Stepped-Climb SIDS- The Definitive Word......

[Sick Squid]

Folks,

Need to know precisely what you expect on the stepped-climb departures from LHR and LGW. There is confusion amongst the troops, from my experience

My take is that the initial block height is maintained, (say on a Dover off 26L at LGW) until passing that particular point (29d DVR from memory?) when you then climb, unnanounced if you can't get a word in edgeways, to be 5000 by ACORN, then after ACORN you climb in similar fashion to 6000 by DVR or wherever, I don't have the chart in front of me. Other SID's similar, please substitute LHR SID's as appropriate.

The reason I ask is we never do the complete procedure, we are always in my experience vectored off the SID before the restriction, both at LGW and LHR. I have never in 7 years at either airport actually flown a complete SID in this manner... or if we flown the complete lateral track there has been a definite ATC contact with a "maintain" given.

The problem is, there are a lot of my colleagues who will not leave the SID level on the first or subsequent step until they have confirmed it with yourselves. Or if they are not the problem, then there are some of us like me, who will climb in accordance with the chart assuming no radio contact. This often arises during the pre-flight brief in the cockpit, if conflict arises, then any disagreement is mitigated by the simple fact that we never actually end up in that position.

Problem really is.... who is correct? What do you expect, what do you require? And more importantly, why is it not clear to us, even with the bold Warning: stepped-climb procedure box on the plate? Perhaps it needs amending to reflect that this is what is expected unless amended by ATC on the day.

Whatever it is, the definitive word would be most apprecited.

£6

[ 20 July 2001: Message edited by: Sick Squid ]

[Kirk to Enterprise]

You are correct. Unless otherwise instructed you should follow the SID profile. If you do not then you may well meet a LCY departure at 4,000' in the DET area ( having said that you will have noticed that both LHR and LGW DVR SIDs both end at DVR at 6,000' !!?).

Personally, I will always give a climb to either 5,000' or 6,000' on first call off LGW on a DVR, dependant on LHR DVR departures. This then overides the SID and negates the steps as it is a new clearance ( If 5,000' don't climb further on the SID steps please, I hate paperwork!! ).

Off LHR you climb straight to 6,000 anyway and are generally given a heading off EPM (if Westerly). So no problems.

Hope that helps. :)

[ATCO Two]

Hi SS,

Same applies out of LCY. Essential to maintain 3000 ft after departure due Heathrow inbounds descending to 4000 ft on top of you. Equally important to climb on the SID profile (unless modified by ATC), or you will fly outside controlled airspace.

[BOAC]

To clarify, then, if you give "climb altitude 5000'" on a SID with an initial block at 4000', and, say, we cannot get a word in - or lose contact, are we NOT to climb in accordance with the SID at the next waypoint? Perhaps "climb and maintain altitude 5000'" is necessary?

[Sick Squid]

Thanks folks, the sharing of information like yours above is exactly why this BB excels!

Following on from BOAC's post, I must admit I've always treated any restriction given by ATC on contact as final until further notice, irrespective of any steps. However it is a grey area, not hammered home enough, and I can see confusion possibly arising under certain circumstances.. the recent debate over STAR restrictions being one (I'll still give you at least the level by SABER or wherever, no matter the onward clearance as that is what I feel is expected. Makes life easier for both of us!)

So if I check in, "passing 1800" for 4000" on a Dover" and receive a "Roger Speedbird X" or "Continue with the procedure" I'll apply the steps unless otherwise interfered with (matron!) as I always would have done. If a climb above a step is given, then that is a new clearance, and over-rides the SID, even if it only applies in the vertical plane.

Great... I've now got the definitive answer for those who have never been placed in the position and are unsure. Many of the co-pilots both BOAC and I fly with are very new to the environment, and quite rightly voice concerns over situations they are unfamiliar with or uncertain about, which is where this interpretation problem first manifested itself to yours truly.

£6

Edit because details of the FAM and ECT courses at LATCC arrived in the post this arvo (long lie!) and sound just the ticket. Will definitely try to fit one in soon...

[ 21 July 2001: Message edited by: Sick Squid ]

[Kirk to Enterprise]

BOAC,

That's it, do NOT climb further, the new clearance cancels the previous. Hence, no need to say maintain.

However, should you lose contact then r/t-fail procedures apply!

Glad to be of assistance. :)