EC120

[jellycopter]

Moosp

If you disconnect the battery and then stick your head in the boot (trunk) and reconnect the battery, you'll here a relay 'click'. I don't know which relay or why, but I know if it clicks when you add power, it must be drawing some current, however small.

That's why I always disconnect the battery.

PS. Don't try to disconnect or reconnect the battery when you're in a hurry as my freind did. He had his car keys in the same hand he was trying to turn the battery terminal with. A bright flash and some instantaneous arc welding later and he was stuck .... car ignition key welded to the battery terminal! Couldn't start the chopper because he couldn't get the batt connected; couldn't start the car because his key was welded to the batt and to cap it all, there was no mobile phone signal to call for help! Why does it always come in threes?

J

J

[Fun Police]

i've looked everywhere i can think of but i cannot seem to find a direct operating cost for the 120. can anyone give me a rough idea please?

[moosp]

As our accountant would reply, "what would you like it to be?"


It depends on your country of operation, city, usage, new or old. Try these for ideas, based on ours, in an expensive country.

Second hand cost, USD1M, leasing costs 4,500 per month

Fuel at 100L per hour (roughly). This varies greatly around the world so check your supplier. Multiply by hours per month. We pay US$ 1.80 per litre, yes LITRE.

Insurance. Around US$3,000 per month. Maybe cheaper around the world.

Hangarage. Varies greatly, depends on your airport/heliport or farm building. Try US$500 per month.

Scheduled maintenance. However much a 100 hour is in your part of the world. It takes about 18 man hours, with a few fluids to replace. Around $2,000 but we have a deal.

"Unscheduled" maintenance. Including 50 hour and 25 hour checks if your muffins of a CAA demand them over and above the EC required inspections. (Like ours does :* ) Pro rate from 100 hour.

Occasional SB's to fix, usually of an inspection nature. Allow $2,000 per month.

Say $450 per hour for a 500 hour year? Your mileage will definitely vary.

[3top]

To the battery/gen-switch:

It was recommended by the factory techs to keep the gen-switch on at all times - it seems if off the power drains through the starter circuit ??

We changed the factory SAFT battery to a CONCORD.
This comes in a kit, as there is a difference in the mounting hardware + most likely there is some adjustment at the voltage regulator. Seems the Concord battery runs a different resistance level. If this is not adjusted you will constantly get an over-voltage warning: 28.9 to 29.6 V, nominal would be 28V.

One advantage of the Concord is that the outer shell is plastic and generally isolating. Unlike the SAFT with its metal housing, you should have a hard time welding your carkeys to any of the terminals! :D

Cheers,
3top
:cool:

PS: How long are your Starter/Generator carbon packs (brushes) holding?

[MPT]

G'day All,

A little birdie told me that a nice shiny new EC120 isn't so nice any more after it went down near Canberra the other day. All aboard escaped without injury, with the pilot claiming "engine failure". Very lucky indeed, as the machine appears to be a write off!!

Cheers,

MPT

[bladebanger]

MPT

Give it up. Who was it? Not GL I hope.

Banger

[MPT]

G'day bladebanger,

My sources tell me that it was being flown by its owner JS, a well known Canberra businessman. I guess the whizz bang computer will be able to tell us the details of the "engine failure".

Cheers,

MPT

(edited to fix finger trouble)

[helmet fire]

MPT,
I guess by the inverted commas over "engine failure" that there is something more to the story?

This would be the first engine failure in a EC120 in Oz, have there been that many with this new tech engine and it's trend monitoring?

I ask here with a view to seeing if, and when, engines might be reliable enough for single engine IFR.

[MPT]

G'day helmet fire,

Wouldn't like to comment further on the "engine failure" until the download's completed and analysed. As a matter of interest, which machine would be used for the IFR ops? I understood that the EC120 was VFR only.

Cheers,

MPT

[helmet fire]

MPT,
I am not considering using one, I am just intrested in the future prospects. The Koala owned by CareFlight haas an autopilot, but only one donk, and there is an NZ B3 squirrel that was made IFR with an autopilot and extra hydraulic pack at Sydney EC.

