OK, so what does PPR REALLY mean???

[Whirlybird]

I can almost hear the gasps of horror...Whirly, you don't know, and you an instructor; what is the GA world coming to? :eek:

OK, so you look in the VFR Flight Guide, and almost every airfield says PPR. So, Prior Permission Required. Simply, isn't it?

Well, no, it's not. Some say PPR by telephone. Some say PPR by telephone or radio. Well now, I'm not likely to land without calling up on the radio, am I? And I've never flown in anywhere non-radio, but if I did, I think I'd call up first. Wouldn't anyone...pilots who fly aircraft without radios, please tell me.

So, I phone up. It's good practice anyway - you find out if for some reason they're closed, or if there's some unforecast fog around, for instance. Sometimes you're told it's OK, and asked for your callsign, other times told to just call on the radio, other times they seem absolutely amazed that you've called at all!

Then comes the day you call up, and get no reply. So you fly in anyway, figuring you'll call up on the radio. Well, one flying school owner I know protests vehemently about people doing this: "It says we're PPR; why don't they phone first?". Another time I actually landed, having got no reply on the radio, and got yelled at. Other airfields even say in flight guides that they fine you if you arrive non-PPR. Still others don't give a damn.

And if you change your mind, or divert...some phone your departure airfield to find out what happened if you don't call them, while others wonder why you even bothered to phone to say you weren't coming after all.

So everyone, and particularly any airfield operators, flying school owners, flight guide publishers, or similar....

WHAT DOES PPR REALLY MEAN?

[Johnm]

PPR means what it says and if you can't raise them on the phone (or radio if they offer that option) then you haven't got it and you can't go.

I should think they'd let you off in an emergency or weather divert though.

[FlyFreeWbe]

But surely PPR is losing its meaning nowadays? An actual experience went something like:

"Hi! I'd like to land at you aerodrome today if that's ok"
"Sure no problem. What time are you thinking?"
"Um, about 12, 12:30"
"Great! See you then!"
<click>
".....uh...hello?..."

Sorry for not answering your question Whirly, but it seems to me that they would want to know as much about the incoming aircraft as possible, its call sign for example. How else would they know who to get mad at for landing without permission?

Imo, PPR is just ink on paper for some places..

[Chilli Monster]

So, following on from that:

You decide to fly to the airfield where I work, not having phoned beforehand. You turn up to find a 747 blocking the runway doing pre-planned engine runs, which had you called before you would have known about.

Still think it's losing its meaning? PPR means just that - Prior Permission REQUIRED. If you phone and they're not interested in taking your details then fine - you've fulfilled your side of the contract. If you don't get an answer then you don't go - or you have a fallback in case you get refused.

(And Whirly knows this - a certain 'farm' if memory serves right? ;) )

[WestWind1950]

Some fields have certain restrictions and are not "open to the public", thus "PPR". The restrictions can run from type of aircraft allowed or only for local club members. The owner then decides whether he can allow you to come or not. It's his decision.
His field may also have a certain number of "non-local" flights allowed, i.e. max. 100 per year, so, if you're the number 99 he may also want to reject your request.
The fields may also have restricted opening hours due to neighbors, or there may have to be someone present for your landing and no one is available, then it's no-go. Another reason could be the grass being mowed, the asphalt being repaired, or other such stuff.
So, there may be times when they just say, "sure, come on over" and other times when they say "sorry, not today!".

PPR just means it's the owners discretion if he allows you to land or not.

Westy

[Keef]

PPR means, quite simply, that you phone before you go.

If they say "Sure, come on over", or ask for your details, or are surprised that you bothered at all - then no problem.

Some places I've phoned have asked for details, such as number of hours, ratings, experience and so on, and then given me a number to use on the radio call.

Then there's that airfield that asked pilot's name, and on being told said "YOU aren't coming in here, chum!" [Hi, Chilli :) ]

I recall there used to be another category called PPO which was a sort of aggressive PPR, but I haven't seen that lately. Perhaps it was a feature of a different flight guide.

