ATC overseas

[leyshon]

hello there....

I am going to be a new recruit at the college in buornemouth soon...and I know this seems strange to be wondering about the possibility of working abroad already (before I've even started the course), but I wanted to know what options could be available. I am interested in working in Spain especially (I have some basic spanish, which could be built upon). Is this at all possible?? I heard that we are to be issued with European licenses, so I guess the possibility of moving is pretty good.
Is area or approach the best way to go to work there??

any ideas anyone??
I'm a little in the dark here..

cheers,
Patrick Leyshon

[Barry Cuda]

Don't tell any instructors that that is your aim....

Almost guarenteed to lead to instructors feeling that you are wasting there time and therefore you will mysteriously fail at a very early stage:*

[PPRuNe Radar]

Do you have a degree from a Spanish educational establishment and Spanish citizenship ??

No ??

Tough luck for now then.

If your name really is Patrick Leyshon, I don't think you have done yourself any favours. :ugh:

[Jerricho]

Are you for real Patrick?

[rej]

I think most of us would prefer to be working overseas; I don't think my current employer would mind if I chose to do so (might help their manning-diet!!!).

However, I do agree with the other 3 pruners that you might have just made a gross f*** up (at best I reckon that you have just played your only joker - if they have such things at Hurn. I would suggest you make sure you have a winning hand next time you decide to show it).

Good luck anyway (and if you hear of any overseas jobs PM me please;)

[niknak]

Learn to walk before you run Patrick.

The Harmonised European ATC Licence is supposed to give anyone who is a licenced ATCO and who is also an EEC National the right to work in any other EEC country.

Fine theory, and indeed, I know that there have been a number of non UK Nationals applying for jobs in the UK, but I can't see any country going out of it's way to employ a non - national when they will almost never have a shortage of willing and suitable trainees in their own state.

[GroundBound]

Don't make the mistake that a European licence allows you to work anywhere in Europe. :suspect:

The EU is preparing a directive which defines common training standards for ATC, new ratings (comparable to ICAO), and MUTUAL recognition of other states licences.

Each state will make its own legislation and will issue its own licence. But ... it is NOT a European licence. This will probably mean that an EU state must accept the licence of another EU state as proof of training and qualification, but you will still need a licence issued by that state to operate within its jurisdiction.

The EU directive is intended to improve freedom of movement of controllers between states (through common training standards and common ratings), but there is NO SUCH THING as a European ATC licence!!!

[250 kts]

Not surprising the failure rate is so high at present if this is any indication of the present students' intelligence levels. I should think every instructor at every unit will be looking out for your name and know that as far as NATS is concerned you are a time-waster. The sooner we get some sort of bonding in place for students the better

As John McEnroe would have said "You can't be serious" !!:8 :8 :8

[ILS 119.5]

Correct, whoever said it,
Don't run before you can walk!
NATS will love you when you start at the college and you're remark is something like "I can't wait till I finish my training because I'm going to work at Palma".
There is a long way to go before the end of your time at the college, and don't forget you will not get any ratings until you validate them in the UK. You cannot just leave the UK at the end of the course.
Be thankfull that you have been accepted, I'm sure someone who has just been rejected would have given more than you just for the chance to work in the UK.
I can see you are excited about future avenues but think about passing your exams first without the arrogance of assuming you will pass. Then validate your ratings whrever you may be, and then after, say, 5 years experience explore further avenues. Not forgetting avenues will change according to whether you are area or approach, which will not be your descision.
When I worked as an OJTI in ATC the worst thing for a cadet to be was arrogant and assumption. It was the main downfall of many.

ILS 119.5

[LateLandingClearance]

As 250 says, when will NATS wake up and realise the financial implications of not having people tied in for x years with financial penalty for leaving the company before that time?

[Vlad the Impaler]

Talk about putting your head on the chopping block.!!!!!!!!!!
I remember when I went through the college one of my course colleagues made some passing reference on here to the instructors being "backstabbing bastards". He was of course hunted down and shot. I suspect patrick that if that really is your name that you will suffer the same fate.
Good luck old son....................:O
and welcome to NATS
I dont think that is what Mr Barron means by exciting destinations.......

[Vampy]

Personally I think it's pathetic that someone might be 'hunted down and shot' because they don't see themselves with NATS for their entire careers. In fact, maybe if some of you had any ambition at all you might consider a career abroad as well?!? It seems that we can all piss and moan about how terrible NATS is what with their 'destinations' rubbish/poor pay/blah blah blah, and yet if anyone has the sheer audacity to hint that in a few years time they would like to work abroad, people rise up in uproar!! I'd like to think that the instructors at the college aren't that petty anymore to be honest.......The poor lad was only asking what the chances might be in a few years time of working abroad........jeeeeeez! :mad: :*

[Jerricho]

and yet if anyone has the sheer audacity to hint that in a few years time they would like to work abroad, people rise up in uproar

Vampy, have you really considered the fact that good old Patrick hasn't even STARTED at the college yet and is making noises about working overseas. And yes, I realise it sounds a bit rich coming from me.

