T&D Whingers

[Hounslow Harriet]

Before I start I would like to add a disclaimer to state that not all of these views are my own..... at least I don't have copyright on them! BUT. Having read so much about pay rises and the dreaded T&D scale I finally feel compelled to write something, coherent or not.

I think it was sometime in '97 or something (no doubt someone will correct me when I'm wrong ) that we had quite a big pay ballot that affected everyones pay within NATS.
In that ballot was the start of the, now infamous, T&D scale. The basic idea was that every controller, valid or not, would be better off by around £14,000 over a ten year period, (hence the various bonus payments) and thereafter would never be worse off than they would have been before.
(Sorry i need to exclude anyone who did not validate within 2 years of arrival at their unit whether it was their fault or not)
So how come now do the "I just left the college" group think they are hard done by?

Forgive me if I'm wrong but I don't remeber getting paid allowances at CATC to cover my digs. Mind you I also seem to remember that the pay wasn't that great either in Bournemouth, about half what a first year teacher got paid at the time.

Yes I know that a Valid T&D ATCO gets nowhere near the same money as the 20 year guy sat next to them but I guess the added experience is worth something afterall. My heart bleeds for you all and unsurprisingly I wonder what attracted you to this job in the first place. Free uniform? No!.... Genuinne interest in avaiation? Some!.... Cash? KER-CHING!!! The advert I saw for this job never even mentioned salary but from what I'm led to believe it's now in big letters.
What happens next?
The OJTIs get blamed for a lowering pass rate at the units. Oh sorry, we already did that.

Smell the roses everyone, if it's that bad why don't you all resign? And I don't mean 'pretend to', but if you don't have the guts then just shut up, stop moaning and do the best job you can. You never know, in the end you might just thank the 'valid ATCOs' who got you the pay rises that you've already had.
With that I shall now withdraw and watch the fireworks. :)


This statement was made without reference to R/T tapes!?!


[This message has been edited by Hounslow Harriet (edited 16 November 2000).]

[Bright-Ling]

Houndslow Harriet (Or is it Harry?)......

....you must be bored if you are up so early writing this type of thread.

It has been discussed at great length at least twice in the last 6 months, so why raise it again?

Anyway, as you obiously haven't self briefed, I will give you the salient points (which answer your questions):

1. It is the fact that VALID T&Ders, some at LHR/TC etc are doing the job for very little money. The T&D scale per se is generally OK, just that it doesn't reward one to validate early.

2. It is obviously correct for more experienced people (such as yourself?) to earn more money if you have 20 yrs experience. However, IF a valid T&Der were to have a serious 'whoops', they would be in the same amount of poo as you? If they are valid, and good enough to do the job, the pay should reflect that.

3. To harp on about not getting the same allowances 20 yrs ago is I THINK a really petty argument. Just because you endured hardship then doesn't mean that it should be forced upon others now. With respect, this smacks of 'living in the past'.

4. I agree, there is sometimes whiging by the T&D fraternity, but unlike you, they let everybody know this. Obviously, some T&Ders at your unit been vocal and have threatened to resign. You suggest that they do so. Well, perhaps you should stand up in the rest-room/tea bar and tell the T&Ders just how p***ed off you are with the whinging. No point just whinging here old boy!

5. Interestingly, I know a number of T&Ders who read/contribute here. I am confused as to why YOU see fit to raise the issue, and not them!

6. I'm sure that the T&Ders would be so very grateful for you for voting the paydeal in. I will get personnel to provide you with one (valid of course) to clean your car etc, if they are worthy!!

You say that they should wake up and smell the roses. Perhaps it is YOU that should be dragged into the 21st Century my friend.

Finally, remember one thing: These boys and girls are our future and we are all on the same side. These people are facilitating early retirements! Please don't make me work any more years than I need!!!!!

[Goldfish Watcher]

Brightling
A sensible reply to what was obviously someone blowing off a bit of steam.

Hownslow
time for a couple of cycles off and a chat with your therapist I think.

I am a T&D ATCO at LATCC. To be honest, the money isn't really that bad. The only gripe I have is that I have almost no control over getting off of this scale.

I can work harder and read my MATS pt2 till I am talking in tongues, but I'm not going to get any more training hours than the roster can handle.

It is a 2 year scale. So we are all on it for at least that - no argument there. If we validate after 3 years, we get a years back pay - certainly no argument there!!!

Meanwhile we listen to OJTIs complaining about not having enough money and contemplating a training ban - something which would prolong our time on the T&D scale.

