EC120

[Nomads]

Hi folks,
I am interested to find out if there are any ec120 pilots out there.
Like to hear their reaction in regards to handling and /or quirks if there are any.
Also like to find out what kind of work you're doing.
Cheers.

[Chopperbopper]

Hi

The EC120 is a great aircraft to fly. To give a brief overview, it's the best of both the gazelle and single squirell put together.

We are still awaiting for it to be placed on our AOC (April) and then it will be out for charter. With me flying it "I hope".

[whatsarunway]

just overheard that an ec 120 crashed in dublin about 3 weeks ago jammed pedals or something any gen??

[greenarrow]

It was a mobile phone that had slid forward and fell down into the lefthand footwell and jammed the pedals.I hear that there is a mod being produced to stop this? ( back to the breezeblock phones!)

[Fortyodd]

Suggested amendment to Pre take off checks:-
"mobile phones switched off AND STOWED!"

[Nomads]

Hi Folks,
Trying to find out who on this forum flies an
EC 120?
I am flying one in Holland at the moment.
Thanks ;)

[Vortex what...ouch!]

I don’t fly one, yet! I am going to convert onto one at the end of this month, first week in October.

Any info you could give me on how it flies, things to look out for on the checks etc. would be very useful.

Presently flying the B206 so it will be a nice jump up to a more modern aircraft.

How do you like flying it?

[Nomads]

Hi Vortex,
Took awhile to respond but had a few technical dificulties this end.
However, I've flown the EC120 since January last year and it is a pleasure to fly. The aircraft I flew before this was a Schweizer 330 and it was like going from a VW to a BMW.
I have had a software problem with the VEMDE but nothing drastic. The Vemde gives a generator failure while there is nothing wrong with it.
The thing I have to watch out for is, not to fly to close to radio or transmitter stations, because it seems to influence the vemde somewhat and it gives a rotor overlimit everytime this happens.

I find it handles well and I enjoy flying it.
Safe flying ;)

[Nomads]

Hi Folks,

I'm trying to get in contact with any Eurocopter 120 operators in the UK, could anyone help me out?
Thanking you in advance.

Safe Flying ;)

[Pac Rotors]

I was on a flight in Asia last week and was sitting next to Colin McRae the rally driver. He was telling me has an EC-120 that he keeps at Aberdeen. Flies it a lot through Europe etc when he can.

[Nomads]

Thanks Pac rotors,
Do you by the way know what the situation on the EC 120 is in Oz? :)

[ppheli]

There are 14 EC120s registered in the UK, of which 5 are resident outside UK shores - and I'm including McRae's in that which is usually to be found at Palma/Son Bonet in Mallorca. The main commercial operators in the UK are Cabair with 2 and McAlpine with 2. The others are privately operated. Thera are a further 3 in Eire.
.
JetRanger sales haven't been the same since the EC120 arrived, and no-one's surprised at that!

[Pac Rotors]

I know there are a few over there. Here in New Zealand there are three, with a couple more possibles coming in. Faram Helicopters has just got one that they will be using on utility work which I think will be one of the first used outside the charter and executive fields.

[Nomads]

Thanks PPheli for that info.
Do you know where the Irish 120's are based? :)

[ppheli]

The Irish ones are..

EI-EUR at Dublin (op by Eurojet Ireland)
EI-IZO at Carlow
EI-MIK at Oranmore
:)

[t'aint natural]

EC120 G-ECZZ is privately owned, and is maintained and commercially operated by London Helicopter Centres at Redhill 01737 823514. Anything you want to know about the EC120s, go to David Lewis or John Osmond at McAlpines at Oxford - they've sold 17 of them.

[Heliport]

AMERICAN EUROCOPTER - PRESS RELEASE

Grand Prairie, TX
Airborne Law Enforcement Services (ABLE), representing the joint powers authority for Newport Beach and Costa Mesa, CA, took delivery of their second new EC120 helicopter December 10, 2001 in Grand Prairie, Texas.

The aircraft will be used primarily for law enforcement patrol service and surveillance work but may also support fire department needs. ABLE’s fleet conversion to Eurocopter helicopters marked the end of their three years of research on helicopter products. “The support, information and enthusiasm that Eurocopter commits to the law enforcement industry made us realize that this was definitely the company that we wanted to do business with,” reports Lieutenant Bureau Commander Bob Oakley. He listed configuration, capability, visibility, comfort, quietness, and equipment options as some of the primary reasons the EC120 was chosen for their law enforcement needs. “We are confident that the EC120 not only meets our needs today, but will also serve us well throughout the next century as Eurocopter continues to develop and support this product,” comments Oakley.

Eurocopter is a wholly-owned subsidiary of EADS (European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company)

[Nomads]

Hi Folks,. .. .I am trying to find out what operators besides Mc Alpine utilise the Eurocopter EC 120 in the UK.. .Your help would be appreciated.. .Thanking you in advance.. .Safe Flying.. . . . <small>[ 13 March 2002, 05:01: Message edited by: Nomads ]</small>

[Robbo Jock]

I think CABAIR do.

[Nomads]

Thanks Robbo Jock,. .. .According to Mc Alpine there must be about 15 EC 120's in the UK mainly with private operators but there must also be several with company operators.. .Contacted Cabair and they have 2.. .Thanks again.. . . . <small>[ 12 March 2002, 13:38: Message edited by: Heliport ]</small>

[Heliport]

There are 17 EC120's on the UK Register.. .. .The CAA's website lists them all. <a href="http://www.caa.co.uk/srg/aircraft_register/ginfo/search.asp" target="_blank">Click here</a>. .. .You asked the same question this time last year? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" />. . . . <small>[ 12 March 2002, 21:01: Message edited by: Heliport ]</small>

[Helinut]

I believe that Aeromega at Stapleford also now operate the EC120.. .. .In the UK, most EC120s will be privately owned, even if they are operated commercially via a lease arrangement as well.. . . . <small>[ 13 March 2002, 13:44: Message edited by: Helinut ]</small>

[ppheli]

Aeromega hangar one, but are you sure they operate it?

[farrari]

Does any one fly this , if so how do you find it any comments would be welcome.:p

[Off road]

Hi farrari,

I've been flying the EC120 in a corporate role in Europe for the last 2 years and find it a good machine to fly in the role we use it for.

Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity ;)

[Off road]

Well Farrari, there don't seem to many 120 pilot s on this website
Where about are you flying or are you going to fly?
:)

[farrari]

Off Road , i am not a roto pilot just B777 for CO, however i seem to be getting an interest in choppers and hope to do my licene this year for fun, must be that mid life thing:p

[whatsarunway]

ec 120
i have been flying them for two and half years now,
excellent helicopter
very quiet
very safe
very good looking
very easy to fly
very very very long wait for the eurocopter guys to get back to you if there is a problem

i just hope they sort out the customer back up, even up to half the standard of bells customer service would be fantastic

ah well i suppose it could be worse!!! Agu**a



Ciao
:)

[ushka]

Hi,
I'm thinking about buying an EC120 and was wondering if any of you had any first hand experience with this helicopter. I would be mainly using it for personal use and a little charter use.

I was wondering about the operating cost compared to that of the 206B.

thanks for your comments.

ushka.
:p

[Hone22]

Well the EC 120B is touted as the 206 killer, I gotta admit they are a nice bit of kit.

No bulkhead in the cabin, Swish panel with VMED (now they gotta start puttin those in all helo's, must be great to have the ac tell ya there's enough power for the landing site).

Good clean lines, comfy seating, nice quiet shrouded TR, decent cruise speed, now all the need to do is pack a few more horses up under the bonnet.

Bring on the D model.:D

40C & 2000 AMSL the 206 at half the price wins hands down.

[Off road]

Hi Hone,

Whereabout are you flying the EC 120?

Some time ago I tried to find out if there were any others on the forum flying the 120 but to no avail except for one pilot over in Ireland.

I have been flying the 120 for the last 2 years in a corporate role.
I reckon it is a wonderful machine, like to get do some utility work in a 120 one day.

Safe flying
Off road
:)

[Anton van Dellen]

STAR in Durban are flying a 120 in HEMS role, moved there after it was based at Pietersburg. Doubt it has the stamina for mountain rescue work in the area, but they seem pretty happy with it.:cool:

Here are your pictures Anton - Helidrvr

http://pprune.homestead.com/files/VaD_1.jpg

http://pprune.homestead.com/files/VaD_2.jpg

http://pprune.homestead.com/files/VaD_3.jpg

[Anton van Dellen]

Sorry, sent a batch across to Helidrvr - first pic is not the STAR heli, but was a combined exercise with the Police heli, second two are the STAR heli (Echo 4).

[Gibbo]

Don't know about 206 killer yet Hone22, but the EC120 is quite nice but definately needs more guts.

Airconditioning is ESSENTIAL if you are in Aust or anywhere the OAT rises above 20 degrees (c). The blower fan is useless without a/c and there is stuff all ventilation.

That aside it is a really stylish pax machine and is pretty functional for film (weight limits aside). The boot is huge.

Have a fly of one if you get the chance, it is so easy to start you may think that you have missed some steps.:D

Gibbo

[Off road]

Hi Gibbo,

Would you have any contacts, operators that use an EC 120, for me in Oz?
As an expat living in the low countries, having flown the EC 120 for 2.5 years now, I am looking at returning to Oz preferably flying an EC 120 if I can.
Any info is welcome.
Cheers,
Off road:)

[Hone22]

No stick time, only been allowed to drool in the vicinity (then ordered off smartly once the saliva problem was noticed, ohh the leather upholestry:D :D ).


Two based in Canberra. One private ac owned by the Airport operator.


One on lease and operated by Canberra Helo's (Have'nt seen a blade turned in anger yet).



Bloke I know flew the private machine occasionally (yep got the air con +++ all the other extra's). Had mentioned the lack of Grunt on hot/high days (Canberra's at 1800ft AMSL and during the summer temps are around 30+ most days).

I know of an ag operator in NZ bought one (errr I don't think it was for ag work though-:p - maybe he was moving to the corporate stuff???)

Anyway a logging ship ran aground and the 120 with grapple was used to unload some of the timber (+a heuy from the same operator). Would be interesting to see the fuel/load figures for that op.

[Hone22]

Thanks for the pics Anton.

any more info on the 120 (Echo 4) would be appreciated.


I wonder how it will handle the EMS role, with the enivitable creep as far as mission equipment weight is concerned in this capacity.


What sort of D-Alts/Temps.........etc do you normally see over the summer?

[Gibbo]

Offroad

I have been flying a couple of privately owned machines through a Sydney operator. Send me an email and I will fill you in on the details. Your email is blocked through the forum.

Gibbo

[the coyote]

Off Road,

I think The Helicopter Group and Microflite in Moorabbin operate them.

[Off road]

The coyote:

Would you have any contact details for me on these companies, it would be greatly appreciated.

Gibbo:

I´ll contact you by email shortly, thanks.
Cheers,
Off road:)

[Anton van Dellen]

Echo 4 flys with a doctor and paramedic, day-light hours only, based at a Level 1 trauma centre, Umhlanga Hospital. Split crews and finances between state and private.

Based at sea level. Temps in the low 30s (celcius) in summer with very high humidity.

Operational area extends to Drakensberg mountain range, which goes up to about 10,000 feet, need to refuel to get there and back from primary base.

Medical kit is fairly standard, weight-wise and similar to the UK.

Reg.: ZS-RLP.

Quote from a medical report: "Despite appropriate patient positioning, the severely limited cabin space requires that aggressive airway management be undertaken [on scene before loading] if any doubt exists as to the integrity of the patient’s airway."

Anton :cool:

[Nomads]

Hi Rotorheads,

After a stint on the continent returning back to the UK.

Has anyone got any leads for possible EC 120 work anywhere in the UK.
I am flexible as I have made no arrangements to go anywhere specific in the UK.

