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alexban
4th Nov 2004, 19:56
Hy
From a recent sim discussion:
In case of engine failure during short final,if you decide to go-around,what flaps will you select? 15 or directly 1?
From the FCTM :" engine failure on final approach.......
If a g-around is required,follow the engine inoperative missed approach go-around proc."
How you do it in sim practice?

Brgds Alex

FourTrails
4th Nov 2004, 20:12
Cat 1 or better:

Maintain slope and centerline, apply thrust, accelerating to Vref+15 and simultaneously select flaps to 15.
Now assuming you wish to continue going around and not now land with 15 flap, - ensure GA thrust set, select flap 1 and climb out at Vref+15

Low Visibility conditions / very close in:

Immediately go-around. Set G/A thrust & simultaneouosly call for flaps 15. Climb at Vref+5 (At all weights, Vref40+5 will be equal or greater than V2 for flap 15) - This is different as we have to assume an engine failure at DH precluding any acceleration.


(If on Glide Slope, the FD on the failed side will disappear, if this happens to be PF's, deselecting PNF's FD will restore yours)

80/20
4th Nov 2004, 22:34
What you don't want to do is to go from normal landing flap 30/40 to flap 1. If you do, the 737 will just sink sluggishly downwards.

Boeing talks about engine failure on final and engine failiure during go-around. Flap one is recommended for all single engine go-arounds except when you get it just as you go-arround - for which flap 15 is recommended.

alexban
5th Nov 2004, 11:43
I was talking about engine failure on final,followed by the decision to go-around. in this case,boeing recommends "follow the engine inop go/around proc" (fctm) wich says "use flap 1...."
In case of eng failure during go\around,indeed Boeing recommends using flap 15 (already set at GA).
80/20 I agree with you about the aerodynamics efect of retracting flap from 30 to 1 ,but I was told that from flap 15 to 1 the flap is designed to retract slow,so enaugh time to increase speed.

brgds Alex

BOAC
5th Nov 2004, 12:33
alexI agree with you about the aerodynamics efect of retracting flap from 30 to 1 ,but I was told that from flap 15 to 1 the flap is designed to retract slow,so enaugh time to increase speed - yes it IS a slow retraction, but what speed are you intending to accelerate to?

IMO are we not over-complicating it? Four Trails has it - nice and simple - (except I would beg to differ on the speed - should it not be Vref+20?). It all hinges on the speed you have. If you have accelerated to Vref30/40+20, this is a safe speed for Vref Flap 15 to land, and you can then take Flap 1 if you g/a (as per s/e g/a). If not, then at Vref 30/40+5 you will need to g/a with Flap 15 (as per 2/e g/a) or you will be below V2 Flap 1, and only go Flap 1 when you have Vref 30/40 +20, as per some SOPs in places like Innsbruck and Chambery...............or is it more complicated?

alexban
6th Nov 2004, 17:55
BOAC :yes, in case of retracting flap directly to 1 you should increase flap at vref30 +20kt,or vref 15 +5
This ideea of going from flap 30 to 1 in case of engine failure on final,followed immediately by GA,is what can be understood from the last ammendament of the FCTM of the 737 (5.31 oct31/2003),as I said before.
We've tried it in the sim ,flaps 15 and also flaps 1 direct,and there are different feelings about both procedure.
My question is how you do it?
From your answers I get is : eng fail-GA- flaps 15,speed vref 30+15(20). This is how we do it,but from the FCTM I understood diferently,and I was trying to find out how others do this.
Thks
Brgds Alex

BOAC
6th Nov 2004, 20:09
Alex - I am not privy to the FCTM, so you have me at a disavantage. All I am asking is that IF you are going to go straight to Flap 1 then what speed are you going to fly?

As I understand it (and I do not think it changed with that amendment), as the flaps pass Flap 15 you need to be accelerating to VRef 30/40+20 from the Vref 30/40+5 you started with. What does the FCTM call for speed targets?

"follow the engine inop go/around proc" (fctm) wich says "use flap 1...." - don't forget that this E/O proc. STARTS at VREF 15+5 which is the s/e approach speed, so you are ALREADY there (Vref 30/40+20). You are asking about engine failure on a 2/e approavch when you are a lot slower - Vref30/40+5. I think you are misunderstanding the advice given?

I suggest you read four trails again?

alexban
8th Nov 2004, 17:11
My point exactly BOAC .I completly agree with you,my question was due to that paragraf in the FCTM.
They say that in case of engine failure on final app you have to decide to continue or go-around.
In case you decide to continue ,then select flaps 15,speed vref 30+15kt.
or:
"If a go-around is required,follow the engine inoperative missed approach/go-around procedures."
Maybe you select flap15,increase speed,then decide to GA,and follow proc for SE.This would be ok in real life.
But in the sim,we did CAT 3A app,followed by eng fail at 100' then GA. So,that's why I've asked :flap 15 or 1?
Brgds Alex

LEM
8th Nov 2004, 18:36
HI alex, I started a very similar topic last year...here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=89654&highlight=b737+go+around+sequence)

alexban
8th Nov 2004, 20:12
Hy LEM ,how are you?
So,how you do it in the sim? Flap 1?
I've recently had CAT 3 A training,with ,of course ,engine failure at 100' -go-around. We did use flap 15- slow acceleration,my guess. I didn't try flap 1-next time maybe.
Brgds
Alex

Slick
9th Nov 2004, 15:22
Flap15 and stay there. Its the same as taking off flap 15 and loseing and engine, no?

Rgds

daw
9th Nov 2004, 17:06
Excuse my ignorance but what factors are taken into consideration in deciding to perform a GA in this situation? Just strikes me that whatever caused one engine to fail could impact on the 2nd and if you can make a safe landing on just the one engine then that would be the right course of action rather than running the risk?

LEM
9th Nov 2004, 18:11
Hi daw, we only perform a cat 3 approach using autoland, so if one engine fails , no autoland is possible anymore, and you have to go around.

As always, the Captain has got the final word in such a critical situation: if he feels safer to land like that, because he's very close to the ground with enough in sight, he can do it.
This is also written in our SOP, thanks god.

Yes it takes handling skills to land after being destabilized by an engine failure at 100ft.

If in doubt, go around.

Hi alex, fine thanks, flying a lot... tired...

Losing an engine on final with a decision to go around, I think, can be spilt in two cases:

1) you are high enough to call for Vref+15 (on the 300) or Vref+20 (on the 400. That's for extra tail clearance, Boeing says), and for Flaps 15, before pulling up.
Automatically, without even thinking about it, still descending on the glideslope.
Then pulling up, and calling for Flaps 1.
You'll climb at V2 Flaps one, better gradient than Flaps 15, of course.

2) you are close to the ground, as per your scenario, and of course you have to pull up immediately.
In this case I think it's better to use Flaps 15.


Morale of the story, imho: flaps retraction is quite slow, so in both cases there are no problems, if you have a minimum of good handling skills.

Just remember this: at Vref+15/20 you'll get manouvering margins if you climb with Flaps 15, or V2 margins if you climb with Flaps one.
Both margins are acceptable to us, so funny is, with this beautiful spartan machine, it doesn't matter what flap you use!!!

Funny isn't it? Just fly smoothly, in total control of all elements.
There are no problems at all. ;)

LEM

downwind
10th Nov 2004, 03:07
Guy's:

My 2 cents worth!!!!!

MISSED APPROACH/GO-AROUND – ONE ENGINE INOPERATIVE

1. PF “GO-AROUND FLAP 1” (SIMULTANEOUSLY SELECT TO/GA AND MAX CONT THRUST) LOOKING FOR APPROX 12.5° BODY ANGLE
2. PNF “POSITIVE RATE”
3. PF “GEAR UP, CHECK THRUST” PNF “THRUST SET”
4. PF “HDG SELECT” @ 400 AGL
5. ACCELARATION ALT 1000 FT AGL
6. LIMIT BANK ANGLE TO 15 DEGREES UNTIL MANEUVERING COMPLETE
7. ACCELERATE TO FLAP RETRACTION SPEED BY REPOSITIONING THE COMMAND SPEED TO MANEUVERING SPEED FOR THE DESIRED FLAP SETTING

THE MISSED APPROACH WITH AN ENGINE INOPERATIVE SHOULD BE APPLISHED IN THE SAME MANNER AS A NORMAL MISSED APPROACH EXCEPT USE FLAPS 1 FOR THE GO-AROUND FLAP SETTING. AFTER TO/GA IS ENGAGED, THE AFDS INITIALLY COMMANDS A GO-AROUND ATTITUDE, THEN TRANSITIONS TO MAINTAIN COMMAND SPEED AS THE RATE OF CLIMB INCREASES. THE PILOT MUST CONTROL YAW WITH RUDDER AND TRIM. SOME RUDDER PRESSURE MAY BE REQUIRED EVEN WITH FULL RUDDER TRIM. SELECT MAXIMUM CONTINUOUS THRUST WHEN FLAPS ARE RETRACTED.

ENGINE FAILURE DURING MISSED APPROACH/GO-AROUND

1. PF “GO-AROUND FLAP 15” (SIMULTANEOUSLY SELECT TO/GA AND MAX CONT THRUST) LOOKING FOR APPROX 12.5° BODY ANGLE
2. PNF “POSITIVE RATE”
3. PF “GEAR UP, CHECK THRUST” PNF “THRUST SET”
4. PF “HDG SELECT” @ 400 AGL
5. ACCELARATION ALT 1000 FT AGL
6. LIMIT BANK ANGLE TO 15° UNTIL MANEUVERING COMPLETE
7. ACCELERATE TO FLAP RETRACTION SPEED BY REPOSITIONING THE COMMAND SPEED TO MANEUVERING SPEED FOR THE DESIRED FLAP SETTING

IF AN ENGINE FAILS DURING GO-AROUND, PERFORM NORMAL GO-AROUND PROCEDURES. VERIFY MAXIMUM GO-AROUND THRUST IS SET. MAINTAIN FLAPS 15, VREF 30 OR 40 + WIND CORRECTIONS (5 KNOTS MINIMUM) SPEED AND LIMIT BANK ANGLE TO 15° UNTIL INITIAL MANEUVERING IS COMPLETE AND A SAFE ALTITUDE IS REACHED. ACCELERATE TO FLAP RETRACTION SPEED BY REPOSITIONING THE COMMAND SPEED TO MANEUVERING SPEED FOR THE DESIRED FLAP SETTING AND ADJUSTING PITCH. RETRACT FLAPS ON THE NORMAL FLAP/SPEED SCHEDULE.

THE MISSED APPROACH WITH AN ENGINE INOPERATIVE SHOULD BE ACOMPLISHED IN THE SAME MANNER AS A NORMAL MISSED APPROACH EXCEPT USE FLAPS 1 FOR THE GO-AROUND FLAP SETTING. AFTER TO/GA IS ENGAGED, THE AFDS INITIALLY COMMANDS A GO-AROUND ATTITUDE, THEN TRANSITIONS TO MAINTAIN COMMAND SPEED AS THE RATE OF CLIMB INCREASES. THE PILOT MUST CONTROL YAW WITH RUDDER AND TRIM. SOME RUDDER PRESSURE MAY BE REQUIRED EVEN WITH FULL RUDDER TRIM. SELECT MAXIMUM CONTINUOUS THRUST WHEN FLAPS ARE RETRACTED.

ENGINE FAILURE ON FINAL APPROACH

IF AN ENGINE FAILURE SHOULD OCCUR ON FINAL APPROACH WITH FLAPS IN THE LANDING POSITION, THE DECISION TO CONTINUE THE APPROACH OR EXECUTE A GO-AROUND SHOULD BE MADE IMMEDIATELY. IF THE APPROACH IS CONTINUED, RETRACT THE FLAPS TO 15 AND ADJUST THRUST ON THE OPERATING ENGINE. SPEED SHOULD BE INCREASED TO 15 KNOTS OVER THE PREVIOUSLY SET FLAPS 30 OR 40 VREF. THIS IS EQUAL TO AT LEAST VREF FOR FLAPS 15.

Centaurus
10th Nov 2004, 11:27
Also discussed in Pprune previously was that often in the simulator during a go-around from low level on one engine (or engine failure after lift off) the PNF is so engrossed with doing things that he inadvertently forgets to call "positive rate" and in turn because the PF doesn't get the call, he too forgets to call for gear retraction and they wonder why the aeroplane isn't climbing too well. Simulator instructors have seen this enough times to realise that this is not just an aberration - it happens frequently, and is not addressed sufficiently.

The original Boeing FCTM teaching was that on observing a positive rate of climb on both IVSI and altimeter the PF calls gear up and the PNF then selects gear up after verifying. This is how it should be. Relying on the other fellow to tell you what to do is not smart thinking.

LEM
10th Nov 2004, 19:28
Agree, Centaurus.

This also seem to be the standard in Cathay (744 videotape...)

TRon
13th Nov 2004, 01:07
Would you not use LNAV if you had update 7.5 or on a 700 as the missed approach takes into terrain clearance?

Just wondering, it's not normally briefed or assumed for an engine failure on approach and go around situation. I think heading select at 400ft is great where you are familiar with the terrain, BUT maybe we dont want to be yamming around a complicated missed approach when we have got more important things after engine failure like Recall items, QRH and my latest favourite passenger donated cockpit read, Nuts.

TRon

BOAC
13th Nov 2004, 08:47
as the missed approach takes into terrain clearance - TRON - best NOT to assume that! (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=151363)

If you want one to focus your mind look at a heavyweight g/a from threshold on R14L at MRS, which has a significant obstacle.

Would you turn early?