SVFR in class E airspace ?

[DB6]

Here's one for you controller chappies. I was trying to find out the correct way of doing things vis-a-vis night flying (PPL not commercial) through the Scottish TMA i.e. SVFR etc. BUT it appears that you cannot grant SVFR clearances through class E, (although A to D are OK) since the requisite separation cannot be guaranteed, or some such. So my question is: how can a PPL get through the class E at night ? And if we can't, do we really have to climb to 6000ft to get straight into the class D if the MSA won't let us through underneath the class E ?
Cheers DB6

[This message has been edited by DB6 (edited 16 November 2000).]

[Bright-Ling]

FROM PURE MEMORY.......

Rule 1 of the ANO.

"SVFR - A flight made at any time in a control zone which is Class A airspace, or in any other control zone in IMC or at night, in respect of which the ATC unit has given permission for the flight to be made in accordance with the special given instead in accordance with the IFR and in the course of which flight complies with any instructions given by that unit and remains Clear of cloud and in sight of surface"

UNFORTUNATELY I WAS ONLY TAUGHT TO REMEMBER THAT RUBBISH...NOT UNDERSTAND IT!

Anyway, as it isn't a Control Zone as such you are on to a non-starter here.

No doubt people who know more than me will reply soon!!!! (I have never even been to Scotland!!!)

[Spotter]

Here goes.

At night you can only fly IFR, except that you can fly SVFR in a Control ZONE. The class E bit near GLA is a control AREA as it doesn't begin until 2500ft. So you have to be IFR at night.

In a class E control zone you could get SVFR at night. And as it is night any traffic in there would have to be either SVFR or IFR so you would get standard separation. It is only during day that you are permitted to enter class E airspace VFR without clearance.

Do you fly out of Cumbernauld? If so please give Glasgow a call on 119.1 if you are flying under or in the class E airspace. We honestly don't mind as it makes our job of getting the big stuff into Glasgow easier if we know what you are doing.

[Spotter]

Well done Bright-Ling - beat me to it! I doubt if I know more than you (or anyone else) though.

[Flybywyre]

You don't need any clearances except the ones you would require if you where doing the trip during daylight hours.
ANY night flying of the type you are talking about is deemed SVFR regardless of airspace. So, just plan the trip as normal and request the usual clearances as and when required.
Regards
FBW

[North of the Border]

Spotter is correct. You cannot fly SVFR in a control area or TMA. Once you are clear of Glasgow or Edinburgh Control Zones at night you have to fly IFR in Scottish TMA or remain clear.

NOTB

[2 sheds]

FBW

"Any night flying....is deemed SVFR regardless of airspace"

????

[Bright-Ling]

FBW, how is that shown in ANO Rule 1 as per above???

I am now very confused.

[Flybywyre]

2 sheds.......
You missed out the salient bit "of the type you are talking about"

Bright-Ling...........
It doesn't, read the section (ANO) on night flying. (which also used to be RAC 1 - 7 UK AIP)

There is no VFR at night. Any flight operating at night that is not able to comply with IFR procedures ( e.g. pilot not IR rated ) is considered SVFR.

Regards
FBW

[Lew Ton]

"There is no VFR at night. Any flight operating at night that is not able to comply with IFR procedures ( e.g. pilot not IR rated ) is considered SVFR."

FBW, do you mean in a Control Zone?

For clarity, you have to be either IFR or VFR (Rule 22). At night, ouside a *Control Zone* you MUST be IFR (although you only need comply with the Minimum Height Rule (Rule 29) and the Quadrantal Rule above 3000ft (Rule 30)).

You can only fly Special VFR inside a Control Zone, that is where the base is Ground Level. You cannot be SVFR inside a Contral Area, or TMA, or in Glass G airspace.

[Bright-Ling]

OK, but I thought that you could be VFR at night in UNCONTROLLED Airpsace such as Class G.