Thanking you in advance.

Colibri:)

[MBJ]

Aeromega 01708 688361 and London Helicopters 01737 823514 operate them commercially.

[Nomads]

Hi Folks,

Anyone ever had an hydraulics failure on a EC 120 or other eurocopter?


Drive from transmission to hydraulic pump sheared off. Possibly due to cold weather.

Nomads
:(

[Nomads]

Well rotorheads,


That is good news then........

I know there are some ec 120 drivers out there, but apparently this hydraulic failure is not a common occurence.

Safe Flying;)

[Dynamic Component]

To all those out there with inside info- will we be seeing a EC120 B1 soon.(Meaning will they boost the power usable on them?)
Eurocopter did it with the EC155, why not do it to the 120?It would only do good to the machine.

[widgeon]

No longer in the loop , I am not sure if the EC120 is limited by transmission torque. EC155 B1 has better hot and high performance ( If I recall correctly ) but no increase in usable lift capacity at normal temps . Putting a more powerful engine will usually result in beefing up of the whole drive train not sure if they have delivered enough units to justify any large investments in upgrades.

a gruntled former employee.

[Dynamic Component]

Widgeon,

Yip, the 120 is limited on torque.
So is the 155B1 any better than the 155B? I have heard conflicting stories.You would think they would give you a good aircraft for $7mill.

[whatsarunway]

I think the idea was that if the 120 had more power available , it would compete too much with the as350 and affect sales , It is limited but still better than the 206!
;)

[chopperdr]

sirs: spoke with program mgr for the ec-120 at the show, as our products fly on almost all the law enforcement 120's the common complaint we hear is the need for more power when in law enforcement configuration. eurocopter is well aware of the need to upgrade the transmission to accept more power, but as widgeon mentioned i think this will come with time as witnessed by the growth in power on the as-350. i do not believe the market share loss to the 350 is really an issue, at least from a law enforcement viewpoint, rather a noise issue, therefore the ec-130 and md 520 are more likely to be considered the competitors.
IMHO, eurocopter must upgrade the power or market share will be lost to other mfg, in particular robinson if they move forward on a turbine light single and or MD, if they make it through the next year they will be a very strong company.

[widgeon]

Hey cal thought you were planning to put a RR donk in one !!!!

[chopperdr]

widgeon: cant get one over on you, i think a pw 200 series in the 120 would make for a very serious helicopter that would without question become the industry standard for light single turbine, can only wish. missed your smiling face in dallas, good show, and have agreed with aec to supply side mount to the factory, looks as though edmonton will convert as well.

[Flytest]

The EC120 has a main rotor rpm speed sensor mounted in the MRGB, it is a phonic wheel type system. Can anyone tell me if the output signal generated is a 1 pulse / rev signal, or is it a straight frequency / voltage output?

Also, does the phonic wheel have a master tooth, and if so what is the physical position of the main rotor when the master tooth is lined up with the sensor?

[NickLappos]

Flytest,

As a general rule, the rotational speed pickups are magnetic sensors that have wound coils and a central iron core. They are mounted so that the tip passes within a fraction of an inch (perhaps .040") from a gear that is mechanically tied to the main rotor. This gear has N teeth, so the waveform that the probe sends out is an N per revolution sine wave. The electronics are basically a counter circuit (digital these days, analog in older models) that converts the wave form into a number for the tach. There is usually a smothing term in the processing to account for slight changes in signal strength due to variations in the tooth position, where a closer passing tooth causes a much stronger signal. Development usually involves adjusting this processing, and also making gross adjustments of the probe to set its standoff distance for a clean strong signal. The probe is often a dual wound coil, so that two signals can be had (in Sikorsky's, we pass a different signal to each pilot, for some redundancy).

Here is one description of a phonic wheel system (it was the first hit of a Yahoo search for, strangely enough, "phonic wheel speed sensor"). Note that the software requires you to input the pulses per revolution and the wheel circumference, so that the software can know the frequency range and speed of the teeth, part of the smoothing processing:

http://www.evosport.com/product/images/racing/aim/catalogue/Velocity.pdf

Here is an even more technical report. Note that Anti-Lock Breaking Systems use these sensors to measure wheel speed differences:

http://www.cedrat.com/applications/Packs/ProximitySensors/Speed%20sensor%20on%20phonic%20wheel-2.pdf

[Mikeb]

An EC120 rolled over during hover taxi/landing at Swansea airport. No major injuries.

More info : BBC News (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/3251349.stm)

[Thomas coupling]

Try a twin Squirrell :oh:

[Autorotate]

TC - Do you mean it was an AS355 that rolled over, or that you should try and roll over an AS355 because it rolls better :confused:

:E

[John Bicker]

EC 120 in the Beeb picture though!

[Autorotate]

Looked at the pics on the news website and definately EC120 on its side.

:E

[Thomas coupling]

I swear when I checked Mikeb's link the picture showed a squirrell. Coupled with the fact that someone just rang me and told me that a twin squirrell had just 'stoofed' in S wales.

I look again, now at the link, and the bloody picture has been changed...honest, guv!

[sycamore]

"Bit late on the collective,Hoskins"

[Mikeb]

It was definitely an EC120 Reg EI-IZO. It’s registered to Cloud 9
Helicopters ltd, Co Carlow Ireland.

Rumour has it that he clipped the apron as he was hovering to park after a rotors running re-fuel…. Apparently there are a few extra holes in the hangar and some cars in the car park were hit with flying debris. Two Cessna training aircraft were also hit with debris.

[Hoverman]

I know old TC gets off his trolley sometimes but I can't let people think he's finally lost his marbles especially now he's a TV star. ;)The BBC had a photo of a twin Squirrel and changed it.

[Thomas coupling]

Phew thanx HM. Don't know if I like the sound of 'old' though:)

[JoBurg]

No surprise there then.
That contact of yours let you down again TC ?
You should always check your info. before gobbing off.
Still easy mistake to make, one crashed Eurocopter disintegrates very much like another.
Lucky it wasn't a 135 or the casualties might have been higher.

[Matelot B'stard]

2 quick points.. I was at Swansea on Saturday, don't know how the crash occurred, but the aircraft appears to have covered quite a reasonable distance on its side, judging by the witness marks on the tarmac, and secondly.. I noticed Griff Rhys Jones having a flying lesson down there.. somebody be sure to tell him thats not how to land a helo, not even for comedy factor:p

[MightyGem]

That was hardly called for Joburg.

[Dynamic Component]

Let's guess what JoBurg flys:rolleyes:
Does it start with a B and hang in a church tower:hmm:
Have to agree with MightyGem:ouch:

[Thomas coupling]

Dynamic: It's even funnier than that. [Rhymes with Buster!].
Secondly, he's not even a pilot:confused:

[The Nr Fairy]

I was lucky to get a tour of the AAIB hangars today, as part of the SHAG day held in Farnborough by the CAA.

The EC120 in question is there, the cabin area is substantially intact, by which I mean it was on its skids, a few broken windows, dangling panels and missing tailboom, but no apparent damage to the seats or seat structure.

Some mention was made of a known pitch authority/cyclic margin issue at forward CG with a tailwind, and apparently there's a mod to add a weight in the tailboom. Anyone more experienced on EC120s confirm the veracity of the comments ?

As a result of seeing the interior, I was minded to ask if anyone knows what crashworthiness features are built into the B206 ?

[t'aint natural]

I was there too, Fairy... perhaps we met. There ought to be some special sub-Masonic greeting by which ppruners can recognise each other.
Most sobering, I found, was the molten wreckage of Steve Hislop's R44; CFIT, apparently.

[James Roc]

Spoke with the usual pilot of that craft today, he wasn't piloting at the time but his information as backed up by investigators and insurance is the unfortunate occurance of a Fenestron tail rotor stall!

[The Nr Fairy]

James:

Is this the mythical "Fenestron stall" which in any other type is labelled LTE, and for which the prevention and cure is thinking ahead ?

I'm not trying to cast stones - it's just a) we had a discussion about this some while ago and it seems LTE/FS is avoidable, b) cos it was mentioned on Tuesday as being included soon in the PPL(H) syllabus (and, one hopes, the CPL syllabus) and c) I write from a position of inexperience in these matters.

[155 Man]

I see the old chestnut of Fenestron stall raising its ugly head again. I thought this had been thrashed out long ago. Extensive trials by Eurocopter and independently by Boscombe Down have shown that it is possible to regain control after so-called Fenestron stall. Nr Fairy is right to say that this phenomenon is now more accurately referred to as Loss of Tail Rotor Authority. The trials showed that even at extremely high rates of rotation it was possible to regain control by applying full opposite pedal and keeping it applied. The rate of rotation always (even if it sometimes took a while) reduced and eventually stopped. And these trials were conducted on the Gazelle with the older, less efficient feneston. The new generation fenestrons on newer Eurocopter products (EC 120, EC 130, EC 135, EC 155) all take advantage of developments to improve both the efficiency and the noise signature.
Unfortunately, I think that if this accident was caused by loss of tail rotor authority, then it was almost certainly avoidable.

PS I think the Boscombe Down report may be available to the public. Anyone know of any sources?

[Thomas coupling]

Lets get serious here. Can anyone honestly believe that there is a company out there producing a helicopter with a known aerodynamical problem, after all the hassle from the last batch of incidences???

Is there an AAIB report imminent on this one (if no-one is hurt)?

If so, let's see what that comes up with, but I very much doubt whether that 'old chestnut' will be the cause.

[headsethair]

Nr : "b) cos it was mentioned on Tuesday as being included soon in the PPL(H) syllabus (and, one hopes, the CPL syllabus)"

I think what the CAA said at the SHSS was that LTE has always been in the syllabus, but they are about to re-emphasise it. They pointed us all to AIC 70.00 and LASORS SS17.

LTE is about to be mentioned in the report about the 206 filming accident at Hadrian's Wall, May 30th. Having to go downwind to get the shot is no excuse.

Robinson do a specific session on LTE in their safety course - the military films are comedic, but the explanations are good.

As the CAA said to us, LTE is hardly mentioned in UK training books - but if you get the US books there's plenty on it.

[The Nr Fairy]

A quick search came up with this UK accident report (http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_avsafety/documents/page/dft_avsafety_500862.hcsp) which refers to the Boscombe Down report.

Someone I know who has lots of time on Gazelles says that in the military, the non-SAS aircraft never exhibited this phenomenon - anyone know different ?

TC:

The AAIB report may well be out in some months, but seeing as the accident happened on the 7th October, I think you're showing your optimistic side.

[Helipolarbear]

As the CAA said to us, LTE is hardly mentioned in UK training books - but if you get the US books there's plenty on it.

That is because of the relevent LTE experience which became a major safety discussion for OH-58 helicopter pilots particularly, and US military heli pilots in general back in the late 70's and early 80's. Fenestron Stall amounts to the same basic aerodynamic anti- torque profile.
Concerning this particular case, I doubt that an unresolved aerodynamic factor was the catalyst or main contributory cause to the destruction of the helicopter. What speaks volumes is the crash survivability design. Amazing that ther were no serious injuries or loss of life! ;)

[Woss goin on..?]

Yes, EC120 has a forward CG issue....you cannot be in CG limits if loaded up and there is a mod around to correct this. Weight under the battery initially then weight in the end of the tail.

However, is LTE any different from any other aerodynamic problem that we learn about and deal with ie Vortex/Settling with Power, Ret Blade stall etc etc.

Sounds like 'LTE/Fenestron stall' = a cop out excuse for a handling error.

