Logging hours in the US

[piston broke 2]

All,
I've heard through word of mouth that in the US, any hours logged can be logged as P1 by both captain and 'co-pilot', instead of P1 and P2 respectively.

Is this true or a load of old cobblers?

Pist

[BEagle]

If you wish to those demanding hours flogging up and down East Florida in a clapped-out 152 with a colleague for JAR-FCL purposes, then they must be recorded in accordance with JAR-FCL requirements.

[Dan Winterland]

And don't be tempted to 'elaborate' on the hours actually flown either. The CAA have been known to check with the aircraft's maintenace organisation to see how many hours went in the aircraft's logbook over the relevant period.

[ThePirateKing]

And don't forget there's no such thing as P2 unless you are flying a Multi-Crew aircraft.

TPK:ok:

[FlyingForFun]

Under FARs, a "Safety Pilot" can log time as P1. This is only applicable if the captain is wearing foggles and flying on instruments in VMC - if that's the case, both he and the person sitting next to him can log the time, and count it towards any hours that the FAA may require.

Under JARs, the best a Safety Pilot can do is log the time as "Supernumary". You write "SNY" in the Holders Operating Capacity column in your logbook, and the time itself does not count towards anything at all, including your total time. This is all described in LASORS.

If you are applying for JAR licenses or ratings, you must use JAR rules, regardless of where you actually did your flying.

FFF
--------------

[englishal]

Just being pedantic I know but....;)

Under the FARs a safety pilot can log P1 or P2, or nothing at all...

The safety pilot may log P1 if in IMC and holds an appropriate IR. If the "Captain" does not hold an IR then from the minute they enter IMC, he can no longer log PIC.

:D

[Aim Far]

Under FARs, a "Safety Pilot" can log time as P1. This is only applicable if the captain is wearing foggles and flying on instruments in VMC - if that's the case, both he and the person sitting next to him can log the time, and count it towards any hours that the FAA may require.

I think that under FARs both can log P1 irrespective of the weather or whether the other pilot is wearing foggles and whether its a multicrew aircraft. To do this, both pilots must have a role to play in operation of the aircraft, agreed before the flight. An example would be that one flies the other does the radios.

As stated above, these hours would not count towards a JAR qualification.

I'm sure this has been covered before.

[slim_slag]

Indeed it has Aim Far, and yet still people have very small but significant misunderstandings...

Piston Broke 2, it's just different in the USA, but it seems to work well

[englishal]

To do this, both pilots must have a role to play in operation of the aircraft, agreed before the flight
Maybe I'm being slightly pedantic ;) BUT the second pilot must be REQUIRED to log P1.

In the case of Instrument training, the second safety pilot IS required. Not to say that he can log P1 for the entire duration of the flight, only the time the other pilot it under the hood (i.e. the SP is required). Typically this means that for a 1hr instrument training flight, the safety pilot can only log 0.7 P1 .

If I go flying with my buddy, and we agree that he does the radios before the flight, and I fly, then strictly speaking he is not entitled to log any time at all, as he is not required crew member. This all changes with multi pilot aircraft of course....

[slim_slag]

Ho Hum, you are usually pretty good at this stuff englishal, must have been a bit of a heavy night :) :)

If you are instrument training, the person in the RHS has to be an instructor and so can log PIC for the whole lot because the regs say he can.

Now what's that about not being able to log PIC when you are training for your IR and from the instant you fly into a cloud....... The only time I can see that is the case is if you get all scared and suddenly stop manipulating the controls...

You can log PIC if you are sole manipulator of the controls if you are rated in the machine (because the regs say you can), if you are an instructor (because the regs say you can), and if you are responsible for the safe conduct of the flight (because that sort of makes sense, as you are in command). Nowhere does it mention weather (and don't give me any IFR stuff, you can file and fly IFR in severe clear :E )

[englishal]

Nowhere does it mention weather

Not directly, but as soon as you enter cloud, you are no longer "rated" on the aircraft (by virtue of not holding an IR) and therefore cannot log PIC.

Its the same as a ME student, not being able to log PIC during their training, as they are not "rated" to fly a ME aircraft.

Its different with say a Complex endorsement, where you are already rated to fly a SEL aircraft, so during a complex sign off you can actually log PIC even before you're signed off.

Its all words, but its something an examiner would pick up when scrutinizing your logbook during the oral

;)

[slim_slag]

Indeed it's all words, and the words making up the regulations have to be interpreted literally, unless you have an authoritative interpretation which states differently.

So

Not directly, but as soon as you enter cloud, you are no longer "rated" on the aircraft (by virtue of not holding an IR) and therefore cannot log PIC.