[drauk]

Keef, there are (plenty of?) places that are listed as PPR in a flight guide which, as far as I know, don't require you to PHONE them, rather just get permission to land, which I think is what whirly was on about. Cambridge for example - obviously they might say no by radio, if for instance they are in the situation Chilli Monster describes, but there is no requirement to telephone them.

[side-saddled]

We're PPR at my Aerodrome.
This basically means that we want you to ring us before you set off, and someone will take all your details. Callsign, type, departure aerodrome, POB, fuel and endurance and also how long your staying for and whether you require a refuel.

Calling on the radio is not really good enough but we'll let you come in if you do providing we're not too busy.
You'll also get a polite reminder when paying.

There are several reasons for this that I can think of:

1) We have very limited parking space and if your staying for a long period of time we will park you in a different position than if your here for a one hour stop and fuel.

2) It gives our controllers a very good idea of what to expect in traffic loading levels so they don't get caught short with a sudden influx of private pilots.

3) If you don't turn up or have a incident on the way, we can start overdue action and get someone to come and possibly save your life.

4) We can tell you about any unserviceabilities and bad weather before you set off. (Had a lot of these recently!!!!!)

5) We know you've actually bothered looking in the AIP and know a little about our aerodrome layout and traffic patterns.
There's nothing worse than a pilot reading back your instructions then flying straight through your busy circuit because they haven't got a clue where they should be and almost causing an accident.

6) If you have a radio fail on the way and suddenly turn up rocking your wings, we will know who you are and be able to gear up our fire section in case you have another emergency other than just a radio failure.

So if it says PPR ring up first, if they don't sound bothered then you've fuffilled your part of the bargin, but most of us appreciate that extra bit of effort and will find out as much as we can about your flight before you set off.

Needless to say if you've got an emergency, that all goes out of the window and we'll go to any length to try and help you get on the ground safely whether you haven't phoned or didn't even call on the radio.

[Whirlybird]

I obviously haven't really explained what I meant.

All of the above is fine and sensible. But there are the airfields which say that all they meant was that you should call up on the radio. And the ones which when you do visit say: "Well, I know it says PPR, but we don't really care. Come in whenever you like".

The point I was attempting to make is that PPR has acquired so many different meanings that it's very confusing. I can see some people don't think so, and that's fine. But don't you think it would make more sense if they said "PPR by phone", "PPR by radio", or whatever they actually mean, or leave it off if they don't want it.

I phone up anyway, if at all possible, to make sure everything's OK. I think it's a good idea. But that's not actually the point.

[Monocock]

PPR = Prior Permission Required.

If that's telephone, email, letter or pigeon I don't think it makes any difference. The owner / operator of the strip wishes to know that you will be arriving. If the email, letter or phone call isn't answered, you are not welcome. If the pigeon doesn't return you are also not welcome.

I must say I am confused by this thread:confused:

[WestWind1950]

Whirly,

I think the problem is, these fields might not NEED the phone call all the time, only some of the time... which means you can TRY just calling in by radio and that'll be fine. But it may happen, if you depend on that, that they'll say no, for whatever reason, and then you find you don't have a proper alternate. So, call in by phone if possible, but you can of course TRY just by radio and if it works, all the better! :p

You should notice in the AIP, that the PPR is listed for almost all "special airfields" ... at public fields usually after OT (other times... i.e. other then the regular opening hours).

Westy

[englishal]

Its just another way for us to be anal about flying in the UK (like considering the danger of eating a chocolate bar in the cockpit ;) ).

If an airfield doesn't really give two hoots about your details, then why list as PPR, just give the opening times. It'd make life much easier, and would mean we could "lets land there, I need a piss and a drink", without having to book 3 weeks in advance. This would also mean that we could avoid the danger aspect of drinking and eating in the cockpit ;)

(PS I'm a grumpy old bstard today, I'm jet lagged and woke at 4am, and my flying holiday in the USA is over for this year....where I never got PPR once):{

[Whirlybird]

Monocock,

If that were the case it would be simple, and I think in the case of private strips it probably is the case. But what about the airfields that are actually quite happy for anyone to turn up, but are still listed as PPR? englishal put it better than I did:

If an airfield doesn't really give two hoots about your details, then why list as PPR, just give the opening times

If you knew PPR meant PPR, rather than knowing it could mean...just about anything really, I for one would find it easier. And if conversations around flying clubs are anything to go by, I'm not unique. People ignore PPR, because they know that a lot of the time it's not actually required. Crying wolf?

[Dog's Bone]

> recall there used to be another category called PPO which was a sort of aggressive PPR, but I haven't seen that lately.

PPO = Prior Permission Only (by phone)

PPR = Prior Permission Radio

Unfortunately (as Keef reminds us) later day pilots straight out of nursery school, having been taught by equally 'young' and clueless instructors ;) do not remember or even know the difference between the two.

As aviator's of old will tell you, it was quite common to see both 'PPO' or 'PPR' WRITTEN ON THE SAME LINE, TOGETHER, under the appropriate aerodrome, meaning that (PPO) it was essential that you PHONED before leaving on your flight. Whereas (PPR) meant that permission could be sought over the RADIO, however be advised that landing permission could be refused, so have a fall back option and plan your flight to assume that the field would not available.

Yonks ago I recall an aerodrome employee stating that we should have requested Prior Permission. It was pointed out to him that we had, by using the Radio, and had thereby complied with the written instructions which stated that you could use either PPO or PPR.

No doubt with the passage of time the waters have become muddied. I am given to understand by a really old CFI ;) that PPO was in use before radios were in widespread use. As lower category airfields became radio equipped it was acceptable to request permission over the radio, but only if it said 'PPR' (and given the proviso that you must have a fall back option if refused). If it stated 'PPO' then it was not acceptable to use the radio (PPR) for permission.

But I guess this is not what Whirly is on about.

[Keef]

It does rather sound as if clarification is needed from somewhere.

If PPR by radio is OK (which I know it is with some airfields), then maybe their words should omit PPR - because those with radio will call up - and say "NoRdo PPO" so those without the benefit of wireless know to phone beforehand, so that the AG/FISO/ATC knows what to expect.

But unless I know otherwise, I will continue to phone those marked PPR before I leave the ground on the way there. That's the failsafe mode.

[vintage ATCO]

Eh, what? PPR does not mean, and never has meant, 'Prior Permission Radio'. It means Prior Permission Required and that means by telephone beforehand.

It use to be that the phrase used was Prior Permission Only - PPO - but this got changed some considerable time ago to PPR. As far as I am concerned the two mean the same thing. Show me anywhere in the AIP where PPR and PPO are used?

The fact that some airfields are happy with PPR over the radio or even not all does confuse the issue. Why don't you speak to them and see if they'll get their AIP entry change which will eventually get swept up into the guides, or those not in the AIP, with the guides directly.

There is no confusion.

[drauk]

There might be no confusion, but if an airfield is PPR (leaving poor grammar aside) it does make a difference whether it is by phone or by radio. If you're airborne and you decide to fly in to somewhere (perhaps not for a "real weather diversion" but an unplanned stop - you need a break maybe) then you can't call, so you care about the difference and so it's helpful if the flight guide makes the distinction. Of course, nothing to stop you trying on the radio if it's not clear. Unless of course you're thinking of dropping to Elstree without phoning and you get flustered if you get a bollocking on air.

[niknak]

One of the other, and very relavant reasons that airfields are PPR is because they have draconian planning restrictions imposed upon the number of movements they are allowed each year.
Turn up un announced, and land just because you don't get an answer on the radio, and you could be threatening the future of an airfield somewhere - sadly there are a few idiots who haven't got the brain capacity to think about others.:rolleyes:

[DubTrub]

PPR cannot be given by all persons answering the radio at all airfields. For example, as an A/G operator, I cannot LEGALLY deny anyone from landing.

At the end of the day, any "uninvited" landings (except emergencies) might not be welcome, so as good aviating neighbours, if in doubt, phone ahead.

And get the name of the person giving the PPR.

[Keef]

I thought that (even) as an AG operator you could tell inbound pilots that the airport owner has refused permission for them to land.

If the AIP entry says PPR and they still go ahead and land, then they should expect some aggro from someone.

[WestWind1950]

vintage ATCO,

Why don't you speak to them and see if they'll get their AIP entry change

That's not that easy. Like I already mentioned, there are different "categories" of airfield certification.
If it's a "public" airfield, then you will usually not find the PPR, except for particular types of aircraft. One airfield I know used to have PPR for powered gliders because there wasn't always parking available for their long wing span.
Then there are the "special" airfields, which are completely restricted in some way and are not REQUIRED to be open at all times. These, at least in Germany but I'm sure elsewhere, are ALWAYS PPR (check various fields in your AIP and I think you'll noctice this as true... though there may be exceptions)! And it means what it says, either call ahead by phone, or just fly there and try by radio but with the possibility of being refused, so plan accordingly.

Westy

[FoxRomeo]

I'd like to take WestWinds explanation a bit further. Like WW I'm from mainland Europe, but the basics should be the same everywhere else.

It doesn't really make a difference, whether the airfield is "public", "special" or else. The important factor are the hours of operation. If the AIP states the hours than that is set in stone. Outside these hours the airfield simply isn't there. In Germany landing outside operating hours is a grand felony.
No aerodrome operator can change the operating hours on his own, this has to be done via the regulating authorities and leaves a paper trail from here to Tokio.

This is where the PPR comes in. The operator now has the general permission to operate the aerodrome at times of his choosing.

Lets take the example: SAT 1000-1200, SUN 0800-1600, O/T PPR
This means the aerodrome has to be operated (read: is open) sat. and sun. at the times given. Outside these hours it can be operated, but doesn't have to. Therefore you have to check in advance.
Since most a/c are radio equipped nowadays you can use the radio to check. Let's take it you are fairly sure the abovementioned AD is open friday afternoon, you hop on your plane, drive over and call them up on the radio. If someone answers you can land, if not you don't.
Let's assume your a/c is not radio equipped (still exists) you can take the hours of our airfield for granted and land there with out any prior contact (bad style though). Outside the hours stated you have to call in advance. This time via landline, since you don't have a radio.

Let's look at those times: 0600-0800 PPR, 0800-1800, 1800-2000 PPR
The airfield has the permission to operate between 0600 and 2000, but the operator doesn't see much sense in operating in the early morning or late at night, so he restricts himself. He can operate between 0600 and 2000, however he has to operate between 0800 and 1800.

So PPR has nothing to do with radio or not, nor with details or else. Just so the operator knows you're coming, while he isn't obliged to have his airfield open.

All the above leaves emergencies, precationary landings and changes by NOTAMs aside.

Have fun,

FR

[vintage ATCO]

In the UK the categories are:

Public Use Licence where the airfield is licenced under Article 103 of the ANO, and has to be, inter alia '. . . . available for the take-off or landing of all aircraft to all persons on equal terms and conditions, . . . .'

Ordinary Licence where the airfield owner/operator can specify whatever conditions he/she so wishes, and

Unlicenced.

This isn't quite the same as PPR but possibly linked to it. Even a 'public use' licenced airfield could be PPR on occasions and an 'ordinary' licenced (or unlicenced) not be.

PPR really meant 'phone first' although the fact that some will give that approval over the radio muddies the water a bit. I onced phoned quite a well known airfield for PPR on behalf of someone else and was told 'Yes but why are you bothering phoning?' 'Because it says PPR in the AIP' 'Oh! Most people don't bother!!' Oh well :D

[Whirlybird]

I once phoned quite a well known airfield for PPR...and was told 'Yes but why are you bothering phoning?' 'Because it says PPR in the AIP' 'Oh! Most people don't bother!!'

I've had that happen several times. I now phone and say: "I'm phoning to check if it's OK to fly in, and to make sure your weather's alright, and is there anything else I ought to know?" Now, while all of that is good and sensible, the fact is that I'm half doing it so that I don't get asked why I'm bothering to phone. And I've heard conversations along the lines of; "Is it PPR?" "Well, it says it is, but they all do; probably doesn't mean it".

Dare I say that use of the term PPR has now become meaningless? Can you find me an airfield in any of the commonly used flight guides that doesn't say it's PPR? If they ALL mean it, why don't we just make phoning in advance a rule? And if they don't all mean it, let's sort things out properly.

[Keef]

Can you find me an airfield in any of the commonly used flight guides that doesn't say it's PPR?

Yes. My home base, Southend. You do need PPR outside normal hours, for No Radio flights, and for training flights - and it says so in the flight guide I use.

But for a PPL in a radio-equipped aircraft arriving during normal opening hours, there's no PPR. And lots do!

Including two 'erberts on Friday who managed to park, one using up two parking spaces, and the other blocking access to row 4 (the only row with available spaces in it). We had to park over among the hulks.

So I reckon it should say "PPR for Idiots".

[Grainger]

Agree some consistency is required.

I always phone ahead, even if it's somewhere I visit regularly - as there may be something unusual I need to know that day.

But you do get a mixed response, and sometimes the opportunity to relay important information is missed.

On one occasion I called to get PPR and a briefing and was told "just call on the radio", only to arrive and get a bollocking for not knowing they'd moved the helicopter aiming point over the other side of the field a couple of weeks earlier !

Well, it would have been useful to mention that when I phoned and asked then, wouldn't it ?

[Whirlybird]

Ah, Grainger, I learned soon after I got my PPL(H) that there is a very necessary magic phrase that no-one ever teaches you:

"Do you have any special procedures for helicopters?"

It reminds them that those of us with whirly wings are...different. At the very least, it means that they might think about what they should do with us. And it might mean that you don't get a complicated description of where to go, using ground features and routes that you've never even heard of, just as you're coming in to land. :eek: :confused:

Though of course, if it's somewhere you go regularly...can't win, can we?

[Talkdownman]

UK AIP AD 1-1-1

at

http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/pubs/aip/pdf/aerodromes/30101.PDF

may be relevant......


TDM

[FlyingForFun]

Out of interest (and risking a bit of thread-creep), how common is it for helicoptor procedures to not be as well-published as fixed-wing procedures?

I've only been flying out of Blackpool for a few months, but in that short period, there are several occassions where I've heard r/t exchanges such as:

"Helicoptor G-CD is 3 miles to the east"
"G-CD, are you familiar with H North?"
"Erm, er, ah, negative, G-CD"
"Ok, G-CD it's on the grass just to the west of the control tower"
"Oh yes, I see it"
"Ok, if you aim for there initially then" (Note the deliberate dropping of the call-sign at this point.)

Followed by:

"G-CD, I think you're aiming at the wrong place. H-North is actually just off to your left a little."
"Oops - yes, I see it now, thanks!"


In contrast, I can remember hearing only one r/t exchange with a fixed-wing pilot who had trouble locating the runway, and this was easily resolved by the pilot climbing to the overhead and then doing a standard overhead join. I've never heard a controller who felt it necessary to check with a fixed-wing pilot whether he was familiar with a particular runway, whereas I frequentyly hear controllers ask visiting helicoptor pilots if they are familiar with helicoptor aiming points.

This is in no way intended as a comment on the helicoptor pilots themselves, but instead on the way the helicoptor procedures are (or are not) published.

Comments?

FFF
---------------

[Chilli Monster]

I've never heard a controller who felt it necessary to check with a fixed-wing pilot whether he was familiar with a particular runway, whereas I frequentyly hear controllers ask visiting helicoptor pilots if they are familiar with helicoptor aiming points.
This could be because:

a) Runways tend to stick out like a dogs b:mad:s; and

b) Helicopter landing spots, being smaller, don't.

[Fuji Abound]

A number of contributors have suggested PPR means prior permission required BY TELEPHONE – but why make that assumption? Unless I have missed something in this thread BY TELEPHONE is an assumption.

Moreover if an operator / owner wants pilots to call first why don’t they say so!

We do set off on a flight sometimes with nothing particular in mind, but decide “oh, it might be pleasant to drop into x”. In my opinion that is part of the pleasure of flying and a good reason for operators asking for prior permission but quite happily accepting that being requested in flight – after all if they really are too busy to accept you, the landing can be refused – and you have requested prior permission!

I can think of a case recently where I wanted to be at a particular airport at 10-30. Now that airport didn’t open until 10-00, and the journey was around an hour. I didn’t decide until that morning that I wanted to go. I asked en route for the station I was working to request prior permission and they gladly did so. When I arrived it was very politely suggested that I should ‘phone before hand, but in this case that was not possible. Of course they could have refused me and I would have turned back, but had I left latter the flight would have been pointless, and I would have missed the event I was going to see.

I can think of many airports where the guide says PPR but they are always happy to accept you and seem faintly surprised when you ‘phone first. It seems to me if owners / operators REALLY want you to ‘phone first THEN PLEASE SAY SO. It seems contrite otherwise to accept PPR airborne only to moan after you have landed that PPR should have been filed by telephone – if you cant accept the aircraft then say so because we all understand if an airport is PPR there is no guarantee we will be accepted however we file, and we also understand if we want to be certain it would be wise to phone first.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I think that Whirly started something quite useful here - it's clearly not a standard term that everybody understands in the same way. As such, my instinct is to say that it needs clarifying.

Perhaps we need some form of more complex, but standardised, terminology - here's a starting suggestion from me:-



PPR (phone) - meaning mandatory by phone before visiting on every occasion.

PPR (first) - meaning mandatory by phone before a first visit, so that you get all the necessary briefings.

PPR (radio) - meaning mandatory radio contact, or phone for permission if non-radio.

PPR (>600) - mandatory PPR on each occasion for anything over 600kg.

PPR (helo) - PPR for each visit by helicopters, not required other types.

PPR (Oct-Dec) - PPR mandatory for any visit between October and December.


So the AIP/Pooleys/Lockyears entry for my strip might read something like PPR (first)(helo) , or for Old Sarum (not listed for any reason but I know it fairly well) might read PPR (radio) . A more complex strip of my acquaintance which is inside a restricted area so requiring a special briefing, normally restricted to microlights only, but non-radio might be listed PPR (first)(>450)

G

[Whirlybird]

Genghis,

That's the most sensible suggestion that anyone's come up with so far, IMHO. :ok:

I started looking through my VFR guide last night, wondering exactly what the situation was. Well...confusion probably covers it. Very, very few airfields weren't PPR, though Southend wasn't, as Keef said. Some said PPR at the top of the page, then qualified it by saying PPR should be by phone, or by radio, or in winter, or similar. Some qualified it by saying PPR was essential, which suggests to me that they know that PPR at the top of the page is usually ignored because it's become part of the background of the guide.

Genghis' suggestion would make sense of the whole thing. And more importantly, it probably means that pilots would take notice and do it!

[cubflyer]

I agree with Fuji's sentiments entirely. If they want you to phone this should be explicitly stated. Otherwise PPR means by any means eg, radio, light signals or whatever.
Actually Gengis's suggestion is a good one too. But I do wish that airfields only put PPR if they really wanted it. At most airfields where you phone up becuase it says PPR by telephone even, half of them wondr why you are phoning.
Someone mentioned the case of airfields abroad, specifically Germany where "outside hours" the airfield doesnt exist. This is an unfortunate thing in Germany, but exactly the opposite in France, when "outside hours" is when everyone flies! Except for specific airfields that are listed as restricted use, you can land anywhere and if no one answers you on the radio, you just make standard no radio position calls and land. Pity its not the same in the UK. We do have a number of airfields like this, others where you can operate "out of hours" with prior permission (usually in writing, sometimes just a phonecall) and others where you cant even do that- sometime for planning restrictions.
Of course in the USA everywhere is open all the time and they've never heard of PPR. If its closed then there are Xs on the runways and its NOTAMed closed. Which for the case of someones 747 engine runs should also be the case!
Unless there really are good reasons why PPR is required due to restrictions , or a private strip, I cant see any reason why most airfields are adopting these bureaucratic procedures.

Worse was the case of one airfield a few years ago which insisted on PPR by Telephone. As I was flying from Wiltshire to Scotland via Barton, I was not sure if Id have enough fuel to quite make Barton depending on the winds. So the day before, when planning my flight I phoned up for PPR, told them I might be coming around 3pm if necessary and got my prior permission. As it happened on the day, I had a tailwind, so could make it to Barton easily non stop. Fuelled up there and then continued to Carlisle for a nightstop. got to Carlisle who told me that D+D were looking for me!!! Wonder what that is about! I hadnt filed a flightplan. so called them up from the tower. Apparently this airfield had reported me overdue as I hadnt got there at my PPR time, that Id booked the day before saying I might come!! So they wasted D+D's time as well as no doubt other airfield's time who had been phoned up. If I had wanted that type of service, obviously I would have filed a flightplan. If I'd have been able to just come in if I needed to without PPR by phone, then I could have done that if necessary and saved all the bother. It would seem that this airfield is really taking it all a bit too far!

The rule really should be that if the windsock is flying and runway not Xed then the airfield is open, unless specifically Notamed otherwise.

[Chilli Monster]

If its closed then there are Xs on the runways and its NOTAMed closed. Which for the case of someones 747 engine runs should also be the case!
They are NOTAM'd - still didn't stop somebody turning up without phoning first (And obviously not checking the NOTAMs ;) )

[david viewing]

If I had wanted that type of service, obviously I would have filed a flightplan.

Sorry this is a bit of a tangent, but the above is indicative of the chaotic UK VFR 'flightplan' issue. I guess that the reason that some PPR places might make an overdue report is that almosy no UK pilots file VFR flightplans unless going foreign.

IMHO the reason for this is that the plans don't go overdue by default as a rational person might expect, and as they do in the US: in the UK a 'responsible person' has to report you overdue. This might be a FISO if the airport is manned, but it's no-one if it is unnattended/out of hours etc.. In my experience not every VFR pilot knows that. (OK, I know you are supposed to appoint your own 'responsible person' for your 'do it yourself' VFR flightplan, but whose that going to be? Your wife/partner? "Don't worry dear, flying's perfectly safe really but I might crash in the sea today, so if I don't come home please call SAR!")

The effect is that there is little point in filing a VFR plan in many circumstances where you might need them most - flying late in the day, flying in weather where diversion might be needed and so on.

So it might be a good idea that some PPR operators will file you overdue. Problem is, as is said repeatedly on this thread, that the responses to PPR phone calls are so variable that it's hard to remember weather the operator was interested, noted your reg, etc.. or not. And by the time you phone to announce non-arrival after diverting somewhere else, they've all gone home anyway.

For a professional solution look no further than flight service in the US. Maybe some of the buckets of (our) Euro money under the common charging scheme could fund a proper VFR flight plan service through London Information. Then some of the PPR silliness could be replaced by 'flight plan required', as they are in Ireland (where you still need PPR!)

[Sunfish]

It has been drummed into me over here that unless you are going to land at a licenced airport, it is YOUR responsibility to find out everything you can about the destination aerodrome BEFORE you take off.

The regulations are quite specific and they even provide a checklist of what you should be asking.

In my humble and uninformed opinion, it makes absolutely no sense NOT to telephone and get the latest gen on your destination before you leave, and if you are met with incredulity on the other end of the phone, well tough!

I would much rather be thought a timid wimp for asking permission and seeking advice then have to stand there with a busted aeroplane with some guy saying "Didn't you know about the (pothole/mud/powerline/ kangaroos/emus/cattle/ditch/ gliders/quicksand or whatever)?

[2Donkeys]

I'm with Sunfish, and can't understand why a topic so mundane can reach this number of pages.

Top tip: If it says PPR in the AIP, phone the field up first. If it doesn't, then don't.

What's the worst that could happen? - a slightly indifferent reply to your call. Big deal.

[Fuji Abound]

"I would much rather be thought a timid wimp for asking permission and seeking advice then have to stand there with a busted aeroplane with some guy saying "Didn't you know about the (pothole/mud/powerline/ kangaroos/emus/cattle/ditch/ gliders/quicksand or whatever)?"

I think with respect you have missed the point.

I don’t think anyone is suggesting landing without checking with the operator that they will accept you and enabling them to point out any hazards. All other issues aside to do so would be just plain rude as often the field is their private property.

I think the point that is being debated is it would be helpful to know which operators will accept a PPR request from the air. I could be very wrong but I have a feeling their are many.

One more example - there is a strip only about 20 mins away. Pooleys insists it is PPR but most people pitch up without phoning first, the owner is delighted to welcome everyone and has told me he would prefer if "regulars" don’t 'phone first as it is disruptive to air ground having to do so.

I for one am cautious about making things any more complicated than necessary. Flying is one of the most regulated past times and I am sure it is one of the things that put people off.

[Flyin'Dutch']

Is there a problem?

I quite often ring ahead even if it does not say PPR.

I want to know anything pertinent to the aerodrome and will find out by means of 2 minute phone call.

FD

[alphaalpha]

Perhaps more important is: having phoned for PPR and given reg. with an ETA, is to phone gain if you subsequently decide not to fly or to fly elsewhere. Does anybody do this? Does it make any difference if you have PPR'd an ATC/FIS field, as opposed to air ground?

AA.

[Chilli Monster]

If you've booked into a unit with ATC and passed all your details then they'll certainly start phoning up if you haven't arrived (the dreaded 'duty of care').

A cancellation phone call is nothing more than good manners (I take it people still believe in such things around here? :) )

[Fuji Abound]

Spontaneity - rip.

[cubflyer]

Some people do want to make this complicated.
Firstly there is a big difference between phoning up to land at a private strip, that might have difficult approaches, livestock on the runway etc, to getting PPR for landing at a licensed airfield.
For the private strip then you will generally phone in advance, except those, quite a few, which say, dont bother to phone, you are welcome any time. And if you have phoned up and the farmer has said he will have to move the sheep etc, then if you are not going to go, then you might phone back to save him the trouble. But if he has said yes, come in any time, we are open all day, someone might be here, then if you decide not to go, no problem.

But if its a licensed airfield, where the Notams dont show any closure, then unless its PPR by phone, there is absolutely no point in phoning up, particularly if youve been before. And if you do phone up for PPR, then you are asking for Permission to land there, not booking a slot. So if you have permission and dont go, then no problem, you still have permission but just didnt go! No point in wasting more of their time with another phonecall.
If I have booked a slot then yes phone back to say I wont be using it, so someone esle can have it, but how often do you need to get a slot! except for fly-ins at North Weald.

If Im going out flying for the day, I might look up the fields in the flight guide the day before and phone up any requiring PPR by phone the day before to get permission, but Ive no idea when I might get there- sometime in the afternoon. So its a bit stupid to rely on me being there at a certain time. Of course if they say its closed between 2 and 3 for a display or something, then I'll make sure Im not there at that time.
Other days I might just fly somewhere and from there decide to go somewhere else, if it says PPR by phone, then hard luck, as I probably wont have a phone with me, and there might not be one where I am, but otherwise I can just look the place up in the guide and go.

As for the flightplan system, it seems to work fine to me. Lets not increase the bureaucracy. There is no need at all to file VFR flightplans unless going abroad, lets keep it that way! We dont want to go the way of Spain, where you need one for every flight and can open and close them in the air, but only if you can actually get hold of someone to hear you!
Re Flightplans, I also cant see the point of needing them when going from one Shennegen country to another, as you dont need customs and immigration now!