[widgeon]

Where is the second generator driven from ?. The sole US IFR BA i think had something that took power from the TR drive. ( or was that where the AC drive came from )

[MPT]

helmet fire / widgeon,

Interesting discussion on single engined IFR looming here! I remember some mods being done on the ADF squirrels in Canberra. Didn't they modify the hydraulics to enable the "less muscled" to fly them after a couple of accidents during hydraulics off training?

I know of one 206B and one 206L IFR ships, and I had heard of the kiwi AS350 one. Are there any plans to offer an IFR Koala or 407? Would the addition of IFR capabilities to singles be useful to the EMS operators currently utilising these types with the possibility of NVG's becoming available in the near future?

Cheers,

MPT

[helmet fire]

Dont know about the second generator. The ADF Squirrels were AUW weight restricted following upgrade to BA wieghts and a HYD off bingle. I think the intent of Augusta was two fold: make the Koala as similar as possible as the twins to save on components, and set the Koala up way in front of any competition for certification if SE IFR became a reality in the US.

MPT, NVG is no substitute for IFR in any sense of the usage, nor is inadvertent IMC more likely on NVG, it is less likely. That said, an autopilot system was a reccomendation from the NVFR Mackay accident investigation, even though they identified no conclusive cause. Additionally, an autopilot is an excellent risk mitigation tool for night EMS and should be encouraged. As should NVG.

Back to the 120: anyone know of other engine failures in this type?

[SASless]

There we are in the middle of the night...over hostile terrain...IFR in our Bell 206.....clouds right down into the tree tops....

OH MY! Just woke up....it was all just a very bad dream! Must lay off the Anchovie Sandwiches!

You can take all your statistics about engine failures....and stick'em Sir....the ramifications of a single donk dying in those conditions suggest to me that some things are best left alone. (...and yes...I have flown a Cessna 208 Caravan IFR over hostile terrain IFR....)and had an anxiety attack in the middle of it one night. Bore sighting the only engine on that thing....and seeing the tippy tops of the "Alps-like" mountains around Levenworth, Washington poking up out of the clouds into the moonlit sky brought home what engine failures are all about. I have sinned too much to rely upon Heavenly Intervention to allow many exposures like that.

One man's opinion

:ugh:

[eagle 86]

Just a correction - the CareFlight Koala does not have an autopilot, it has a Stability Augmentation System - there is a great difference.
gags
E86

[helmet fire]

Appologies eagle.

SASless, I hear you, though I did mine in a Huey not a 206. Give me two every time!!!

zebeedee, your marine pilot example is indicative of a comment I made on the IFR Training confusion thread: what is legal Vs best practice? We all have a different view of best practice dont we?

and yes: burn me at the stake INADVERTANT IMC IS LESS LIKELY WITH NVG. And you can quote me!
:ok:

[justanothernumber]

INADVERTANT IMC IS LESS LIKELY WITH NVG :D :D

There's always one ... :rolleyes: :ok:

[helmet fire]

as I said, you can quote me.

Oh, and i would be very suprised to be the Lone Ranger on this one. you may find more than just one of us.

let the burning begin........

[eagle 86]

I'm with HF - my limited experience of NVG shows that, under certain circumstances, NVG can allow you to see cloud B4 you enter it. As a day/night VFR EMS pilot I have gone inadvertant IMC a couple of times - I would like to have seen these cloud banks and had some chance of avoiding entering them.
BTW I remain a huge fan of multi-engine ifr helos.
gags e86

[MPT]

G'day All,

Could someone explain to me the difference between an autopilot and a SAS. I've flown a 206 with a steam powered autopilot (there are a couple of NVFR machines around with them fitted) a while ago. Is that classed as an autopilot under IFR/NVFR MPT regulations?

Cheers,
MPT

[212man]

In simple terms, a SAS will give you short term rate damping but no long term attitude hold. A basic AP will give you long term Attitude retention e.g. you deflect the cyclic aft to raise the nose 10 degrees, then release it, and the a/c will return to the original pitch attitude.