[Letsby Avenue]

Nr – The non SAS Ac are used extensively by the AAC and I have to admit we have crashed a fair few through tail rotor handling errors - the corrective actions for which, have been accurately described above. In the early days there were a few egotistical types who tried to baffle the rest of us with their wacky theories on ‘Fenestron stall’, I still remember standing in the hangar with about 20 other people while a certain prat waffled on about this and that and when he had finished, people started clapping! I couldn’t help thinking at the time; “This blokes talking b*ll*cks”. I got nice warm feeling a few weeks later when Boscombe Down stated that the so-called phenomena categorically did not exist.

[Flying Lawyer]

This is an excerpt from the AAIB Bulletin that Nr Fairy mentioned. Gazelle yaw characteristics

In the majority of civil and military cases, loss of yaw control occurred in the hover or at low forward speed in light winds from the right. A few occurred in stronger winds or with wind from the left.
Both inexperienced and highly experienced pilots were involved in the military accidents and loss of control of pitch and roll during the subsequent high rates of rotation was a commonfeature. An 'optimised fenestron' was fitted to military Gazelles in the early 1980s as part of a weight upgrade programme.
The optimised fenestron had revised duct and hub fairings but did not appear to improve the incidence of sudden loss of yaw control.

The sudden loss of yaw control was attributed to 'fenestron stall'and, in response to concern, the Ministry of Defence (MOD) sponsoreda trial by the manufacturer, Eurocopter France, to investigate the phenomenum.

The trial took place in 1992/93 and demonstrated that, in conditions of low natural wind, a relatively small left pedal input of 5% (of total pedal travel) from the hover position can result in a yaw rate of 150°/sec being achieved in 10seconds.
It also showed that high yaw rates to the left (165°/sec)can be rapidly arrested by application of full right pedal without any tendency for aerodynamic stall of the fenestron.
The MOD advice included a statement that the extremely rapid build up of yaw rate in these circumstances was exacerbated if the SASwas not engaged.

The MOD trial did not establish why a small pedal input can result in the rapid build up of very high yaw rates. However, an earlier study, in 1991, by Westland Helicopters Limited had suggested that the trigger mechanism might involve a coupling of fenestron rotor induced swirl with the circulation contained in the main rotor tip vortices which may become aligned with the fenestron in certain flight conditions.
The study also suggested that considerationshould be given to changing the direction of rotation of the fenestron to become top-blade-aft which would probably solve the interactional aerodynamic problem.
Subsequent fenestron-equipped helicopters such as the SA365 Dauphin, EC135 and EC120 have top-blade-aft fenestron rotation; they are not known to suffer from sudden lossof yaw control.

[netjet]

i would like to know with a full tank of gas and 700 lbs for people
(3.5 people) how fast will these go
ec 120 is published at 127 knots
it that true or exaggeated?
also same situation for the 407 and as 350 bII and BIII
full fuel and 700 off people
how fast will thay cruse?
the jetranger your lucky to get 105 kts
thanks

[whatsarunway]

ec120 is about 120kts, unless its a dud one(lots of them around) then its more like 110kts

as350b2 is 125/130kts,

cant help you with the 407 or b3 , wish i could , all the power you could ever wish for!:uhoh:

[Dynamic Component]

Gotto agree with whatsarunway,

the 120 is around 120kts and the B2 differs depending on temp and alt.
We're at sea level and 25degC and the B2 does around 122kts when fully loaded.:E

[rotorboy]

Never been in an 120. The B2 with a full bag , and a hot day, 120 is pushing it , espically if you have floats or a bubble window, Lucky to get 105 then. B3 , mayby a little faster, same thing with the floats. Just performs a lot better at alt.

the 407 is quicker......

How about looking at an A119, fast, powerfull, plays up high very well, lots of room in the back.

RB

[GoodGrief]

EC120:
empty 1036 kg
pax 320 kg
fuel 320 kg

= 1676 kg, max Gross = 1715 kg ->98% loaded

got 105 to 110 kts out of it, need LONG rungway, running take off

407
empty 1335 kg
fuel 446 kg
pax 320 kg

= 2101 kg, max Gross = 2268 kg -> 93% loaded

getting 125 kts, enough power to go straight up!

[407 Driver]

GoodGrief, one can go to 5250 lbs (2381 KG) with ease, just have the applicable FMS onboard.
A standard fuel load is 860 lb (390 KG) or 2.0 hrs, so I assume you have aux tanks?
I always fly with a large ski basket and get approx 125 kts, see the pics of C-FALM below. We'd expect a bit more speed than that when flying a clean aircraft.
All this power and speed, plus an initial rate of climb at or near 2,000 fpm (@55kts, and depending on alt and temp)

http://img74.photobucket.com/albums/v226/dsmctighe/ALM_4.jpg

[Head Turner]

The A119 will cruise at 145 kts @ 90% TQ at 2720 kg but burn alot of fuel.
We normally flew at 68 - 70 % TQ again at MAUM and accepted 123 - 125 Kts, giving a range of 450 nms

[GoodGrief]

Here are today´s results:

empty 1337 kg
pax 300 kg
fuel 408kg
= 2045 kg

cruising between 1000 & 2000 ft MSL, QNH 1014 to 1016, oat 15 to 18° C

TQ 88%, TOT 705
gives speed 130 to 132 kts.

fuel burn = 363 pounds/h.

Yes, we drive the aux tank.pretty much mandatory in Germany because of high landing fees (up to €80 per landing ).

[407 Driver]

Pull that up to 94Q and/or 724 MGT and you'd be close to the 140 Kt Vne ! Is your fuel flow on a guage or estimated? I generally figure on 330 PPH, although we usually are cruising at 8000 to 10,000 ft.

[GoodGrief]

Hi!

363 pph is read from gage and confirmed by refueling.
we don´t really like driving the engine at max tq (93.5) or too hot.

how much do you pay for fuel ?
do you mind the vne chart at altitude ?

cheers

[407 Driver]

At 10,000' +10C Vne = 121 kts, but the GPS speed may equate to 130 Kts + depending on the wind.

We have a major fuel contract, I can't divulge the price, but when you buy over 4,000,000 Litres yearly, the pricing is quite attractive.

[3top]

Hi all,

let's see whether someone can help me out with a dilemma I am having with our EC120 - Arrius powered.

Since a short while I get a lot of temperature on the engine - T4.

Until recently the limitations where I fly (hot and humid) would come on as follows:
First Ng, second Torque, T4 would never get yellow as I would have to pull Ng past redline for that.
T4 goes yellow at 830ºC, normal max cruise would see never more than 780ºC.

Lately T4 is the primary limit, sometimes runnig out of yellow/red line befoe Ng gets close to yellow (at about 99.7 %).

So T4 runs anywhere from 35ºC at ground idle to 55ºC at max cruise OVER the regular temp at these levels.

The weird thing is, it does this at unregular intervalls.

I can tell right at start up when it will be running hot - ground idle would hover around 610ºC instead 565ºC.

Sometimes I would have 4-5 periods running hot, the same with normal temps.

It never changes once started up.
It seems like something gets stuck open or not. To much fuel I guess. My mechanic is already on the fritz with this.
Can't get an answer from Turbomeca without having their guys show up, which is a fortune!
So if anyone can give me a hint or had the same/similar experience, please shoot!
Otherwise we have no choice, but bite the lemon and get Turbomeca here.....

Thanks,

3top, :ugh:

[jellycopter]

3top,

Do you operate in a coastal area. If so you may have a build up of salt deposits on the compressor which may reduce its efficiency. Have you tried a compressor wash?

J

[3top]

Selfish,

with the broken thermocouple, did you have ANY temp indication?

Jellycopter,
yes, to the coastal area (Panama), and we wash the compressor all the time ( about every 10-15 hours, and especially when returning from a ocean trip or low coastal flying).
Besides this temp thing is not a gradual decay (like the compressor loosing efficiency) of temp margin, but it happens right at start-up.
It is NOT an overtemp on starting, everything under control.
But it feels to me there is some valve that gets stuck open (or not, when temps turn out to be fine), and T4 is higher than normal for the whole cycle. Sometimes it helps to shut down and restart, but if the T4 doesn't turn out "normal" after the 3rd time I would have to wait 1/2 hour for the next restart (according to POH). So normally, if I can get away with the higher temp without running red lines, I fly it.
I tell you, it is quite tricky to keep passengers cool!

3top
:uhoh:

[jellycopter]

3top,

Do you get a 'P2' light on the VEMD? J

[3top]

Jellycopter,
we hardly ever use P2. Too hot down here for that! But anyway I even tried it out in flight: T4 will hardly move in cruise -maybe some +5-10°C (if running hot or not doesn't matter, it will move about the same amount in either case). It will go down again when shut off, besides you really cannot miss the P2 indication on the screen.

Mr. Selfish,
I also believe if a thermo couple is out (or all of them) there shold be some indication about this or no T4 at all.

What you mean is the "Powercheck" and you get to it by scrolling down the screen:
first press, you change from FLI to 3 individual gauges
second press, you get the "Powercheck"
third press, you get the Weight&Balance screen
fourth press, back to FLI.

The Powercheck will indicate exactly what T4 does:
When T4 is normal I get a "good margin" (indicted by some negative T4 value)
If hot I get a "bad margin" (indicated, in my case, with some +35°C Margin)
Besides the software for thePowercheck is not that great yet.
We still get "bad torque margins", that's why Turbomeca came out with a correction table (paper :)) for the torque values....
However the T4 marging is a good indicator.

You know, if the engine would go sour one could follow up, as this normally happens gradually (" I used to be able to get out of here with 4 people instead of 2, before hitting redline, etc."

My case is different:
If I start with T4 normal, I have all the power there is (not enough, by the way!! EC are you listening!!), and T4 never even gets close to yellow before I hit redline with Ng.
If T4 starts hot, I hardly ever get yellow on Ng before going red with T4!

Yesterday I had 2 flights normal and T4 at max cruise would read from 750°C to 775°C. Next 3 flights were hot with T4 at 825°C with torque around 76% and Ng around 98.2%!! (850° for take off!)

I really wonder!
Supposedly a Turbomeca certified mechanic is to show up today. I hope he finds the bug!

Nevertheless, PLEASE keep suggestions coming, anyone knows any good freelance mechanics (Arrius engine, turbomeca certified)?

3top:(

[whatsarunway]

probably a stupid question but do you do your own fueling , there isn't a chance you have avgas in the tank

duck for cover:O

[frogspawn]

I would send a detailed account of your 'anomoly' to [email protected]
if he doesn't know what to do, he will know someone who does.

[3top]

Hi Frogspawn,

well I will give this man a try!

By now we had a tech from Turbomeca-Mexico here. We had all electric and electronic connections checked and cleaned - An anoying FLI failure went away, seems a dirty Torque sensor connection was the culprit.
Also found one badly worn thermocouple - promptly changed the whole harness:

GUESS WHAT: First 2 start-ups everything fine and perfect, ALL RIGHT!!:D :D

Started up today, BACK TO THE SILLY GAME!!:*

So I will write up that stuff and send it to the man you recommended!

Any more ideas out there?

3top,:(

[RotorPilot]

3top

Do you have sand filters installed ?

[3top]

Rotor Pilot,

no we don't have sandfilters. We hardly ever operate in sandy/dusty areas, besides the air-intake of the turbine on the EC120 is well hidden. The air has to go around a lot of sharp corners before getting to the intake.
Also if compressor deterioration was the problem it wouldn't show up intermediately - sometimes on sometimes off!

When the engine starts normal we have quite good numbers.
But you never know when she will run normal or hot (or at least indicate hot).

3top :(

Any Turbomeca guys lurking here?

[Downupside]

3tops,

From I read above, it seems that you get this T4 reading difference all along the power on of your machine.
As far as I know, arrius 2F has a so called t4 conformation box in order to homogenized the temperature reading. The value is given to the VEMD by means of a couple of resistors, slope and 0 adjustement. Did you try to check this box or the resistors as it could be the source of this trouble ?

