Let Down by IPMS??

[250 kts]

Do you feel let down by the recent agreement to do additional attendances at LATCC and are you prepared to do them ,or should management have been left to resolve the issue of increased NTT and been left to take the inevitable service hit?.
NERC would probably have been delayed had IPMS not agreed, but was it looking after the majority of its' members. It's obviously caused alot of controversy in AC , so should we be doing it at all, or should the deal be terminated asap?
:confused: :confused:

[ 30 August 2001: Message edited by: 250 kts ]

[torpids]

At last someone has asked the question.
The sell out is by every individual who
takes the money. You all have a choice.
But then all I see on here are a few
people who care about something beyond
there own short term gain. You had a
golden opportunity to make the management
face up to the consequences of its own
inept actions. But guess what, wave enough
pound notes at people and the majority say
thank you very much. Thats how it works.
Pick off the greedy individuals and there are
enough of them to keep them in business.
In my book that makes them part of the lie.
Unfortunately this mercenary lot won't lose
a wink of sleep about it. Shame about the
few who still seem to care about reality and
honesty and who do suffer sleepless nights
worrying about it.
Is there no hope left?

[overload]

Personally, no, I don’t have a problem with it, for the following reasons

If we don’t do the attendance’s which are after all completely voluntary, it’s likely that Nerc won’t open on time, and we will end up with another 15 months of the pain and disruption that we have at the moment.

The payments are pretty generous, I think colleagues as not as well off as us, would fall off there seats if they saw the figures.

It’s not actually management that takes the service hit, but the airlines and eventually Joe public. I see closing sectors, with the huge disruption caused a small victory in order to prove a point.

Many of the additional attendances will be from Nerc NTT staff, most of which have already relocated to Nerc. A short drive, plus a days instruction on the sim at Nerc, I would suggest, is not a particularly stressful way to pocket a “bung”.

A duty at Latcc would be much more fatiguing, but if that’s the case, don’t do it for yourself but why stop everyone else from making their own decision.

The main (only?) argument against additional attendances is I believe the “thin edge of the wedge/voluntary now – compulsory later” theme, which I personally don’t subscribe to but accept it may be a real fear for some. I’m prepared to cross that bridge if and when we come to it.

The cumulative effect of long range commuting is I think as bad as any extra additional attendances we voluntary take on. Without the additional attendances the Airlines suffer, the public suffers and we suffer, I think the pro’s outweigh the cons.

PS I not an NTT’er and I haven’t relocated, live near Latcc.

[2 six 4]

Well posted Overload.

Surely we should now be trying to get NERC on line as soon as possible and start making the improvements that are in the pipeline. How many years have people been complaining about the NERC travel ? Im not sure how many other ATCOs round the country have an idea of how much is being paid for the NERC training deal. Manch in particular are having to deal with lots of level capped traffic because of NERC training shortages in AC and yet they get nothing. And still the whinging continues.

[BEXIL160]

250 and Torpids.....

No, I do not feel "Let down" by IPMS.

Sell out of what? The job is about providing a safe, orderly and expeditious SERVICE. That is what I joined what was then the CAA / NATS, to provide.

Due to the recent poor management we are where we are. I beleive that the Airline Group are only too well aware that the management are responsible for this fiasco. They are also well aware that the ONLY people that can help sort out this godawful mess are the staff.

I have noticed a distinct change in managements attitude. Have you? Confrontation with the staff seems to be out, and consultation in. This must surely be a welcome change? For instance have you heard Mr. Cheese and Ham putting both feet in his mouth recently? No. His prouncements have been recognised as a liabilty by TAG.

Durring this 100 day period TAG are really turning over the stones and seeing what has crawled out. Many managers who blithely accepted individual contracts are starting to wish they hadn't. Their nemesis has arrived, in the form of TAG, without the need for IPMS to put the boot in.

NATS needs all it's operational staff to function, extra days are required to make it function well. This will be the case for some time to come (four years?) NOBODY is being asked to do anything against their will after all. The extra days are not being given to a select few, and TAG are all too well aware of our aspirations for the next pay round.

To sum up then, no I don't feel at all let down. IPMS have been commendably pragmatic and have got a deal that helps everyone. I have no desire for "revenge" on the past management, TAG are taking care of that.

Will I being doing extra days? Probably not, as the time off is more valuable to me, but I personally do not resent those that do. It's their choice.

Do I want to have a say in our future?, damn right I do. You're not gonna get that by standing back and living in the past.

Rgds BEX.

[Applycarbheat]

Well..........
What can I add to this thread ?

.......Absolutely nothing !

Excellent posts by "Overload, 2 six 4 & Bex"

How refreshing to see some common sense posts and constructive dialogue.

Regards
ACH

[Big Nose1]

Great post Bex. It is good to see the regular anti-Union post blown out of the water before it has gained momentum. Many ATCO`s are fed up with the continuing delay to NERC, it is time we got down there to sort it out. Read the posts from Scott in the US about how they have changed the original systems designed by the "project specialists ". IPMS does a reasonable job most of the time, a little more support from it`s members would make things even better.

