Twin Crashed Landed at Bankstown

[devolved]

G’day ppruners,

Just herd on the radio (702) that a twin has made a crash landing at BK at 3pm. We all know the media gets details grossly wrong. So can anyone shed anymore light on this incident?

Cheers

[Transition Layer]

The facts, nothing more, nothing less...

- BE76 from BK operator
- Fully-feathered full stop landing on 11L after several circuits on 11R
- Tower advised them to go round on short finals to which they replied "negative"
- Tower then advised them of the fact they had no wheels down
- Aircraft then diverged left of runway and gear was partly extended in the process
- Landed on grass next to parallel taxiway beside 11L
- Occupants walked away
- Airport closed for approx. 45 mins

TL

[gaunty]

TL

Correct decision under the circumstances IMHO.
Well done that man, it's a heaps better result than the usual smoking hole scenario and I hope they but the ATCO a bottle or three of fine wine.
They walked away to review prelanding checklists and do the usual rug dance with the CP I imagine :) :ok:

[jfrat]

thanks for the update TL

Jfrat

[KLN94]

They probably remembered what happen to CTT when it allegedly tried to go around on one engine...

[OzExpat]

I just hope it didn't involve Ray Clamback, even if only for his own sake. The bloke's already had enough excitement for this year!

[Starts with P]

They walked away...
That was the fastest walking I have ever seen...

[Crying Kiwi]

Ouch!

[Centaurus]

Was the prop feathered because of a real engine failure - or were they practicing bleeding for a "simulated" engine failure. If the latter then it is plainly not a good idea to feather a perfectly good engine for landing when zero thrust is the sensible an demonstrably the safest option. See CASA recommendations Flight Safety Australia July - August 2004, page 37.

Quote: "CASA does not recommend propeller feathering or fuel starvation by mixture cut or fuel valve closure in asymmetric flight training operations at low level" We can now see why...

[gaunty]

Centaurus

You are as usual correct, that is of course what should have happened and the "go round" from the tower could been safely performed without loss of face and/or damage to the aircraft.

I seem to remember a popular folk song from my yoof, it might even have been "Peter Paul and Mary".
"When will they ever learn"
:rolleyes:

[I'm gone!]

Gday,

Gaunty, I respect Centaurus opinion but , whose job is it to ensure that the aircraft is in the correct landing configuration, asymetric or not?

PIC comes to mind:confused:

The old "to Fx or not to Fx" and "to fail by Mixture cutoff or not" has been thrashed out a thousand times before, I know.

However, I do believe that there are great arguments to support both,"Mixture cuts" from an engineering point of view and "Fx'd" approaches and landings from a pilot handling point of view.

Maintain appropriate flight standards and management throughout all phases and the risk is greatly diminished, to an acceptable level I believe.

Be thorough, and by god, be vigilant.

Cheers,

I'm gone!

[Wizofoz]

I'm afraid the bit that gets me is "Gear Partialy extended".

If they were below S/E commit height with the gear up, thay really had no choice but to swallow pride and guts-land the aeroplane. Trying to get the gear down at that stage, and landing on a partially extended undercarridge was potentially leathal.

Still, it would have been an AWFUL realisation. Hope the operator takes the "Leasons learnt-let's move on" approach...

[flyingkiwi]

from my past life instructing in twins assymetric commital height assumes gear down, if it wasnt the B76 would/should have no problems climbing out especially at training type weights.

But as has been said many times we are all here by the grace of god, glad no one was hurt, have had an accident myself and know what the guys going through.

Also been on finals behind a twin commanche at ardmore when it landed wheels up, i thought it was a pretty short landing for a twin....

[Wheeler]

Hope it wasn't poor old AGG again.

[Centaurus]

I'm Gone. When you lose more lives and aircraft "training" than for the actual event, it's time to evaluate your priorities. GA has a poor record of training accidents. The RAAF learned the aymmetric lesson the hard way back in 1954 when they pranged more multi engined aircraft while training than ever happened for real. They banned all practice feathered landings and guess what? No more asymmetric accidents.

And forget the engine handling advantages that you allude to in mixture cuts. Conventional thinking is that by cutting the mixture you cushion the cylinders because the throttle is wide open. That maybe so - but a second or so later the pilot closes the throttle to identify and that puts paid to the cushioning effect, doesn't it?

[ftrplt]

Centaurus,

not quite that cut and dried for the RAAF, the B707 crash at East Sale was caused by double assymetric training.

[Dookie on Drums]

Hope it wasn't poor old AGG again.


Heard it was LBF
L ow
B udget
F lying

:}
:p

[Centaurus]

Ftrplt. Point taken. I should have clarified my post by saying RAAF crashes in accidents involving feathering of props during take off and landing training. The RAAF Department of Air banned these after three Lincoln training accidents involving practice feathered props. I saw the result of one of these and it was messy.