My 2 cts
Bunka

[erchie]

maybe a daft question as not much experience of ec120 but i'll ask anyway. Can you spot any difference in Nr during startup between the two conditions?

[3top]

Downupside, Frogspawn:

I wrote the guy downunder and got a really quick reply!
Thanks god, there is no regional jealousy within Turbomeca (unlike EC!!), so he produced 4 more contacts to try! One of them is the Mexican technician from Turbomeca that was here.
According to our chief mechanic, him and the Turbomeca guy did all the confirmation box checks, but I am following up to confirm that. They also checked all other electronic or electric connections.
As mentioned a previous always present "FLI-failure" was finished off that way. (Dirty Torque sensor connection).

Erchie:

No I didn't notice any difference in idle Nr, but I didn't pay particular attention to that either, but generally there would not be a big difference.
BUT I will definitely pay closer attention to that now!
Any idea if "yes"?

3top

[Aviator609]

Pardon my ignorance, but does the Arruis have a bleed valve on the compressor or a similar device?

I know that on several occasions with a Bell 206 Jetranger that I flew, a sticky bleed valve caused a high TOT at a low torque setting with a related low N1 reading.

The company I worked for had so many strange incidents with the EC 120's, eg blade strike after a downwind landing and the door flew completely open as there was no door strut attached.

Yep, in the full open position the door extends above the blades when rotating making for a spectacular noise and lots of u/s spares. The list goes on, but this is a complete new topic all on its own!

Good luck!

[3top]

Aviator,
that's a great design if it can do that! I will check this myself right away! I guess that door strut is good for something after all! Though they are loosing gas pressure rather quickly! Expensive to replace too.

Yes the Arrius does have a bleedvalve for the cabin heater, but it is closed at all times. If it is open there is a "P2" indication on the screen. However the T4 rise with P2 is only about 15°C max, not the 30-80°C I see!

Frogspawn,
your man from downunder came up with a similar case!
His was a intermittent failure in the T45 confirmation box.
I am just checking with him if this box checked okay with all the tests. If this is the case, I guess I have the culprit.
Ours checked fine with all the tests, so I am curious.

Keep you posted!

Anyone have some stories about the EC120B? Something we all could learn from?

3top

[RotorPilot]

Rotor Pilot,
no we don't have sandfilters. We hardly ever operate in sandy/dusty areas, besides the air-intake of the turbine on the EC120 is well hidden. The air has to go around a lot of sharp corners before getting to the intake.
Also if compressor deterioration was the problem it wouldn't show up intermediately - sometimes on sometimes off!

Thanks it was just a long shot.
I flew for a couple of years in areas where the dust and sand would cut the TBO's of the engines in HALF by transforming the compressor blades into grotesquely deformed razor blades. We were getting 500 / 600 hrs from each engine, tops.
So we had to install sand filters. After this we started having some variations in temps caused by the filters (if they were dry, or humid or wet or clogged they would affect the readings accordingly to their condition at any given time).

Can’t figure out anything else. Intermittent malfunctions are terrible even in computers let alone flying machines

[goaround7]

Starting EC120 when hot - crank for below 150 degrees, then put on fuel boost pump and wait 30 seconds OR fuel pump 30 seconds then crank then start ?

Manual seems to imply crank then fuel boost pump which works okay except that temp rises again while you wait for 30 seconds.

Can you do the fuel pump 30 seconds first and then crank and then start immediately without sending any fuel anywhere it shouldn't or otherwise doing damage (throttle closed of course) ?

How do you guys do it ?

[whatsarunway]

Sure its not below 200?

the 120 only really needs the start pump if it hasnt been flown in a few days but what you do is crank, for about five seconds when the ng is getting to zero hit the pump wait for ten seconds and start!

always worke for me:ok:

[goaround7]

You are right ! 200 degrees. Just checked manual. Good job not instructor rated on this one yet...

So, crank, 10 seconds fuel boost, start.

Will try this out.

Thanks !

[whatsarunway]

might not be a bad idea to start with the throttle a bit further closed than the reccomened twenty whatever degrees and slowly open it after start.

and remember, the VEMD never lies! :)

[goaround7]

Yep ! Not sure if this is just a hot and high mod for us in SA but we have the line drawn on the throttle well before you get to the indent originally used for starting. If you try to start more closed than this line, then there's no fuel going in anyway so no choice on the machine I fly.

Incidentally how soon do you open the throttle after the 'light up' as the machine I fly seems to hang about 300 degrees anyway ? What is normal, at what point can you say that all is normal and start to open up or must if be continuous from light up ?

Another 120 cooked this weekend apparently because once the voltage drops below 15 V you can't activate the release to close the throttle and noone is going to be that quick on the fuel shut off...

[whatsarunway]

when it starts to hang thats your cue to put in more juice,
we have that line here too and when the temp is not too hot, ie 220-260 we used to close the throttle further than the white line and when the temp got below the 200 open it slowly while starting, saves the battery from lov voltage during the start a bit,

like i say its not in the manual but it worked for us,
by the way make sure you do your W+B for every flight! not a bad idea to put the optional weight in the tail:ok:

[oxi]

The 120 is a simple machine, I have about 1500 hours in them and always start with the boost pump on, but watch the temp as we all know, if you are expecting a hot start a the throttle will need to be wound off ...perhaps alot....it is easy to go tooo far and shut it off.


Most normal starts I found requied a gentle increase to get the T4 to around 700 deg which is preffered on start, the secondry nozzels don't seem to accelerate it enough in some cases.

I would think twice about ballest in the machine, it ain't that bad. and the vmed info is as you probably know only in the flight manual section 7 if i recall. Best bet is to find some ground power and have a play.

Good luck

[whatsarunway]

not that bad?

its the worlds worst when it comes to CofG. five people on bord is a no go wothout the weight in the tail and the battery relocated.:bored:

[goaround7]

Whatsarunaway seems to have a point. I was just doing W&B for a four pax flight and there's no way it's going to come back into the graph no matter how I plan the fuel.

Offered the clients the Squirrel instead.

Of course the EC would probably get off the ground, in the morning anyway, but then if something happens, you won't get pleasant treatment from Eurocopter or your insurers...

Anyone know of any incidents like this ? Is there an approved mod to relocate the battery and can you still get to it to disconnect it ?

However, did spend a few hours doing low level power line inspection in EC last week. Four hours at about 40 feet and 50 knots with three on board and she was very nice. Mucho impressed with manoeuvrability but looks like Squirrel and 407 for our charters.

[oxi]

Yep...i agree, give me the 350 or 407 for the charters, i guess the 120 is like the 206.....built for 4 not 5.

But still a very good and user friendly machine.

[helmet fire]

Where is your battery goaround?

I have only seen it in the front end of the tail boom, acessed by the rear flap door.

You can put balance weights on the rear stinger too I think.

[goaround7]

battery is in (what I think is) the normal place - at the base of the tail.

Is there some kind of Eurocopter certified procedure for adding ballast in the tail or just a new M&B ?

Boss made up his mind to buy a Squirrel B or BA now anyway so hopefully will have options.

[Sayagain...?]

:mad: How many are we aware of that was cooked on start-up in South Africa over the last couple of months...?

[goaround7]

1 - I heard weekend before last (ROB ?) but don't know for sure;
2 - the one I fly before it came to us, last year;
3 - also heard (but haven't seen log book) of another that NAC had for a while - cooked before it came to them though.

How are they working out in Kruger Park ? I hear that the new pilots there really like them and they must be halfway decent to cope with the demands of game work ?

Care to comment, CA ?

[Sayagain...?]

Heard the guys in the Kruger Park have cooked theirs twice. This true?

[whatsarunway]

I wonder how many 206/as350/ non vemd machines are overtemped and overlooked because of a lack of teltale computer,
maybe the 120 is not easier to cook than any other turbine just easier to be found out when you have!:\

[JimL]

Whatsarunway,

You have just put your finger on one of the important reasons why engines should be monitored. The reduction of hot starts, or over-temping or over-torquing is important to all of us; elimination of these (accidental but not reported events) will reduce the number of engine failures - which are still the cause of about 26% of all accidents.

[goaround7]

Very valid point. Although most newer Bells have the absolute over temp warning light on the TOT which is not supposed to be able to be reset by the pilot.

(Doesn't stop them colouring it in with a felt tip pen and continuing the two week charter though...)

[goaround7]

Just heard tell that Kruger Park pilot overtemp'd one of their EC120s this week ?

Apparently not the first time for this machine ?

[Hilico]

Whatsarunway, JimL

Excellent points. So do you (or does anyone else) know whether the EC120 has a significantly lower rate of engine failure in practice than the helos without VMED?.

[whatsarunway]

Sure it's a french engine, those things never quit!
anyone ever heard of a 120 engine failure, apart from the one with an fcu problem?

[Fanie Jordaan]

I flew EC120's for SANParks until January this year,mostly gamecapture , but also hot and heavy during surveys. I managed to fly 2300 hrs on type during the 5 years there.

We found the machine well up to the task at lower density altitudes, but tapering off with an increase in altitude. The B206 lobby that make statements of outperforming the EC120 under the same conditions suffer from selective scan during critical phases of flight. The VEMD never lies.

The SANParks engine was overtemped 2 weeks ago, for the first time during 5300hrs of operation. I will post the stats on total RSA reported overtemps here after I get the gen from Turbomeca.

Quick reference guide to hot start a EC 120:

Battery voltage below 17V
Not paying attention
Not resetting throttle completely if you open it up beyond the "Start"line on CP(linkage play)

[whatsarunway]

VEMD never lies?

I dont think the 120 can really be compared to the 206 when it comes to usefull load comfort speed and dare i say it , maintenence reliability,

i think the 206 has its advantages though ,

you can put five people into a 206 and be in ballance(maybe with 20 minutes fuel) but if you actually calculate the 120 W+B unless you have kids in the heli, its almost impossible,

althougt the 120 is very relaible, if you have a problem, the customer service from bell is second to none! eurocopter is , eh , not. :uhoh:


Is there any situation where the VEMD can lie, and whose word do you take?
the pilot or the computer?

Thankfully never came up for me but can you imagine trying to argue with the computer?

Also , the 120 only records he last 31 flights and if an overlimit occoured thirty two flights ago, nobody will ever know!

Good system but surely there are some flaws.
:confused:

[3top]

Hello everyone,

I though you might be interested how we finally fixed our T45 temp problem:

It was the Confirmation box!!

The bad news is, it was a intermident failure! The "fun" part being the -intermident-!!
You check the damn thing according to the maintenance manual it checks out just fine!

The final tip came from Australia - thanks Frogspawn!!:D

After a couple of e-mails across the world with some Turbomeca-techs, we eliminated all possible causes. Actually nothing was left!

In Australia there was a similar case so we just gambled on it! Voila!
Also considering the normal prices in this business, the confirmation box is a rather lowprice item!

Thanks again for all the tips!

Frogspawn, your man came up with the right idea!!

3top
:ok:

[3top]

Hi everyone,

interesting thread!

I only have about 750 hrs in the EC120B but NEVER even got close to a hot start!

Here it goes:
# NEVER even try to start below 17 V!b If you do, you risk a comlete electrical blackout with nothing to shut the throttle - here is one more: Watch these SAFT batteries!! There excellent until they get around 3 years - they show full charge but is just on the screen! With the aux-pump on and starting suddenly everything goes to below 15V in a hurrry!! We exchanged with a kit that uses a new maintenance free Concord....
# Don't worry about the 30 sec of the aux-fuel pump. It only puts pressure into the system until the engine-driven fuel pump takes over. Switch it on, at about 15 sec you crank the temp down, when Ng goes low, go ahead with the start! What if your fuel pressure goes low? The manual says to switch the aux-pump on! Again, no worry about the 30 sec or 60 sec or 300 sec!!

# Now the following WAS in the manual at some time, but I still use it as it works just perfect:

If you have some higher rest T4 showing, start in the shutoff position until Ng has 10%, then roll it into ground idle. You never will overtemp it. (This cools about as good as cranking to Ng10%, but the rest T4 doesn't start to climb again!)

I actually did various hot starts with a rest T4 of around 315°C, NO cooldown cranking, but starting at shutoff until 12% Ng. Sure, you want to watch T4 closely and modulate it accordingly, but I never even got to redline.
Now of course this was trying things out, so normally I crank it down to 230-200°C (but never more than Ng 10% on the cranking...), all while the aux-pump is on. The hotter rest T4 is, the higher you want Ng before rolling to ground idle, BUT never go beyond 14% ( personally I keep the limit at 12%) or you might risk to not light off.

Also on a regular start, be patient until you see the T4 rising a little faster after it passes 300°C. From there on you can push it a little towards the upper limit which will help to accelerate the engine faster ( remember: the hotter you can start the turbine the better - without exceeding limits!!!), and you get off the starter sooner.
On a regular cold start, if you leave the turbine to itself (with the throttle at ground idle) it will take forever to get to Ng 50%.
After T4 starts to go up faster passing 300°C, it will slow down and stop at around 650°C if you don't help it. So as soon as you see T4 rise slowing, start to roll on the throttle slowly. Actually if you are too slow you will reach Ng 50% before T4 ever sees 750°C.

Remember they couldn't make the 120 too good or they put these Squirrels out of business! LOL!!
:D :D

3top :cool:

[goaround7]

Hi 3top,

Thanks for the gen. I've saved your suggestions to digest slowly. I was shown a similar hot starting procedure by one more experienced pilot but it's not in the manual so the owner would not approve ! Better than a hot start though. Very interesting what you say about the battery life - I will pass this on to the owner.

I undertand that the hot start problems that have been experienced in South Africa recently also relate to the battery dropping during the start and consequently leaving the throttle stuck open - not much that a pilot can do about that. Even pulling the fuel shut off would not be fast enough.

[Billywizz]

I recently had a hotter than normal start on the 120 and although the heater knob was fully closed (it was summer) the P2 flag was displayed on the VEMD. Had it checked out by maint and they adjusted the bleed valve, no problem since.

[3top]

Billywizz,

the P2 valve and the switch that brings the "P2" onto the VEMD are 2 different things, side by side. If the valve doesn't close any further you can bet that the valve is closed and probably the microswitch is loose and that is why the "P2" stays.

Best is to observe T4 at a steady state, open and close the Valve, you should have no more than 15°C variation (normally no more than 10°C)

3top
:cool:

[3top]

Hey goaround 7,

one more thing about the battery:

a) It is also NOT in the manual, nevertheless the EC guys from Mexico told us at one of their visits, that is recommended to leave the gen on at all times, even at and/or after shut down! Punch off the BAT but leave the GEN on. Supposedly it has something to do with battery drain through some of the electronics.

b) If you stay overnight or wait all day long for your pax, disconnect the battery. Take off either of the terminals, I normally take off the positive.

c) If you play around in the cockpit without actually starting the ship, use a APU to power the radios and GPS, you won't believe how fast these things suck down the battery. Then you show 22V instead of 25.8V for the start. Botch it a little and your done - it shuts off below 15V :mad:

to the "non authorized" Starting Procedure:
As mentioned in my previous post, this procedure WAS in the POH at some time.
Actually it started out without it, then they put this in (Sept.'99), and then they took it out again.
In October 2001 it was still there. Also that you would activate the starter before rolling into the start position. Now you place the throttle in the start position before activating the starter....

My guess is, that some people overdid it with the Ng, and tried to light off at 17% or higher. Most likely you don't start at all. So what you have now is a puddle of fuel somewhere in the turbine.
At the next start up you may or not get a nice long flame shooting out the pipe!
However as you observed, you have a hard time cranking the thing down and still start without a T4 running redline. Besides, this also eats a lot more battery.

In any case run the fuel pump first, it doesn't matter how long it runs - when it is on 18-20 sec, do your cooling crank, and as soon as Ng is low enough for T4 to rise again, go ahead and start.

It is easier to do the "Ng 10% at cut off" thing though.

To EC generally and their frequent changes of procedures:

Just went head on with my boss for going exactly with the manual for Nr adjustment. He claimed the Factory instructions are wrong. I argued, he did the adjustment according to the manual, and guess what, he was right! They wrote it the other way around!
Moral: Your POH is like the bible, mostly it is okay, but some stories I know for a fact are not true!!

This morning I put some new leaves in the Flight Manual (POH), Revision 8a, I think: Section 8 where it explains the button functions of the cyclic and collective:
The new yellow(temporary) leave says "floats" on the floats switch and it says "floats" on the hydraulic off switch, too!
So much for a detailed review BEFORE sending revisions into the field.
I believe the Hot starting procedure is along the same line.
Let's do - ahh better not - or maybe we should after all?

Ask EC WHY they removed the "10% Ng at off position" again?
I would like to know too! Meanwhile I keep using it to keep T4 in check!:D
note: When I asked the Ec-techs visiting, they couldn't say for what reason the procedure was changed back...

Actually because of this post I observed a couple of temps this morning a little closer:

Cold start: If you don't help T4 after it starts to rise faster after 300°C it will get stuck around 635°C and Ng acceleration will go to near zero.
Repeated 3 hot starts with "my" procedure, hottest with 265°C rest T4. Roll to start after reaching 10% Ng and roll back a little after lightoff. T4 will settle at 740°C everytime before sinking when you help a little to maintain this until Ng reaches 50%.

Ask your owner, whether he prefers a "nearly burned one" every chance or a rather safe "cool" start!
You can perfectly combine both:
Normally if I know I have to start up in short order, I will crank right away after I note down the flight report. This way you took out a lot of heat right away. You still can crank again before starting, while you have the pump on. Just give it a little Ng before rolling into the START position...

3top
:cool:

goaround 7,

if it helps I can scan the old revision pages that outline the procedure, maybe that helps discussing things with your boss and/or EC. In case your bird is new enough and the Flight Manual never received these changes!

Let me know!
If you want them I need your e-mail.

3top
:cool:

[whatsarunway]

Twice i've nearly cooked an ec120 engine(on two seperate machines) both times have been due to a faulty FCU.

Just be ready for
hit starter , hear sounds, look at t4 gauge ,nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing, oh my god! followed by a sprained wrist in trying to close the throttle real quick.:mad:

1500hrs in the things and every hour wishing i was in a squirell!:(

[oxi]

I agree with 3top, leave the gene on always, I never touch it and was told by our engineers that it has somethink to do with a battery drainage problem.....

Disconnect it when away overnight or when not using the machine.

The pilot and co-pilots map lights are hot wired so be careful not to leave them on.

I have seen guys endorse pilots with the technique of starting by turning the throttle on similar to the 206. I have found that it just don't work right.

I don,t have the latest flight manual at hand but I generaly then direct the pilot to start with the throttle in the detent (or just slightly before is the best position just incase you need a quick shutoff).

the first set of nozzels fire it up well to around 300-350, but the second are a bit slow so you may need to give it a bit.....
As 3top says the turbine preferrs it (around 700) and you save the gene a bit.


With sarting with the throttle as I do you should have no problems even if the battery drops off.

Do you guys judge the health of the battery by the sound of the igniters aswell?.........you can usually pick it every time.


Good luck

[3top]

oxi,
I check the battery by how fast it goes down once the starter is engaged. If there is any doubt, that I get the turbine to Ng 50% I cut it, latest at 16V!!! That's your last chance to unlock the throttle.

206 procedure is to much Ng for the Arrius before lighting off.
Though it still is the old procedure, but it works better for me:

Cold start: Engage the starter and roll imediately to ground idle.
Hot start: Engage starter and roll to ground idle at Ng 10%

Charme everytime!
;)

3top

[goaround7]

Aha !

That explains why generator switch was on when machine came back from a flight by a Eurocopter pilot then...

As I just pressed all three buttons and then started, I actually turned it (the gen) off for the start and then back on when I saw no charge after the start.

Owner once told me that a 'general parameter' yellow caution warning that comes and goes is due to him doing the same once and starting without the generator on - does that sound right ?

[goaround7]

BIG thanks to all for input on this issue. Did an EC flight yesterday and had to shut down and start up again immediately. Used the techniques you passed on and all went well. Carefully monitored battery voltage which never dipped below 20V and start settled nicely at 700 degrees.

Going on Eurocopter's own ground school shortly so hopefully confidence will grow in this machine.

Probably hot start next I fly but I guess I'll have no excuse now...

[3top]

Hi all,

I am looking for some input on track & balance as it comes up on our pride and joy!
My personal experience is a lot of R-44, some R-22 and some Bell-47 and 206.
On the EC120 I am basically new.

Of course we always go with the EC-manual, but anyone who does track & balance knows, that there is still a lot of "Black Arts"/"Witchcraft"/"Magic Hands" involved!;)

So here it comes:

Until now I always extracted from the manual, that T&B would be done in the following sequence:

a) Balance on ground or hover
b) Track on ground or hover - adjust with pitchlinks
c) Track in flight - adjust with tabs/readjust pitchlinks for hover
d) Check balance again
e) Start all over if you have to...:D

Now I am curious what you have to say about the EC120 or any EC for that matter:

a) and b) are pretty much the same, but at c) there is no adjusting for Track, but for vibration.

I understand, that sometimes you might get a smoother ship if the blades do not track perfectly (wake aerodynamics I guess...), but what I do not understand is, why one would not at least try to get all the blades into line before diverging again (if necessary...).

Matter in case: On blade is obviously climbing a little at max cruise, but instead calling for some trimtab action to bring it down in line, the vibration graph is asking to push the blade UP even further (with the trimtab)!!

I understand that not always everything looks "logic" at first sight, but this gets me,:confused:

Manual says to visualize the track and do trimtab adjusments according to the graph. Now all the blades are dead-on on the ground and in hover and are still within tolerance in flight, but of course one always wants to go as smooth as possible.
"Logic" tells me to "pull" the blade down with the trimtab - manual says "push it up". If it where for the pitchlinks, no problem I just try it out, but those trimtabs definitely have a limited "bending"-lifetime. I don't want to bend them the wrong way just for a trial....

Any "oldtimers" (nothing to do with age actually,:D ) out there with some hardcore experience in this matter?
I guess any A-Star, Squirrel, Ecurielle, etc. will do as the ships have basically the same rotor!

Thanks,

3top
:cool:

[Ascend Charlie]

Zut alors!

Are you not aware, monsieur, zat ze French do everysing backwards??
:8

[3top]

Not evrysing only somesings!

There is a lot of "curious" translation in the Manuals!
Sometimes outright wrong! You would think EC could afford a professional translater.....

It seems non of the pilot gang here is involved in Track & Balance!

3top :cool:

[Wunper]

3 Top

I may be teaching your granny to suck eggs but...

Just double check the orientation of your vertical accelerometer , if it were 180 deg out i.e. upside down the phase angle you read will 180 degrees out and therefore give rise to the (at face value) strange discrepancy of de-tracking the rotor to achieve a lower vibe level.

It does depend on the values you are talking about but by and large3 bladed rotors such as on the 350/355 /120 etc have less tendency for abiguity than 4 , 5 and 6 bladers IE A large track spread normally DOES equate to large 1P vibes.

Whereas a 4 blader you can have a big 2 and 2 split with very low 1P and high 2P as per the 412 with its built in +20 -20 +20 -20 theoretical perfect track.

All these rules of thumb are of course out the window when you get an atypical blade in the pack

Have fun

Wunper:ok:

[3top]

wunper,

thanks for the "eggs":ok:

No chance on the wrong direction of the sensor, just checked both manuals (EC and ACES, our electronic dynamic balance equipment), both coincide with the sensor conector pointing up, and it always did while doing t&b.

But at least I am not alone for "logic" here!

As soon as I get back in the air with the ship I will post what is the game!

Thanks again,

3top
:cool:

PS: Sure would be hard to pair a 3 blader!:E

[canthover]

Following all the goo on the African Aviation site regarding the EC120 roll over in Durban, some interesting questions have been raised.

It seems that the crux of the matter is that the EC120 involved was engaged in a training sortie and the good old Tail Rotor Control Failure exercise was being carried out. This is where it all ended up as a pile of paper work for the insurers and Civil Aviation to sort out. Apparently the guys ended up with a violent onset of uncontrollable yaw so rapid that they elected to keep it in the air for a while in the hopes of getting the beast under control rather than dumping early and possibly bending the skids. But alas keeping it in the air meant lots of whirly whirly and then the ultimate decision to dump the machine resulting in the roll over. From what I can gather the guy did a good job as he managed to get it onto the ground quite level but the right aft section of the skid dug in (had a bit of rain over the previous couple of days) causing the dynamic roll over situation. He estimates the rate of rotation to be in the region of 120-160 deg per sec as things got rather blurred.

The CAA have pulled ratings based on "fenestron issues" that they say the guys don't know about. Sounds like they are hinting at differences between conventional and Fenestron systems, but they wont provide the information.

So the BEEEEG ? - are there any guys out there that have this information on hand so the rest of the guys (instructors) that escaped the CAA sword can continue training and at least be a little more versed in the finer aspects of this "fenestron issue" that is causing such a stir on the African Aviation site.
:oh: :E

[EAGLE31]

Not sure if this helps but I will give it a shot. We operate 3 EC120's our high time ship is coming up on 4,000 hours and #2 is close to 3,500. We almost never do a track and balance. If you are trying to get rid of a vibration that you cannot seem to fix with T&B, adjust the RRPM. We have found that the hammers are tuned to a specific RRPM. As little as a 2 RRPM difference in this equation makes a HUGE difference. Ours are smoothest at 409-410 RRPM. It does not seem that this would make a big difference but it does. If all else fails try this and see if it works. Hope this will will smooth things out for you.

[canthover]

I see no one is interested in the query here - have I stood in the proverbial doggy doo:} and chased valuable comment away.

Sounds like the poor guys in Durbs are desparate for some info on the Fenestron Aero D.:confused:

[flygunz]

Canthover
I have no experience with the aerodynamics of the EC120 and it's fenestron, however lots of previous with the Gazelle. The Gazelle has a history of fenestron issues but after some exhaustive testing, fenestron stall as it is known was concluded as a non event and more likely just a combination of human error at the controls. In my view this was smoke and mirrors to protect the manafacturer and a situation where the fenestron can stall under certain conditions does exist. In fact on one of my many Instructor upgrades I attempted to prove this with vector description. I couldn't be proved wrong but didn't feel the need to make a huge ass of myself taking on Aerospatiale!

The interesting part of your post for me is that the crew were executing tail rotor control failure techniques, these if got wrong can lead to unusual airflow and dynamics around the shroud which could lead to a stall situation, it's very easy to say that as I wasn't there and can't say exactly what the handling Pilot was doing at the critical moment. None the less, I can add that tail rotor malfunction practice was written out of the Gazelle training guide as it was considered to risky to practice.

[3top]

What would be the "Issue" on the Fenestron?

If they got into trouble, something must have been stuck! Maybe they where freezing the pedals to each other, in a stress situation like this sometimes people do the weirdest things - if the student freezes the pedals there is no way to correct anything.

I never had a Fenestron stall, though I run out of pedal plenty of times - but that does not mean that the Fenestron is stalled, but just giving all it has.

That EC quit doing stuck-pedal training is more likely to the inherent danger of roll over if you do it wrong or something goes wrong.

I was lucky enough to do some training with a factory instructor and when he showed us "stuck-pedal" he was surprised how fast the EC120 comes around when applying collective to straighten out for a straight run-on. He said it was his first time to do that in a 120.
He also said the 120 was the lowest inertia helicopter he ever flew!
He didn't pick up on my invitation to fly a R-22 with him to show him a "no"-inertia helicopter!! :D

It seems rather curious, that SA EC120 guys where not able to stop the rotation with full pedal application.

When I check out people in the EC120 I let them "run away" sometimes in a hover to get them on the watch for the TR, as the Fenestron lags quite a bit over a regular TR and anticipation is the name of the game.

It is not so hard to keep the helicopter level and turning around itself fairly fast. This of course gets the students attention and a "big eyes" look towards me. After I tell him to do something to recover they step on the pedal (I will block the wrong side, as I don't know what the 120 does if accelerated beyond more or less neutral pedal position) and it takes up to 3 complete turns to stop the rotation.....

Anyone close to the guys to ask about the posibility of "pilot-froozen-pedals" in the case at hand?

3top,:cool:

[3top]

Eagle,

thanks for the input! We just got a service bulletin about that and did adjust the RRPM, which now is running right in the specified range.
We did also a head inspection. On one of the dampers a rod end is pretty much at the limit, so this might have given a part of the rather rough ride, but I still believe it is the climbing blade.

I will track&balance tomorrow and put the blades in line.

We'll see how it goes.

One more question, do you guys T&B heavy or light?

A) Heavy, the machine has more inertia to dampen any vibration, but one has to pull more AOA to keep flying.

B) Less weight doesn't dampen as well but the bird will go faster for the max continous power data collection.

3top
:cool:

[EAGLE31]

To be honest I am not sure, but I will guess light. We get about 115 knots at max cont. 113 knots if it is really hot. We have a fairly heavy ship at 2600 pounds empty.

[3top]

Wow,
does it come with a fully stocked swimming pool or what?
Ours is 2284 empty.....

3top

[EAGLE31]

It is a law enforcement ship. FLIR, Nightsun, Moving Map, DVD recorder, cargo hook.....and a kitchen sink. Still working on the swimming pool though.

[mickjoebill]

Anyone flown or seen a EC 120 with a nose mount for a ultramedia type camera gimbal?

I've seen the one that is attached to the skid but am after something that puts the camera further forward.



Mickjoebill

[EAGLE31]

I have never heard of a "skid" mounted gimbal. The only one that I know of is the factory mount just forward of the skid and offset to the left side. I do not believe there are any other options available. Here is a photo of ours.

Jeff

http://www.bluetonguehelicopters.com.au/pprune/ec1.jpg

[mickjoebill]

Thanks.
The factory mount as I understand it isn't ideal for 15 inch + gimbals being utilised for filming.
We need the gimbal further forward, usually on some kind of pole mount.
cheers
Mickjoebill

[Thermvis]

There is a side mount for the EC120, try meekeraviation, and I have heard of an unusual deployable rear mount by Helisupport in Sweden.
However not seen a nose mount yet.

[widgeon]

meeker mount is rated for a max weight ( can't remember what it is) this should make getting approval for any load a bit easier. Not sure if you could mount anything of any size further fwd on the 120 and still stay in CG limits .

[chopperdr]

mjb: we have a faa approved mount available for the ec-120. the mount is installed on the left hand side of the airframe onto existing hardpoints.
1) certified for payloads to 125lbs
2) qualified payloads include all popular models of cameras including ultramedia
3) compatible with cargo swing
4) easily removed and installed on mutliple airframes
5) intial install approx 6 hrs, field removal / install in about 5 minutes
6) currently in service on 20+ airframes

you can see a good series of pictures of the mount on our website www.meekeraviation.com
thanks
cal meeker
chopperdr

[mickjoebill]

Thanks!

Is it out of the question to put 45 kilos on the nose in a EC120?
Vacant front passenger seat do it?
Would a weight like the big spacecam brackets have help balance things out?


Hang the director from the boom is often an attractive option:)



Mickjoebill

[chopperdr]

mjb: no you could put a camera on the nose, however you would have to bend the tube upwards to retain ground clearance, 120's are known to rub there noses in the dirt now and again. also you would need to relocate the pitot static as the gimbal would shadow the existing location. an aft counterbalance would probably be required. all that said and the very limited market for that type of install would just say go with side mount and narrow the focus down, not the best camera location for your style of work but proven certified alternative
dr

[headsethair]

Have you seen : http://www.cineflex.com/ ??

[RotorDompteur]

There's also the possibility of mounting it beneath the rear cargo door:
Unimount (http://www.airalpha.com/Maintenance/Unimount%204000.aspx)

RD http://www.helitech.dk/pprune/p.gif

[Spunk]

Hi RotorDompteur,

that mount looks pretty need, I like it. Any problems with that mount being installed in the rear as far as a "blurred image" is concerned due to the exhaust gases???

Greetings,

Frank

[widgeon]

at my last job the boss man ( chopperdr knows who i mean) wanted to develop a deployable camera mount where after take off the camera would descend below skid height to give an uninterupted 360 deg view , the technical problems and failure modes made it a non starter .

[chopperdr]

widgeon: easy on the boss man, he may be reading this. besides without him we would not have left hand drive in the astar.
sold another 120 side mount, now have 22 in service. not sure how the bp's aircraft are to be configured, but will do our best to help if we can.
dr

[RotorDompteur]

Spunk;

I have only heard about it as a concern - but have not experienced it myself. Not even at fairly slow forward speeds...
But I cannot say that it won't ever happen.

Camera operators tends to like the mount as it gives almost unobstructed 360 degrees view.

RD

[RotorDompteur]

We are considering a project which requires that we have an extra LH front door for our EC120.

But how on earth do you get hold of such...?!? :confused:
Have considered to track partially crached machines, but have found it to be difficult.

If you ask Eurocopter, they come up with approximately the same price as they charge for a whole new helicopter...

Any ideas would be appreciated...! :ok:

RD http://www.helitech.dk/pprune/p.gif

[widgeon]

how is your chinese ?. If this is part of the Harbin workshare you could probably get one from them that fell off the back of a lorry nudge nudge . They are asembling them in OZ too maybe try there . Probably be cheaper to take a splash of the door and reverse engineer a carbon fibre one. The hinges and latches are not that expensive,

[lamanated]

just seeing what is available.

[lamanated]

Just wondering if anyone can give me some tips on them.or what wears out,etc I am mainly an Astar guy..
thanks

[3top]

Eagle 31:

Nice ship!! Now I understand your empty weight!

Back to our T&B: Never happened, when we did the T&B runs it turned out to be right where it is supposed to be! Nr is slightly on the upper edge, but it runs really smooth now!

What I don't understand is the W&B issues here! I never have a problem, though I use the rather short lap belt in the frontseat to confine really heavy pax to rear-center with the excuse, that they HAVE to wear the seat belt.........;)


RotorDomteur,
what's this project for the 2nd frontdoor ? :=
Curiousity hits the cat!

Do you have to stay 100% legal or is there some leeway for "special" jobs where you fly?
(E.g. ther is no kit to put a Tylor-camara mount into a EC120, but we still made it fit, without doing any permanent modifications and it worked the charm - as it was not permanently mounted it was "special cargo" :O :O )
..but of course that depends how much the local authorities will "help" by "translating" the rules into "understandable terms"


3top

:D

[helitubby]

After shut down the other day, saw the dreaded "OVER LIMIT DETECTED".
The VEMD says the NR was 460. This certainly did not happen. It is also not the first time this has happend. Have had this message come up a few times, all showing high NR.
Has anyone else had a similar occurence?

[Alfa Hotel]

This Nr overlimit sometimes occurs when you fly over or near very strong radiotransmitters.
Try and think where you flew the time that you had an overlimit and next time you fly the same route keep an eye on the Nr/Nf gauge and you will notice that it will respond erratically without the actual Nr changing physically.:ok:

[helitubby]

Thanks for that. Will keep a lookout.
Cant say there are any big transmitters around.
We fly pretty much the same route all the time (scenic flights) and it only happens occasionally, but I will try to look for the trend or to see the gauge fluctuate.

