Heathrow block no's

[rubberjungle]

Is there any plan to update/re organise the taxiway identification at LHR it seems to be in a bit of a mess lately.
Block 131 is down by the 27L holding area yet 132 is right up by 27R. Caused us to make a bit of a mistake this morning vacating 09L at 117 bound for a T4 stand so expecting to head South along 23. Told to route via block 132 found 130,131 on the plate in the area we expected to head toward so headed in that direction whilst frantically searching for 132 only to find it behind us to the North.
OK so we made the mistake and should have asked but 121.7 was busy and our tail was still in the RET and we made the mistake of EXPECTING to go the usual way.
Just seems a bit unnecessary to have such an illogical layout of the block no.s.
Cheers RJ.

[Gonzo]

rubberjungle,

I know what you mean, it was a bummer to learn them in the first place!

I've seen an email around in the tower about the Ops people doing a study on the implications of changing to the ICAO standard, ie. HA1, HA2, HA3 etc etc, so something may come of it.

Gonzo

[ATCO Two]

I sense a Heathrow newbie! Oh dear, someone was confused today. Right, first of all you would have vacated 09L at Block 17 (not Blk 117 which is on the extension taxiway on the way to 09L RHA). I don't understand the onward routeing either, as Blk 132 is in the 27R RHA! This is only generally used for remote holding traffic during Easterly operations. Was your stand occupied? Even if it was it would have been unusual to hold you so far from T4. I suspect that this was a slip of the tongue or a misheard instruction - (possibly a trianee on GMC?). Usual holding positions for crossing 09R are Blks 75/131, Blk 130, or Blk 78.

As for the illogical numbering system, the blocks are numbered in the order in which they were commissioned (more or less,)and Heathrow users have become accustomed to them over the years. We try and keep the use of block numbers to a minimum, and use plain language where this is clearer. Having said that, HAL are under considerable pressure to conform with international convention and use alpha numeric taxiway designators. HAL,and it must be said ATC, are against this proposal but should it be forced upon us the new designators will be introduced on a progressive basis, starting on the Southern half of the airport. Why do we oppose the change? Usual reasons - safety and to avoid confusion. The new designators will apply to much larger areas of concrete than the current block numbers. Say you were sitting in your B777 in a queue of several B777s of the same airline on the extension taxiway to 09R. Suddenly you have a fire and we have to direct the Airport Fire Service to you in a hurry. In the absence of outside clues, how do we accurately inform the AFS of your location? With block numbers it is far easier to pinpoint exact locations. Also with the plethora of alpha numeric stand numbers, I could imagine taxy instructions becoming both long winded and confusing. RTF loading is heavy enough on GMC and I don't think that the introduction of new taxiway designators is likely to help the situation. Just my opinion.

[rubberjungle]

Gonzo thanks for the constructive reply.

ATCO2 I am not that new really, just prepared to admit when I made a mistake for some constructive comment. It was block 17 you are quite correct.We were supposed to do a 180 into 132 so the radio comms were correct.I have been routed several times down to cross at the 27left threshold when going to a Victor stand.
Valid point about several A/C in a line, this would also occur just about anywhere busy--maybe ask A/C in question to switch on all lights for ident.
Cheers RJ

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Reminds me a bit of the old BOAC types: "Is it left here, London?"

I'll bet the "average block", which we worked out during one long and boring night duty years ago, has changed considerably now!

[ATCO Two]

Hi RJ,

Still a strange routeing - what was the reason for turning left into Blk 132? I wasn't inferring that it was you that was confused! Reference crossing at 27L threshold, that's why I mentioned holding in Blks 75/131 in my reply. As a T4 operator we would only expect you to be familiar with blocks used for holding before crossing a runway - the ones I mentioned, plus Blks 67(o), 90, 91 and 118 and the blocks in the RHAs for each runway.

[rubberjungle]

Hi ATCO2

There was an SAA (I think) Jumbo being towed up 23 to the maintenance area and it was a delaying tactic to get us out of the way of somebody vacating after us. But was certainly unusual.
Wish more airports(ie USA) had switchable greens like LHR makes a hell of a difference in the fog.

Tata..