It's about time ATCOS of all grades stopped whingeing and backstabbing. PPP is on the horizon and we need to fight hard TOGETHER or we may all end up with less money at retirement. With over 30 years to retirement, this concerns me a LOT more than short term aruments over this years pay!

GW

[Concrete]

Bright-ling and GW - nice constructive replies when this could (and maybe, just maybe was intended to) develop into a pointless slanging match.

We all agreed to T+D when we started. It only seems fair that both sides stick to the agreement. It's later developments that bother me.

On the subject of which, are any other units being visited by the "suits" to discuss the further developments?

No worse off unter the T+D agreement? Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha (PC)

[form49]

Bright-ling & GW, some very salient points, GW you are suffering the wrath of the T&D scale as it stands and will no doubt recall the rather large argument at the college between students, union reps and management over this very same issue, it has taken a year for improvements to be made to reward those T&D'ers who work hard at their units and achieve an early validation, thus relieving the training burden from the OJTI members of the watch, adding additional strength to the watch (thereby allowing extra leave), and solely carrying out the privleges of the licence for which they worked damned hard to get.
Hounslow it's probably time you dragged yourself into the real world where achievement is rewarded at all levels, you sound bitter and twisted,is it jealousy because the trainees have the bottle to do what you never could and stand up for what they believe in.
Teamwork is a vital part of being an ATCO, supporting your colleagues (ALL of your colleagues) on all issues is of vital importance especially with what is in store over the next few weks and months.
YOU are obviously a sad and lonely person, go and sit in a dark corner and maybe try some oil of evening primrose (I hear it work wonders for women who talk sh*te once a month)

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Turn left heading 230, close from the left, report established

[cleared2land 27left]

HH, hang on a minute i agree in principle with one point re:newly valid controller vs. 20 year valid controller. The guy with 20yrs experience SHOULD get paid more, but a newly VALID controller should be on the VALID controllers pay scale. Whilst the new Post Validation Point does partly brige the gap between the T&D scale and the ATCO2 payscale it is still not a FULLY VALID controllers wage. I feel that when i validate i should be on the same pay scale as the guy sat next to me, be it with 2 years or 20 years experience. I accept we will have different levels of pay but we should be on the same pay scale.

Form49 which course were you on?

[form49]

C2L,

A course a few before yours
Know a very hungry guy from your course
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Turn left heading 230, close from the left, report established

[This message has been edited by form49 (edited 15 November 2000).]

[viva77]

The T & D scale came 2 years after the Monopolies and Mergers Commission report which said that the ATCOs pay scale was too long. The result of the report was the removal of points on the scale (why they jump in the middle). Then along comes the T&D scale and puts the points back on the bottom. So we now have a scale thats the same length, but starts lower. Neat eh? And guess which side of the negotiating table suggested it?

[Hounslow Harriet]

Record straightening time,
firstly who missed the opening line?
"Before I start I would like to add a disclaimer to state that not all of these views are my own..... at least I don't have copyright on them!"

My own views are somewhat different.

There has always been a pay differential between non valid, newly valid and valid for ages controllers, it was just called the pay scale. The major change between now and then is calling the lower points a T&D scale.
No one seems to take into account that they are now better off by £1400ish every year but, only that they are on this 'T&D scale'.

My personal view is that the whole pay scale should be shorter making the top of the scale at a unit about 5 years of valid time from the bottom. Mr Purse-strings doesn't like that idea though.
Bright-ling,
Why does anyone need rewarding for validating early? I thought everyone would much rather work on their own as soon as they are up to it. And yes I am prepared to, and do, stand up with styrofoam/plastic cup/mug in hand and speak my mind.
GW,
I don't advocate a training ban, that won't help either of us anyway. You don't get trained, and I have to work harder for longer because we are short of staff. But that is not a major issue because, as you say, PPP has not gone away and needs a concerted and unified effort to fight it.

Finally I can't 'drag myself', or otherwise, into the 21st century because it doesn't start for another 6 weeks or so!!!

I shall now retire completely from this arena..... so please don't answer this post.

[Bright-Ling]

Thankyou for unilaterally closing this post - very mature. This is a forum for discussion, not a place to sound off and then sulk.

Have you really got 20 yrs experience???

Anyway, it doesn't take the brains of an ATCO with 20 yrs exp to work out that paying someone for the job they do is hugely important. The college are considering going onto shift next year to increase the output as we will be incredibly short of ATCO's in the next 2-3 years. How can you dangle the recruitment carrot of:

"Yes that's right, you are now earning £3 per day more now you are validated than when you were at the college! AND you have responsibility and and people lives to deal with"

Bargain - that'll work!!!

