Question for LHR ATC.

[WeeWillyWinky]

Tonight we were waiting on 23 to cross 09R (the T/O runway). It was dark. We were told to cross after the departing 747. After it had passed our red stop bar remained illuminated. My co - pilot wanted to cross the bar. I preferred to ask politely for some greens and not cross a red bar at night. Should we have carried on? The implication being that we had been given a valid clearance and therefore the red stop bar didn't count at that point.

This is not a criticism but a request for clarification for my own peace of mind. Thank you.

[BuzzLightyear]

Don't blame you for asking for clarification.
Could have avoided a "standby to repel boarders on the starboard side!!"

I don't think any ATCO should get the hump when asked to confirm an instruction, it saves filling in lots of paperwork at times!

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To infinity and beyond

[Lew Ton]

I agree. Don't know the precise procedures at LHR but here at LTN we use stopbars all the time. If the stopbar doesn't agree with the clearance I'd much rather the crew question it.

[U R NumberOne]

Request clarification every time I would say - the red stop bar is there for a reason. It also has the advantage of a pilot pointing out when a trainee ATCO has forgotten something - saves the instructor from doing it. (My current Tower trainee is excellent though - and a PPRuNer :) ).

[HounslowHarry]

Good post WWW. Raises a number of issues.

If you have a clearance, then technically you are cleared to cross the runway.

However, at Heathrow especially, it is imperative that we protect the integrity of the red and green system, and in the interests of safety a quick reminder to the controller will be appreciated.

Even though you have a clearance, you would not cross or line up on a runway without checking the runway or approach for other aeroplanes. The red bar problem comes into this double check for safety category.

There are many reasons why the red bar may not be dropped. Here follows a few, but not all. It should give a feel for the complex nature of the lighting system at Heathrow.

1. Finger trouble - the button the controller has to activate is extremely fidgety, does not react straight away (Time delay due computer control), and because of this is prone to double press syndrome, therefore cancelling the route. These buttons are similar to what we have to control routes in the holding areas. 27L for example is like trying to light different branches of a christmas tree - almost certainly slows down the movement rate. (we didn't design it)

2. The controller is quite often distracted with a telephone call, or a problem elsewhere and forgets to hit your button. Controllers try to have a wide scan, but when that covers 360 degrees and a 4km strip of tarmac, a holding area (09R) that is 3 km from the tower, and often 15 aeroplanes fighting for the number one spot.....

3. The route is set up by one of Lighting Operators, who work with the ground movement controllers. They set the route up either side of the runway and the controller has to activate his button to light a route across the active runway. It may be that the route is set up just slightly differently, i.e if there was a previous landing aeroplane and it vacated at Bl 85 (R/w 23) to terminal 4, then the lighting panel would be set up wrong, but yet it wouldn't be obvious to either of us.

I think you get the drift WWW.

And to top it all off although it is human input, it is computer controlled so sometimes it just goes tits up.

In this business, nobody should get the hump when somebody double checks something.
Always query something that isn't right.

On a more political note, the long haulers into Heathrow may be interested to note that due to a lack of qualified lighting operators at the world's premier international airport, there may be occasions during a night shift when there is no one to route the aircraft on the taxiways before 0600 hrs.

So before this time, let's hope it doesn't get foggy!

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

And something to remember - the Heathrow Lighting Operator is THE busiest person on this earth bar absolutely none. I worked there for 23+ years and those guys saved my bacon more times than I care to remember. I have very highest regard for those people. Pilots and we ATCOs often complain about high workload but it is insignificant compared to working the reds & greens on a busy evening in pouring rain - and if you throw in 23 operations only a superhuman can do it. If you're an aeroplane driver please remember this when you get stuck behind a red bar... but most definitely query it even if you have had verbal clearance.

[halo]

Two very fine posts indeed!!

[smooth approach]

Any doubt = NO DOUBT!

[WeeWillyWinky]

Thanks for the prompt and illuminating (no pun intended) replies. I shall pass them on to the colleague I was flying with for his future reference!