[Vampy]

Sorry Jerricho. You speak alot of sense 99.9% of the time but I can't see what your point is in this particular instance, whether he's started at the college or not. If you look at any graduate or school leaver going into a new job, they won't be thinking 'this will be nice for the rest of my days'. They use it as a stepping stone to fulfill whatever career ambitions they might have. Nobody in any business is naive enough to think that once they've got someone, they've got them for life. When is ATC and in particular NATS going to snap into the 21st century and realise this? Maybe NATS as a company should be asking itself WHY people want to move to Spain or New Zealand (or Canada ;) ) or wherever, rather than stay here in blighty. Patrick, if that's your real name, Good Luck to you. I applaud your honesty and I just hope the college instructors act in a professional manner whilst you're there.

[Jerricho]

Well Vampy, put it this way.

Day one sim at the college. SATC sits down next to you, ready to be introduced to the world of ATC. You know for a fact SATC wants to finish the course, validate then look elsewhere for a job. Would you feel a little used?

Day one on initial posting. The now TATC sits down next to you ready to gain all your fruitful knowledge and experience. Once again, it is known that as soon as they get a licence, they're out of there. Would you feel a little used? Sure, you're professional enough to instruct to the full extent of your OJTI ticket, but you're going to feel a little used.

Day one of newly validated ATCO. Right or wrong, newly rated ATCO realises to make him/herself more attractive to external sources they sign up for an OJTI course. Management begin to base further training allocation decisions on the premise they're going ot have another training body.

Sorry Vampy, but I can bet this would be going through a lot of peoples heads. And (sorry Patrick, just speculating here) just think, day One again at the team building exercise. People find out you're thinking this way, and are prepared to put your name to it on this forum (which is very widely read). Certainly doesn't lead to a productive co-hesive team environment.

[PPRuNe Radar]

As with anything on the Internet, peoples perceptions play a large part.

Vampy has a perception that leyshon will put in a decent shift at NATS for a few years before heading off to pastures new. I don't think anyone would have a problem with that case. The time, money, and resource spent on the young chaps career would be paid back before he left.

Others like me get the perecption that the gent would be out the door as soon as he could. So we all spend a year or more of our time and energy filling up a shortfall only for the ATCO to go again as soon as we have given him the means to do so. Given the choice, I think most of us would rather devote our resources to people who are going to contribute to easing the shortages we already have, people who want to be with NATS for a good few years developing themselves before seeking out their ambition elsewhere.

I'd propose a 5 year sliding training bond to prevent this kind of thing happening. It's common place in many airlines.

[squibbler]

Good old Patrick, I bet he's kicking himself now!! We've all dropped a massive clanger in our lives and it looks like this is Patrick's !!

What a lot of you haven't picked up on is the fact that Pat is no good to ANY overseas ATC provider without Certificates of Competence (ie validations) and TIME SERVED (or experience if you prefer!).

So he's going to have to leave the college, validate somewhere and get 4-5 yrs experience under his belt before he could in all seriousness sell himself to NAVCANADA, SERCO (Middle East) etc etc. So he's sort of bonded by default.

Perhaps this hadn't occured to him. Still, there's always changing your name by deed poll :}

How about Leighton Patrickson??

[Jerricho]

I'd propose a 5 year sliding training bond to prevent this kind of thing happening

Totally agree there PR. Infact, I believe AirServices Australia has started something along those lines (cash payout required if "return of service" not met).

[The Euronator]

Jerricho,

Eurocontrol has had it in place for years.

You know for a fact SATC wants to finish the course, validate then look elsewhere for a job. Would you feel a little used?

Sounds like someone else I know ;)


I agree with Vampy,If that is the professionalism of some instructors then everyone in there should be worried not just Mr Leyshon.

Come on guys, give him a break, not the brightest of things to do but at least he has career ambition..unlike many others I know that sit on their fat lazy asses and bitch about money all day, with no ambition in life other than to sit out waiting for their pension.

[AlJassmi]

Jerricho, that's correct about AirServices Australia having a training bond. I think it may be $14 000/year over 5 years kicking in at the first rating.

Fair enough I think - costs quite a bit to train someone. Though (as squibbler points out) would you get a job overseas with less than 5 years experience anyway?

I would hope/expect that if someone wanted to leave the industry altogether that the bond would be voided. You don't really want someone controlling who doesn't want to be there and is looking for ways to leave.