[Hobbes_the_Tiger]

Personally I'd kill for some extra attendances, think of all that extra tuna I could buy!

Seriously though guys, remember that there are a lot of other units out there that will never get a sniff off the money that you will be taking, while having to work harder to cope with the extra restrictions. It has a knock on effect for us all. I don't grudge you the wadges of cash (much :)), you are working harder to get it, just think of us poor mortals who won't even get a sniff. As has been posted you have a choice don't go, don't get the cash or roll over, get your belly tickled and pocket the mullah. After all us ATCO's have been doing that for years, even when we have had management over a barrel on many issues. Why change the habits of a lifetime?

Take the money and run guys, make hay while the sun shines, etc etc. Just stop whining about it!

[250 kts]

I wasn't indicating that I wasn't happy with the situation. It's just that I,ve heard the word "scab" banded about at the few who have done extra duties, one of the main complaints being that there was little consultation outside the local IPMS committee.
Also management in their infinite wisdom seem to be intent on not sticking to the letter of the agreement,even though they must know that this has put the local reps in a tricky situation.
Away from LATCC, do other NATS units ever work extra OPERATIONAL duties?

[Findo]

250kts and others. Some sensible posts and questions raised. If we have a strong management they deserve a strong Union. That way they can be complimentary rather than confrontational. The only way the Union will remain strong is if it's members have some grasp on reality and accept when deals and compromises are appropriate.

Interesting you ask about ATCOs doing extra operational shifts. Why the difference ?

I think you will find that there are quite a few NATS units where ATCOs have been doing extra operational duties for years. What they have been paid is rather a mystery. You will also find lots of operational ATCOs doing exceedingly good non operational work in addition to their operational time. There are quite a number of non operational ATCOs who will also do extra time covering operational staff for precious little, if any, reward.

:eek:

[torpids]

Excellent responses. Now I understand what
you are all about.
Its amazing how a question about whether
you should be taking the extra money stirred you all up to respond in such positive
terms towards the new management.
It seems to motivate you all so well.
Oh, and by the way, cheese and ham may have
a sock in his mouth, but all of the old
management are still there. Still, you
seem happy as long as they are quiet and
don't interfere with negotiations for
additional payments.

[overload]

Torpids

I can see that your very unhappy with the concept of additional attendance’s, but I’m still not quite sure why.

How are we “selling out” and becoming “part of the lie” by taking additional attendances?

Why does doing additional attendance’s preclude us from “caring about reality and honesty”

What aspects of it are giving you sleepless nights?

Is the main problem that we missed a “golden” opportunity to give management a good kicking over their past incompetence.


I suspect my last comment is closest to the mark, is it?

[250 kts]

My real fear is that we are now in a weaker position when it comes to the future WP negotiations, despite the ring-fencing of the deal.
Would we really be able to claim fatigue/tiredness precludes us from doing more duties long term having agreed to do them for a short period of time, or does this open the door to the AG for long term additional attendances as part of the normal roster? :confused: :confused: :confused:

[torpids]

oh dear overload, you really do miss the
point don't you. I would hardly have
sleepless nights worrying about
management a...s being kicked. Just handling day to day ongoing and serious problems
which are not being addressed is usually enough.
However, hats off to 250 kts - he spotted
a very serious fly in the payments ointment.

[overload]

250 kts

Fair point, and the only valid reason I can see for refusing to do extra duties. It’s also just as possible that our refusal to co-operate would in itself lead to a review of our working practices, without the elements of being optional, and paid extra.

It’s really impossible to know how things will pan out, but the overall additional attendances so far I’ve seen at Latcc are fairly minimal, don’t know about NTT, but I would argue strongly with a management that stated extra NTT duties showed that we have extra capacity in us, it’s in no way comparable to working live traffic.

The Airline Group are still going to need a hell of a lot of co-operation from us even when we get to Nerc, I really can’t see them spoiling for a fight.

The bottom line is were not doing the additional attendances to get management off the hook, but to try and get some stability back in our lives, and for a many, finish with long range-long term commuting, and that won’t happen until Nerc opens.

I think it’s worth the risk.

[overload]

torpids

Yeah, you’re right, I did miss your point, what exactly was it?

[Not Long Now]

Additional attendances aside, I do feel let down by IPMS about the supplementary pay claim.
Lots of meetings and consultations nationwide and then ... well nothing actually.

[Big Nose1]

Yes tell us Torpids what exactly is your point, apart from long sentences and big words !
I quote
"You had a
golden opportunity to make the management
face up to the consequences of its own
inept actions."
Exactly how would we do this? What would we achieve? How would it improve things? Tell us what your solution would have been?

[250 kts]

The major benefit I see with this deal is that everyone knows what is being paid for a duty. For months we've seen people do duties on other watches,( obviously not including spins), and not knowing what they've been offered in return by a desperate management.

I also feel that "flexible" working by the NTT over the last few years has not helped the situation for the future.

