What do you need to fly a jet?

[FullyFlapped]

Damn silly question, I'm sure, but ... If the day ever comes when the mem'sahib pulls her finger out and finally gets around to winning the largest roll-over ever in lotto history, and then sportingly offers me a choice of Citation or Gulfstream, will I be able to poll up at Pete's Perfect Planes clutching a bag of used readies ... and my PPL ?

Or would I need to (a) upgrade to ATPL or (b) employ stunning blonde ATPL ?

FF :ok:

[Saab Dastard]

Giving this question the serious thought that it obviously deserves, I would suggest that to fly a jet, youwould need a fuselage of some sort, most definitely wings, perhaps a tailplane, various control surfaces and a cockpit with instruments etc. etc. Otherwise your jet won't fly.

You could choose the Thrust SSC approach and eschew the wings in favour of wheels (penny-pinching, I always thought) and settle for alarmingly fast taxiing of your jet, but the smart money is definitely on adding wings.

But if you want to fly a jet aircraft, you would need to have a PPL, instrument rating, multi-engine rating, get your type rating and satisfy any training requirement for multi-crew operations if the aircraft requires it. You would not have to get a CPL, let alone an ATPL, although in satifying all the above, you would almost certainly satisfy the requirment for a CPL.

People have flown Lear Jets on PPLs - and several Lears are certified for single pilot operation.

[Chilli Monster]

Multi engine rating

1000 hours (unless you can convince the insurance company otherwise)

A type rating course (Probably at Flight Safety or Simuflite)

6 take offs and landings with a Type Rating Examiner.

An instrument rating (fuel burn alone at low level requires this if you actually want to go places).

Forget the Gulfstream - it's two crew. You can get a single pilot waiver on the Citation (500,550 & 560 models) but the insurance requirements are even higher. (Approx 2500 hours)

[Keef]

You will almost certainly need differences training for pressurisation, retractable, etc.

If your jet is above 12,500 lbs (or the metric equivalent), you'll need the relevant licence (PPL/C it was in my day, but may be different now) and a type rating for the Citation or whatever.

You might also find it's a two-crew aircraft, in which case you'll need all that MCC stuff (not the cricket, the other one) and a friend who wants to play the same game.

Probably be a good idea to have an IR, too, while you're at it.

[NZLeardriver]

Saab

I didnt think that any Lears made it thru the process to be single pilot certified.

Some Citations are tho.

nz

[TheKentishFledgling]

So the IR isn't needed to be able to fly my jet? (my hypothetical jet, for the record :()

tKF

[expedite_climb]

TKF - You only need an IR for the same reason you would in any other a/c; to fly airways / class A or for poor weather.

Its just you don't wont to be buzzing around at 2400 below the london tma in a jet.......

[Warped Factor]

Its just you don't wont to be buzzing around at 2400 below the london tma in a jet.......

You'd be surprised at how many do when re-positioning between the various London area airfields....

[slim_slag]

Doesn't a turbine type rating check ride require you to demonstrate instrument proficiency to standards which would get you an IR? No doubt this is extremely complex in some jurisdictions, and not in others.

[Flyin'Dutch']

ATPL; IR; Type rating; lots of dosh

[Chilli Monster]

It doesn't need an ATPL - just the checkride is to ATP standards.

Want to join me next year FD? ;)

[IO540]

I know someone who has done this, and while one doesn't need an IR legally, nobody will do the type rating unless you have an IR. They just say that you need an IR to demonstrate the level of technical expertise that's needed for the TR.

[FullyFlapped]

Hmm ... interesting stuff - thanks guys !

FF :ok:

[Speed Twelve]

Operating a corporate jet without an IR would be about as much use as a chocolate watch!

I was lucky enough to work as a Citationjet co-pilot as my first commercial job after several years instructing. Went on the thing alongside a 17000 hour skipper, I had nearly 2000 hours, fr. ATPL and 18 years experience as a pilot, and I was right with it until I let the brakes off!

It's a pretty big leap up from a piston twin or 'MCC course' Beech 200 sim. The CJ 'only' cruises at M .65 or so, up to FL410, but it's pretty easy to get yourself maxed-out when you've got 500 kts groundspeed, you're heading for TOD and you're behind the aeroplane.

Anyone contemplating flying one of these single-crew on a PPL and surviving gets my vote, for ball$ at least! :)

ST

[Evil J]

I agree, not having an IR will seriously lilmit the benefit of having a jet as, outside controlled airpsace in the UK you are limited to 250 knots below FL100 (unless exempted by the CAA)

[Flyin'Dutch']

Chilli

I was under the impression that in JAR land you need to have an ATPL to cover the High Performance Aeroplane requirement as there is no HPA material/test.

I have been looking into this a bit closer just in case I have move into that direction . (Would only be a King Air not a propa jet in any case)

[wbryce]

I agree, not having an IR will seriously lilmit the benefit of having a jet as, outside controlled airpsace in the UK you are limited to 250 knots below FL100 (unless exempted by the CAA)

What about those guys that own a JP, are those restricted to 250kts?

[Flyin'Dutch']

wbryce,

You are entirely correct to remind us of those jets.

Doh, thought that this referred to jets as in business jets etc.

You can fly JPs on a PPL after you have had additional training according to the CAA syllabus (the number of which I do not know of the top of my head!)

[Evil J]

wbryce

unless they have a CAA exemption, yes they are limited to 250 knots below 100 - some ex military jets do have exemptions on safety grounds (usually the swept wing types Hunters etc) but I think the CAA usually makes conditions like must be under Radar Service etc etc

Now where did leave my L39...

Chilli - is there not a "jet class rating" like there is for turbo props?? Plenty of PPL's are flying jets so there nust be some system....

[Chilli Monster]

Evil JChilli - is there not a "jet class rating" like there is for turbo props?? Plenty of PPL's are flying jets so there nust be some system....
Under JAR - pass. All my dealings have been with aircraft that require individual type ratings like the types the original poster suggested. The best person to speak to would be a certain Yak driver next time you're at the club (flies a JP). Another member there (C310) used to own an L29 - he'd know.

FDI was under the impression that in JAR land you need to have an ATPL to cover the High Performance Aeroplane requirement as there is no HPA material/test.
JAR land schmar land ;) I've not used that particular licence for 7 months now :)

[mutt]

I think that there are two issues here.... legally and realistically..

Legally, people have flown B747s on a PPL.... (FAA)

Realisitically....take yourself off to a nice jet simulator and see how quickly you DIE....................

NOTHING REPLACES TRAINING.......

Mutt.

[wbryce]

FD,

I was asking if the JPs where restricted to the same 250kts below FL10 restriction ;)

[Evil J]

I don't think you can fly the big stuff on a PPL in the UK (can't vouch for the US), isn't there a weight restriction on the PPL (5700 kg rings a bell)???

[Chilli Monster]

I was asking if the JPs where restricted to the same 250kts below FL100 restriction
Yes they are - no exceptions (and don't let anyone BS you by telling you otherwise!)
I don't think you can fly the big stuff on a PPL in the UK (can't vouch for the US), isn't there a weight restriction on the PPL (5700 kg rings a bell)???
Yes - 5700Kg is what it says on mine, but remember that's a multi engine piston rating. Turbine aircraft (all types) come under type specific training / rating under JAR. However, certain marks of Citation, under private category operations, have a single pilot waiver that can be obtained by passing an approved course for single pilot ops. Public transport / AOC operations however the II/Bravo (6200Kg) upwards, are two crew operation.

Beech 200 King Air weighs in at 5700Kg, so is the heaviest aircraft that can be flown single crew public transport.

The rules for the FAA are much more easily defined. For private (pt 91) ops a type rating is required for any aircraft over 12,500 lbs MTOW and all turbojet aircraft. Provided you had a multi engine rating therefore and had a high altitude endorsement you could jump into any of the King Air 90/100/200 series without any training (though you'd be nuts to do so). Commercial carrier however (pt 121/135) do require type training and ratings.

[slim_slag]

Commercial carrier however (pt 135) do require type training and ratings.

Part 135 (air taxi, fire bombing, and the like) require a CPL to be in command, and it looks like having an ATP before you can be in command is coming down the pike.

Part 121 (scheduled airline service etc) require ATP before you can be in command, CPL as first officer.

So 135/121 ops are more related to what you are doing, not the plane in which you are doing it. You can fly a 747 LAX-JFK with passengers and be part 121, then the same crew can turn around and fly it back without passengers and it will be part 91.

The vast majority of flights in the US are under Part 91(general aviation), and a significant part of those are jets.

[Charlie Zulu]

Chilli Monster,

I have been thinking about what you said over the radio a few days ago and have to say I am tempted (very much) to join you for the steam-driven-instrumentation-slowtation-type-rating late next year.

However I first have to try and pass my JAA ATPLs.

Just a quick question. Is the school you are going to attend JAR approved as well as FAA approved? If so then I'll be able to add the Citation Type Rating to both my FAA CPL/IR (which I have already) and the JAA CPL/IR (when I eventually obtain one).

Best wishes,

Charlie Zulu.

[englishal]

Can I come for my type rating too....;)

While pulling the Citation out of the hangar the other day to fuel it up, I came to the conclusion that I would quite like the idea of hanging out with rich people. In the owners hangar he had (in addition to the Citation):

Classic Ferrari
Brand new Ferrari
Jet Ranger (with seat back DVD!)
Lotus racing car (classic)
Maclaren racing car (new)
couple of Duccati's
couple of classic merc two seaters

Unfortunately the T28 doesn't fit in as well......

And maybe a G3 is next.....
:D

[Chilli Monster]

Yes - did like the cars, spent a bit of time drooling over them. Has he been cleared to fly the Jetranger solo yet - or is he still learning? :)

Also - did you get a ride in the Citation? (I did - not as nice inside as my usual C550 I thought ;) )

[englishal]

I did - not as nice inside as my usual C550 I thought
Poser ;)

[MLS-12D]

This article (http://www.avbuyer.com/Editorial/Light%20Jets%20Sep02.asp) may be of some interest.