Farnborough on Sunday

[mark147]

OK, so does anyone know what was going on at Farnborough on Sunday afternoon?

They had a 10nm radius temporary class A CTR up to 5,000 ft for an hour. But, having grabbed 200 cubic miles of airspace, they didn't even have anyone on their LARS frequency to offer transits or even remind people of the existance of the zone. I'd bet a fair amount that they had infringements.

The lack of LARS wasn't NOTAMed -- can they just remove their service during notified hours of operation without notice? I even phoned them before departure to ask the likelyhood of a transit and got a perfectly reasonable "we will if we can; call us on 125.25" answer.

Does anyone know what was going on? I presume it was Her Majesty or one of her friends -- fair enough but 10 nm radius up to 5,000 and no ATC service at all?

Farnborough would normally win any 'LARS provider of the year' award in my book but I wasn't impressed yesterday!

Mark

[Fuji Abound]

If I said, I would have to shoot myself.

[Bright-Ling]

10 mile radius sounds like a Royal Flight. (normally only up to 3500ft though)

Lack of LARS sounds like staffing problems. (poss due to late notice sickness etc)

[Wee Jock]

Why not ring the Manager ATS up and ask him (Alex Bristol) he's a very helpful chap. And if there was a class A CTR someone must have been controlling it - did you try Approach, or the Tower even?

[PA7]

mark147


OK, so does anyone know what was going on at Farnborough on Sunday afternoon?

Yes many pilots did obviously you did not


They had a 10nm radius temporary class A CTR up to 5,000 ft for an hour. But, having grabbed 200 cubic miles of airspace, they didn't even have anyone on their LARS frequency to offer transits or even remind people of the existance of the zone. I'd bet a fair amount that they had infringements.


It sounds like you were not flying at the time or had selected the wrong frequency, the guy's at EGLF were working their butts off. They were reminding pilots well before and during the CAS-T. many got SVFR clearances the ones that did not had to wait in turn. Infringements of the zone compound delays to pilots waiting for SVFR clearances.


The lack of LARS wasn't NOTAMed --

You will find it was NOTAMed, could this be a lack of flight planning perhaps??

LARS did close after the airspace had reverted to class G and the local airfields were informed. all aircraft on the freq were also informed of this individually. It remained closed for for 37mins to enable breaks and re-opened bandboxed. I believe this may be the period you are talking about.
Mark if you are going to post on the forum the least you can do is try and get the facts right without sensationalising.
Enjoy your flying and continue to give us a call.

PA

[Bright-Ling]

A fantastic factual answer. Well done PA.

And Wee Jock is right. You can always speak to ANY of the staff at FAB any of the time. They are ALWAYS helpful and friendly.

Sounds like someone got out of the bed the wrong side on Sunday!

[TD&H]

PA7

Not knowing the full details, so I'm NOT taking sides. However, as has been discussed on other threads, eg when Hairyplane reported infringements of a display at Old Warden, unless you select exactly the right brief on the AIS notam website, perhaps on a narrow route briefing, then not all notams were being shown. Unfortunately there is no decent help on their website to ensure you get all the correct information/ do the correct selection.

I tried several times searching for info regarding an air display at Old Warden, and the AIS website was NOT showing one display, but showing another closure that wasn't a display.

So maybe......? AGAIN I STRESS NO SIDES BEING TAKEN

[mark147]

Mark if you are going to post on the forum the least you can do is try and get the facts right without sensationalising.The facts from my point of view were pretty much as I stated:

Temporary CTR in force from 1415 to 1515 according to NOTAM (which I had read and so had called Farnborough by phone before take-off to clarify).

I arrive on frequency at approx 1450 (could check my plog for a more accurate time if you're interested). Silence. Lots of a/c calling, no response, occasional replies from other a/c stating frequency believed closed.

The CTR was NOTAMed but the lack of service was not (at least not at 1100) and I had been told on the phone to call on 125.25 for a transit.