(I know that this is going off the thread slightly, but I am confused!)

Help!!!!

[Warped Factor]

FBW,

"There is no VFR at night. Any flight operating at night that is not able to comply with IFR procedures ( e.g. pilot not IR rated ) is considered SVFR."

If we're talking about the UK here, you can only be SVFR in a Control Zone.

The UK has a separate night rating to allow non IR rated pilots to fly at night. Inside a CTZ, at night, such a night rated pilot can fly SVFR. As soon as they leave the CTZ they must revert to the IFR.

Again, just to make it clear, in the UK SVFR is only available inside a Control Zone.

WF.

[cossack]

As WF says you can only be SVFR inside a Control Zone. You can, however, if you are nght rated, be VMC at night ouside a Control Zone but you are technically IFR, even though you don't have an IR.

[Warped Factor]

Cossack,

Don't confuse flight met conditions, VMC/IMC, with flight rules, VFR/IFR.

At night outside a CTZ it's not a technicality, you are flying under IFR irrespective of your inflight met conditions.

Confused, you will be :)

WF.

[Flybywyre]

Also don't confuse "SVFR" with "SVFR clearance"
Because there is no such thing as VFR at night, in any airspace, a flight at night by a "PPl with night rating" is "considered" SVFR regardless of the airspace they are flying in, including the open FIR. This is not a SVFR clearance as in rule 21 airspace, if you wanted to cut the corner off, flying at night from White Waltham to Fairoaks you would still need to obtain a SVFR clearance from Heathrow ( Thames Radar 119.9 ).
SVFR at night is a technicality used to cover the fact that VFR at night is prohibited.
For further confusion a PPL does not need a night rating to fly at night. He can legaly fly at night if he does not carry any passengers. Not that anyone would...would they?
I, like everybody else will be looking at the ANO tomorrow for the definitive answer couched in the correct ( but confusing ) terminology.
See you all tomorrow
FBW

[Lew Ton]

Sorry, FBW, that's not right.

Within the UK, all flights must either be IFR or VFR, except that in Rule 21 airspace you must be IFR at all times.

At night, outside a Control Zone, you must fly according to IFR. However, inside a Control Zone you can be IFR or Special VFR. This is Rule 22.

It isn't just Rule 21 (aka Class A) airspace that you can be SVFR in, you can also be SVFR in Class D but it MUST be a Control Zone (i.e. down to ground level). You cannot be SVFR inside a Control Area with a base, nor a TMA.

It is a popular misconception that because someone doesn't have a IR they cannot fly IFR. If you are flying at night outside a Control Zone, immaterial whether you have a Night Rating, then you are IFR. Plain and simple. You have to comply with Rule 29 (Minimum Height) and Rule 30 (Quadrantal Rule) - see Rule 28.

And because 'SVFR' is inside a Control Zone then you do require 'SVFR Clearance'.


[typo corrected]


[This message has been edited by Lew Ton (edited 17 November 2000).]

[Warped Factor]

FBW,

I think you're wrong about a UK non night rated PPL being able to fly at night without passengers.

The ANO (it's on-line) offers the following....

1 The following ratings may be included in a pilot's licence granted under Part IV of this Order, and, subject to the provisions of this Order and of the licence, the inclusion of a rating in a licence shall have the consequences respectively specified as follows:

Night Rating (Aeroplanes) shall entitle the holder of a United Kingdom Private Pilot's Licence (Aeroplanes) or a United Kingdom Basic Commercial Pilot's Licence (Aeroplanes) to act as pilot in command of an aeroplane at night.

Night qualification (aeroplane) shall entitle the holder of a United Kingdom or a JAR-FCL Private Pilot Licence (Aeroplane) or a United Kingdom Basic Commercial Pilot's Licence (Aeroplanes) to act as pilot in command of an aeroplane at night.

-------

As a basic PPL myself, without a night rating, I do not believe I can fly solo at night.