[goaround7]

Sounds like a great question for the forthcoming meet-and-greets with the Eurocopter guys from France in SA.

Check posting on rolling EC120 in African Aviation for number to call to book yourself a ring side seat.

[Alfa Hotel]

Helitubby

What I did forget to mention is that the weather can have some effect on it as well.

In the past I found out that it was a radio transmitter caussing the Nr overlimit and ended up flying in an arc some distance away from it. However on some occassions due to a weather change the Nr overlimit would still occur on this diversion as well.

How long have you been flying the ec 120?

[Recuperator]

Helitubby,

Speak to Clint Watt (ex Eurocopter?)

Apparently there is a software problem that does give a false "OVER LIMIT DETECTED", especially if a higher than normal (not necessarily an exceedence) Nr is experienced, e.g. during quickstop, auto's etc.

Radio masts and weather as cause I haven't experienced and can't comment on that.

Can tell you that I worked for a utility company in SA that used the EC120 extensively for powerline work, optic fibre stringing on the powerlines and never had any interference with electricity on the EC120 and some of the lines carried 400Kv that we worked on and over.:ooh:

[helitubby]

Alfa Hotel
Been flying EC120 for about 10 months.
Cant say weather has been a big factor either, but will keep looking out for a trend.
Have also heard the software problem before.
Thanks for the replies.

[lamanated]

I see there is a requirement for antiicing additive,but is there an airframe mounted filter such as the other companies use to eliminate this requirement?? and anything for a nicad oil filter for the engine also??thanks

[Billywizz]

We are just about to have our third FCU fitted within 500 hours!
Any body know of problems with this unit, at £20,000 a time its getting VERY expensive.

3top
thanks for the info on P2/bleed valve.
It would be nice if engineers came forth with all the information regarding maintenance. I don't want their job, Ijust want to know whats going on up there when I'm flying.

[oxi]

Question......Has anyone seen my duals, they went missing out of the Eurocopter hanagar at Bankstown Sydney Australia.

The collective has the landing light switch snapped off, both collective and cyclic are early model with all the switches.


Appericeate any help....as Eurocopter arn't.

[widgeon]

Eurocopter Canada were working on an airframe fuel filter a few years ago , not sure if it made it to market yet.
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgSTC.nsf/0/F81F01E78D805E8F86256D1E005797A5?OpenDocument

they have one for the EC130 .

[toolguy]

I am looking for EC-120 operators willing to participate in an aircraft model survey for an article I am writing for a major aviation magazine. Survey form will be kept confidential if desired., or you can be quoted by name if you desire. Form has twenty general satisfaction issues, rated by satisfaction level from 0 lowest to 4 highest. Form can be emailed or faxed, in ms word format or adobe .pdf. Topics include:
Hover Performance:
Fuel Economy:
Vibration/ cabin:
Vibration/ cockpit:
Cockpit Visibility:
Instrument Panel Layout:
Controls – Layout:
Noise: External:
Cabin Temp. Control:
Seating comfort:
Ease of Maint.: Overall
Scheduled Maint. Program
Frequency Unsched. Maint
Engine Reliability:
Maintenance Manuals:
Parts Support – helicopter:
Parts Support - engine:
Tech. Support – helicopter:
Tech. Support - engine:
Overall mfg. Support:
Operating cost:
Overall satisfaction:

Contact me if you would like to participate. Thanks!

[goaround7]

Did a short piece to video the other day in the EC120, shooting backwards out of the removed bottom door.

Notwithstanding all the other bewildering design faults of this aircraft, it was very, very good.

Not only did the seats, seat belts, 'bulkhead' door and bottom door come out easily and safely (and put them back in later by myself without a hernia or too many trapped fingers) but the ride was fast, smooth, steady and perfect for the shots of the aerobatic aircraft doing his stuff behind us.

Anybody else tried it for film work ?

Well done EC ! Now just put a proper engine in it !

(Still not a Squirrel though...)

[moosp]

Rejoice with me. :D

We have just completed SB63-006 - MR Shaft Drive Inspection (yes I know its late, but we only just bought it...) It is clean as a whistle on a 1999 machine with no sign of corrosion.

Anybody had a problem with that SB or was it a couple of isolated incidents? Just curious.

[Fox6]

Just wondering what the fpm descent (on average) standard day in a 120 during an autorotation.

f6

[3top]

60kts steady, anything from 1400 fpm to 1700 fpm, depending on your weight.

3top

[lamanated]

Just wondering what you would recommend to someone when picking up a new ship..thanks

[jellycopter]

Ensure you have a pre-acceptance flight test performed to ensure it actually meets the advertised performance in terms of quoted OGE performance and cruise speed. If it doesn't, don't accept it. I know someone who bought a B2 Squirrel to relace his B1 and was very disappointed when it didn't meet specs. It went back to Eurocopter, but ultimately, it was never fully sorted out and doesn't cruise as fast as his previous, lower powered machine. J

[USACJ]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v225/usacj/N120DJ_TheIsland001.jpg (http://)

No sure if the photo worked but here is a photo of a 120 with the Cineflex V14 HiDef on a meeker mount.

[chopperdr]

fyi: have just received EASA certification for our side flir / nightsun mount. to date we have 22 mounts in service most of which are used in law enforcement.
thanks
cal meeker
www.meekeraviation.com

[helicam]

I decided that It might be quite a good idea to purchase my own EC120 flght manual being as I fly the aircfaft on a regular basis.

Being a foolish R22 pilot up until now, I called up MCAlpine and instead of being quoted the £30.00 I was expecting which is how much my R22 maual cost. The gentleman on the phone explained that If I sent him a cheque for £700.00 then he would send me one

Are they printed in gold leaf ? or is someone just taking the XXXX

I thought that it was down to the pilot to stay current with the aircraft !!!!!!!!

[Haggis Hunter]

It's Eurocopter... need I say more?

HH:cool:

[CyclicRick]

Not only Eurocopter, a Bell 205 manual cost about $850,-. I know 'cos someone nicked mine out of my cab a couple of years ago. I'm just glad the boss didn't dock my pay for it :uhoh:

[Heli-Ice]

Yeah! It never ends... I was told it was not that expensive to learn to fly helicopters and it would be relatively easy to get a job flying one... but NO now I find out that it is even very expensive to just read about the darn things, let alone flying them!

I've been had! :D

[Tony Chambers]

not on the topic of flying manuals but can anybody take a rough guess as to the cost of a gazelle door handle?

[Haggis Hunter]

I'll take a rough guess at £750??? Probably to little an amount I imagine...

[Heliport]

Tony
If you need one, it might be trying MW Helicopters at Stapleford before paying Eurocopter price.

[sycamore]

Tony, try a good car scrappers first, and look at old Renaults/Citroens........very pragmatic, ...

[Tony Chambers]

sycamore i think you are right lol. Go to a helicopter parts company and pay over the odds or go to the local scrappies and salvage a renault. Took a gazelle exhaust pipe to a renault dealer in france to be welded cost next to nothing to get done.

[Tynecastle]

Wonder what happens if you buy a Fly Manual from a 3rd party, do they send you all the amendments??
At 700 quid they should. but I bet there will be an extra charge for that.

[moosp]

The price sounds about right compared to our quote in Australia and Singapore. I think you will find this includes a five year ammendment service, which begins to soften the blow.

Our operation has a manual for each pilot, kindly supplied by Eurocopter. They were generous and provided them as part of the contract. But at the end of the five years it might be difficult to convince the pilots to spend another, say 750 euro on the amendment service.

You can see the position of the manufacturers in this. They nickel and dime themselves on the sale price in the hope that they can make the profit in their service contracts and after sales.

Expensive but worth it is the answer. I have heard of photocopies of the EC120 flight manual going around, but shuuurley helicopter pilots as an honourable breed of mankind would not risk a problem with copyright and even consider such a dastardly deed?

[B Sousa]

Helicam does not allow PMs nor Email. So I guess I will mention I have one for much less, however I dont know anyone named helicam so I guess I will keep it........
He must just want to moan on the forum...See if that gets me an email.......

[helicam]

The point of the matter being that £700.00 is too much money period, unless you are an aircraft owner.

And yes im just being a old man grumpy

[John Eacott]

My BK117 came with Japanese manuals (Maintenance et al), but could we swap for English, prease? No worries, only $A17,000 :eek: :yuk:

Upgrade to 117-B2, new Flight Manual needed, IIRC about $A4000. Apart from some expansions of performance graphs, the only difference to the -B1 manual were the page titles.

I quite like Mr Bell and his prices, especially as the MM's are free, all we have to pay for is the freight cost :ok:

What was that about copying? Honeywell now have a policy of retaining copyright on the LTS-101 manuals, so I have to pay them an annual fee of $US500 to use their manuals to maintain my bl**dy engines :sad:

[Steve76]

If it is for personal study, just borrow it for a morning and drop it into Staples..
Photocopies are pretty cheap these days.

[whatsarunway]

I wonder would Mr.Lappos do a cash deal? :O

[tecpilot]

EC published the whole FM, Trainings Manual and Operation Manual Stuff regularly on a CD with an own starting program, some videos and background info's. Really nice! The disk is much cheaper than the "paperwork".

[Ring spanner]

Who reads them ? I normally find the in the boot. The FM stowage area is usually full of Mars bars, sick bags and at least afew pens to keep me going for a week:hmm:

[cyclicmicky]

Take a looky see here guys,
http://search.ebay.com/helicopters_W0QQfromZR8QQfrtsZ50QQfsooZ1QQfsopZ1
All sorts of manuals turn up on ebay,
it may be of help, maybe not, but its sometimes worth checking out.
All the Best,
Micky

[lamanated]

anyone know if the oil drains out when I pull the filter

[moosp]

A question on fitting the floats for those of you who have done this.

There is a strap kit to hold the floats in their up position when the wheels are fitted for ground handling. Has anyone tried opening out the hole in the fuselage eyelet so that the pip-pin that locates the floats onto the skids will fit in the eyelet? It looks like about a mm will do, then you can support the floats on the pin when they are in the up position.

This should save the complication and cost of the strap kit.

Many thanks for any extra advice on the floats is also appreciated. (Apart from don't get in a situation where you have to use them...)

[lamanated]

with a new ship,Human resources asked what the ec120 is like compared to a 206 or a 500.I need to describe what the ship is like technically etc with the vemd being advanced technology, etc,so I thought I postb it here to get anyones opinion...

[3top]

lamanated,

ec120 cruises faster than any 206, has no center column to block rear pax view, is about a 35 year more modern aircraft, has a cavern as a luggage space (compared to the 206, 500 doesn't have any at all) 120 will outperform a 206 everywhere up to about 4500 ft, then it gets tight, 5500 and the multistage compressor of the Allison Turbine (ups....RR!) takes the lead again.
If your job is not cargo or police or anything very specific forget the 500! MD is also in financial trouble (or did Sikorsky already assimilate Hughes/MD ?)
If your main job is VIP/corporate/tourism take the 120 hands down.
Even if EC is sometimes a little peculiar with their service you hardly ever will need them. Generally the bird is a very trouble free machine! VEMD is nice as you don't have to watch 3 different gauges will really helps when flying in close quarters or at the redline. Overlimit indications have a huge tolerance ( warning comes way before anything registers on the VEMD flightreport system). This feature is also VERY nice if you are not the only pilot! A quick look in the flight log before you take the machine out will confirm if anyone went over any limits lately!

Make sure the helicopter is well track+balanced and rotor rpm at the upper limit at max cruise and you will be happy! (There was a recent service letter to adjust the Rotor rpm to coincide with the resonance dampers under the floor. Best results are as mentioned above, max cruise power - rrpm 412-413)

3top:cool:

[lamanated]

We have had 500's for 20 yrs,and I need to tell the company why this aircraft should qualify me as a different pay scale etc whereas it is as complex as what a technician making 15K more than me working on air conditioners and heaters gets here..