A more sophisticated AP will give you 'outer loop', or 'upper mode' functions whereby it will couple to external references, such as Altitude, IAS, HDG, NAV and/or ILS (the number of discretes will depend on the sophistication of the AP). If very sophisticated, it will have full control of all 4 control axes and may allow transitions to the hover and other such SAR functions.

[Ogsplash]

"I am also familiar with how this has been done successfully from Port Hedland (WA) for more than 20 years without serious incident. Well done to everyone in that task!"

Um, B206 into the water at night a few years back (about 5 I think but happy to be corrected).

[giveitsome]

Thought I might chime in on this one fellas since I have some "time up" in this department.

NVG/NVD offers an increased capability below LSALT at night and that is gold, however as I have shown to many a trainee, this is a double edged sword. Yes you can see the cloud banks and manouvre to avoid them but you can also find yourself thinking that what you are seeing is not too bad or improving and then suddenly without too much warning you are in IMC without too much trouble. Now some of you may think, no probs If I get into too much touble I will simply land cancel SAR and wait for the wx to pass. Doesn't really work in an over water SAR or High and rugged mountainous terrain where there are few LZ ' or LP's. The trick is in all flying sequences is to have a plan and arm yourself with a CIR and a robust IF currency regime.

To launch into marginal VMC wx thinking you can see and avoid the fluffy stuff simply because you are aided (NVG equipped)without an escape route or access to an instrument recovery (notamed as serv) is a recipe for disaster and plain stupid.

Careful what you wish for when it comes to NVG's. They are an excellent tool and enhance SA and capability but like most things, You don't get something for nothing.

IMHO

Give it some.

:ok:

[Mark Six]

Og, are you thinking of the one off Dampier? More like 7 years ago. I filled in for a couple of weeks on the same job just before the accident. A real eye-opener. Would not want to do it without an IF background.
Have not heard from PR.

[helmet fire]

I wonder if we should start ANOTHER thread on the NVG thing?

giveitsome, are you claiming you have been inadvertant IMC with many a student, or that you have correctly educated them to be careful of poor weather? What was it in your training that makes it safe for you to avoid IMC, and can that not simply be passed on to others as it was passed on to you?

The question was wether it was easier to avoid inadvertant IMC or not. The answer is still a yes.

as for your statement that:

To launch into marginal VMC wx thinking you can see and avoid the fluffy stuff simply because you are aided (NVG equipped)without an escape route or access to an instrument recovery (notamed as serv) is a recipe for disaster and plain stupid.

a tad emotive perhaps, and certainly misleading. Who on earth said that we would be considering launching into marginal vmc? Wouldn't this be equally stupid during the day? Or do people suddenly loose their wits at night? Methinks you need to review the wx minima for civilian NVG ops.

What we are talking about here is replacing NVFR with NVG. Wx, equipment, crewing everything is roughly the same, just do it with NVG. We are not talking about 50ft with a TOT to a dusty pad un recce'd in formation! Why require a CIR, etc etc, when you are making NVFR safer? You dont need it for NVFR, so lets not get histerical by adding lots of requirements to do it on NVG. 10 plus years of civ ops in the USA and Switzerland is a relatively good yardstick.

We have had poor viz CFIT accidents during the day, the night, and even IFR, and we havent movd to ban those regimes. Eventually a CFIT will occur with NVG fitted. You get that. But should we ignore the tens of accidents that would not otherwise have occured NVFR and NIFR simply because we fear 1 accident? If so, and using the same rationale lets stop flying during the day too, because that has encouraged people to push the weather hasn't it?

On to the 120 (that is the thread isn't it?) a grapevine wisper is that the pilot has done a great job to get the aircraft down without serious injury. If so, well done that man!

[giveitsome]

Hey there HF.

Yes your right mate Iv'e been IIMC many a time with a trainee on NVD's as you can do that sort of stuff in a level 5 Full Flight and mission simulator with the wx set up for the just the sort of thing you are talking about with low risk and infinite training outcomes.