I'm also not aware of "a flight at night by a "PPl with night rating" is "considered" SVFR regardless of the airspace they are flying in, including the open FIR."

In the open FIR at night it must be IFR (it cannot be "considered" anything else). If you have a reference to the contrary I'd be interested to see it.

WF.

[Warped Factor]

Here's the ANO URL...

http://www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si2000/20001562.htm


And here's the definitive bit about flying at night....


d) He shall not fly as pilot in command of such an aeroplane at night unless his licence includes a night rating (aeroplanes) or a night qualification (aeroplanes).

WF.

[DB6]

Thanks for the thoughts so far, chaps. I instruct out of Dundee and ask the question since I'm doing a lot of night training at the moment and need to be able to tell my students the right thing. The concensus seems to be that you can't go SVFR in class E, only IFR so in this context that simply means staying above MSA (as the transition alt. is 6000ft. and we'd be below that). Does that seem reasonable ? As you can see it's something of a can of worms and I couldn't find an easy answer from the regs.
Cheers DB6

[bookworm]

"The concensus seems to be that you can't go SVFR in class E, only IFR so in this context that simply means staying above MSA (as the transition alt. is 6000ft. and we'd be below that). Does that seem reasonable ? "

It's not quite that restrictive. There's an exemption from the minimum altitude rule if you are below 3000 ft amsl, clear of cloud and in sight of the surface. I believe a minimum visibility of 5 km at night has been recently added to the exemption.

So if you're clear of cloud, in good vis and below 3000 ft, there's no [/b]legal[/b] requirement even to be above the MSA. That doesn't make it smart to fly at low level of course! But if you have controlled airspace above, it may open up some otherwise unavailable routes.

[U B Nadd]

Oh dear, oh dear! Threre are some awfully muddled folk on this thread. As has been said earlier, at night you MUST fly under the Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) - you MUST also do this by day in Instrument Met Conditions (IMC). You may only fly under the Visual Flight Rules (VFR) in Visual Met Conditions (VMC), but in the UK, although you may be in VMC at night you MUST fly IFR.
In a control zone, and ONLY in a control zone, a pilot who cannot comply with the Instrument Rules for a control zone may be issueed with a Special VFR clearance in order to leave the zone. This will apply to Class A Control Zones at all times and other Class Zones at night.
To repeat, a Special VFR clearance can only be issued for flight in a control zone not an area, TMA, airway or any other controlled or uncontrolled airspace. There are no Special VFR rules as such - you don't even have to carry radio!

[cossack]

Warped Factor
I didn't think I was confused about this until I read what others thought!
In my example, I was refering to a non IR pilot, with night rating, being outside a CTR flying at night. He will be flying in VMC (because he has too) but will be IFR (as Lew Ton says).
The difference between his IFR and that of an IR rated pilot is that an IR rated pilot can be in any met conditions or airspace whereas he must be VMC and outside a Class D CTR to be within the limitations of his license.

DB6
If a pilot leaves a Class D CTR SVFR at night, we (ATC) are obliged to ask his intentions on leaving. Will he remain clear of controlled airspace (he'll still be IFR) or request an IFR join to Class A, B or E airspace? If this pilot does not have an IR they must remain outside all of the above classes of airspace (except they can rejoin a Class D CTR SVFR).

Prepares to be contradicted...

[DB6]

Cossack, now we're getting to the nub of it. To go back to my original posting, does this then mean that a PPL (without IR) cannot go through class E airspace at night - which is how I understand things - and so can only transit the Scottish TMA between Edinburgh and Glasgow CTRs by avoiding all the class E, either by nipping under it (Bookworm what exemption do you mean; if it's the SVFR exemption from the 1500 ft rule I'm aware of it but we're not on an SVFR clearance so that wouldn't apply. If it's another exemption please elucidate) or by climbing to 6000 ft and going over it to get into the class D on an SVFR clearance. It just seems absurd that you're being pushed below 2500 ft or above 6000 ft amongst all the heavies to get through legally, see what I mean ? Or am I missing something ?