Can you provide such an interpretation?

[englishal]

Look in the FARs under "Logging PIC" and it will explain that you must be current and rated on the a/c.

Without an IR you are not rated to fly in cloud

QED;)

I first came across this during my IR training (and I think the oral), and never logged PIC and Actual at the same time. I'd hate for someone to go for the IR test, and get rejected by the examiner when they inspect the logbook.

I think it's also in Jack Lynch's FAA FAQ which was available on the FAA website. Its a big doc though and may take some time to find:D If i find it, I'll post it...

[slim_slag]

Ah, but it's only QED if the two statements you use to get to the QED are correct, I contend the first one is incorrect and the second only means the person logging legal PIC is to have an IR. That is not neccesarily the person manipulating the controls.

Look in the FARs under "Logging PIC" and it will explain that you must be current and rated on the a/c.

Without an IR you are not rated to fly in cloud

FAR 61.51(e)(1)(i) says you have to be rated on the machine to log PIC, it doesn't say you have to be current. You must be current to act as PIC, not log it. Nowhere does it mention weather.

FAR 61.51(g)(i) says you can log instrument time when flying solely by reference to instruments. It doesn't mention weather, in fact you could log instrument time when flying VFR over an ocean on an overcast night.

This comes up so often because under the FARS the requirements for acting as PIC (responsibility) are different from those for logging PIC (essentially what the regs let you do). Once you get the two distinctions clear in your head it's a lot simpler.

Who is Jack Lynch? If he is anything lower than chief FAA legal council he is not authoritative when it comes to something as risky as interpreting the FARS in any way other than their literal meaning.

[IRISHPILOT]

Reading the (2002 edition) of the FARs, I came across the following:

§1.1 PIC means the person who:
(1) has the final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight;
(2) has been designated as PIC before or during the flight; and
(3) holds the appropriate category, class and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight

§61.51 (e) Logging PIC flight time.
(1) A recreational, private or commercial pilot may log PIC time only for that time during which that person –
(i) is the sole manipulator of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated;
(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or
(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as PIC of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certificate of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

§91.109 (b) No person may operate a civil aircraft in simulated instrument
flight unless –
(1) The other control seat is occupied by a safety pilot who possesses at least a private pilot certificate with category and class ratings appropriate to the aircraft being flown.


A pilot can log PIC time, if more than one pilot is required under the regulations under which the flight is conducted (§61.51 (e) (1) (iii)).

Regulation §91.109 (1) requires a safety pilot to be in the second control seat in simulated instrument flight.

The pilot “under the hood” must log PIC under §61.51 (e) (1) (i), as he is “sole manipulator of the controls”.

The safety pilot must log PIC under §1.1 (1), (2) and (3), as the other pilot cannot guarantee regulations §1.1 (1). – Remember, all this is in VFR, so not the pilot manipulating the controls, but the safety pilot guarantees separation.


NB: make sure, the following is adhered to:

§61.51 (g) Logging instrument flight time.
(1) A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft soleley by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.

Hope this helps, IP

[englishal]

Sorry, its John Lynch:

John Lynch
Certification Branch, General Aviation and Commercial Division
Flight Standards Service

Regarding Simulated Instrument, from the horses mouth:-

Now in reference to your question/statement “. . . does not use any vision restriction device . . .” Per § 61.51(g)(1), it states “A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.” So, in order to log instrument flight time the pilot must be utilizing a view-limiting device. Except for when a pilot is operating an aircraft solely by reference to instruments in instrument meteorological conditions (IMC), how else could a pilot comply with § 61.51(g)(1) for logging instrument flight time [i.e., “. . . when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.”] unless the pilot was utilizing a view limiting device! So the answer is, in order to log instrument flight time for simulated instrument flight a person must be utilizing a view-limiting device. A promise by the applicant to not look outside the aircraft is not acceptable. And neither is the use of an ordinary ball cap, unless there is view limiting attachments to the bill of the cap that prevents the applicant from having visual reference outside the aircraft.

[jimbo jet set]

All,
I'll take that as a 'no' then! Thanks for all the advice,

Pist

[windy1]

May I suggest some care be taken generally with the logging of hours in the US, as there are some differences to UK practice.

For example, IIRC:

XC has to be more than 50nm. No such limit here except for the qualifying XC.?

solo is not always the same thing as PIC: solo can mean you are the only person in the urplane - FAR $61.51(d)

night landings, not just night hours are required for the application for an urmans certificate

This came as a bit of a surprise to me when I was first confronted with the FAA forms. This was a while ago - maybe things are simpler now