As for re-reading my wx minimas, think we'll save that for the "tad emotive punters". Sounds like you think ten years is a long time to be flying-There's always one.

Sorry to hijack your 120 thread.

Yes NVD would make NVFR much safer but this is not the only issue here. The industry needs to get serious when it comes to these missions. Along with the NVD's you need other bits and pieces such as Auto Pilots, SAS Systems, 2 Engines and another pilot to hold the sticks while you nav, and a GPS that is worth is extra AUW.

ACFT then need to be fitted with NVG compatible lighting and SOP's need to be drawn up to cover procedures (goggle up degoggle and goggle failure below LSALT), these need to be tied in with your own local rules and regs. NVG's require a fair amount of servicing and need to be stored in a climate controlled environment for best longevity.-Lots to think about.

The point is you can't just go and buy a pair off the shelf and then and expect you can operate in a similar vein to the way you operated yesterday.

NVGs sure help but lots of infrastructure required and robust training required to prevent the CFIT you were talking about.


Again IMHO

Give It Some


:cool:

[grenade]

What happened to the EC120?

[w_ocker]

You should know Grenade... :}

I too believe congrats are due to the driver for making it in, whatever the cause of the malfunction.

G.I.S. I agree with your points re the costs and dificulties of setting up and NVD program - as, in the whole, would HF I think. There are many difficulties involved and these are being looked at by industry discussion groups as we speak (groups involving HF, I'm pretty certain).

His point that NVD actually help in avoiding IIMC is, I believe, well put as long as it is qualified with the statement that we are talking about civil ops where we can have far more restrictive minima than for mil ops. Civ ops would not fly tactically lit, at min alt, flat out and in formation. In these situations, yes I agree completely that IIMC is a real consideration (been there myself actually). However, for civ ops, a more restrictive min WX and illum minima, coupled with non-tac environment and nothing even approaching NOE flight, would allow us to avoid the areas where IIMC become likely. I think you alluded to the thought process of "I think I can dodge that fuzzy patch or even make it though". Well, I reckon that it just takes us to set the pilot thought process to "looks a bit fuzzy over there, will avoid it now rather than waiting and seeing", much like avoiding the clear area under a CB anvil due to the likelyhood of hail that might or might not actually be there.

I for one want nothing more than the ability to see the hills and obstacles that the maps tell me are there every night job. I'd also love to be able to not turn down so many winter night jobs because of the likelyhood of ice that could be avoided if NVD allowed us a lower LSALT. Its the EMS driver's lot to understand that not all jobs can be achieved, but its hard knowing that people in trouble could have been helped if I could have used existing technology that I am already trained to use to go and help them.

Oops, there I go getting emotive. Appologies all. :yuk:

[helmet fire]

GIS,
you are spot on with the training and infrastructure part - it needs to be got right from day one for NVG. But the 2 engines, SAS/autopilots, CIR and second pilots to help you nav, well I can only refer you to the flight profiles intended. In Aust, the proposal is to go to the scene at 500 ft, spend a long time doing the recce, and land. We can do that right now (albeit at 1000ft) with a nitesun, single pilot, unstabilised and with only one donk. Why does the addition of NVG suddenly require all the extra's? Why add requirements to something that is SAFER?
Hint: if you think that is unsafe, lobby against NVFR rules, dont burden the introduction of a new technology with those issues.

And yep, I think that 10 years is a long time to be operating NVG (it's 15 now in Switzerland). Seems long enough to prove a concept to me, surely. Or maybe I am the only one as you so condescendingly put it.

[eagle 86]

It is my understanding that for Oz ems ops using nvg the proposal is to transit at present lsalt/cruising levels and only when the scene is identified descend into the black hole, as we can do now, only more safely utilising nvg technology. Lets crawl before we walk chaps - if it comes to pass this is going to be a steep learning curve for most of us!
gags e86

[giveitsome]

Hey guys sorry to Hijack the 120 thread but bare with me as I close the loop on some key issues with regards to NVD.