Anyway, I am still hugely quizzical as to why YOU raise a topic that you say is not your opinion and don't neccesarily believe in!

Why do you keep harping on about the 'good old' days??? That was when you may have had a job for life, Old school ties and all that but look in the mirror - times are a changing.

Still....only 6 weeks before you become extinct!

[Goldfish Watcher]

Starvin Marvin !!

[Bright-Ling]

GW....

....have you been watching South Park again matey????!!!!????

[Father Jack]

B-L, and GW,
good points, well made.
Speaking not as experienced as the 20 yr veteran quoted at the start of this post, but merely as someone 60% of the way, I have to agree with most of your views.

I feel that I was "deceived" at a union briefing about the T&D scale when it was first floated, when I was assured, that once someone validated, they would become an ATCO, and therefore no longer be under training and development. Whether through ignorance or deception we have the present mess, and ALL ATCOs should deal with it. These people are colleagues who have worked hard to achieve validation. (I accept that us OJTIs had a large part to play in that success, but we'd all be p**sed off with trainees dragging their heels until it was financially convenient to accept responsibility.)
Ditch the us and them attitude and look after the people who are providing our breaks, leave relief etc, whilst being paid to "train".

Concrete, I suggest you talk to colleagues north of the border within the next fortnight.

FJ

[Not Long Now]

Personally, I don't believe there should be a 'scale' at all. Once you're valid, you're doing exactly the same job as the guy next to you, taking exactly the same responsibilities for people's lives etc..

Some have said it's to prevent people leaving after getting their ticket validated, making them wait for some higher financial reward. Well it's obviously not stopping them leaving from the lack of controllers around here.

How about a training scale, and the when valid(OK do some fudge to make up for delays not your fault etc) straight on to a single wage the same as everyone else doing what you're doing?

(pregnant pause for someone to come out with that "more experience" crap?)

[WonkyVectors]

NLN your gonna love this!

Do you honestly think that ANYONE is going to accept working in an enviroment where an increase in experience and loyalty(seen from the point of view of continued service) is ignored?
I decided to do this job because i wanted to, NOT for the financial reward, however i also accept that the guy sat next to me with his increased experience and thus knoweledge should be renumerated for his greater service (ie longer) to the company.
My message to anyone on the T&D scale - and your REALLY not gonna like this - is TOUGH! This is the way it is. If you don't like it go to your union rep and start to get something done. If you didnt like the pay scales that much why did you join? Dont forget that you are getting paid a lot more than most of us when we were at college or newly posted - and, this will throw another spanner in the works - the courses now are much easier (I know ive done both pre and post Rgat) you even get an automatic recourse!!
Well, i think ive pissed enough people off for one night. Feel free to ignore my rantings!!!!!!!!!!!!

Goodnight all!!!!!!!!!!!

[cxi]

wonky vectors your name sums you up. not long now, I totally agree anyone doing the job should get the same rate of pay. If management think that an atco2 is worth 50,000 a year then they think all atco2s are worth 50,000 and that is the rate for the job not the pathetic 20 to 30,000 that they get at the beginning of the scale. After all if anything goes wrong you are still the only one responsible, not the very highly paid fifty year old beside you saying "I didn't think that would work..."

[250 kts]

One slight problem here- NATS can't afford to pay everyone the same salary unless the top of the scale was ,say, only £40k. Now which of the scales would you prefer?- what we've got now I bet.
But yes,I agree with WV the folks on the T&D should be a bit more long term in their views. Improvements do take a long time to achieve. Lots of jobs going at other centres /airports around the world. But oh yes , one slight problem, you probably don't have the EXPERIENCE to go for them.
Just out of interest cxi how long should the scale be?

[form49]

As in any job, the more experienced you are the greater the financial rewards should be.
However, we do a job that is different from the norm, it all boils down to RESPONSIBILITY.
Those ATCO's on T&D who have achieved a validation are just as responsible and accountable as those who have 20yrs in the job and should therefore be paid accordingly.
Being able to work on your own licence and the inherent responsibilities ahould be rewarded, we all do the same job, so why should there be a Training and Development pay scale.
Once you're valid, your training stops, that puts an end to the trainining issue.
Development is a difficult one, no twodays are the same in this job, so we are all continually developing our skills and adapting to meet the requirements of the job.
I would argue that development is an ongoing issue throughout the career of an ATCO.
We should all be paid for the job we do. If you are valid then you should be paid on the ATCO scale and not be limited to a scale which does not award the achievements you have made.
T&D is a joke, the sooner it is sorted out, the better.
Morale is at an all time low at the moment, with the impending threat of PPP.
A happy ATCO is a productive ATCO and will work harder to push the traffic.
An unhappy ATCO is one who will tell a/c to take up the hold and wait a while until they can be bothered to do something with them.

