' threads :)

------------------
PPRuNe Radar
ATC Forum Moderator
[email protected]

[FatherJack]

Thankyou all for your valuable comments. I have enjoyed reading ALL your posts, and wish each of you well in the future. I hope that whatever actions you may decide to take work for you, and that mine work for me. I still feel that some of you have a painful awakwening to come, and that pinning your hopes on industrial action may prove to be horribly optimistic. However, it is your right to take whatever action you see fit.
Thanks also to the moderator - I was beginning to think that free speech was not encouraged on this forum. I don't think there is anything else I can say that will make the slightest impact on this debate, so it is unlikely that you will hear from me again.
For those of you who still doubt it, I AM an employee of NATS, and have been for more than 10 years. Maybe I differ in opinion from other contributors to this forum, maybe I get up your noses. One thing I do know - there are many more who share my views. We should learn to live with each other without resorting to senseless name calling. I respect your opinions, the least you can do is tolerate mine.

[eyeinthesky]

Glad to see that the slanging match has been brought to an end..

I used to work in the private sector and was initially worried about the prospect of unionised negotiations, since I have always considered strike action to be an instant deadlock situation. 6 years into NATS, however, and I am sad to say that it seems that the only language they understand is of the deadlock variety. I will therefore be out on the picket line if necessary, but would hope that the 'intelligent' people who run our business and the country will come to their senses before this happens. It is of course vital that our union ensure that they as, let's face it, amateur negotiators are not steamrollered by the professional ones.

As for those who are so short-termist as to say they cannot afford to lose a few days' pay or any perceived benefits they may currently enjoy to go on strike, they should be prepared to take a little short-term pain for long-term gain. Our future under SERCO would certainly be short on benefits..

'Railtrack of the skies' is not so far fetched as it may sound. Imagine the scenario where someone comes up with a whizz-bang system for reducing the number of airpoxes. It costs £x million, however. The privatised, cost-cutting NATS might establish that it will still only prevent 50% of the airproxes that presently occur. "Too expensive, and anyway nothing has hit yet" they might say. Trouble is, the next 'airmiss' won't be a miss...
In addition, can you foresee a situation where, like the railways, the ATC provider faces penalties from the government or airlines for causing delays? I can, and look what happened at Hatfield as Railtrack couldn't/wouldn't restrict trains so they could carry out maintenance for fear of financial penalties.

Sorry to go on, I'm probably preaching to the converted anyway.. I'll start making my placard right away.


"Take off is optional, Landing is mandatory" :)

[FatherJack]

Well this is strange, isn't it ? I stop contributing opinions you don't like, and suddenly none of you bother to add anything further ! Could it be that you only bother to read these posts in case you can find someone to have a row with ?

[Bright-Ling]

FJ,

Oh of course.....how do we all survive without you!

No surprise that your first post for a while sees you baiting people again.

Arse!!!

[slurp]

FJ...its because everyone except you are of the same opinion...that SERCO would be a bad thing...and as you seem to have no opinion..you only seem happy to bait people...i suggest you return to TC and work as you wish

[WonkyVectors]

Going back to the original question that started this thread (anyone remember it?) I add my electronic hand to confirm that I will strike should it come to it.

To fj and others who may think likewise, i believed that financially i couldn't afford to stike (i also have a young family, bills comming out of my ears etc), however i now understand that i can't afford not to. I enjoy my job, and look forward to doing it, but how will everyones performance be affected when we don't have sufficient days off to recouperate, when we have to do atsa duties in our breaks, when we have to phone the local tv repairman to come and fix some piece of kit, when we're all told to continue working with kit that isn't safe but its not 'cost effective' to replace, when... well I guess you get my point. All the above and many more will affect safety and that is, of course, what this is about.

Fj, If I understand you correctly, you are against any strike action, so what can we do?I know that striking will probably not solve all our problems, hell it may even bring new ones, but what alternative do you suggest? Do you think we should bend over and take it or do you accept that we have to make a stand for those poor buggers in the air? When some berieved (how is that spelt?!) family take Serco or whoever to court coz the two whizz jets slapped each other over the british countryside, do you think serco will say 'sorry chaps, maybe we should have paid for that piece of kit and maybe we shouldn't have got the controller to do all those jobs done by all those people what we fired' or is it more likely they'll say 'Controller error guv, hang the @st@rd!' At many places already the mantra 'sorry not in the budget mate' is being heard, how bad do you want it to get before you say enough is enough? Why not do something now, before the smellies hit the fan?

Assuming fj is a lone voice, then there are things we need to be doing in the run up to a possible strike. We need to communicate with the public to get them in the picture of what will happen if this farce continues. We need to explain to them now that yes their holidays, buisiness meetings etc may be disrupted soon, but if we don't then next years holiday may be a game of Russian Roulette. We cannot do our job to the best of our abilities - which is often what it takes - without the aid of the assistants, engineers and the myriad of other staff and equipment in the background. I would suggest newspaper advertisments, Tv interviews etc. not in a drastic, scaremongering way but an honest forthright way to explain what, why and when. We need to explain that we cannot operate a safe system when money will actually be taken out of the company to pay shareholders and fat cat Board members. Many of my friends who have no idea of the aviation industry have said things like 'yeah but they won't get rid of the controllers tho, they wouldn't be that daft,would they, so it'll still be okay won't it? And it can't be another railtrack of the skies coz you've got no tracks to break, and if there are too many aircraft up there can't you just send them somewhere else or get someone else in to speak to them? and you must have back up systems if anything breaks, don't you? huh? don't you??!'.

May we all be able to continue to enjoy our work and be able to sleep at night.

[slurp]

wonky vectors...nicely put...i for one have contacted two national papers and sent an e mail to some friends in the city etc who will pass it on ...hopefully we will get the message through...one assistant has sent letters to every newspaper,the PM ,Hague,twojags ...etc ..its up to everybody to spread the word in any way they choose.

[FatherJack]

Wonkyvectors,
I hadn't intended to contribute further to this thread, however there is more to say - I must be a glutton for punishment. You're quite right, I am against strike action, and if necessary I will cross a picket line. Since I am not a member of the union (I was, but that's another story), I'd have no choice anyway. And, no, I'm not considering rejoining. I agree entirely with your sentiments, I just don't think anything as confrontational as strike action is going to work. I also don't think negotiation is going to cut much ice, especially not with the likes of SERCO. There must be more covert methods of achieving the same ends....What would happen if there was a major power outage at LATCC ? Or almost every CLN valid ATCO went sick on the same day (as I believe did happen recently)? Or HCS flopped long-term ? Do you catch my drift ?
And I still don't know where N412 is !

[WonkyVectors]

Fj, Thanks for your reply. I understand and respect your beliefs and i honestly hope that if you or anyone else feel you have to cross any picket then your relationship with your colleagues is not affected. I for one do not believe in forcing my opinions and actions on others.

I don't know whether strike action will work, or even what effect it may have but i have a worry concerning any 'covert' actions - yes i get your drift! The worry is if any covert actions are taken then one of the results will be increased perception by the public of more and more delays and problems in the air traffic system. Surely this will only serve to give two-jags and his mates more ammunition, he can simply say to the world; "See look how close to break-down the system is now, and that is why we are selling the buggers off for whatever we can get!" Isn't it better that we continue to provide the safest, best and most proffesional service we can and so deprive two-jags of any advantage?

As i said above i don't wish to force my opinions on anyone but surely it is better to be open and honest about our actions than playing a possibly dangerous game of covert silly buggers?

[Warped Factor]

Fatherjack,

I honestly cannot believe what you are just suggesting........

Your various posts on here just don't add up to those of a normal, rational person http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/confused.gif

WF.

[niteflite01]

One thing I would like to add at this point is this:

I would rather miss a couple of days pay as a result of strike action than my employment be terminated full stop.

Link to that the fact that SERCO have openly stated that they will not promise to honour the current redundancy and employment termination procedures for existing staff - never mind new employees. Where would that leave us all? Re-applying for our own jobs (especially ATSA;s)? Or without pay full stop?