Eagle 86-Well put and very succint.

HF-Greg, don't recall you ever serving/working in Switzerland.

Wocka-Mate your a champ and the content of your post shows a very good understanding of what is around the corner.

Guys-The reason why I am big on 2 engs, 2 pilots, SAS/AP , a TSO 129 compliant GPS and a CIR is for the big "S"-SAFETY. I know this will ultimately cost some more $$$$ in the wash up, but what price do you place on safety?

Consider being single pilot with a goggle failure below LSALT and being instrument un-current or without a CIR in an ACFT like a 206 or B2 Squizza. If you planned for the event and maintained lotsa SA, and kept the IF skills up to date, then you might stand a good chance but recall when most of these missions occur (2 am, Cows Guts night, PIC tired and thinking about something else).

The EMS guys are on the right track with multi eng multi crew and good ACFT systems, good SOPs and TRG. Another set of trained eyes wearing the green toilet rolls is gold when it comes to goggle failure or some other emerg that distracts the pilot below LSALT at night.

What is of concern to me and others in the industry is the mind set of, Buy the stuff off the shelf, do a quick down and dirty NVG cse, launch in your 206 by yourself on a flight note at 2 am and hope for the best-Not a professional approach or worlds best practice.

NVD 's are around the corner no doubt about it, but as we all know NVD's DON'T turn night into day and we should crawl before we walk.

I'm all for the change and technology but lets make sure we have answered ALL the questions prior to approaching the regulator with our wish list.

Most humbly.

Give It Some!!!



:ok:

[helmet fire]

GIS,
I have never worked/served in Switzerland (as you know) and wonder what on earth bought that irrelevance out? And you probably also know that I am big on 2 donks, autopilots, gps, crewman, etc. So we can leave that bit out too.

Onto your scenario the dreaded goggle failure, I will use the proposed and or current Oz CMI to guide us through this, and I will go back through the weather requirements. There you are in your 206 single pilot on gogs. Firstly, I should add, you can do it right now, single pilot NVFR with no gogs.

Tonight you are on gogs, your cruise height will be NB 500 ft (Eagle86, see current CMI and CAR 157). Your weather minima will be NVFR, ie enroute will be 5000m viz clear of cloud at your enroute NVFR LSALT: not at 500, and with alternate minima of 1500 ft ceiling and 8000m viz forecast at destination. If you are going to "a black hole" then your minimum area forecast must be ceiling of 1500 and viz of 8000m. Alternates must be made with respect to lighting, regardless of nitesun carriage.

If you really want to do the "black hole" then you are going to a non permanent or non lit helipad in which case the FAA, NZ and proposed Oz regs will require a second NVG equipped crewperson. The current CMI requires that second person in the front for ALL ops.

Now you suffer the NVG failure: firstly note that mean time between failure MTBF is around 10,000 hours. Better than nitesun, etc. Second, you have two tubes. Third you have an alternate power source. Fourth you can use the spare set of the other crewman's to divert back to base/alternate as a single pilot (though I would leave this option to autopilot equipped acft because changing and refocussing gogs in an unstabilised single pilot acft is just not cricket). Lastly, if all those fail you, revert to NVFR again especially considering you have had to adhere to NVFR rules for weather and equipment in the first place. After reverting to NVFR, simply continue the mission in the old fashioned blind way! That is what I think is the highest risk of the whole affair: someone persisting with NVFR in the age of NVG!!!

Lets say, for your arguement's sake, that the 10,000 hour failure moment does happen during the 0.2% of the flying you do on approach to a black hole. You will have a NVG visible crewman to talk you away from obstcles if you elect to go around, or you degoggle (pilot only) and use the white searchlight that you were already using to finish the approach (Omnibus IV gogs cope well with white light). The difference between this and the nitesun failing on finals is subtle (what is the single globe, single power source nitesun MTBF?) . The NVG crew has a crewman still NVG visible with all obstacles and can call them, the unaided crew will only have that luxury with a hand held or third spotlight if you continue to the approach. Choosing the go around option, only the pilot will have a light in front and obstcles visible if he is quick enough to position that light, but he will be flying off into the unknown black. The NVG pilot will be flying off into the black too, but with a good mental model of where the obstacles are, which path to avoid them, and a crewman who can still see. I conceed that the NVG pilot may have an ill defined and unresearched likelyhood of transition difficulty from aided to unaided, but that's about it.