You say that: LARS did close after the airspace had reverted to class G and the local airfields were informed. all aircraft on the freq were also informed of this individually.According to the NOTAM the class A remained until 1515. If you're saying that it reverted to class G early then that's great but if I arrive on frequency and there's no-one there, I can't assume that the CTR has gone, so I have to amuse myself for 10 minutes until 1515 before continuing my journey. With hindsight I could have tried to call Farnborough App but the frequency is not on the chart or the frequency reference card. I did have a flight guide though so I could have looked it up.

Really, I wasn't trying to antagonise -- as I say, Farnborough normally do a fantastic job. I was simply trying to find out what had happened and try to learn for next time. All the replies have been very helpful to that end but hopefully you'll see that for a pilot wanting to get from one side of the zone to the other who came on frequency after it had temporarily closed, it all seemed a bit of a mess!

Mark

[Monocock]

Must say (for what it's worth) that I do feel sorry for Farnborough on the whole.

They seem to get their fair share of life story tellers who really don't need to bother calling them. When there is an international gliding competition or a generally chaotic sunny Sunday they really don't want to know about Quentin in his PA28 going from Popham to Kemble for a cafe moccha and a bacon and cheese ciabatta.

I often find these days that you can get your own flight information service just from maintaining a listening watch while flying in Class G nearby to Farnborough. The poor blokes don't seem to get a break from it. My temper would fray within minutes if I was put into that situation. Do people really think that they will be told about all conflicting traffic? Of course they won't. If anyone can say that they have never seen a particularly close contact whilst receiving a FIS I will eat my fuel tester.

There still seem to be so many who feel they have covered their arses because they have asked for a FIS. Is this something that goes back to training days? ie the feeling of comfort that is provided by a FIS.

Safest way to go is to get the QNH and fly an altitude that no-one else will be at like 1875 feet etc!!

Just my two penneth......

[Big Hilly]

It's also worth remembering the rules regarding the provision of LARS (sometimes they just can't offer a service because the poor bu**ers are simply too busy/short staffed etc etc) and also that Farnborough gets a special mention in ENR 1.6.3 (http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/pubs/aip/pdf/enr/2010603.PDF) Advice to Pilots
5.1 The provision of LARS is at the discretion of the controllers concerned because they may be fully engaged in their primary tasks. Therefore, occasionally, the service may not be available.

5.2 While every effort will be made to ensure safe separation for pilots complying with RAS procedures, since compliance is not compulsory, some aircraft may not be known to controllers. Pilots should therefore keep a careful look-out at all times.
5.2.1
Farnborough and Boscombe Down Service Limitations
5.2.1.1 Due to periodic traffic congestion and high ATC workload, only a limited radar service (ENR 1-6-1-1, paragraph 2) may be available from the following ATS Units:

(a) Farnborough. Limited R'S - At all altitudes/Flight Levels. Aircraft inbound to Farnborough should contact Farnborough Approach on 134.350 MHz. On weekdays (excluding PHs) LARS/MATZ service is not normally available on 125.250 MHz after 2000 hrs (one hour earlier in summer). Traffic inbound to Odiham should contact Odiham Approach on 131.300 MHz;


Hope that helps.

Regards,

Big Hilly

[Bright-Ling]

Mark, This my guess!! :)

The problem arises in the fact that the shift change over is at 1400L.

Therefore, on this occasion I would guess that LARS was only NOTAM'd as unavailable after 1400 when that shift arrived and realised that they now had three staff for three positions! (TWR/LARS and APPROACH)

As the airspace was NOTAM'd as active between the times mentioned, there had to be an APPROACH controller available on 134.35. Therefore, LARS would have been unmanned. (and as such there was a known environment in the CAS-T).

It seems that you were unlucky to phone when you did (the morning shift wouldn't know if the afternoon shift were undermanned) - and you arrived at the time of the CAS-T.

Personally, I think that there is a case for a recorded message to be put out ON 125.25 as there is on SVFR in times of closure.

Just a thought.... :)
:ok: