Military to civil conversion

[Crabo]

I am a military controller (several airfield tours, area radar and instructor) who is considering leaving the service, and keen to get more info on moving into civilian ATC. However, I would like to have some say in where I work - Ive had enough of being moved every three years! Are there any ex military ATCOs who have any good advice? Also would appreciate any comments suggestions from civil ATCOs about the best way to go about moving across.

[Dunx]

Crabo,

I am ex military going through the NATS college at the moment....there are a few of us in the sytstem! Email me with a few details and I will be happy to offer what I can, coupled with some advice from the others at the college just now!

It is not as bad as you may think, but there again the grass is always greener on the other side until a big Alsation comes along and does a big **** on it! :)

[BuzzLightyear]

For what its worth I think its ridiculous the way that NATS treats you guys, what with the bond to make sure you can pay back your training if you have a bit of trouble!! They should take you on as student ATCOs and be done with it.

As a civvy ATCO I have worked beside a lot of people who would have made damn fine civil controllers, with a lot of experience, being turned down because of their age.

I know that there was once a quick conversion course to help you transfer over the great divide, and with the current shortages at some units, I wonder why the powers that be don't re-instate it. Maybe someone with more brains than I can explain it?

Don't worry abouyt signing for the mobile contract with NATS if they offer you a job, the only way you will get posted is if you join a very long queue at most units!! :)

------------------
To infinity and beyond

[Bright-Ling]

I know of at least one person who left the RAF, did the whole course and obviously wasn't bonded.

However, he had to go through the whole recruitment process.

6 of one, half a dozen really.

[Bright-Ling]

....and he had to do the whole 12 months (Twr & App) as opposed to doing the APC (Assessemnt of Prior Competence) and a total of 6 months.

You actually get less choice on the posting if you join on a "Cadetship", as most negotiate where they will be posted during the initial application.

Let me know if you want more info.

[Goldfish Watcher]

My flatmate, left the RAF and joined NATS as a student ATCO. He is now area control in TC at LATCC and happy.

Why shouldn't those who take the direct entry be bonded? - they bypass ADM1 and Radar Skills and go straight to ATCO 2/3 scale on leaving the college.

If you go aerodrome then you will have a chance to express your preference. But I know at least on guy who asked for a London Airport and got sent to Aberdeen.

I'm Area Control, wanted Scottish and am at LATCC!


[This message has been edited by Goldfish Watcher (edited 10 November 2000).]

[Crabo]

Thanks for all the posts. I certainly dont have a problem with being bonded as long as I could have an input into where I would eventually work (subject to making the grade of course)- Im not keen on being sent to Aberdeen!

It would be good to hear more about the APC route - like most military controllers, I only have a vague idea of what this involves - what is the chance of success? cost? what prior work can I do before turning up? etc. Also, does anybody have a good point of contact for an informal chat with the management and are they interested in talking to people like me? - I would want to know whether the APC route was open BEFORE resigning from the military - it is now only a 1 year wait as opposed to the 3 years that you used to have to wait after resigning.

[Dunx]

The APC route is open to you to undertake from the moment you begin your spell of resettlement/terminal leave etc. Obviously it pays to apply for a course and up to date details well in advance thereby having some say in when you start the course :)

NATS are generally good in that they will make a deal whereby you pay for your Aerodrome course, then they will sponsor you through the Approach Radar or Area course, dpending on what you want to do. You will normally be able to state a preference as to where you would like to be posted, and if you accept, this will be written into the 'contract' and you will be one of the only students to know where they are to be posted for sure! Your NATS employment doesn't actually start until you arrive at your unit after completing CATC, so try and arrange to do as much of your training during resettlement/terminal leave!

Unfortunately, Aberdeen is a big bug bear at CATC just now as they have one of the biggest requirements for controllers. However they can only take so many TATC's at any one time, and NATS are open to a reasonable amount of negotiation. *Waits for influx of backlash*

The best guy to contact to get more info I guess would be

Student Liasion Officer
National Air Traffic Services Ltd
College of Air Traffic Control
Bournemouth International Airport
CHRISTCHURCH
Dorset
BH23 6DF

Tel 01202 472323

He should have most of the up to date details on costs and availability.

As for work to prepare yourself...apart from day to day work, there is not a lot you can do as "Seaton International" is a law unto itself and tends to be a little unrealistic in order to get the training objectives in!. Perhaps find a copy of Manual Of Air Traffic Services Pt 1 or the CAA RT Handbook just to get used to the civvy phraseology. This is one of the biggest hurdles to overcome as an ex military controller. Civil phraseology seems quite verbose by comparison.

Hope this helps :)

[This message has been edited by Dunx (edited 10 November 2000).]

[Bright-Ling]

Dunx.......top answer!

The only bit I would say is that Ruth Webb is the person to speak to......but maybe phoning the SLO will wake him up!!!

(Only joking - he is an ex Fish Head!)

With regards to the APC, I think I am right in saying that it is a basic test. You get a few days rostered sim time to practice using strips in Tower as opposed to a pin board, and then a medium intensity test to get onto Aerodrome 2 (3 Months) with the current course. You will also get an exam on the ANO (Air Navigation Order) but rocket science it ain't! (But it IS boring)

My advice would be to go for it.

There will be a massive shortfall nationally of controllers in the next couple of years so get in now!!! (Esp before PPP!)

As I said, post an e-mail and I'm sure many will write and give you their opinion.

[x-border]

Gents

I am in a similar position to Crabo, and am going to Heathrow for an interview before Crimbo. Dunx - the info you've supplied is really useful. Can anybody expand more on the following:

1. Realistically, what airports could one negotiate for? (e.g. I hear that it is incredibly hard to get into Manchester)

2. Dunx - you say that NATS employment does not start until you finish training at the College. Is this a hard and fast rule, or is this negotiable?

3. How much is the Aerodrome Course, and do you have to pay for the APC?

4. Once you are at an airport and endorsed, how easy is would it be to move after a reasonable (say 4-5 year) period?

Crabo - I will e-mail you with my detals. Give me a call at work sometime to chat about things.

[Dunx]

x-border,

Glad to see another fellow crawling out of the woodwork! :)

The ADC Course/APC costs around £6000-£6500, but I suggest you contact the college direct (see above details) for up to date info.

Your NATS employment doesn't start until you get to your unit as it is a sponsorship scheme, and they aint gonna pay you a wage until they are sure you are gonna benefit the company.(ie pass the courses). Remember you have a lot of "developed habits" as an experienced military controller that they have to kick out of you at CATC!

The only way to bypass this is to do the full 12/18 month course as a Student ATCO. Doing this means you will only go onto the Training and Development (T & D) pay scale as opposed to going straight to the ATCO 2/3 scale after the APC route.

Manchester is virtually a no-no for NATS first tourists as the waiting list for existing NATS employees to go there is longer than you would care to imagine. (So I believe)

Your first posting that you negotiate during your initial selection/interviews will try to take into account any extenuating circumstances, (wife/sprogs/parents in ill health etc) but after you are posted and validated, (as it is called in civvyish) you are in the same melting pot as all other NATS employees. Generally, you will not be moved unless you specifically request it AND have good reason, or the company require you to be somewheres else!

Phew! My keyboard aint used to all this work....better go have a beer!

Cheers. :)

Oh btw, Aberdeen is dead easy to negotiate for!!!!!!!

---------------------------------------------
Speedbird 123 Contact Seaton Radar on 124.37.......ahhhh sh*t!


[This message has been edited by Dunx (edited 16 November 2000).]

[x-border]

Dunx

Thanks for all that buddy, most useful.

Anybody brief me on the good/bad points of Aberdeen - other than its in Jock-land (only joking!!).

Whats the starting pay for ATCO 2/3 ?

[This message has been edited by x-border (edited 16 November 2000).]

[Talkterjellywopters]

X-Border. I'm one of the Training and Ops Managers at Aberdeen. Either drop me an E mail or phone me at work and I'll put you in touch with some of the ex-mil guys who are already working here. Or better still, you are more than welcome to visit us and make up your own mind about what sort of place it is to live and work.

I know that I'm biased, but I like Aberdeen. Although we've got our problems, what Unit doesn't. The work is varied, as well as TWR & APR for Aberdeen we also do APR for Sumburgh and have 6 Offshore Radar and 1 Offshore Procedural sectors (although we are in the middle of resectorising). We have about 66 ATCOs and 17 ATSAs, presently working on a 3 Watch system but (hopefully) by early next year the ATCOs will be changing to 5 Watch. The guys and gals are a very sociable bunch and there's hardly a week goes by without some sort of event being organised.

As far a quality of life is concerned (and this is obviously a matter of personal preference), I can't think of anywhere to beat the place. Yes it's a bit cooler than the south of Englandshire, but the east coast of Scotland is generally dry and contrary to rumour we don't spend half of the year digging our way through the snow. The city is compact but has everything in it that you could want. Aberdeen has enjoyed a relatively stable economy and so doesn't suffer (to the same degree)some of the crime/violence problems of other cities. House prices vary greatly according to whereabouts you look but on average the're reasonable and in the country areas, some would say, downright cheap. The area in general is great, some stunning scenery, not too crowded and every out-door activity you can think of.

I'm on leave for a few days but if you phone (01224)727160 that will take you to the Watch Managers desk. Ask for me, if I'm not there leave you're number and I'll call you back.

[x-border]

Talkterjellywopters

Thanks for the offer. I have spoken to one of the Aberdeen Watch Managers in the past few days (was it you?), and I was fishing a little to see what thoughts others had of the place.

I have to say, from what I have heard, it sounds a good place to be - somewhere that I would not be dissapointed to go - and you guys always sound happy when I speak to you.

I go for interview in the next few weeks, and, if I am acceptable, and Aberdeen is one of (or the only!) choice, then I will certainly give you a call. Many thanks for the info.

[Crabo]

Thanks for all the info, had problems with my username/profile so been unable to reply for some time. E-mail contact is now on my profile.

I definatley aim to try the APC route at some time, the question is whether to leave the Service early and forsake some of the pension or wait for another 7 years until my time is up.

X-Border, give me a call and let me know how your interview goes - good luck!

Any other mil ATCOs out there with any views or plans on the future?

[3rd Runway]

OK. Early/mid 30's, various airfields, area radar, instructor and examiner. What are my options?

[x-border]

3rd Runway

What are my options? Thats the big question to which nobody seems to have a comprehensive answer. Do you not think that in todays era of IIP and career management, that the lack of information that could be made available to mil controllers by Innsworth or STC is somewhat lacking?

From my perspective, I think that more assistance could be given to those wishing to continue their career down the civil route - particularly those who have given a good number of years to the Service.

Is there any comment from STC or Innsworth? How about producing a package to help and guide mil controllers in making this transition?

[x-border]

3rd Runway

Just letting off a bit of steam above!

The options that I have looked at so far are:

1. Entry into NATS through the Cadetship route. This entails doing the full NATS course, being paid as a cadet whilst on the course, and being streamed for terminal or area part way through the radar course. At the end of the course I believe you are effectively told where yuou are posted to. This route costs you nothing, however, pay wise, you are starting from the bottom.

2. Entry into NATS via the APC (Assessment of Previous Competence) route. You take an aerodrome and radar assessment (after a short amount of guidance/training) to see if your skills are high enough to miss the first part of the aerodrome and radar courses. As an ex-mil controller you are expected to pay an amount towards the course (see earlier posts), and you do not get paid whilst on the course. However, the course is only about 6 months long, and you go straight on to the ATCO 2/3 pay scale on completion. You normally (always?) go to an airfield, and you will know where you are posted to at the end of the course, as you will negotiate this prior to the course commencing. Personally, I think this is the better option - even though you have to live off your fat for a few months.

3. Convince an airfield to sponsor you through the courses - congratulations if you can manage it. The courses are expensive, and if an airfield has no guarantee that you will pass, it would normally look to recruit already qualified controllers (cheaper and safer option).

4. Speak to SERCO who run the other ATC college in Bath. They may part sponsor you through the courses (depending on your negotiating skills you could end up spending around 20K), and will bond you to their company for a period afterwards. Again, they have control over where you are sent, though you will know this before you start the course. SERCO courses get booked up well in advance, so speak to them early.

Anybody - this is only my experience so far. Please correct me where I have got the wrong impression, or send more info if you have it.

3rd Runway - if you want to speak in more detail - contacts names etc., send me an e-mail, in confidence, and I'll give you a call.

Good luck.

[Chilli Monster]

I look back and realise what a risk it was now, but 5 years ago during the great redundancy dish out I took the money and ran. Military Assistant, wanted to be an ATCO so paid SERCO and did an ADC course self sponsored. I will never forget going into the final milestone thinking "blow this, blow £12K, no idea what I will do http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif"

But the gamble paid off. Got a Tower only job not long after and am off to Bailbrook spending SERCO's money on the APP and RAD in January.

If you got the cajones, sometimes it's worth the risk :)

[Bright-Ling]

X-Border,

but don't forget that if you go for option 1, you will have to apply with the rest of the world!! You have to pass all the aptitude tests, interviews etc. It doesn't matter if you were an ex-military controller and competition is tough (only 36 studes per intake every quarter, and upto 3000 apply over the same period!)

Also, it took 12 months from my orginal application to joining the company, but most wait 6 months. You will also go on the T&D scale ex-college.

I would suggest that you aim for the APC route, start it during re-settlement and accept being poor for 3-4 months!! At least you'll be straight out on the ATCO2/3 scale as you say.

Good luck, either way!

[x-border]

Bright-Ling

Thanks for you encouragement. I agree that it is probably easier to get into NATS via the APC route for ex-military controllers.

However, entry through the APC route is quite expensive. Firstly you have the 6K (aprox) cost towards the Aerodrome 2 Course. If you then add the amount of money lost through not working for 6 months (probably about 15-16K), and the cost of accommodation and food for 6 months (about another 4K), then this option costs around £26,000 - which is, in my books, a big amount of money!

Whilst you may be on T&D pay (about 22-23K with accommodation allowances) whilst going through the student route, and, whilst you will not immediately go onto the ATCO3 scale once completing the course, financially, it may be easier to go via this route. You obviously need to weigh up one against the other and decide which one is best for you.

[Bright-Ling]

X,

have e-mailed you with more thoughts. Don't forget though that the APC route is slightly less than 6 months and you could do some (a third?) as part of your re-settlement)

Come on in...the water's lovely!!!!!