As for the fear of someone doing the down and dirty NVG course and launching into the gloop in their 206, why must we hamstring all other operators because of the "fear" of a renegade? We are never going to stop them, and we haven't during the day, night, or IFR. Why should NVG suddenly be so protected that we stop the significant safety benefits to 95% of the industry out of fear of 5%?

I will say it again, there will be a CFIT on or with NVG. But there will be tens of accidents averted in the meantime. As you say GIS, what price do you put on safety?

[eagle 86]

Well put HF although regarding CMI i still say softly, softly. I also believe, like Oz firearm laws, you should be required to show a "genuine reason" to possess nvg ie only Government/NGO should be authorised for use - if it becomes open slather then the "use" of nvg may well increase the night accident rate.
gags e86

[helmet fire]

Fair enough e86. One thing on your well founded fear here though, the current NVG technology transfer restrictions from the USA are such that ONLY govt departments are expected to have access to it. Hopefully that will provide a bit of operating experience in Oz with which to better decide if NVG should be expanded to all ops, or restricted to EMS Law. Hope that meets your softly softly consideration.

[giveitsome]

Guys please excuse the discussion imbedded in the 120 thread. If we are to continue the NVG discussion, I move to start a thread on its own titled.

NVG's and NVFR-Your Say.

HF, E 86 and Wock............

My 2 cents......


Alternates-WX Minimas (NVFR, ie enroute 5000m viz clear of cloud at your enroute NVFR LSALT: not at CRZevel, alternate minima of 1500 ft ceiling and 8000m viz forecast at destination).-Good stuff sounds robust and achievable and reflects current legislation.

Lighting-Also well covered by current legislation and regs. Again good stuff no discussion required.

NVD failure Below LSALT-If the CMI specifies two pilots in the front both aided and rear seaters as well then this changes significantly the nature of this emerg as it won't be a single pilot op-Again robust and very safe well thought out.

Technology-MTBF-Data is based on equipment being stored in a climate controlled sanatised environment, poor storage and poor servicing schedules will potentially cause equipment to fail earlier than spec. Could the storage and servicings/care of equipment be guaranteed in a GA environment when this will cost extra $$$$ and more infrastructure ( as well as security of the equipment). In a Govt Contract/EMS environment the $$$$ would probably be forth comming however this would have to be a requirement of the inclusion of the capability.

If the flying pilot (FP) had a single tube failure while conducting flight close to the ground (hover, hoist, rapel etc) then continuing to fly or recover ACFT would be difficult and require significant TRG. Try driving your car on the road with one eye closed, or flying an ACFT by day with one eye closed close to obstacles and try to judge closure rates , depth perception and height cues accurately. If you are already a jet at this please let me in on the secret. Again if both pilots in the front are on the tubes no problem as you simply call out "Goggle Failure, handing over" over the ICS hand over and become the NFP (Non Flying Pilot).

TRG-This is probably the most significant issue amongst all the items we have discussed. There is a high correlation between being a good NVG pilot and having good IF skills, ie If you are well skilled at IF you will most likely be good at NVG also. Since the discussions we have had focus on NVG assisting or replacing NVFR we need to make sure that users have the appropriate level of TRG. What would be undesirable would be to see a guy with a bare bones NVFR rating being also endorsed to use NVG.

As you know NVG is all about looking under the goggles unaided at power, attitude and perf gauges and then out to infinity through the goggles to see that what you saw inside matches up with the picture outside (plus the terrain, signicant obstacles, wires etc). HUD will obviously limit the head down time but this is a discussion for another time. Being good at interogating instruments only comes with practice, TRG and the requisite rating (CIR would be desireable). This may be regulated such that to conduct NVG ops you will require a CIR, however GA is all about $$$, especially saving $$$, so there may be pressure to skimp if not properly legislated.

