Sheffield City

[Aim Far]

Here's a bit of polite advice for the management at Sheffield City.

I did a little jaunt up to the Peak District yesterday and thought I'd stop at Sheffield for fuel and food. So I phoned for PPR. I was told that, as I hadn't been there before, I needed to fax them a signed terms and conditions form before they could accept me. I didn't have access to a fax machine at the time and had no burning desire to go there anyway.

So Sherburn got my money.

Its your airport and you can do what you like and the staff were polite about it. But this kind of policy smacks of blind following of conservative legal advice without sufficient thought to the commercial effects on your market. It does not encourage GA to pop by and give you its business; not everyone plans flights much in advance, especially on Sundays. AFAIK no other GA airport requires this other than for out of hours use. Its not even good law - there are plenty of other ways of effectively imposing an indemnity clause as part of a contract if that's the issue.

[ShyTorque]

Oh dear, how silly. PPR by phone is one thing but.....

Last one out of Sheffield please switch off the lights..... :(

[QNH 1013]

You are making the assumption that the operators want the airport to survive. I understand that according to local newspaper articles and some on the internet there is some kind of strange deal between the council and operators that results in the operators getting ownership of an extremely valuable business park for one pound if the airport is shown to be a failure. If this is true, there is not much incentive for them to make it a success is there?

Does anyone have the complete facts?

[rotorboater]

I was a bit annoyed when they asked me to do it the 1st time I went there but I think they have to do it not only for insurance but to ensure you have read the joining details which are quite restrictive, there are no circuits, no visiting students and very strict joining procedures because of the fact it is in the middle of a City.

After you go for the 1st time you don't need to do the fax again. Although it is a pain in the ar$e for the 1st time, it is probably better in the long run that it is done that way and maybe other fields with NIMBY problems should do the same as there is nothing worse for them than a new visitor flying straight over the biggest complainers house!

[helicopter-redeye]

It is normally worth phoning for PPR in advance although nice just to drop in too (brings in landing fees/ sells fuel/ life blood of an airport etc).

The joining procedures (Fixed and Rotary) are not so complex that a PPL cannot handle them without prior briefing (its on the outside of a City (right on the City limits in fact) and there is no restricted area around, so actually easier than Denham/ Fairoaks/ Blackpool/ Leeds Heli/ Sydney Bankstown/ etc.

This is of course what flight guides and approach plates are for.

The reason may lie in the assumptions about liabilities of the airport in the event of damage ?? (see AOPA December magazine).

I don't want to say anymore in an open forum as one of the resident pilots has just had notice to quit served for being 'difficult' in writing (reported in local paper so public info).

PM is you want more.

[Aim Far]

If they have joining procedures, they can put them in the AIP and flight guides and I will read them. I am even happy to confirm, verbally, when phoning for PPR that I have done so. The AIP says they require £1m insurance cover, which I have. I am also willing to confirm that when calling for PPR and I carry a certificate in my aircraft to prove it.

I agree that the problem is likely to be that the airport operators want to impose an exclusion of liability of some kind. Some lawyer has rightly said that courts don't look kindly on exclusion clauses, will hesitate before implying them into verbal contracts and, when faced with an exclusion clause in standard terms and conditions, will often only give effect to that clause where its existence has been brought to the attention of the other party to the contract before the contract is entered into.

But the job of management is to take that advice and find a way to incorporate it into their procedures in a way which doesn't harm their business. My point is that the fax procedure isn't the way. It would, for instance, be 99% as effective to include a line in the AIP and flight guides along the lines of "Use of the airport is subject to the airport's terms and conditions which you are deemed to accept when landing. The terms and conditions are available from [www.whatever] and include certain exclusions of liability which you are advised to read before using the airport."

QNH1013 - if you are right, that is just depressing.

[jayemm]

For Sheffield:

"PPR by telephone or Fax. Radio PPR will not be accepted"

It seems pretty straightforward to me. Time was, you couldn't take an SEP aircraft into Sheffield at all.

If you are really concerned about Sheffield getting your support (which they need by the way) call them , fill in the fax form (dead easy) and arrange to visit them. You only have to send the fax the first time.