And please let's not forget the main and most important issue here - safety. We wouldn't (or certainly I wouldn't) be striking for simply myself and my family and my colleagues. I'd be out to protect (or at least attempt to protect) the lives of everyone who flies in or over or resides underneath aircraft that fly in, or over, UK airspace.

For me a few days pay or whatever is quite literally worthless in comparison.

As someone else has said I'm not forcing my views and political ideals on anyone else and I understand fully the arguments against action of this type.

Personally I just think lives are more important than a days pay.

But what do I know? ;)


------------------
"Go around..I say again...go around"

[Puddleglum]

By threatening industrial action are we trying to protect jobs or to protect UK ATC as we know it? For myself it is both of these.

Who are we striking against?
We need to be prepared for the worst, but until the Government announce the successful bidder we cannot predict how bad the cuts will be. All of the candidates will be aiming to maximise profits. ATSAs, engineers and support staff are all vulnerable, which will in turn affect the whole industry.

If SERCO are successful will they keep 2 colleges of ATC in the UK? If not it is likely to reduce the number of new ATCOs available in an industry which is already short of staff.

What of ATMDC who provide an essential service to NATS testing new ATC environments.

SERCO is being painted as the Big Bad Wolf, but are the other candidates ultimately going to make better employers?

NATS as we know it is worth fighting for even if it does mean forfeiting our income for a few days.

[niteflite01]

I also realised something whilst sitting in the rest room today (as you do!). I think someone has already said this here but........

How clever are the government?

At the first mention of PPP we all had absolute nightmares and rightly so. "No Way" we all jeered and half-pleaded.

Then, a bit further along the line, big bad SERCO arrived on the scene and we had a new outlet for our fears and out anger.

I fear that, somehwere amidst all of this admittedly justified SERCO bashing, we have all, deep down, accepted that we cannot do a *single thing* to stop PPP going ahead. Much to the governments pleasure I hasten to add.

I don't believe that needed to have been the case but, alas, I fear it is too late.

So - are we striking against SERCO's involvement or are we striking to protest about PPP in general?

It seems now that some of my colleagues are throwing their worried arms around the airline groups bid - understandably so. After all, they are the glowing not-for-profiteers and to be truthful, the only mob who appear to have any trace of (dare I say it) honour with reagrd to employee relations and a real and genuine concern with safety.

I too am starting to think "yeah....they don't sound half bad and if we're going to have anyone...."

Who'd have thought we'd think like that all those yonks ago when PPP was first mooted? SO - why ARE we all threatening to strike now?

------------------
"Go around..I say again...go around"

[Mr Chips]

Just a thought....come the day of the announcement, Two jags stands up, says "All three bidders are pants, we're delaying". General Election comes and goes without a strike....

Possible?

Father Jack - I was just wondering if you were anywhere near the training section (N412 is the big office) as you know so much about APS training. just curious.

Chips

[slurp]

i can't believe what FJ is suggesting ...a criminal act ...sabotage...no mate a picket line is as far as i will go

[Late Downwind]

What FJ is suggesting is:

a) Very dodgy

and

b) exactly why we have Unions in the first place!

Every CLN valid ATCO going sick - hmmm - grounds for management to investigate and interview everyone who did go sick and take severe action if they were telling fibs!

A mysterious major power outage - again, somebody’s going to be sacked for gross misconduct!

A long term HCS FLOP - see above!

One of the reasons that we have Unions is to LEGITIMATELY (and LEGALLY) be able to represent the concerns of the Union membership because the Union Officers have a mandate from their members to negotiate and, if necessary, enter into industrial disputes with management.

Covert stuff just won’t work. There would be no definable consensus, no legal backing and ultimately individuals would be for the high jump, with no support from any accountable source.

FJ look up union in the dictionary - see what it says!

[AyrTC]

Sorry to go harping back to 1981,
First of all there should be No intimidation from either Union or management side (there was then).
In 1981 when people went through the picket line(for their own valid reasons)they ended up "doing" sectors they were not valid on http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif
The FIR was very busy with "big jets" leaving the various zones and requesting airways join or handover to ScotMil.This could be quite overwhelming for an ATCO IV at the time.
I also believe that at LATCC an ATCO had an incident at FAWLEY while trying to help the airlines and NATS management did not help him at all in the investigation.Basically if there is a strike and you go into work do not expect thanks or help from anybody!
AyrTC

[get'em to heaven & back]

mr chips, yes, posible- some would say unlikely, though, unless the votes have already been counted in favour of a strike.

we await with interest......

[WebCreator]

New poll on nats-ppp.com...Will You Strike?

Please let me know if the possible answers should be altered to reflect current thinking and if you like the format try and get as many as you can to vote. Up to 5 votes per IP address, multiple answer selections possible.

[Puddleglum]

Mr Chips

Good point. The Spin Doctors are probably working on the speech now.

[downto5]

Story in Times today.

[url http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2-88757,00.html]

No preferred bidder? Now is the time to step up the pressure and make sure we are not privitised. The union meetings here at Scottish were firmly behind a strike. We should use this feeling now!



------------------
You're Identified

[Spoonbill]

Cmmon guys!
If you're going to do something, get organised and get on with it!
It's obviously the only way you're going to get your case heard by the general public, since the politicians are clearly dragging their feet.
One way or the other, PPP is going to happen, so perhaps it's best you 'persuaded'
the Government of the right path to tread. (

[WebCreator]

Vote on "Will you strike?"....www.nats-ppp.com, results so far.....

If ATSA's do 0.00%
If IPMS recommends it 10.00%
If PCS recommends it 5.00%
We should strike anyway 70.00%
Definitely not 5.00%
Not sure 0.00%
I'll go with the flow 0.00%
I'm Non-NATS, Strike away! 10.00%

[terrain safe]

I think Niteflite01 has a very good point. Why are we talking of a strike?

Is it to protest against Serco or PPP or both?

I don't particuarily want anyone to take over NATS in the present format. It seems to me that when the PPP thing was first to be applied to NATS it was a case of 'here's the answer, now what's the best way to make the question fit this' and we were well and truly fitted up.

I am 100% behind a strike, can't afford it, can't afford not to. Love the job and I have done for the past 15 years but the loss of the safety critical ethos (generally) to a 'show me the money' environment (allegedly) has me having real fears for the safety of the general public, which is after all, what we care about.

Sorry if this is a bit late in the conversation but I feel that we all have to stick together.

Cheers
http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/confused.gif

[slurp]

the problem with having a straight strike ballot is the fact that we have no dispute with our employers ..i e Nats....it would be against the law to take industrial action .

[Der SimMeister]

The Government own NATS (for now) and therefore ultimately are our employers.. and we *do* have a dispute with them.
Or does the law as it stands not recognise that?

[identnospeed]

Slurp,

[slurp]

yes ident.?

[WebCreator]

I don't think the unions would be balloting if there were no case to answer, they know the laws on industrial action (tight as they are these days).

[slurp]

as far as i know ...the unions are asking NATS to condemn the sale of ATC on safety grounds ...of course NATS won't so we have a dispute ..:-))))...the ballot is only a consultative ballot and if we get an overwhelming vote in favour this will be put to the management and the Government,any further ballot for industrial action will based on safety issues.I think if you look at the Underground PPP issue they too ,asked their management to condemn PPP on safety grounds.

[identnospeed]

Slurp,

finger trouble the first time !

The contrivance of a dispute is something that is/has been worked on behind the scenes. It will be based on the safety issue and legal advice is being/has been sought.

cheers

INS

[squawk 6789]

can i, in a very paranoid manner, urge caution when discussing any details (founded or not) of any dispute/ industrial action?

[daft fader]

Squawk 6789:

You`re not paranoid at all, they really are out to get us this time.

[HarryBucket]

ppp seems inevitable. The gov. wants it done and dusted by 1 april. will we actually gain anything by striking in summer, 3 or 4 months after we're private? The decision won't be overturned, the public will have forgotten the reasons behind the strike and will resent us for ruining their holiday.

Is it not time to accept privitisation and, although not welcome it with open arms, prepare ourselves for the changes (good or bad) it will bring?

at least SERCO's bid seems to be losing favour. If the Union and ATCO's work closer with the gov. maybe we can have more influence over the partner.

[controller friendly]

HB
No,no,no,no,PPP is not done yet.
Even if we are only putting out a soundbite to what we are actually prepared to do to protect our terms & conditions if it does go ahead,we have to do something!
Safety is our big priority obviously,if we can scare SERCO off by industrial action then all the better.
It's all about how strongly we feel about the future of aviation in the U.K.It could all become so frightening!!!
Support the unions!

[slurp]

agrees with squawk...and agrees with others that to just accept PPP is a total no-no...stand up until we get a decent deal one way or other

[HarryBucket]

Controller friendly,

seem to have put my head up over the parapet.....and got shot at, trying to create a talking point.

I am not pro or anti ppp, middle of the road. I still need convincing either way especially with the voting on strike action looming. I know contollers at non state units and have visited their work places and they seem to be just as competant and safe as NATS units. Is it not doing our colleagues in the private sector a disservice by stating that safety will go out of the window if we privatise. After speaking to friends of mine who are not in ATC about this issue, their main concern is safety but they were all unaware that there was any private ATC in the UK.

In an industry where safety is paramount to "survival" of the company, can a private sector partner really afford to ignore it. Would SRG allow them to. SRG are a very powerful safety net and maybe if the rail industry had the benefit of a similar organistion, the tragic accidents that we have seen, would never have happened. Or did these accidents occur as a result of many years of under investment whilst in the Public sector?????

Convince me one way or another, get rid of my doubt......please!!!!

[slurp]

harry...with regard to the possible lack of investment in the Railways whilst under public control....surely that was why Railtrack were formed ...to put investment into the railways not to line the pockets of shareholders....maybe if the money paid out in dividends had been spent on the rails ,Hatfield may not have happened.As regards to private companies running ATC units ...could you please put a list up of the major 24hr units they run?

[Shazbat]

Hi Harry Bucket

A quick note about your faith in SRG.

Just an opinion here, but to me they seem to roll over and have their communual belly tickled whenever NATS shouts at them......AND......I believe them to be quite understaffed even now.

So goodness knows how they'll cope trying to "police" a privatised NATS !

Sorrry it's a TAD off-topic guys, but I have my doubts about the ability of SRG to be a safety net.

As for striking....if anyone even LOOOOOOOKS at my pension and I'll be out on the gate (as I was back in the early 80';s)

[RogerOut]

See todays "Scotland on Sunday" link below
http://www.scotlandonsunday.com/News.cfm?id=SS01006078&feed=N

------------------
RogerOut
I Keep Mine Hidden

[OrsonCart]

Top Officials Back Splitting Off US Air Traffic Control

Eight former top-ranking aviation and transportation officials, including three former administrators of the Federal Aviation Administration, said in a letter released Friday that the agency would never be able to cope with growing air traffic control problems and that the federal government should give the job to an independent nonprofit corporation.

"Attempted reforms of F.A.A.'s personnel and procurement systems have failed to materially change the agency's organizational culture, which is necessarily bureaucratic, risk-averse and not sufficiently customer-focused," said the officials, who served under the last four presidents. They said in the letter that safety would improve if the air traffic controllers and the safety regulators were in separate agencies.

One of the officials, Alfred E. Kahn, an economist put in charge of the Civil Aeronautics Board by President Jimmy Carter to deregulate the airline system, said deregulation had increased air traffic and created a demand for more infrastructure, including air traffic control. One way for government to respond, Mr. Kahn said, was to get out of the way.

Another of the former officials, Jim Burnley, who had oversight of the agency as transportation secretary under President Ronald Reagan, said that if nothing was done, the delays of last summer would "seem like the good old days. “The Reason study, by Robert W. Poole Jr. and Viggo Butler,
called for a government-owned corporation with a board of directors representing the interests of airlines, general aviation, air traffic employees, airports and others, with the ability to borrow money from the private capital market, and to charge fees to users to support it.

John S. Carr, the president of the National Air Traffic Controllers Association, said the problem was not in the agency's structure, but in the airports. "One new runway at each of the 25 busiest airports in the nation would do more for this country's aviation needs than 20 years' worth of Mr. Poole's reports ever will," Mr. Carr said.

