Callsign Abbreviation in UK

[overstress]

Forgive me if this topic has been covered ( I made a brief search to see & couldn't find anything). As I understand the rules, full c/s must be used at all times unless the ATCO abbreviates it to one of his/her choosing. The a/c can then respond with the abbreviated version, saving everyone some breath and freeing up valuable space on the freq. The French seem to be ready to do this (esp Paris)

My company and its franchises (oops - giveaway there) is very fond of such contortions as 'Whizzjet seven one Alpha November' and 'Yellow Meteor nine five Tango Romeo' (I paraphrase). These tongue-twisters are allocated seemingly without regard to their brevity. Fair enough in the interests of distinction from others, but it doesn't make them easier to say.

Could UK ATCOs advise me if I have got this wrong? It would perhaps make all our lives easier if you initiated suitable abbreviations when possible. We pilots can then respond with the abbreviation, everyone knows who they are supposed to be and we can minimise R/T. The French, as I mentioned, seem very ready to do this.

Many thanks in advance.

[This message has been edited by overstress (edited 17 November 2000).]

[get'em to heaven & back]

not known for my in-depth knowledge of the books, however;
full callsigns should be used on first contact and thereafter abbreviated callsigns may be used. however, not all callsigns can be abbreviated.
e.gs
GEHAV abbreviates to G-AV
N234XYX abbreviates to N-XYZ
but
BMA12ER remains BMA12ER for the entire flight.
there is a bit (i think) about omitting callsigns for non-executive instruction transmissions if, after the initial transmissions, the same two people carry on a conversation regarding, say, a slot time or some such.
hope that's helpful (more to the point i hope i'm not going to have my knowledge shown to be too deficient!)

[Bright-Ling]

I thought that N192JT would become N2JT.

[viva77]

Overstress
And you can adopt the american way eg helicopter GZZ or Gulfstream 36a. Not sure about Scarybus 69wx though. If each word takes 1 second to say, and we say the callsign on average 5 times, and you do to, thats an extra 10 secs of R/t time gone. Doesn't sound much but on a busy sector we've noticed it makes a difference.
PS. I'll bring it up at BHX

[This message has been edited by viva77 (edited 17 November 2000).]

[AVPIN]

Overstress

The publication that you are looking for (in the UK) is CAP 413 sect. 2.7.2.2
My copy is 1994 so it may be a bit out of date

Get 'em to heaven and back has covered it pretty well.

Callsign abbreviation may only be instigated by the ground station.
CAP 413 confirms that operating agency/flight ident must never be abbreviated i.e. SPEEDBIRD 725

[Hand Solo]

If somebody at BHX could pleeeeease get rid of birdseed 86WX and 797B they'll be doing us all a favour.

[Spotter]

Been a while since I was at Brum, is Speedbird blowjob weather still a regular? Hi to any of my former colleagues at BHX.

[overstress]

Thanks everyone, I knew there would be some informative replies on this 'mature' forum!

If you guys could bring this up at your respective meetings, we maybe can look forward to some slicker R/T. :)

[Chatterbox]

Overstress,

If ya got a company designator (such as 'birdseed') then ya callsign should NEVER be abbreviated. (yes that was a full stop)

Having said that a few aircraft have flown for years using non-standard callsigns. (G-LEAR, G- 4 eyes, and all of them strange US birds that fly with the aircraft type as the designator ['Falcon 8 100 E... etc])

Chatters

[atcomatic]

Guys,

You are right about c/s abbreviation- if you have a company designator you should never abbreviate the c/s!

With regards to the alpha numeric callsigns (eg BAW797b/BAW74PL etc..) these are used where timetable scheduling means that two(or more) similar callsigns are likely to be on the same frequency, usually in en-route sectors, at the same time in an attempt to prevent callsign confusion.

Crossair were one of the worst offenders regarding similar callsigns. CRX827, 837, 857, 867, and 887 all used to hit UK airspace at the same time in the same sector and non of the pilots bothered using their full c/s when replying to ATC instructions. I understand they spent several thousand pounds trying to sort out the problem and came up with...yes you guessed it alpha numeric callsigns!

As atcos, we can file a similar callsign report and then NATS then goes to the airline and asks them to change the callsign to one which is less likely to cause confusion.

Sorry Brum guys, but as long as the airlines keep putting on flights at the same time with similar callsigns (in your case BAW797B is so called instead of BAW1797 cos there is also BAW 1793 and at the same time), the alphanumerics are here to stay!!

[This message has been edited by atcomatic (edited 22 November 2000).]

[Evil Jethro]

I was in Delivery the other day and noticed three flight plans filed to the same destination, with diferent departure times ( soi'm pretty sure it wasn't more than one plan for the same flight) with call signs:- SAB 47V
SAB 47Y
SAB 47Z

That can't be good scheduling!