Quality of ATC in different contrys?

[AIRLIFT]

As a charter pilot I have flown on both sides of the pound and was wandering why is it so hard for the Toronto ATC to do the job as good as in Manchester or Gatwick. It realy gets to me to be holding 50 nm from the airport on a clear day. :mad:

How is it that In the UK or even places in the US of A like FLL for instence that they are able to handle more traffic in a smaler airspace with better facility. I know that rules of seperation are different on both sides of the atlantic. But is it too much to ask to revise those rules so it would be better for every body.

Your comments are welcomed..... :)

[yakkity]

Airlift , maybe one reason could be that Toronto handles a helluva lot more traffic than either of the other places.
When you say standard, what exactly do you mean.Have you had more incidents to the west of the pond than to the East and What I would like to know is what difference the clear sky makes???

[LoLevel]

Why does an apple taste different to an Orange?? They are both a round piece of fruit arent they?

That is what you are trying to compare after all charter pilot. Consider some of the possible variables:

traffic density, mix of acft types (wake turb, closing speeds), effect of terrain and subsequent distances for IAF, distance between parallel runways (SIMOPS,IVA,etc.), high speed exits?(extra spacing needed), full length taxiiways? Military airspace?,airlines schedules (dont get me going on that gem (airport FULL -- airport EMPTY,airport FULL -- airport EMPTY), the lsits and reasons are endless.

As for can we make the procedures the same? Man I widh we could do that just in one city or one country let alone inthe whole world. ICAO is supposed to do that, it has the same rate of change as every other part of the UN.

One important piece of info for you: ATC people like Pilots get satisfaction out of doing a job with maximumefficiency and least fuss -- they do not set oout to screw you around just like you dont set out to throw down the gear at a hi speed or throw out the speed brakes, make lots of noise in the cabin and scare the punters....remember, ATC don't delay aircraft : other aircraft delay aircraft.

------------------
[email protected]
"The views expressed here are a personal rant and rave and in no way reflect the views of my employer/s, not even by coincidence I should imagine "

[Proceed As Cleared]

You're absolutey right, LoLevel.
I just would like to add a few things:

There's lots of limiting factors, tfc amount being just one of them:
Noise abatement procedures (for mainly political reasons)

Lack of civil airspace (meaning too much airspace being used by air force)

Unnessecary requests increasing complexity and limiting capacity (prime example: Lufthansa pilots asking for level change due "light turbulence"!)

Unnecessary messages like:"approaching FL..., maintaining FL..." (thank you very much, but we are radar equipped)


I can only speak for Europe, but it wouldn't be much different in Canada or USA:

The tfc amount is more and more sheer madness, despite of slot allocation.
AIRLIFT, get yourself an idea about the coherences and visit an ATC unit.
It will open your eyes!

[AIRLIFT]

Ok I understand What you guys say and I didn't mean to offend anyone. I have never had service short of fantastic trought out Europe or the USA in general.

Yakkity, about clear skys, I meant that in bad Wx, I can understand that delays are greater. People having more trouble wirth visibility or overshouting the runway may hapen more frequently. It's just that clear Wx should be easyer. Again I realy should go visit them in Toronto and get my answers..

As for low level sorry if I got you started but my quetion was legitimate. In Europe you handel to my observation alot more trafic on a single runway then in any airport in Canada. I also realise that seperation is defferent on both sides ( so I have been told)3nm vs 5nm over here. Like you said maybe they could better answer me.

Toronto is also the only place I know that ATC will have you slow down then in the next sector they will say increace the speed then in the next one it's back on the speed breaks again. I don't know what you think of that but it looks pretty bad on the reciving end of that. Again this never happened to me in Europe or the USA. Maybe some of you out there could help the guys over here :) :) :).

The last point I wanted to make is: If things go so well in so many busy places out there (Gatwick, Miami, Paris, Frankfurt just to name a few) Why is it that in Toronto they could not have look and take some examples. Even if it means to change some arrival procedures or like you say eliminat some non-essential verbal procedures. Cause over here they want you to report level.

Tanks for the info.... :)

[Bright-Ling]

I would like to point out that the perceived standard provided by NAVCANADA as a PRIVATE company should in NO WAY be connected with the UK fears over NATS future privatisation!!!!!!!

Thankyou and goodnight.

[Proceed As Cleared]

Dearest Bright-Ling,

Pointing out that ATC service provided by ATCOs of privatised companies is generally worse than the one of government owned, is total cr@p and is an insult to every ATCO working for SWISSCONTROL, DFS (Deutsche Flugsicherung), AIRWAYS CORPORATION (New Zealand)and others!!

:mad: :mad:

[cxi]

proceed as cleared,
you must get used to the english sense of humour! the brightling's comment was what we call cynical sarcasm!;-)

[Goldfish Watcher]

I'm sure you mean BRITISH humour

[Bright-Ling]

Glad we're not in Europe proper.....they have absolutley no sense of humour!!!!

Seriously ol' chap, it was never meant to be a slur on you or your comrades!

(Thought that the Swiss were non-combatant!)

[Proceed As Cleared]

Bright-Ling,

Ok, is accepted.
But remember: We keep our armyguns at home! :)

[Web-Footed Flyer]

I understand the cat took off with the thread ;) ;) ;)

------------------


[This message has been edited by Web-Footed Flyer (edited 01 December 2000).]