[Bula]

Unfortunate.. I'm glad they all walked away though... good decision by the PIC.... They kept level heads in a bad situation.


As for Australia having a poor training record I have to beg to differ. Flight training accident accont for less then 1/10 GA fatalities and accidents in Australia.... though in saying this I dont have the figure to compare training vs PVT/ Commercial ops/RPT flying hours.

[HSWL]

Love it. Duchess does a gutser with prop feathered because pilot (s) seemingly forgot to drop the dunlops. The crowd cheered and shouted "Well done, that man". What next? Pilot gets a gong in some future Honours List for excellence in airmanship, maybe?

[Dookie on Drums]

Is it true that the PIC just had their QF reference checks done that very same morning!?!

They are definately in now!!!:}

HSWL , I agree with you entirely.:ok:

[The Messiah]

From memory it was a CASA requirement to do one fully feathered approach and land as part of an endorsement?

[Kickatinalong]

Remember guys there are only two kinds of pilots those who have and those who will.

[Starts with P]

...the other 1 has a great pair which I'm looking forward 2 seeing again Unless this is some pun that I am missing, that sort of comment is uncalled for. It is one thing to make light of this accident, but don't be so low as to talk about a ladie like that.

Again, if iI have misinterpreted what you have said I aplogise.

[grrowler]

don't be so low as to talk about a ladie like that
ladie...och n i thought he be talkin about a wee lassie!:}

[Capt Fathom]

Remember guys there are only two kinds of pilots those who have and those who will.
Which category do you fit into Kickatinalong ?

[Desert Flower]

ladie...och n i thought he be talkin about a wee lassie!

grrowler you wee eejit - there are TWO d's in laddie! :)

DF.

[Crying Kiwi]

Tell us more Flying Kiwi about your mishap. Hope no-one was hurt.

[Kickatinalong]

A the moment the second, BUT it's only a blink away.:=
As for the rest of ya Getalife

[bigfella5]

Has there been any explanation as to the reasons behind this accident?.............Been hearing a few rumours however it'd be interesting to hear from someone on the know?

[Boney]

It's all over - the driver is now at Qantas

[bigfella5]

So let me get this straight............PIC.............instructor............se cond flight (fully feathered?...second lesson for student?!!)...........fully feathered approach.....(where's the need?!!)....student hurt.......instructor alledged to have hopped out of aircraft pretty damned quickly and gotten away from aircraft before turning to see if student has gotten out..........student forgotten about by all concerned.......instructor in Qantas a short time later..............I'd LOVE to see the accident report!!

[swh]

bigfella,

Been a while since I have read the twin training CAAP, from memory a demonstrate full feathering drill and engine shutdown was part of it.



:ok:

[bigfella5]

SWH,Your're right......
however at the bottom of the page in the CAAPs (5.23-1 (0), the following note applies,

Note: the case of the aircraft meeting the performance requirements of CAO 20.7.1b, or if this sequence is conducted in an approved simulator, the aircraft should be loaded to approximately 90% MAUW. If loading the aircraft is not practicable, then the use of a properly developed TRAINING POWER setting that APPROXIMATES the performance of the aircraft at MAUW may be utilised.

WARNING: Where a training power setting is used, the PIC should not hesitate to resume full power immediately SHOULD AN ACTUAL EMERGENCY OCCUR DURING TRAINING.

This comes from around flight number 6.....not 2.
Seems a little rushed don't you think, in addition to landing wheels half up?
The wisdom of performing fully shutdown assymetric circuits really has to be questioned........
In any case, I'd hope the operator has compensated the student for the flights, doctors fees etc. That'd be the RIGHT and DECENT thing to do now wouldn't it?

[Dashtrash]

A long and happy m/e instruct career did I have, but then again I didn't stumble upon my training approval in the cereal box. It's too easy for these young hopefulls eager to get a book full of m/e time to get the approval. Inexperience in asymmetric ops has killed time and time again. Oh well, her next employer is in line for something special. Flight to BKK anyone?

[VRB03KT CAVOK]

What are the rules for doing your initial twin endorsement in an a/c without unfeathering accumulators?

Can't demo the fully feathered approach too easily in one of those. :confused:

[Dashtrash]

VRB03, Its been a while but from memory I don't think CASA specified any difference for sans accumulators. Company policy though would I think usually indicate only restart on the ground without them as in flight it shakes the sh%% out the ac and can crack the mounts. Most B76 used intraining would have accumulators.

[The Messiah]

I always thought on an eng inop approach once you were assured of a landing then you lowered the gear at which point you were commited and only then.

This always gave the option of a go-around if needed.

A light Duchess on one engine is certainly capable of a safe missed approach. Granted some hard and fast rules will save the lives of some inexperienced, but I know more than one old instructor who would have gone around and then used the whole episode as a training tool about why we wait with the gear until last etc etc.

People usually crash when they find themselves in a situation they have never seen before.

Just my opinion.