It's a great airport, very close to the city centre (not many of those left) and with very friendly ATC and staff.

I'm not a resident.

[witchdoctor]

Seems like the regs are a bit hit and miss with regards to Sheffield. Drop in a couple of times a year for a pit stop and never had a problem arranging it over the RT. Never once been asked to arrange PPR by fax.

[Capt BK]

QNH has hit the nail on the head, the land is worth more to the operators as a buisness park then as an airport but they can't just close it otherwise the council will do their nut!

However if it fails as an airport the council will put their hands up and hand it over. That is why the operators are cutting the runway in half but not closing it. It is why they are building offices on the climb out - it won't stop you flying but you would be mad to do it! It is also the reason the operators are trying to reduce the car parking that each of the clubs/schools have, so as to limit buisness.

Stinks if you ask me:mad: :mad:

CBK

[zzzz]

A friend of mine was pricing a job for one of the firms on the airport business park. He got a good look at the 'chopped up' runway plans with the proposed siting of the office units on what was half of Sheffields runway.

Is anyone aware if these plans are in the public domain, or have been submitted to planning?

(Or has my mate had a sneak preview!)

[helicopter-redeye]

They are pretty much in the public domain, as the local paper carries pages on the subject each week.

Local opinion is divided. There are really very few pilots in Sheffield (never been an airfield locally to train many) and the locals clearly do not want planes and rotors in their overhead on a sunny Sunday.

However I do not think the Local Authority have the belly for a fight to keep the place open. For them, there is a dream about creating new jobs in a plush new business park (real or not, remember people can commute in as well as get hired locally).

The real issue is about the public money that went into creating the airport in the first place (that would be our taxes then) and WHO agreed to sell the land for a peppercorn £1 if the airport was not a success?? if this point reported in the local press is true.

The region is poorly served for GA. After EGSY, Netherthorpe is small, grass and still not local. Gamston is a long drive. Sherburn and Nottingham further.

If the airport goes, or becomes untenable, then there is no other local alternative that can provide a realistic driver for GA in the region (notwithstanding the quality of these other fields, I was very happy at Gamston except for the bl@&dy drive there and back).

More GA pilots writing to the Local Authority to express their views would help. AOPA is on the case but more people telling Martin Robinson about situations will keep it high on the pile of other cases

There may be a situation around soon where the airport owners suggest that traffic shifts to Finningley (Doncaster-Sheffield-Robin Hood Airport). If this occurs, the costs of flying will almost certainly go up and IFR jet traffic will get priority.

I'm note sure what the solution is.




:(

Check out Flyer for December on the topic too.

And the AOPA December magazine.

All letters to the Council members named from GA pilots would be welcome.

SOA,

h-r

:D

[MichaelJP59]

I'm doing my PPL training at Sheffield, and I only really started because as h-r said, the area is poorly served for GA, especially to the west where the Pennines start. I don't have a lot of spare time and can't justify a 2-hour round trip drive on top of my flying time.

Not sure what can be done though - a few private pilots don't make much of a lobbying group, and planning permission for Finningley was the death-knell for any commercial operations from Sheffield:(

- Michael

[helicopter-redeye]

Depends what you mean by commercial. There is a lot of scope for commercial heli-ops.

But then when EGSY was a commercial field the prices were higher than most major airports in Europe (I kept my first landing bill there as an example of how to get GA NOT to fly into an airport - you can land 8 times at Gamston for the same price).

So we don't want Easyjet & co there (they can go to Finningley) but a few King Airs, Learjets & etc would be OK. There are two hangers full of them at Gamston but I've heard Sheffield turning them down in the past.

Look at the expansion of Gamston today. 8 hangers full today and two more to be built, plus ground parking. Loads of movements.

Lobbying has to be on commercial grounds - ie the committment to keep the airport open to '07 at least. It was built with public money.

And if the current operators cannot make money from it, hand it over for a £1 to somebody who can.

Now there's a thought ....




:E :8 :ooh:

[zzzz]

The council will love the idea of a business park, as it will be seen to be creating business and prosperity. The real fact is that the majority of companies which will move in, will be just moving in from other parts of the region. The business park will generate no NEW business growth. Sheffield is packed full fo brown field sites ripe for development.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Incidentally, Sheffield University have just launched a new degree course "Aerospace Engineering with Private Pilot Instruction", which proudly states here (http://www.shef.ac.uk/p/prospectus/coursedetail.php?courseid=373) that the instruction will be at Sheffield City airport.

Which, I wonder is the biggest wealth generator? - the University (which last I looked is one of the highest rated in Britain), or another of several dozen business parks - half of which in Sheffield are in severe need of bulldozing and rebuilding anyhow.

G

[helicopter-redeye]

Depends if you mean "wealth" or "political capital".

The University (the best in the world, incidentally...) generates a lot of business for the City.

More business park will look like it's doing a lot even if it is just companies relocating from the City Centre or another area. There is a lot of other spaces that could be built on within the City without knocking out the airport.

Let's face it, it all comes down to land ownership. If you own the land (for a £1) then its a good investment. If you have to buy it, you make less profit.

Leeds are running a similiar course at EGSY but I heard from the fuelmaster a couple of weeks ago that they are moving out and a load of Sea King helicopters and S76's are moving in.

Perhaps Dylan can comment on the Leeds bit. It would be a pity if they were gone. More flights needed, not less.


:( :{


Incidently, why, as noted in Flyer P16, has the airport been "... making substantial losses for seven years"?

[Genghis the Engineer]

The Leeds course is a science degree rather than an engineering degree - and thus quite a different beast.

G

[helicopter-redeye]

I guess the flying bit will be quite similiar

h-r

[Genghis the Engineer]

One assumes so - but probably quite a small part of either course.

G

[helicopter-redeye]

For the GA community, esp. PPL training, how big an issue will the reduced runway be?

My understanding is that this is at the Western end (10 threshold) where there is a hugh stop area anyway, and mostly the RIU is 28.

I can see how it will stop the King Air/ Learjet/ Royal Flights and has no impact on us Rotary, but the revised length would only be about the same as Fairoaks/ Denham (813m//775m).

[muffin]

Strangely I did exactly the same thing as the original poster on Sunday. I wanted to get some fuel so I thought I would try EGSY for a change as I have never been there. I got the same response re faxed forms, so I went and found a neighbour who had a fax at home, got the form, signed it, returned it and rang them. I then got a whole load of questions about arrival times, departure times, no of pax etc, but the final straw was the requirement for wearing hi vis jackets (which I don't have) to just go and pay for the fuel - on a quiet Sunday morning.

So I canned the idea and went to Tatenhill instead where they are very friendly, very helpful and never even mention orange jackets!

[helicopter-redeye]

I think the yellow vest thing is gettableroundable by having somebody walk with you to reception to pay.

The fire/ fuel crew will usually oblige, or somebody else on the ramp.

In the bad old days of "la grande illusion" you had to pay for somebody to walk with you even if you had the jacket (I recall it was £15 either way, so £30 round trip) which might be why nobody ever landed there.

Tatenhill is a very green airfield so it would be safer to wear yellow to be seen. Most people standout against the gray of the Sheffield ramp.

h-r

[muffin]

I have to admit that I did not ask about the availability of a jacketed companion, so perhaps I was a bit hasty. To be fair, I have heard good things about Sheffield and I imagine that they also are irritated by the rules under which they have to operate.

Their problem in this respect is that all their local competition are very relaxed, and a quick radio call to announce your arrival is all that is necessary. Hence I usually fuel up at Tatenhill or Derby or maybe Nottingham.

By the way, what is the landing fee at EGSY for an R22?

[Rockwell]

The original builder of Sheffield Airport (can't recall... was it Budge?) was after the coal deposits and completed a deal with the local development agency of the time for open caste coal mining of the Tinsley area, at the end of which the land was to be tidied up and partly used for an international airport modelled on London City STOL port. This started off in a blaze of council led glory, until it steadily petered out as, sadly, one airline after another dropped out.

Later, when Peel acquired Finningley, with the intention of making it into a major airport, various objections began to surface from the likes of Humberside Airport, Leeds/Bradford and Sheffield Airport and their respective councils/owners, who foresaw a loss of revenue for their local airports if Finningley went ahead.

Peel bought Sheffield Airport so as to remove one objector from that list, at the same time obtaining some prime building land. There was the proviso in the sale that it was to remain operational as an airport for a number of years (7?). The fact that it never made money as an airport then, or now, suggests that Peel see the long term future of the land as being used for something else, when the proviso runs its period, by which time Finningley will be open, leaving Sheffield, perhaps, with a heliport and a 650m strip.

Peel is primarily a highly successful land/property company. They have acquired, or have the majority share holding, in 5 airfield sites (Liverpool/Teesside/Barton/Sheffield/Finningley). They have acquired those sites for the commercial brown field building land which is located within the site boundaries.

[helicopter-redeye]

Muffin, if you land a R22 and take on fuel it should be free (minima is about 50l avgas).

The strategic plan for EGSY points to more rotary traffic, for even if the runway is 'sawn orf' the rotary ramp is huge.

This is the frustrating thing. They want more movements and put in place incentives like no LF if fuel uplifted and then refuse the movement.

It is like a programme of "passive rejection" of custom. And perhaps this comes back to one of the original threads about a desire to fail.

:(

The original building deal was done by the SDC in the early 90\'s.

I recall the arrangement was that RJB Mining would develop the site in exchange for open cast (which you can see on the Helicopters South Golf Course Approach, just don\'t autorotate into the hole) but have some recollection of there being a problem that left them with the open cast site but no airport (forget the exact details).

I think the work was done with European funding and underwriten by the council.

One of the former airport managers at Gamston was involved in the planning of the airport and told me that a better runway alignment could have yielded more runway and hence made it more attractive for airlines to use.

The original flight was a KLM UK to Schipol (always full and v useful flight because of connections). This was ended (KLM wanted lots at Schipol ???????? but it was always very full and popular so don\'t understand that one in \'98/\'99)

Then BA City Express with flights to LCY, Belfast and Dublin. The City flights were a non starter. I was often the only PAX on a J41 (expensive anyway) so it never made money but much faster than the trains.

Then there was the famous crash (reverse thrust I think).

Then Sabena for a while, and the final flight was the Belfast route.

The only big traffic in since are royal flights in an Avro146 (which can stop on the current runway).

The big problem in the airline days was cost. Landing etc was prohibitive whereas a Swansea/ Cardiff/ Southampton type operation was (and is) significantly less expensive and much more welcoming.

Problem of strategy or problem of people?

Also, read more here from the Council eGov site

http://www.sheffield.gov.uk/index.asp?pgid=26549

What difference will the shorter runway make to GA?

[zzzz]

What difference will the shorter runway make to GA?

Well not much really, when you see the bulk of the present movements...BUT...should Peel get to buy it for a pound?

Shouldn't the airport go on the open market?

And can't a GA airport make money, especially if it is bought and paid for, up and running, without a management which aims to discourage business.

There must be the occasional 'bigger' user who needs the 1200m runway. Even the airport website shows a Challenger parked on the apron.

[helicopter-redeye]

I think the Challenger was a bit of a one off (the Queen drops in occasionally but not on a 650M runway).

The link on my previous to the Council site shows a plan for building to the West but with a committment to keep the 650M plus heliport for a further seven years (2014AD).

You have to elsewhere for circuit training anyway so it might also drive some business into N'thorpe, Gamston, Sandtoft and Sherburn for duel site training schools plus the passing trade.

The thing that hobbles the place are the opening hours. No actions or movements before 0830, so it can never have any kind of real business activity (ie you cant fly to Denham or Southampton or anywhere for meetings unless they are 1300hrs onwards.

The helicopter shuttles to other 'northern airports' are unlikely to gain traction. For Manchester business flights this would mean lifting twin pilot IFR (in Winter) over the Peak with a lift time around 05:30 local. If the place does not open till 0830 all outbound will miss the business flights.

I wonder which 'consultants' advised on that study ...




:hmm: