OJTI Whingers

[cleared2land 27left]

In response to the recent post about us T&D whingers.

All of the OJTI atcos who are considering a training ban seem to be also whinging about the same thing as us T&Ders. That is money.

The net result of being an OTJT is not meant to be the extra pay, but to help contribute to the increased number of valid ATCOs (no matter how poorly paid in relation to yourselves) at your unit. When you train an ATCO up to vaildation standard this will mean far more than just increased pay for yourself. It will mean in the short term, more oppurtunity for breaks and reduced time per session, more annual leave as there are more valid atcos to cover absence, and eventually your retirement as there are people there to replace you.

As you slate T&D Valid ATCOs for wanting pay equality you are also wanting more money for training people. So if you feel so put out by not being rewarded financially why dont you just give up your OJTI ticket?

Oh yes but i forgot that would mean less money for you!

[HounslowHarry]

You're on a sticky wicket young man.

What say you discuss this matter with your mentors?

[evenflow]

Oh, Young man

[cleared2land 27left]

By all means I am happy to discuss this issue with MY mentors, however they seem to support the T&D claim.

Let me point something out, there is one thing in common with both our posts on whinging - BOTH GROUPS WANT AN END RESULT OF MORE MONEY!

Let me quote a recent union newsletter "A Union is a group of people working towards a common goal"

So why are you not supporting T&Ders where as I am pretty sure that all trainees and recently valid ATCOs would support a cliam for more pay scale points for OJTIs.

[Evil Jethro]

I have to come out in support of 27L here. Isn't it strange there wasn't a ballot on T&D industrial action? Or perhaps not, given the views of those who "represent" us...

[HounslowHarry]

C2L27L
Where did I say that I did support the T&D'ers.
Actions should speak louder than words!

And Evil, actually it isn't at all strange that there wasn't a ballot for industrial action.

Call me old fashioned, but there isn't much point when the people who are represented vote to accept the deal. It is called democracy, you know something people actually participate in, rather than whingeing about it all the time.

[Chatterbox]

Nicely put Harry,
or was that Harriet,


C2L27L,
I think ya'll find that your mentors want ya to validate for more reasons than one.
Yes, they want to be able to take leave when they want to, as will you, and not have to work right up to regulated hours and beyond.
I think you will also find that most of 'your' mentors will actually take pride in the fact that YOU reached validation. Honestly how much help was the stuff ya did at college with respect to what ya doing now?

Can't we all leave money out of this?

Chatters

[BuzzLightyear]

Cleared2land27left

Please remember that until very very recently top of the scale ATCO's did not recieve any payment for their duties. So there was no incentive for them to continue to put their licence at risk to train people. At least that has changed with the new pay deal.

Remember at some units when someone validates it doesn't necessarily mean that you get an increase in numbers, it usually only releases someone who has been waiting to be posted out for the past few years.

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To infinity and beyond

[cleared2land 27left]

Chatter - Yes I am sure my mentors want me to validate for many reasons, the main one being my validation representing their continued hard efforts throughout my training. I may have brought money into this part of the debate, but simply to outline the issue of one set of people being against the T&Ders and criticising them for wanting to be on the ATCO2 Pay scale.

Buzz - I am aware that people at the top of the scale did not get any extra payment and I think that is very unfair. The extra stress, effort and risks that come with the OJTI ticket are worth a great deal of money.


I totally accept that OJTIs should be more rewarded for their efforts, AND I AM IN NO WAY AGAINST THEIR CLAIM FOR MORE PAYMENT TO OJTIS. The point of my thread above was in response to the people on the T&D scale being labeled as whingers. The arguement is not "just" about the money as some people are led to believe.

[WonkyVectors]

Cleared

So if its not about money then what is it about?

hehehehe

[U R NumberOne]

It isn't necessarily about the cash - but it is nice to get some extra reward when you train and train only to have the effects of your good work pulled out from under your feet when the recently valids resign 'cos they're already sick of the place after a couple of years or else others are posted out when they are still very much needed and are released for reasons I can't even start to comprehend :mad: .

Buzz - you wouldn't have a vested interest in training so you can be posted would you??

[1261]

Ask yourself..... why are they resigning???

[This message has been edited by 1261 (edited 21 November 2000).]

[LANDAFTERTHEWOT]

As a 'non state' ATCO and a OJTI I have been reading all the latest posts ref NATS pay awards / OJTI pay and T&D scales with interest.... some of you really need to get into the real world, and with PPP just round the corner you may just find yourselves there sooner than you think!!!!

If nothing else it will make some of your future posts even more WHINGING!

Welcome to the private sector... underpaid, overworked, management??? yerrrrright!!!
But at least we actually want to do this job and enjoy it.

Anyone want a job??? I'm recruiting!


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Hand over watch...and run away

[BuzzLightyear]

U R NumberOne

No I most certainly do not want to be posted out.

I'll give you a clue. It took me long enough to get to the unit I am, or should I say we are at in the first place!

I get as p****d of as you about people who will quite happily sign a mobile contract, get thousands of pounds worth of unbonded, no cost training and then when they get their ratings validated, bog off to be nearer to mummy.Our remote location and shift pattern don't help those who live long distances away from their nearest and dearest but, they signed on the dotted line.



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To infinity and beyond

[113.55]

We deserve the money because all you trainees are working on our licences in case you hadn't noticed so in effect in training you ,you could say we are putting our licences on the line!!! Thats what the extra money is for, and yes personally I take a great deal of pride in one of my trainees reaching validation standard.

[Late Downwind]

LANDAFTERTHEWOT - where, pray, are you recruiting? Send us a mail!

[viva77]

landafterthewot
I know someone who's looking for a job too!

[Chilli Monster]

landafterthewot

Where?

(signed very bored and under-utilised non-state ADC ATCO http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif)

[Warped Factor]

Chilli,

I thought you were happy up north? :)

WF.

[Chilli Monster]

WF

The things we do for an App and Radar course - it was either that or take to the streets :) (Roll on January and Bailbrook - then please god SEND ME SOMEWHERE ELSE!!!!)

But at least the visits from Girl Flyday keep me sane ;)

[This message has been edited by Chilli Monster (edited 28 November 2000).]

[FooFighter]

An interesting fact - there is potentially a breach of the European laws on Human Rights - two people should not be doing the same job on different pay SCALES (the actual amount is not our gripe) - if we talked about a man and a woman on different pay grades, we'd be up in arms - this is basically the same issue - equality.

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The FooFighter Is Going To Layeth The Sequence Down On ALL your Candy Asses...

[BuzzLightyear]

Foo

The T&D scale may not be popular, but it was originally concieved to stop the inequality of students who fail to validate at ATCO2 units after several years of unproductive work being posted to an ATCO3 unit and earning more than some of the ATCO3's who had been working on their own licence for a considerable period of time. I am even aware of at least one case at our unit when one failure to validate was taking home more than his ATCO2 watch manager!

Now where is the equality in that?

In the old system we used to hear the same arguments. Most ATCO's who were posted to airports would be valid on at least one position by graduation whereas their area counterparts would still be u\t, so the day after graduation the 3's would complain about the area people earning more while not actually putting their own licence on the line.

I would love for there to be a fair system where everyone was happy, but lets face it, whatever sytem is dreamed up, somebody will not like it. There are problems with the T&D scale, but surely it has to be fairer than the previous system.



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To infinity and beyond

[HounslowHarry]

Hey FOO

I'd love everyone to be paid the same for the same job.

But the fact of life is that that rate would not be the top of the ATCO2 scale.

Everyone, YES everyone, would lose out of an equality system, and the differnce between the men and women argument is that everyone does earn equally over the span of their career. Let's keep it that way.

Also for a company running an incremental scheme, it also poses an incentive for the less experienced staff to stay!


[This message has been edited by HounslowHarry (edited 29 November 2000).]

[FooFighter]

Buzz,
I basically agree with you (you know that) but the existing T&D system is flawed. Even the revamped T&D system (with its new interim point without - as far as I know - a job or scale title - is flawed. The system it replaced was even more flawed. To me that seems a good reason to look to a T&D replacement - only by "continuous improvement " can will a fairer system ever be achieved. My personal opinion is that the recent "agreement" (quotes used as I didn't actually agree with it) was a missed opportunity to find something better. And it has caused some divisions amongst the T&D and ex-T&D ATCOs.

Hounslow Harry, you might have missed the point I was (in part) trying to make - I don't expect to earn the same take home pay as the guys at LHR or TC, and I don't expect to earn the same as my colleagues with more experience (and those poor souls who have been unfortunate enough to be my mentor!). (For me) it isn't about cash in pocket. All I would have liked was to be on the same scale (marking time at the bottom of ATCO3 until whatever date I would have progressed to it under the old T&D system would have been more than fine).

Not comparing ATCO2 v ATCO3 worker bee life time earnings, the recent T&D agreement has actually penalised the "most experienced" T&D-ers due to the failure to back date the agreement to date of first validation - I will try to demonstrate:

The new T&D scale was back dated to 31.03.00, and paid in the recent pay - using very rough figures (all "validations" are FIRST validations):

1. PERSON A validates in late 1998 and progresses through T&D until early 2000 - on 31.03.00 is an ATCO3 (by a month or so). Backdating to 1st validation would have paid about £2.5k (very roughly), but payout is zero, nada.

2. PERSON B validates in early 1999 and on 31.03.00 is on the final T&D rung (£21.5pa), but rises to ATCO3 on 03.04.00 - so is due 3 DAYS backpay at £23.5pa (2k difference). Backdating to date of first validation would have also paid about £2.5k - actual pay out is nearer twenty quid!

3. PERSON C validates in early 2000 and is still on T&D point 2 (£19.5pa) on 31.03.00 and thus gets 6 months of back pay calculated on a 4k difference (so about £2k).

I hope I have explained it properly, but the company seems to have penalised those valid longest under T&D and disproportionately rewarded the more recently valid. Certainly that is the main reason why the new T&D scale is unpopular at my unit amongst those who were on the first courses to be signed up to T&D.

I also don't think the new system is an incentive to stay, at least not for soon-to-be ATCO3s (remember, there are TWO interim scales, once for ATCO3 units, one for ATCO2 units) as there are still non-NATS airports paying significantly more to newly valid ATCOs (long term it isn't a winner - I would earn more with NATS over 15 years, but not over the 5 years).

I wish I knew what the solution was, but I don't. And to finish, a positive thought (I'm not a complete "system-kicker") - even with the disparities that I might think exist, not only do I LIKE my job, I'm also earning a lot more than 98% of my school friends!

Cheers
Foo
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It's my sequence and I'll speed control if I want to...

[BuzzLightyear]

Foo

Sorry I didn't realise that the figures were working out quite like that. It is very poor that someone who has been valid a considerable time does not get rewarded for that experience. After all is that not what the pay scale system is meant to be all about?

I like your idea of marking time on the bottom of the scale until validation, it makes sense. That is probably why the powers that be have not adopted it! The only pitfall I can see is where on the pay scale would you expect to enter after validation?

If you only increased to the next point then I wonder if you would in actual fact be any better off. The "unfairness" would also continue in some people's eyes. Consider the following two examples:
Person A successfully validates in February. In March pay they have moved up one scale point. In April they will then get the annual increment. So in the 2 months after validation they will have gained two scale points.
Person B successfully validates in March. In April they will move up one scale point but would probably not be given an additional scale point as they were already recieving an increment.
So Person B, although the difference in validation dates could be days,possibly through no fault of their own, will always be a point behind even though they have similar experience. No justice there, I think you will agree.The only consolation would be that, as you said on your original post, that you would be on the same pay scale as the next person doing the same job.

I know it was only an idea, and I am NOT knocking it. You are right that the system should be continuously improved, but look how long it took to settle the pay deal! You will probably be worrying about how much you'll get to retire early before it gets sorted!!Plus ca change mais le meme chose!
(Apologies to french scholars everywhere)

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To infinity and beyond