[Preppy]

Just wondered if anyone in the tower at LHR, "likes" the new cul de sac names (e.g. the "BRAVOS" are now called the "JULIETTES") or the five letter airfield reporting points?
:cool:

[Scott Voigt]

ATCO Two;

It seems to work well in the rest of the world... As to being able to find an aircraft it works well everywhere else. I expect that you will be able to adapt. Shoot, we had to adapt to ICAO airspace stuff as well as METAR <G>... Surely y'all can adapt to right on Bravo left on Tango two, taxi to the gate <G>...

regards

Scott

[Topofthestack]

New block numbers, holding point designators and taxiway lettering WILL be introduced late next spring (around March) so we should have a happy Easter coping with them! :}

[Gonzo]

Holding point designations are in now, and block numbers will be out the window. Outer will be Taxiway Alpha, inner will be taxiway Bravo, and the cul-de-sacs have already been re-designated in preparation.

[tori chelli]

Preppy

If LHR are now using the 5 letter designators as per a map I saw, there was one called MOROW down by 27L holding area...does this invite the phrase "taxi tomorrow"? :p :O ;)

tori

ATCO 2

Alpha numeric stands at LHR? They changed to ICAO 3-number style during the summer...how long since you made it back across the M4 to visit?

Tori :rolleyes:

[Gonzo]

Tori,

ATCO Two's post was in January 2001! I'm sure he's well aware of the change........well, hope so!!!!!

And the 'Taxi to MORRA' has been used over and over and over and over and over again.........to many groans from all in the tower! And is SATUN really pronounced 'Satan' I wonder.........???

Cleared someone to PLUTO the other day, the crew asked where Uranus was.........

[ATCO Two]

Erm, yes I am kind of aware of the changes! Thanks Gonzo for saving me the trouble of mentioning the dates on my last postings on the subject. Rumour has it that the 27L holding points are named after the daughters of the BAA Chairman. There has already been confusion between LOKKI and ROKIT, believe it or not.

[Gonzo]

Hold at PLUTO......Roger, hold at three two.......Negative, hold at holding point PLUTO.........Roger, hold at block TWO TWO...............................Errrrr, Hold on the left of the holding area!

[Max Angle]

The new holding point desigators at LHR are a joke I'm afraid. I don't who came up with the idea but most pilots who don't have English as their first language seem to have a problem with them. They just don't sound like "aviation speak" and I think most non-english speakers think they are mis-hearing a word rather than hearing a holding point name. Back to the drawing board I think, I mean ETTIV and HORKA, give me strength!.

Same goes for the stands, I know ICAO have pushed the change but most other European airports still have alpha-numerics (AMS and CDG for a start) and I don't think you will be seeing them change. Why?, because it works well. What we have now may be standard but it's inferior in every way to what went before it and the same will be true when the taxiways get changed.

[fast cruiser]

Totally agree with Max Angle

If it ain't broke, don't fix it!!!!

The system at LHR has worked well for years, why change something if it works. EU Crap

Would probably put money on still parking on T1 or T3 at CDG in 10 years or D18 at AMS.

Could someone please answer why the Cul-de-sac's were re lettered? ie bravo's now lima's etc a letter is a letter surley.

so presumeably it was in compliance before!!!

[Preppy]

max angle and gonzo


Many consider that the new LHR taxiway designations that will be implemented before Easter are frankly a mess.

I understand that the five letter holding point designations will be changed shortly to six letter designations.......

:ok: :ok:

[Gonzo]

Fast cruiser,

The same cul-de-sac designations could not be kept because we'd run out of letters with T5.

Preppy,

Who have you heard that from? First I've heard of it.

[Preppy]

Gonzo

I understand that the five letter holding point names are non standard (ICAO ?) and will have to go!!

:D

[Capt H Peacock]

I think its all quite clear really, if your allocated say 127R, you land on 27R, and vacate onto the inner and enter the Juliet cul de sac that was once called Bravo (Juliet of course used to be where Romeo is now, next to the Kilos which were where the Gulfs are now) and park on a stand 127R that used to be called Bravo 27R, that’s the one in Apron 2 if you’ve got last months amendment. That is of course unless you’re on 27L in which case you might be allocated Bravo 27R or 127R as it’s called this week, but you’d have to approach it via the western taxiway via the Golf and Hotel cul de sacs that used to be known as the Kilos and Mikes. You would of course have to hold at Romeo Turn which used to be known as Trident corner or Comet corner if the word Trident causes offence, probably better to just go onto the inner at the corner at the once-Romeos which used to be between where the Gulfs and Hotels are now (not the hotels on the Bath Road mind you) . You’d then have to route via the Novembers that don’t exist at all anymore. Just abeam the Alphas (as was) you’ll see 127L and 127R ahead of you 127R being next to 125L and 127L next to 129, they’re the ones that used to be called 27L and 27R, NO NOT THE RUNWAYS, they used to be called 28L and 28R now please keep up! So 127R is the one that’s furthest from PLUTO.

It’s all for commonality with ICAO airports like CDG and FRA where you can still park on D14 and X8. Don’t worry too much, they’ll change it again next week.

Why do I feel like a stranger after 20 years?:uhoh:

[TopBunk]

Capt H P

ROFL. Excellent - I must have been around too long as I understood it all!

[Mick Stability]

I really do think that the unparalleled reputation of Heathrow ATC is being mocked by this ill-conceived reorganisation. Can any ATCO’s out there confirm that controllers and pilots alike have been fully consulted as to the best way forward, or is this just another demonstration of ‘modern’ management techniques at work?

[NineEighteen]

I mean ETTIV and HORKA, give me strength! What with the above as well as 'LOKKI' and 'SNAPA' etc...It sound as if taxiing around LHR now is like a shopping trip to a well known Swedish furniture outlet. :} ;)

[GearDown&Locked]

Pleeeeeeease send in the "Follow-me" 'cos I'm lost :confused: :O :8

[Preppy]

There is a rumour that ETTIV, LOKKI and ROKIT are about to be "ditched"!
I wonder if GONZO is aware of the names of the new reporting points and their positions at LHR :D

[Jerricho]

I hear they are to be renamed

POINT SEVEN IISSA KNOBB :E

[Gonzo]

There a list of one hundred or so, but Ops are keeping them close to their chest.

I'd like to give a special award to the genius who came up with holding point OSTER...doesn't sound at all like Oscar, does it???? :rolleyes:

[Vlad the Impaler]

Jerricho, heard they were to be called OZZIE BASTD JUMPS SHIPS. WOTTA LUCKY FUKKA. KINDA CHILY WINTA

[Yellow Snow]

Genius:D Like it Jerricho.

[mocoman]

I'd like to give a special award to the genius who came up with holding point OSTER...doesn't sound at all like Oscar, does it???

Doh!!!!,

That may have been me, I did suggest it to one of the LL clan when the renaming at the eastern end was first mooted.

Although to be fair; under what specific circumstances could it (has it) cause(d) confusion given your two interpretations of the name?

[Gonzo]

Well, I know that we don't have anything called 'Oscar', but bear in mind that I think we're the only airfield in the world to have five letter holding point names, and that Oscar is used as a phonetic term. Human Factors....The crew hears a word, and plump for the one that they know, and that they knew exists (I doubt that JAL, Air China or Aeroflot have heard of Auster, or that it's actually a word.

I reckon maybe forty percent of aeroplanes were reading back 'Oscar' to me on our last bout of easterlies, icluding lots of UK airlines., and many would just not read anything back.

We have to go back and make sure they understand what we mean, because they'll start looking on their maps for a taxiway Oscar to hold at. Then they'll find there isn't one, and ask us again where they should hold... As they approach an active runway, you don't want any aeroplane, be it UK of Russian, unsure of where they're going to hold..

It's the same with ETTIV; many foreigners, including Air Canada, still read back 'Echo'.

(edit for spelling)

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

>>That may have been me, I did suggest it to one of the LL clan when the renaming at the eastern end was first mooted.

Although to be fair; under what specific circumstances could it (has it) cause(d) confusion given your two interpretations of the name?>>

So. someone who is not an ATCO decides these things? Has NATS gone completely barking mad?

[mocoman]

HD:

with the very greatest respect.

someone who is not an ATCO decides these things?

I think you are over-stating my possible involvement in this decision-making process.

Gonzo asked the question-
who came up with holding point OSTER...

As I stated, I suggested it to an ATCO and it may have been submitted and then chosen. That choice was not mine to make.

I asked the question regarding the specific gripe that Gonzo has with it out of interest.

I'll try to curb my honesty and interest in future.


Gonzo:
thanks for the reply, I see your point there


I'll get my coat
:hmm:

[Jerricho]

Vlad, that's a great idea!!!! I like it ;)