[Jerricho]

You're not directing that at me there Euro, are you now?:cool:

[The Euronator]

Jerricho,

Never mate ;)

[belk78]

Hi leyshon, you don't need the spanish citizenship, since being english (european) you are entitled to work in every country of europe, but you'll need a degree (either spanish or apply for the recognition of your degree in spain). Apart from that, the most important thing is your fluency in the spanish language, although you only have to prove it in the last part of the proccess (personal interviews). The whole proccess is different from nats. If you are interested have a look here:

http://www.aena.es/csee/Satellite?pagename=Aena%2FPage%2FAena&MO=2&SMO=1&Section=7&c=Page&cid=1077107881501


And in the best spanish atc web page:

www.limaeco.net/forum

Any doubt, do not hesitate in contact me.

[Gisajob]

The Common European ATC Licence

Patrick, you will be able to move once you are qualified, validated and have some experience under your belt.

As most Air Traffic Control Officers will know the common licence is coming. European ATCOs will be more mobile when it comes into force. This means that UK ATCOs can go and work in the sun for a few years and good English speaking Europeans can come to the UK.

Safeskys has plans to open up the market to enable all ATCOs to move freely.

We plan to manage a register of available ATCOs and match them with vacancies at Airports throughout Europe. We will collate vacancies from all European Airports and act as a central clearing house.

The initial step is to register your CV with Safeskys with your wish-list of airports and an indication of when you would like to move.

Every thing will be confidential but we will need to interview ATCOs to assess their suitability before offering them to airports.

So Patrick, when you are ready, contact Safeskys on e-mail: [email protected] or visit the website www.safeskys.co.uk.

[PPRuNe Radar]

Will this be a free service ??

[Gisajob]

Yes, Free for the ATCO.

Airports will however pay a fee, but it will be less costly and more effective than advertising throughout Europe.

We will train dedicated staff to visit Airports searching for ATC vacancies and selling the idea of an ATCO database to European Airports.

Gisajob

[GrumpyOldFart]

... UK ATCOs can go and work in the sun for a few years and good English speaking Europeans can come to the UK.

Nice-sounding theory, but one wonders whether, like most other 'benefits' of EU membership, the UK, with open arms, will result as the dumping ground for all the barely-comprehensible rejects of the Continent, while there will always be unstated (read 'fictional') reasons why the UK ATCO is not accepted by the other country.

JC

... lights blue touch paper and retires ...

[Jerricho]

will result as the dumping ground for all the barely-comprehensible rejects of the Continent

Well, they did take me after all.

[GrumpyOldFart]

Precisely. I rest my case.

:E

JC


P.S. - The MIL says she agrees with me.

[niknak]

Despite the new EEC regulation, anyone wanting to work in an EEc country and is not a citizen of that State will still have to meet minimum requirements laid down, and that will usually mean taking some, if not all of that countries ATC exams.

I suppose that the mighty Safeskys, (the UK's only "ATC provider" not to have an established contract to supply all the ATC staff to an individual airport in the UK) will be able to sort all of this out as well? :rolleyes: :p

Stick to scaring birds Richard.... :E

[flyingbricksh]

well said NN

I have heard that not only do you have to be fluent in the countrys language oaraly :O but also in the writen word!!


good job you don't nead too spell in theiss countrey

:{

[Gugaflot]

Yeah it took me ages, but, after much thought and many internal achings,

"afirm."

And they say I'm a "spelling Fascist" too.
Well, "Facist" usually...

[In the hot seat]

Oh please, get over it.

This dude enquiring about employment elsewhere is no different from millions of other kids starting out in their careers. All bright eyed and bushy tailed, wondering where their new path will lead. Fact is, you can't make a move without experience. Typically 3 years. So you'll have a guy for three years before he can start looking around.

Would you feel a little used?

Has it never happened that you go through the process of training someone only for the company to transfer said person straight after validation????

Swings and round-a-bouts people. It's the nature of the beast. Damn silly trying to hunt down individuals.;)

[Turn It Off]

Damn silly trying to hunt down individuals.

Damn Silly to offer yourself up as easy prey. Seems that quite often the trick at the college is to keep your head down and just be another face.

Surely the job of a college instructor is to ensure that people are of a standard to pass the course and that they are suitable NATS atcos, ( unless self funded)?? Kinda like a Insurance assesor, making sure a garage are doing the job properly and in the insurance companies interests.

[tobzalp]

Hi.

I work overseas.

[siam]

Surely the job of a college instructor is to ensure people are of a standard to pass the course and that they are suitable NATS ATCOS

Yeah right, provided you dont upset one of the resident dinosaur, medically challenged or reject inmates.

I found a short skirt an tight top went a long way to making you a suitable NATS ATCO.

TOPZALP - a very informative reply I'm sure that will assist many:ok:

[TrafficTraffic]

I work overseas.

I'd be interested to see the definition of work in Tobzalp's mind........;)

[Impi]

Poor thing...

You feel you work hard at Maastricht...?

[TrafficTraffic]

Yawn....

...You'll never know Impi

[tobzalp]

TrafficX2, work is anything I do that does not involve beer.

[Jerricho]

Is whiskey beer?