LATCC Training

[Baby Faced Finster]

Let me throw this into the pot and see what happens.


The training system at LATCC is in major need of an overhaul. It is outdated, adopts a negative approach to student training, and is supported by a portion of OJTIs who have not undergone any form of refesher training in living memory. Students are afraid to speak out if they have any problems, and if they do have difficulty in validating, then the system is too inflexible to cope with it. This results in many potential ATCOs being lost.

I will add the disclaimer that it is also supported by highly efficient and dedicated AJTIs, who are overburdened with the training commitment.

[Rad1]

Nothing much has changed in 20 years then?

Signed

A FAILED CADET

PS - Why only LATCC?

[expeditor]

I guess there's going to be a few chips on a lot of shoulders about this one :eek:

[ 11 July 2001: Message edited by: expeditor ]

[bill]

Baby Face: could you elaborate on what you see as the "negative approach to training", is this in AC, TC or both and what kind of issues are students afraid to speak out about?

[scoby]

I agree with Baby Face. The balance of power is massively skewed against the student, with no support network and no confidentiality at any level. If a trainee finds that they have a problem with a mentors style of training, or a problem with the training itself, then I reckon in most cases it's curtains for the student. What sort of a system is that?

Also, I think that this new system of target hours is flawed, and likely to have the opposite effect to the one intended (which is surely to increase pass rates). Trainee hours have been 'massaged' gently by students since the year dot, whereas now the mentor is even likely to talk up the number of hours (e.g. log 3.35 when only 3 have been worked, and perhaps only 2 of those usefully - what's the point of starting at 6am on a spin shift when there's no traffic?). As a result, 400+ hours is likely to be the norm, by which stage some students will be packing their bags for the North.

Altogether students get totally shafted, and that comes from a valid controller. Perhaps the recent trainee resignation in AC (and the reasons for it) will make some people sit up and think about how best to manage the system..........But it probably won't.

[Mr Chips]

Okay, interesting points, and I'm not going to argue. if you could elaborate, it may be possible to pass your concerns in the right direction.

If you really don't feel that you can talk to anyone on the watch (and I've heard that from someone quite "high up" recently) have you tried talking to the training section? Please walk up the stairs for a chat and perhaps some help.

[slurp]

no traffic at 6 am ? wonder where that is?..tell that to the West End ..

[scoby]

OK, everywhere except the West End to keep slurp happy. My point was about valuable or valueless training time. Would you keep a student on Lands End at 9pm on a saturday evening in order to achieve a training target, even if there were no training benefit to be had?

Me thinks perhaps you understood my point in the first place, but never mind, we're all impressed at how busy your sectors are now.

[Bewli-Begto]

Negative Approach??? Student`s afraid to ask?? I remember what it was like to be a trainee and I understand what my U/T`s are going through. All my trainees know that they can ask me anything - I`m not one of the stereotypical LATCC `fossils`! Us OJTI`s try and make the best of a situation that has been forced upon us and quite honestly, for ANYONE to validate at LATCC today is a terrific achievement to be really proud of, especially ab initios. It is also a credit to the dedication of the OJTI`s on the watches who, certainly as far as my watch is concerned, are all out to get the trainee through the process as smoothly as possible - with a bit of fun and humour along the way hopefully! PS, I wish I could start at 6.00am on a spin and sit round doing nothing!!! Cheers, BB.

[bill]

com'n baby face, give us something more to go on... I fully agree with bewli's comment about validating at LATCC now, I don't think I could and I'm only valid in single figures... in my opinion the "hardest" OJTIs are the youngest, why, I don't know, but every "senior" OJTI I've worked with has a manner and technique that I can only aspire to. Perhaps every UT should come to $ watch

[It's a Joke]

First off, I'd just like to say one thing to scoby, and the others who think they are hard done by these days.

It used to be the case that, having failed ONE exam at Bournemouth, you were given ONE resit, and that was that - OUT.