Norman Y. Mineta, the transportation secretary, said in his confirmation hearing last month that he favored greater separation of the agency's functions in providing air traffic control and regulating the controllers. Bill Mosely, a spokesman for the department, said Mr. Mineta favored establishing air traffic control as a separate "corporation" within the agency.

The study is available online.

[Postman Pat]

That's a great post OrsonCart. If the paragon of free enterprise called the good old U S of A doesn't do it then what on earth does Two Jags think he is doing?

Shazbat

I'm with you all the way buddy. SRG are more interested in auditing LATCC than they are in real safety work like preventing overloads. Take a look at Swanwick (or don't - you might end up frightened)

As for my pension. SERCO - DO NOT EVEN THINK ABOUT IT.

PP

[HarryBucket]

Shazbat,

if your views on SRG are correct then surely that is a concern for air traffic and the public, give SRG more powers and actively recruit.

Recruitment also seems a problem within NATS. I understand that this year NATS are employing people from overseas, "Maastricht rejects", as they are desperatly short of controllers and are having trouble recruiting. I don't know about you guys but I have only ever seen one advert for contollers. Is it any wonder they don't get enough applicants. Can't understand it myself, who wouldn't want a job that pays very well, has a great pension, loads of time off and very good perks. Does this mean that "other departments" within NATS itself aren't giving the operational controllers the support they should do. Would this improve with PPP?

I echo your concerns over SERCO, lets just all get on our knees and pray to the god of Air Traffic, that they are unsuccessful.
:)

[niteflite01]

It does initially "appear" that SERCO's bid is now being frowned upon big time by the powers that be. That can only be good news can't it - but I shall only believe it when I actually see it.

Who knows what factors are at work here and which information and mis-information is being spread by whom and with what agenda.

Having worked for some considerable time in the media myself I believe we should be *very* careful about what we believe from the stuff printed in the 'papers. This applies to quoted and supposedly official statements also. Until I am informed of anything "official" by my Union or my WM or whoever - I shall believe nothing. This, regardless of how supposedly high brow said newspaper or company is and what size paper it prints on or how much their licence fee is.

I also really think we should be *very very very* careful on what we say on these hallowed pages with regards to PPP. I can't stress this enough.

I'm not sure about anyone else but I have been contacted by three different media organisations (one a very big organisation and by a very very well knwon reporter) asking for anonymous interviews etc etc - all as a direct result of what I have said in this topic and in connected others.

I must stress at this point that I declined each offer but am partially thankful that my humble opinions are being sought by such high powered media types.

Media types who, at the end of the day, *really* only want to sell papers, bring in advertisers or justify their own, inexplicably high licence fee which pays their wages.

I am therefore sure that should said media types sense that public opinions are slowly swaying against industrial action or in favour of PPP then we will all be labelled as "greedy", "lazy" or "bigheaded and self-important". At the monent they seem to be on "our side" and seem to understand the main issues - that may not always be the case.

Copies of this topic and similar ones have also found their way onto the desks of the big-wigs in the government and indeed, in NATS itself - of that I am sure.

I also know for a fact that the unions use materials posted on this site in their literature, handouts and notices which, as far as I'm concerned is fine.

I was quite amused only last week to be passed an official notice from my union rep which consisted of a printout of a topic from this site in which I had participated. It was strange to see my own post used in a semi-official capacity :)

I'll be asking for royalties next http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif

I don't believe at this stage we should be worried too much about pensions and certainly *not* do the worrying in the public domain - not yet anyhow (for that is what this site is). Let's wait and see who we end up with before. At leasdt we are all sure where SERCO stand on this issue and for that reason they *have* to be the bad guys. I totally agree with that.

As I have said before though, I'm absolutely sure we all totally agree that the main issue is one of SAFETY and that *must* remain to be so.

Otherwise I fear the tide will turn mightily quickly in the corridors of power. With the help of the media too of course.

I feel we have the government seriously worried at this stage and on the ropes (as far as SERCO go anyhow). Lets all stick together, get our ideologies straight and agreed and hopefully, we shall have a voice in this supposed democracy after all.