Safety is our prime responsibility, none of us will knowingly doanything to compromise that, but its about time things changed for the better.


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Turn left heading 230, close from the left, report established

[Not Long Now]

Wonky, increase in "experience and 'loyalty'" would not have been ignored, you'd have had 10 years taking in £50k instead of 1 year. That sounds a lot more rewarding than 10 years to reach £40k.

[Not Long Now]

(oops finger trouble)
...and just to make myself really popular, "forgive me father, for I applied for this job after seeing the final salary, time off etc, and did lie a lot in my interview about that 'always interested in aviation' stuff..."

I know there are some people who think they'd do this job for free 'cos they love it so, and don't get me wrong, I really enjoy it too, but when push comes to mortgage payment, show me the money.

[VectorLine]

Wonky Donkey

I wish you and your ilk would stop harking back to "When I were a lad".

We are discussing currnet issues. Not looking back to days when the profession was full of spotters and Met. geeks!

[Spotter]

"Full of spotters & met geeks"...

Ahh those were the days I remember it well. The staff car park full of rusty Ford Cortinas littered with chip wrappers.

None of your fancy designer briefcases then. BEA flightbags stuffed with sandwiches binoculars & notebooks. Of course there was always some flash git who had a pan am one.

Having to search for 20 minutes to find your coat at the end of shift after a non spotter had rearranged all the identical anoraks on different coat pegs.

As for the met geeks. Without them we were nothing. They made us appear almost normal by comparison.

Spotters are still here although some are ex-spotters these days. I think it will be a sad day if ATC ever becomes the exclusive preserve of "future managers" whose only interest in the job is the money.

As for the met geeks, I don't think there's any question that the quality of met observation is not up to the same standard as than before. And I think that the ATSA's who had the task forced upon them would agree.

There are so many whose own insecurity forces them to dismiss genuine enthusiasm in whatever field as being sad, unless it involves sport or getting very drunk. Well it's your loss. Pity you couldn't find a job doing something you liked as much.

"light blue touch paper & retire...."

[Big Nose1]

Appologies to those in the ATCO 3 world but the figures I use are for my unit. NATS has only a certain pot of money for our pay, and we have 2 options

1 After validation we progress to a pay scale as current, approx 30000 to 55000

or

2 We all go to a single point of about 40000

Think of spending your entire career relying on annual pay rise for increase and retiring on a % of 40000 as against retiring on a % of 55000, and annual increments for the first 10 years or so. Too many ATCO`s suffer from the same disease as our management, ie look no further than the end of your nose and sod what happens tommorrow.

[HounslowHarry]

Well said BN1!

[Chatterbox]

BN1 I gotta agree, and

Anyone who thinks that;
"once you're valid your training stops"
is gonna realise one day that may not be quite true!
If ya don't realise that then, I'm sorry but, I don't really want ya sat in the seat next to me. Sorry if that offends anyone but I'm afraid that's the way I feel.
I think you will find that everyone will agree that your training never really stops. Unless of course you are at a unit when they won't let you validate until you've seen everything that can possibly go wrong. Please speak up all you 'UTOPIA' valid controllers that can contradict that!!


sorry
Chatters

[BuzzLightyear]

Spotter

Thank god I'm not the only one who has noticed that the majority of "young bloods" seem to be on the management express. Gets that you can't wander round my unit without tripping over one of them with a bunch of papers in his hand.

We probably should be nicer to them, as the minute they are off the T&D scale a lot of them are applying for management positions.

To all of you who admit that money had a big part in you applying I salute you...I admire someone so mercenary that they can do this job only for love of cash! Me, I am one of the increasingly rare breed who do it because, and yes I know it is sad, I enjoy speaking to the planes. I don't quite understand those who put themselves through CATC and all the nausea afterwards just to break into management. Is it because they get even more money and don't have to worry about doing the job they trained for anymore?

Support your friendly T&Der, you never know in 2 years time he could be your boss!!

(Puts on tin hat to protect from flak)

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To infinity and beyond

[Dan Dare]

There are cases now where older ATCOs are being posted out because they are too expensive when their jobs can be done by T&Ds!

T&D pay scale for a valid ATCO is unacceptable and lower than the starting salary at many small GA aerodromes (many FISOs earn more than a valid T&D ATCO).

The big picture = agree cheep ATCOs wages then suffer the consequences of the availability of underpaid staff!