And, on reaching your OJT unit, you started out as the lowest of the low.......teaboy at best. NOTE, not the final unit, but the OJT unit.

Because back in those days, the PLUS side was that you had to validate each discipline before moving on to another.

On the old style "cadetship", it meant that - at the end of it - yes, you'd been though the mill, having a MUCH rougher time than now........but you were far more experienced, and validating at your final unit was a lot easier than it is now.

So yes.......swings and round-a-bouts.......and, as has already been said, my hat off to ab-initios who make the grade.

[scoby]

It's those instructors who reckon that things were much harder in their day (which, of course, traffic figures don't exactly support), who are partly responsible for the poor validation rates.

The idea that students ought to be grateful towards the process - as if it is somehow character building for those who eventually make it - sums up much of what needs to be addressed by our new leaders.

[BEXIL160]

It would be an interesting experiment to run a batch of "students" through an old style Cadetship and compare them with a control group who have tried the RGAT method.

I wonder which group would claim to have had the "tougher" time? Also, I wonder what the validation rate for them at LATCC would be?

I agree that "students" have a tough time when they come to LATCC and validating there is a BIG achievement (well done Gordo, FL310 applies via ETRAT as well!).

Rgds BEX

[It's a Joke]

Oh dear scoby.......

You do sound VERY bitter and twisted...........and at your age too ?


:p :p :p :p :p :p

[TrafficTraffic]

:rolleyes:

Dear Dear Me..... Back when I was a boy, and the sky was dark with DC3's......Perhaps Pheasant or Peasant or whatever would prefer everybody to take the bus or maybe train rather than disturb him and his Utopian ideas on training. If the sectors are spilt, combined, collapsed, bandboxed or rolled together and smoked in a joint get used to it. For goodness sake you want everybody to do it your way and complain that nobody understands you and how illtreated and hard done by you are. I can only assume the people coaching you are doing it with a genuine hope that you will rate, and rather than showing them respect and discussing it with them you whinge about it here. Well that is just great, you have put another strip holder in the board without checking it first. Grow up, the job is for big boys only (and girls), did any of you whingers have the guts to bring this up with your training section first?

[Flybywyre]

This had the makings of a decent thread until we arrived at the load of B******* posted above.
:rolleyes:

[Baby Faced Finster]

Well what can I say.
I had an idea that this topic might open up quite a dicussion. It is just a shame that some of those who posted have missed the point completely, and used bravado about the job, and a feeling of elitism to justify success.
I am not a LATCC trainee though I do speak from experience. Nor do I carry any chips on my shoulders (and what fine shoulders I have). I should clarify that I am talking about LATCC AC, and I apologise for not making that clear.
There have been many good points made here. It is encouraging that some have taken what I have said seriously, and feel they would like to make things better. I also respect the view (though I disagree with it)held by some that there is nothing to make better.
The fact remains however that there is a system of training at LATCC (AC) where indivuduals fail, and then go on to succeed at other units. Is it because the other units are less complex or quieter? I would have to say no. Is it because they have already gained so many hundreds of hours at LATCC and so use that experience to validate elsewhere. If this is the case then why did they fail in the first place?
I feel there are a number of problems
1....Students are given the impression from day one that they need to work damn hard to succeed, and that if they are lucky they will. They already know this, and certainly do not need reminded of it every day they turn up for work.
2....Some active LATCC AC OJTIs are simply not up to the job of instructing. I will add though that many more do a commendable job.
3.....The number of trainees in the system is excessive, and to wait upwards of 2 year to commence live training is simply unacceptable.
4......Trying to instruct trainees on some of the more complex sectors, and expect them to succeed as a first validation is unacceptable. They should be trained on the less complex sectors, and then when they have gained experience and confidence, they should be trained on the more complex sectors.
There can be no justification for suggestions of LATCC being the "best of the best". It is one of many excellent ATS providers in the UK.
There is a well known presentation given by the College of ATC in Bournemouth for OJIs where the point is made, if too many students are falling through the net and failing to achieve the desired standard, is it the fault of the trainee or the training system?