Also, can anyone else who has been contacted by the media let me know somehow. Whether on here - or please feel free to mail me privately. I am intrigued by their tactics ;)

------------------
"Go around..I say again...go around"

[This message has been edited by niteflite01 (edited 25 February 2001).]

[controller friendly]

HB
I didn't mean to frighten you but I feel wery strongly on this topic.
I have also worked outside NATS & things were definately allowed to slide that does not happen within NATS.
Yes there are alot of people out there who are happy working for other companies but how many of them work for SERCO.What happens when SERCO split us up into individual companies,it'll begin with centres against airfields & then each airfield will become separate & even each centre.How do we stand together then to ensure we are getting the best equipment for the top quality service that we now provide.
Think about this long & hard,it's not just about the next 18 months but the next 30 years.

[slurp]

niteflite ...a very good post ..thank you....harry ...just read about the well paid ,good hours ,perks etc working as a controller ...ummm ...methinks this might be about to change...

[RogerOut]

Harry Bucket you included "pays very well, great pension, loads of time off and very good perks" in your post. Thats your opinion and you're entitled to it - I disagree. I don't think NATS atcos are paid "very well", we have a good pension, not a "great" one, it will reach greatness if and when I can retire at 50 with just reward. I've been through loads of time off before, but if you're unhappy we'll scrap that and see how long before some fatigued controller makes an "oh dear" into a worldwide headline.
I earn my wages/pension/time off - end of story.



------------------
RogerOut
I Keep Mine Hidden

[WebCreator]

The external view (generally) is that ATCO's are in a very responsible, highly stressful and important position where they are rewarded for keeping the "Oh Dears" to as near to zero as possible. I don't think the average Joe has any idea about pay, leave, pensions or anything else and that's exactly the way it should be, the same as any other profession. I think you should use terms such as "appropriate" and "reflective of responsibility etc" rather than excellent in these forums in case anyone were to get the wrong idea.

[darkangel]

CRATCOH: CAP670 Part D, para. B.3.2 :
"Providers are not normally to require controllers to carry out ancillary tasks while they are provideing operational ATC services."
One regional airport (not SERCO) recently started trying to use its ATCOs to cover ATSA duties(in their breaks). It did this in accordance with the results of a review carried out by a team of independent experts = two NATS SMGs, both from NATS units with a history of reducing support staff. NATS is not exactly squeaky clean in this respect itself...

[HarryBucket]

I take your point about pay, when looked at against the wages of pilots, but in comparison to the wages the majority of people get it is pretty good.

With respect to controllers being over worked and the cases of "oh dears" increasing, that is a major concern. My opinions on the "package" we recieve were expressed in relation to the average wage and yet our inability to atract applicants. Whats going on??? How can this be solved, because until it is the pressure on existing controllers will increase. Let's just hope we don't have to have a major incident to kick start the recruitment drive.

[OrsonCart]

Great, at last some solid debate!

When I first joined ATC, salaries of ATCO's were linked directly with first officer (ATCO's training and newly qualified) and captains (ATCO's with 5 years +).

So what is the problem, salaries can only increase due to supply and demand. We supply and the demand sometimes has to be flowed.

The post about EHBK ATCO's cannot be true, for NATS recently acquired a unit and controllers there with a radar rating have been left to fester within the VCR. No chance of a radar unit and no chance of an area course. Therefore no shortage of radar rated controllers within NATS?

Now if those folk at this unit read this, they will be really *issed off!

[Postman Pat]

OrsonCart,

When did you join and what organisation? In my time (considerably more than a quarter of a century) in NATS our salaries have never been linked to those of pilots. We were civil servants and then NATS hid behind the "public sector" argument for years.

It would seem that we are very much the poor people of Europe in ATC salary terms. Take a look at Spain, France, Portugal, Switzerland etc etc. This should be about supply and demand. Let me suggest for a mad moment that we are short of suitable ATCO's for training in AC. (I know it isn't true because NATS management tell me I'm wrong - but let's pretend) Question. How much do we have to pay suitably experienced controllers from all the other centres in the EC to come and work at LA&TCC?

