EGLL, 09s, long and short

[Controller to be!]

Hello All :)

I was wondering if it is possible to have to a/c establish on the same ILS at the same time. For example at LL on 09s could you take the ones from the North for say 10miles and then the ones from the south for 14mile finals.

This way would it increase traffic capeabilites of the runway as long as seperation was maintained.

Is this in use for real or are they all vectored (expect ones like 744's) for 10mile finals and it is an interlocking effect (north, south, north, etc)?

Thanks a lot CTB!!

P.S. Sorry if this is a little hard to understand but i tried to get all my questions in at once

[Warped Factor]

CTB,

Under most circumstances we'll just be landing on one of the runways, departing off the other.

Whenever possible similar aircraft types are grouped together to follow each other down the approach as that usually gets you the minimum wake vortex or radar separation and thus the most efficient use of the runway.

Ideally the final will be out to around 15 miles from touchdown, with the aircraft joining the ILS from the north or south depending on which of the stacks they've come from and in whatever order is dictated by the paragraph above.

Does that make sense?

WF.

[Controller to be!]

Hiya WF,

Ya sotta answered my question, but will re structure it to see if i can make it make sence.

You have BAW123 coming off BNN and KLM1024 off OCK (yes he went a funny way around).

Could you have BAW123 intercepting a 13mile final from the north. And at same time have KLM1024 interscepting a 18mile final from the south.

Or would you have them both on 13 miles but BAW then KLM or visa versa. I know it is different with the traffic levels you have.

Right conclusion, with 09s in use do you take souths to 17 miles and intercept from there and norths to 13 and intercept from there. Or do you have both north and south at 13miles.

I fink that explains a little better if not i wil try again!!! :)

Bet ya wished you hadn't answered now CTB

[Aluminium Importer]

Hello.

It is slightly difficult to understand but I'll give it a go!

Aircraft normally turn on to final approach anywhere between 8 and 18 miles at Heathrow.

Although weather conditions, noise abatement, aircraft altitude and speed etc affect what length final they get, the main reason is other traffic.

We try and get just enough traffic off the four stacks to 'top up' a 15 mile final approach. With three mile spacing and one aircraft just about to touch down, a 15 mile final will result in about 6 aircraft (all using the ILS at once)on the final approach at any one time. It is also possible for aircraft to establish on the same ILS at the same time, but obviously not at the same distance!

Of course, sometimes too much traffic is brought off the stacks and the final extends slightly. Occasionally too little traffic is brought off and aircraft end up turning onto the ILS at 7 or 8 miles. The stack controllers react to the length of final and bring off more/less aircraft as appropriate.

Normally, and especially when busy, the exact landing order is established when the aircraft are as far as 200 miles away from the airport - using a long range radar display. This is normally first come first served, but played around with to minimise vortex gaps and therefore optimize the landing rate.

This means that there is no specific 'one from the south, then one from the north, south, north, south etc..' but a complete random order (maybe 5 from the north, then 2 from the south, then only one from the north, 2more from the south etc.)

Hope this answers your question(s)!

AI

[This message has been edited by Aluminium Importer (edited 19 January 2001).]

[Controller to be!]

Thanks a lot AI, you got it spot on

Cheers WF as well it was a valient effort. Will think out questions a bit more thoughly next time. Have a good night CTB :)

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

If I understand the question correctly the snwer is YES we often have more than two a/c turning on to the ILS simultaneously. Under good weather conditions and 2.5 nm spacing we can have half a dozen or more on final approach at the same time and several may be turning on together at different ranges.

When we are able to use two runways (at certain times in the early morning) we often have several a/c turning on to both runways together..

[Controller to be!]

Thats the word similtanious - yes i cant spell. Thanks a lot Mr Heathrow Director. Sounds hard but hopefully i will be doing it soon.

Thanks a lot again

CTB

[Warped Factor]

CTB,

Glad we all got there in the end :)

Just looked at your profile, SATUK, now I know why you were asking ;)

WF.

[Evil Jethro]

The way I always tell when TC take much off the stack on easterlies is the phone goes and you ask to put one on the right!

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I am so old.. and I go back so, so far that I can actually remember the days when LL TWR would accept landers on the right. Or am I having hallucinations?

[Gonzo]

HD,

Do not despair, for I am one of those who may ring you up and ask if you want to put so-and-so on the right! Basically as long as he has been allocated a vacant stand, the ground controller agrees and my deps traffic isn't too bad, then I'll ring you guys up!

Of course, the proviso 'ground controller agrees' only applies if you actually like the ground controller, otherwise you don't ask them! ;) ;) ;)

Gonzo

[Controller to be!]

Yes I am SATUK, trying to be the best ;-).

Thanks a lot for all who answered, plus the free bits added to the end. Cheers

CTB :)

[Royan]

What determines the landing R/W (L or R) at LHR ?

[Gonzo]

If we're on Westerly ops, using 27L and R, then the programme is worked out a year in advance. Due to noise affecting the residential areas on the undershoot of both 27Land R, we alternate the landing runway. Week A in the morning until 1500 local, it will be 27L for landing, then from 1500 onwards it'll be 27R landing; We swap around Sunday night/Monday morning, so Week B will be 27R landing until 1500, then 27L in the afternoon/evening.

On Easterly ops, Due to noise, the Aerodrome Authority don't like us departing of 09L, so we use 09R for deps, and 09L for landing, although if it is quiet we may offer 09R for some landing a/c to expedite their inbound taxy times, because the noise issue doesn't affect inbounds on easterlies.

Gonzo

[Royan]

Thank you very much Gonzo for answering my question