[cossack]

DB6
PPL (no IR) CANNOT go through Class E at night. Nor can he climb above 6000 in the Scottish TMA Class D because it isn't a Control Zone (CTR) but Class D TMA.

South of the border, TMA tends to be Class A therefore, no IR, no entry.

The Glasgow and Edinburgh CTRs are Class D and extend from the surface to 6000. The Scottish TMA is Class D and extends from 6000 to FL245 (if I remember correctly - no map in front of me!). Since the TMA is not notified as a CTR, no SVFR is allowed.

If your PPL wanted to go from Dundee to say Carlisle at night he could either:
a) request to transit either the Edinburgh or Glasgow CTR SVFR, then stay below the Class E once through;
b) go between the two via Cumbernauld but stay below the Class E (ie below 2500); or
c) go east of Edinburgh via North Berwick and stay outwith the lateral limits of controlled airspace of any class up to FL245.

I hope thats clear.

Class E airspace really is a waste of time - no requirement for VFR by day to contact ATC and therefore it isn't a known traffic environment and so there's less protection for IFR flight in this airspace, especially with all the military activity in that part of the world. When I was at EDI we tried for years to upgrade the Class E to D and raise the base but nothing ever happened.

[DB6]

Cossack, thanks - that's what I had suspected (feared). What a pain up the arse. Class E really does seem to be a waste of space.
Cheers DB6

[cossack]

DB6
If the clouds a bit low I'd use a).
If you take option b) watch out for the masts at Shotts!!!
If it were me flying, I'd take c) and go up as high as I could to get over the river but still give EDI a courtesy call to let them know I'm there, since I'd be passing through 24 final approach at about 15-20 miles!
All the best

[DB6]

Thanks again Cossack. It's more for the teaching aspect, so that I'm telling people the right thing; as you can see it's a subject fraught with misconceptions. I could always go IFR myself but I must admit to being a bit lazy so probably would do one of the above instead. Anyway, hopefully you won't get too many Tayside aircraft getting it wrong now (unless it's me making a hash of things).
Cheers DB6

[bookworm]

Bookworm what exemption do you mean; if it's the SVFR exemption from the 1500 ft rule I'm aware of it but we're not on an SVFR clearance so that wouldn't apply. If it's another exemption please elucidate

DB6

Sorry for the lack of clarity. Rule 29.

When flying IFR (which is what you must do outside controlled airspace at night) you must be 1000 ft above the highest fixed obstacle within 5 nm unless:
...[3 other exemptions]
at an altitude not exceeding 3000 ft amsl, clear of cloud and in sight of the surface.

You originally said "IFR in this context simply means staying above MSA" and I was just pointing out that you don't have to be above MSA as long as you're clear of cloud and in sight of the surface. It doesn't hurt to be above MSA though!

[DB6]

Well I'll be buggered. Thanks very much, Bookworm. I was not aware of that exemption at all but it does make things a lot simpler. So we can whizz through underneath the TMA at a sensible height without clipping the bottom of the TMA after all.
Cheers DB6

[WonkyVectors]

Quick note to DB6 and others.......

If/when you fly near the Glasgow/Edinburgh areas (notice; not just the control zones) please give us a call. Not only may there be bigjets in your area but also police helicopters, local club a/c etc which can often be out on specific details, airtests etc. I won't make you do anything you don't want to do and i may be able to give you pertinent info on that helicopter that is about to try and imitate a ballistic missile (yeah, i know, but there is no telling what a chopper driver will try and do!!) in your 12 o'clock at two miles. The most i'll ask you to do is to bung on a squawk and if you're low level confirm that you are maintaining your own terrain sep (it gets it on the tapes!!). I do'nt know about all the tech talk above but the simple solution is ; go Ifr, talk to us, we'll help you!.