Suggestions (from anybody) on a postcard to CC please. Or maybe you could post them here.

PP

[get'em to heaven & back]

"One regional airport (not SERCO) recently started trying to use its ATCOs to cover ATSA duties(in their breaks). It did this in accordance with the results of a review carried out by a team of independent experts = two NATS SMGs, both from NATS units with a history of reducing support staff".

Darkangel, care to name (or at least give veiled clues not interpretable by those not in the know) as to either the unit(s) concerned or the SMGs involved? e.g nationaltiy, area SECTOR which serves it, I don't know, something vague yet helpful?

p.s. did they succed in getting the ATCOs to do the work?

[Mr Chips]

So you CAN make ATCOs do ATSA duties in their breaks? Thats how I read the CRATCOH that was posted. Guess I'm off down the job centre then

[Bright-Ling]

Chips - don't be so down.

We will always need people to teach!!!!

[HarryBucket]

Why is it that certain members of NATS, whether controllers or back room staff, seem dedicated to the abolition of the ATSA role?

Although I do not have a vast wealth of experience within ATC, I have come to view my ATSA's as an essential component to my watch. I do not look forward to the day when I do not have these dedicated professionals by my side. Any controller who thinks that ASTA's are redundant and do a job that contollers are quite capable of performing along side their existing duties, are sorely mistaken.

"There's no I in team", let's not look for reasons to remove posts. Next time it could be you!

[Bright-Ling]

Only a joke dude.

Said as Mr C trained ME recently (nice chap).

Sorry if it offended - not the intention. Anyone who has done the wings will know your work is hard and very much appreciated.

Come with me.....to the chill out room.

[WebCreator]

Update from yesterday's press...

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/dynamic/news/top_story.html?in_review_id=366412&in_review_text_id=312036

[Mr Chips]

Thanks Bright - Ling!!!!!

I don't think that anyone thinks ATSAs are not needed....except SERCO that is.

[off watch]

Get 'em to heaven
If I told you who the 2 SMG's were, what would you do with the information ?

[HarryBucket]

Bright-ling

None taken matey, (am not an ATSA just know a few).

Mr.Chips, sorry to inform you that whilst most of the controllers and ATSA's (funnily enough) do see the benefit of ATSA's there is a unit within NATS that is trying to make a case for the withdrawl of this most vital position.

The challenge for us is not only to fight against the outside forces who wish to undermine the team spirit within NATS but also from the destructive groups within our own company who are to full of their own self importance to acknowledge the important role played by ATSA's.

[WebCreator]

Harry,

Just a thought...sure there's always politics etc in any organisation but I don't think it's a good idea at this juncture to blow it up out of proportion given that this forum is open to all - you wouldn't want anyone to get the wrong idea!

[Mr Chips]

Harry - are we talking about a unit down on the sunny south coast, or a different one?

[HarryBucket]

Mr Chips

Can't be two units, surely, with the same horrible view. One I was refering to has a small sea between it and the mainland, across from Scotland.

hope rumours aren't true.

[get'em to heaven & back]

"Get 'em to heaven
If I told you who the 2 SMG's were, what would you do with the information ?

off watch, if you were to tell me/ us-
i would smile smugly, because i'd be amazed if i didn't know at least one or them;
i'd be happy that others knew who you were refering to;
i'd be happy for harry that he knows what he's talking about;
i would be sad that mr chips and, presumably, others think that serco might be the only enemies when it comes to reducing support staff and consequently increasing atco responsibilities.

now, which unit has a small sea between them & scotland?
do they have one of these two smg people?
am i getting warmer, off watch?

[off watch]

get em to heaven
Fair enough !
Can't be sure they are the same guys you're referring to but R.Thompson & P.Loudon were the gents that visited our unit on a fact finding mission .........

[get'em to heaven & back]

only one of these is from a unit, the other is from airport services. wonder who the other "unit" bod is? (see darkangel's post on p10.)

[niteflite01]

Has anyone else noticed how little coverage this is all getting in the media - in part due to foot and mouth.

I don't see much info forthcoming from the unions at the mo either - anyone any ideas what *exactly* is going on right now??

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"Go around..I say again...go around"