[bill]

baby faced: thanks for the clarification and expansion of your thoughts.

Some of my thoughts re your post:

1. Your point about those failing at LATCC then validating elsewhere; most people I've seen in this situation have had the potential but just couldn't make the final push at LATCC and have usually been trained by a range of OJTIs who cannot be all bad, can they? I in my view most of these UTs could handle the complexity and volume of traffic some of the time, but not all and these days the traffic at LATCC can be relentless and that's a major factor in why they fail.
2. Students do have to work damm hard to succeed, in what ways are they reminded everyday they turn up? I don't dispute your view but I've never seen or been on the receiving end of this, even during the dodgy stages in my training.
3. OJTI's not up to the job. Perhaps not, but why not request discreetly not to be rostered with a particular OJTI... not as radical as it may sound, I know of two valid controllers on different watches who asked and it did not affect their career. You make the point about the CATC course for OJTIs, in my opinion that should be looked at as it is woefully inadequate.
4. Training on complex sectors, just my opinion but is there any less complex sector these days? I would say train and get experience at less complex and busy units first.
5. Of course LATCC is the best of the best ;)
6. Your final point about is it the fault of the trainee or the system; not so long ago a certain training establishment was apparently recoursing vast numbers of trainees in order to meet the numbers required by operational units. Perhaps letting through some candidates who shouldn't?

Finally, our record may be in need of improvement but not everyone is going to succeed, unfortunately (and I'll probably get shot down in flames for this) there are trainees who will never ever make it even if they had a million hours and the best OJTIs availible.

[Rad1]

I'm glad my earlier post - even if it was intended to be tongue in cheek - gave expeditor something to feel superior about but I must support Baby Face on the more serious points that have been made.

I did not go to LATCC as a cadet so my comments are based on my personal experience of training/trainers and on the second-hand comments of those I've known go through the mill (some successfully, others not) at LATCC.

Baby Face asks the fundamental question, 'Why is it that so many cadets fail to make the grade at LATCC/NATS units, but ultimately go on to work successfully elsewhere?'.

True, some of them simply weren't up to high density traffic environments - but what's wrong with that, if someone is a whizz at LATCC they're going to be bored at a regional airport (and I mean no disrespect to anyone at a regional airport). Some, though, have now ended up at LATCC and LL or are working in other equally demanding places throughout the world. Why, with all the resources available to NATS, do they 'discard' so many half trained people?

Certainly, to some extent, it's because OJTIs are not necessarily selected because of their suitability for or desire to train others. This is a general point, perhaps more valid outside NATS than within, but it is often seen as a way (probably the only way) to get a bigger number on the payslip - and if that means having to put up with trainees, then so be it. Sometimes controllers are sent on OJTI courses because of seniority - does someone make a good trainer because they've been doing it themselves for years? I think not.

Having said all that, I would echo BFF's view that some OJTIs are excellent .... but shouldn't they all be?

Are there just too many trainees in the system? Well it certainly looks like it - but, looking at the big picture, what is the option? There's already a shortage and there can be no-one left who doubts that there really is a retirement bulge on the horizon.

My own experience of trainers in my early days ranged from one guy who seemed simply to want to lure me into making daft decisions and then to undermine what little confidence I had (and I make a clear distiction between that and allowing a trainee to learn from mistakes and offer constructive comments) to another who enjoyed teaching and gained satisfaction from imparting not just knowledge but skills. What we need is more of the latter.

[bill]

just for information: in the UK it takes approximately 5 months to train to be a car driving instructor and to be a DOT driving examiner requires a 7-8 week residential course...
UK ATCO, 5(?) days at college to be an OJTI, similar amount to be an examiner and half a day to be an assessor...