I'm also not sure how we get around the fatigue argument when people were allowed to sell back DIL which were travel days allocated SPECIFICALLY to alleviate fatigue caused by long term commuting.People shouuld have been insisting that they be allowed to take these days, and if neccessary carry over additional AL days instead.

I do believe that we've established a generally good rate for the task, but would like to see a differential between an operational and non-op attendance-around an extra 30-40% would seem reasonable to me.

[MACC 29 all the time!!!!]

One thing all this extra money that you guys are getting does raise....when it comes to the pay negotiations they can hardly say there is no money avaiable can they!!!

I would also like to say that there have been some amazingly sensible and constructive posting on here!!!

2 six 4 in particular ;)

I'd kill to be able to earn that extra dosh, however when we come down to Nerc to help you guys out the best we get is a DiL, I'd rather have the money thanks!!!!

[250 kts]

MACC S29 etc,etc. It's simple to get the money---put in your request to get a transfer to LATCC-go on,do it today.

Yes you guys are shifting more traffic as a knock on effect, but it should only be to a maximum of the target sector flow, the level that you were or should have been trained to operate at. Any more and someone's not doing their job properly.ie . the TTC.

LATCC AC is in dire trouble at present, both in terms of service provision and morale. This deal has also led to some splits amongst the ATCOs.

The extra money is a ring-fenced deal that has been necessary for a specific reason due to the NATs managements' inability to listen to what they are being told by the workforce .If you don't want to do feed at NERC, just say sorry not available you're burying grandmother again!

[ 05 September 2001: Message edited by: 250 kts ]

[2 six 4]

250kts. I’m intrigued with your theory of the differential between operational and non operational value. Maybe you could fill us in with some rationale. :cool:

[250 kts]

OK rationale coming up. The sell back of days in lieu for OCT averaged out at £820 per day. A DIL could be accrued by spending a whole day at NERC or even just travelling down there on a day off. I don't think it is reasonable to compare this type of buy back of time directly with an additional operational duty at LATCC.

I also don't think that a non-op additional duty at NERC as an instructor should have the same rate as the operational duty.

These are only my own feeling on figures and are based on NATs level of desperation, but I feel that the rate should be around £550-£600 for the DIL and non-op duties and around £950-£1000 for the operational duties.

It is imperative that the price for additional operational duties be too high for them to become the norm or there will be no incentive to resolve the crisis.

[2 six 4]

Well as nobody else is going to challenge the rationale ...

This is the start of a slippery slope. A LATCC / NERC ATCO is paid according to their grade not what they do each day. Using your rationale do we see different rates for a "normal" day in the office versus the Ops room ? Lets take that a stage further. Do those with Clacton validations get more than those with LUS validations ? Or if you are multi valid what about paying you only for what you do on each shift ? work a busy sector and push through the traffic = bonus pay for the day !!

:eek: :eek: :eek:

[250 kts]

It may all be irrelevant soon as rumour has it that IPMS are about to pull the deal following one too many mistakes by management in the implementation of the deal.

I understand that people were used to cover sickness-strictly outside the agreement. Funny really that NATS would risk such a vital agreement in this way, or is a delay to NERC abouut to be announced and the workforce can be used as the scapegoats.
It certainly won't be CheeseandHam or Bill Semple based on the bonuses they got last year-between £30-£40k each-and I bet that was pensionable too!!!!!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

[overload]

250kts

I heard that rumour too, can’t see the rational behind the union “rules” though. The reason we can’t cope with sickness is the number of people that have to be deployed to Nerc. Take them out the equation and sickness isn’t a problem.

Typically on any duty between 5 and 9 staff are off watch either at Nerc, or on mandatory days in lieu associated with Nerc. (Not including normal leave). It doesn’t seem important to me what shift or why the exact reason for the shortage dictates whether or not we provide cover, it still is Nerc cover at the end of the day.

There has been very little consultation from the union on this issue, they seem to be “winging” it without a clear rationale behind their thinking. Who thought up the “rules of engagement”, are they providing some real benefit to us that I’ve missed.


Without voluntary attendance’s, I reckon it’ll be another summer at Latcc,

Deep joy

[expediter]

overload

It is obvious that NATS are abusing an agreement which was struck to get them out of yet another hole!

The least they can do is to play by the rules, or face the consequences.

[Snellington]

Heheheheh

NATS are doomed, TAG is doomed.
Enjoy the ride!

[Mr Simple]

When I was a boss I wanted to get all the useless GMs at airports off their backsides and working - so hopefully TAG will grab them by the balls and make them re-validate their ATC ratings, or kick them out. Then again they keep half the airlines in business with frequent flyer trips to London meetings ....

Wouldn't you love to retrain your recalcitrant boss ?

Nominations..... :D

[MACC 29 all the time!!!!]

250 kts why would I want to do a stupid thing like that!! Happy where I am thanks! :p

You are missing the point!

Anyway thats an old argument now!

Anybody else thing the Union has become more secretive than the KGB lately, thought they were OUR union yet they won't tell us anything!!!