[Freewheel]

Anybody heard anything about an EC120 upgrade with a more power, higher transmission hp & a weight increase?

[Dynamic Component]

Freewheel,
Been asking the same question for ages.We would buy one in a heartbeat if they fixed the vibration(Caused by the MGB's method of attachment)and allowed it to use a bit more power.They say it will compete to closely with the AS350:mad:

[Freewheel]

DC,

I was of the understanding that EC's release of the field kit for conversion of AS350B & BA to B2 was a forerunner to upgrading the EC120 in a similar way.

Any word from EC-philes?

[lamanated]

couple of questions??anyone know if the centre rear seat needs a certain weight in it.a man and child,for example if the man sits on the outside,is that kosher,and secondly does anyone find 4 pax an tad much for her...

[Haggis Hunter]

Just thinking guys...

Like the AS350/355, you get get a four pax layout for the rear, can you get that or somethign similar for the Colibri?

I'd imagine it would cause CofG issues, but I am just wondering... please tell me if this a very stupid question!

HH:cool:

[Billywizz]

with Pax in the rear, as per POH
a) one person would occupy the centre seat.
b) two persons would occupy the outer two seats

The reason for this is the locking pins on the crash seats are activated by the seat belts.

With 4 pax you have to be very careful of the CofG limits, it is very easy to to have too much forward CofG and lose Aft cyclic control

[John Eacott]

Anybody heard anything about an EC120 upgrade with a more power, higher transmission hp & a weight increase?

Absolutely not going to happen, according to Eurocopter. "There is sufficient power available", with a Gallic shrug. Followed by the assertion that an upgraded EC120 would be encroaching on the Squirrel B2 market/performance, so "we can sell you a B2 with an extra passenger seat thrown in for free" ;) :rolleyes:

Then again, never say "never" :p

[lamanated]

anyone with an idea for storing things long term like life jackets,maps logbooks..
If you can't use under the seats,copilot has heater also

[RetroRetro]

I know this is the kind of question that if you ask you can't afford it, but how much is a EC120B new?

Tried to look on the internet, but all the ones for sale are POA.

Thanks

[Thomas coupling]

I have it on good authority that if you buy in dollars, a new EC120 will set you back approximately $1.2 million USD. [About £640,000GBP].

I know of one (subject to insurance clearance) with very low hours, having just had a major annual, going for about £400,000GBP;)

[Billywizz]

It really does depend on what avionics package you have. The basic cost is around the £400k mark but is significantly increased with any equipment you have installed, plus paint job, plus leather seats, plus HiFi/CD etc. There are a few used machines around for sale in europe that would be a better deal.
The 120 I have been flying was a high spec 500hr aircraft and recently sold for around £550k.
Don't forget about the maintenance costs, they can run to $20k per year!
Lovely machine to fly though.

[moosp]

Heard a rumour that an EC120 had gone down in India, with loss of life. Does anyone have any more information?

My interest is that of an EC120 operator, that is all.

[OCTANE100]

Speaking to an indian mate tonight, to his knowledge c3POB incl. an indian minister and a wealthy local business tycoon. There were fatalities, unsure how many and the a/c was operated by the government............apparent engine failure

[Heliport]

Pakistan Times report Two Indian provincial ministers, Pilot killed in air crash

NEW DELHI (India): A pilot and two provincial ministers, one of them a billionaire industrialist, were killed on Thursday when their helicopter crashed in a village in the northern Indian state of Uttar Pradesh, police said.

http://pakistantimes.net/2005/04/01/heli_crash_ind.jpg

Two others on board the seven-seat private executive helicopter were injured in the crash in the village of Gangoh, police superintendent S. A. Rizvi said, adding that one of them was in critical condition.

Haryana state power minister Om Prakash Jindal ¡ª head of the $2.2-billion steel manufacturing Jindal group ¡ª his colleague, agriculture minister Surinder Singh, and the pilot died instantly when the French-made aircraft crashed after a mid-air engine failure, officials said.

Survivor Ved Goyal, a relative of Jindal, later told private television networks that the New Delhi-bound aircraft came down moments after its engine failed some 30 minutes after taking off from the Harayana state capital of Chandigarh.
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/asiapcf/9808/19/india.landslide.01/india.uttar.pradesh.lucknow.jpg

[Recuperator]

Last time I checked the EC 120 was certified with only 5 seats.

[moosp]

Thanks for the news feed. It looks a bad one. Probably more to this than a basic engine failure as Mr S implies.

[widgeon]

Did the helicopter crash near a big crowd of people or are all those people there to look at the crash.?. Sad , is this the first fatal in an EC120 ?

[SASless]

I would imagine it does not take long to draw a crowd in India....no shortage of people there.

[Heliport]

The Hindu Copter crash: DGCA orders enquiry

NEW DELHI. The Directorate-General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) has ordered an enquiry into the helicopter crash that took place near Saharanpur in Uttar Pradesh today in which three persons, including two Haryana Ministers were killed.

The Joint Director in the DGCA, P.K. Chattopadhyay, has been appointed the Inspector of Accidents to head the enquiry, official sources said.

The ill-fated helicopter, VTVYJ type B-120, of India Flying Safe Aviation Limited (Jindal Group) took off from Chandigarh at 11.32 a.m. and landed at Rajinder Park helipad to pick its passengers en route Delhi. It reported over Sarswa Air Traffic Control near Saharanpur at 12.17 noon.

ATC asked the copter to report when he was 15 metres out of Sarsawa, after which the copter lost contact. The crash site is reported to be 25 km from tehsil Nakud.

The pilot was Col. T.S. Chauhan who had been checked and certified by Eurocopter in December 2004. "report when he was 15 metres out of Sarsawa" ?

SAHARANPUR (UTTAR PRADESH). The Haryana Agriculture Minister, Surender Singh, 59, and his Cabinet colleague and industrialist, O.P. Jindal, 75, were killed this afternoon when their helicopter crashed near Mehnge village here. They were on their way from Chandigarh to New Delhi.

Mr. Surender Singh is the son of the former Chief Minister, Bansi Lal. Mr. Jindal, father of Naveen Jindal, Congress MP, held the Power portfolio.

The pilot, P. S. Chauhan, was alive when the villagers reached the crash site, but died later. The other two occupants of the French-made Euro King helicopter — Haryana MLA Ved Goyal, and Mr. Jindal's Personal Security Officer, Vinod Kumar — miraculously survived with leg and back injuries. They were admitted to hospital here.

The helicopter, with the call sign of VTVYJ had been one of two bought by Mr. Jindal six months ago and had been used extensively in the last Haryana Assembly elections. It had lifted off from Chandigarh around noon. It crashed 35 minutes later after apparently developing a technical snag. An eyewitness, Sukhdev Singh, who was working on the fields when the chopper crashed less than 100 metres from him, said: "The helicopter from which a strange sound was emanating had first flown past Mehnge village. However, it soon returned wobbling in the air and hovered around a bit as the pilot was apparently looking for a wet field to land on. But then it just crashed on the field where peasants were cutting wheat."

Mr. Singh said on hitting the ground, the helicopter first went up 20 feet in the air before coming down on its left side.

"Since the chopper had not caught fire, villagers immediately rushed to it and pulled out all the five persons. Mr. Jindal and Mr. Singh were already dead," he said.

The last rites of Mr. Singh and Mr. Jindal will be held with full state honours in Bhiwani and Hissar. The Haryana Government has declared a three-day State mourning. The Directorate-General of Civil Aviation has instituted an inquiry into the crash, the Civil Aviation Minister, Praful Patel, said in New Delhi.

[rotorspeed]

From this last report doesn't sound like a simple engine failure and of course reports of strange sounds are notoriously unreliable. From the wreckage doesn't actually look like a particularly high energy accident which maybe fits with reported "hovering looking to land" story. With no fire too, it shouldn't be too hard to identify cause, one hopes. Very sad.

[belly tank]

Looks like the tail is somewhat missing!...with some damage done to the right front skid. Pilots door seems to be damaged with the MR Blades still in reasonable shape considering an impact. maybe an overpitching stall related occurence???... im sure the verdict will come out soon. condolences to the families of the crew and pax :(

[Sensible Garage]

guesstimating this is the one:

Name Manuf. Sr. No. AUW Class Owner Operator
VT-JPL EUROCOPTER EC130 3802 2427 H INDIA FLYSAFE AVIATION LIMITED INDIA FLYSAFE AVIATION LTD.

an other newspaper was talking about EC130 as well

[Dynamic Component]

Could it be a EC130??

Can't make out any definate 120 parts in the photo and earlier report said 7 seater!

My thoughts do go out to the families of the lost ones.:(

[moosp]

Battery problems again.

Went to the machine and the battery was so low that it would not light up the VMD. We replaced the battery a few months ago ($$$) and we have noticed a gradual reduction in the voltage over the last few weeks. "Warm" starts were seen.

This has been done before on this thread, but I cannot find any real answer. Some say "leave the GEN switch on, because an engineer told them to"; some say disconnect the battery, probably a smart move but why should we need to? And in the back of the mind is that battery problems are often the source of overheats on start. Expensive.

A couple of questions. Has anyone found where the wiggly amps are going? If the map light rheostats are off, what else could run the battery down? If we go for a lead-acid battery which I have seen in Australia, (which will be an authorisation problem here,) does that improve things?

If your LAME's have an answer we would be delighted to know.

[jellycopter]

I've always disconnected the batt on the EC120 whenever it's left standing for more than about 4 hours. Never had a batt problem. Incidentally, I use the same precaution on the Gazelle and A109. J

[moosp]

Yes, several people do that and it seems to keep the battery up there. But why should we need to do this on a machine that costs 10 times that of a Mercedes?

How about a battery isolation switch right next to the battery. Anyone tried that either on, or without, an STC?

[EMS R22]

There was an EC120 doing ag work up until a few months ago in the South Island of NZ.I think the first one to be fitted with spray gear.Im not sure if this is correct,can any one help please?

[helmet fire]

During my endorsement training from the factory pilot, he pulled out a wiring diagram of why we should leave the generator switch on. So I do, and I have had no issues. Recently, I have noticed that everyone keeps disconnecting the battery as well, so like a good sheep, I now do that too!!

I figure that if you can remember to disconnect the battery, you can remember to turn off all the switches..but hey, that's just me.

moosp, why dont you just think of the generator switch as your battery isolation switch, because that is what it does? No STC, no mod, no cost.

[Billywizz]

I was also told to disconnect the battery on our aircraft after it went flat. The maintenance guys never really gave an explanation why, other than something on the hardware was responsible.
We looked at buying a spare battery but they are very expensive from Eurocopter, I could purchase the exact same battery from an aviation battery supplier here in the UK for £1200 LESS than from EC!.
Technically you should be a qualified engineer to change the battery as it is bolted to the aircraft .
Invested in a ground power unit and only ever used it on one occasion when volts were slightly low

[leemind]

moosp,

Why don't you (or your engineers) turn everything off, pop open the battery compartment and stick an ammeter from the battery to the main lead.

Then get someone else to switch things on (e.g. battery switch / generator) to see what is drawing any power when the thing is on the ground.

After that you'll know what you can leave on on the ground and what has to be turned off.

[moosp]

Thank you for your replies.

I think it would be interesting to put an induction ammeter over the battery anode lead with the generator switch both on and off and see if there is any drain. I'll see if our engineers can do a test.

I have heard of leaving the gen switch on after shut down before, so it is probably a good idea, even though not promulgated by EC. Something to do with the field windings being hard wired to the battery perhaps?

We have a GPU, very swish and locally made which we use a lot from home base.