Mate- I totally agree with you when you say "That is what I think is the highest risk of the whole affair, someone persisting with NVFR in the age of NVG!!!"-Spot On.

NVG is around the corner and will definately enhance SA, mission succes and safety. I am in your court when it comes to this issue. NVFR has had its day and we need to re-think how to do business, but at the same time we need to cover as many of the bases so the regulator doesn't renig and take the capability away at the first sign of trouble. As for the renegade 5%, I think we all understand the "Darwin Awards" and well you just can't legislate against stupid c- - ts.

Down and dirty NVG courses are of concern as a robust NVG culture and system will require quality TRG. This quality TRG costs $$$$ and no one wants to spend it if they don't have to. Again a dilgent response to TRG is required to coverall aspects of operating with NVG.

The ultimate aim of all flying ops is safe and efficient operations. The big "S" SAFETY must come first. All of us are only as good as our TRG and experience.

Again IMHO

Give It Some



:cool:

[helmet fire]

Well said mate.

The point I made about the CIR and IF training is that NVFR requires it more than NVG, so lets lobby to fix the problem there, lets not burden a safer technology with the training bill.

:ok:

[lamanated]

just wondering if anyone has made a list up yet??of the commonly used ones.I see there is a new one needed on the fuel filter because of the service bulletin..So we had to order those up

[Billywizz]

Otter712

We had a set of brushes replaced at 340 hrs and then again at the scheduled 500hr maintenance.
The starter refused to turn over out in the field on one occasion, got around the problem by sticking fingers in the intake of the starter/gen and rotating by hand about half a turn (obviously with the electrics off!). Hit the start button and we were up and running and off to maintenance . Hope this helps

[colibri]

moosp

We had our battery drain down on us several times, even while leaving the GEN switch on, since then always disconnected battery for anything longer than a day. Complained to EC a few times, and then were told that a battery disconnect kit was being made available. Noticed that a local police EC120 delivered after ours had the battery diconnect switch kit installed up by the panel... believe it cost about $5k US.

[widgeon]

http://www.thekcrachannel.com/news/4729714/detail.html#

The 120 does not have Flight data recorder are they referring to the VEMD ? , how much does it save in non volatile memory ?

[B Sousa]

As that part of the world is my old stomping grounds I was interested in the accident. Didnt know the guys but that does not make it any easier. I also understand its not the first EC-120 to have similar problems.
Whats ironic is the fact that I have heard from some who have seen factory demos of some serious training autorotations done by factory pilots, that the aircraft is normally quite survivable during engine out operations from a variety of speeds and altitudes. Would like to know more why this ended in such a tragedy.

[EAGLE31]

Early reports are that the free turbine wheel came apart in flight and most of it went out the tail pipe. The crew entered autorotation and it appears completed the auto to a hillside. It looks as if all survived the auto. Unfortunately the hillside was steep and they slid/ rolled down to a very steep cliff (looks like 100 feet or so) and then rolled down the cliff and came to rest at the bottom. It appears two of the crew were killed in the fall from the cliff and not the auto. The rear passenger survived and is still critical.

Link (http://www.thekcrachannel.com/news/4729714/detail.html)

Our prayers are with the families and crew members.

[R22DRIVER]

Another sad and tragic event.

My thoughts are with the friends and families.

:sad:

[Ossewa]

Can anyone give me some advice?

We've had an ongoing problem with the engine chip light on one of our EC120's. When you pull the plug (on the module one) there are some times very fine chips, but other times it's only carbon.

The guys from Turbomecca said that the 120 plugs are "over" sensitive and they are actually trying to replace them.

Maybe some other 120 drivers have experience with the same set of problems and can give some pointers.


Regards and safe flying.

[hmb77]

I used to fly the 120 and we have had the same problem. Lots of chip lights, both ENG and X-MSN and when we pull them out we usually find very small shavings or nothing at all. It still gets my blod pumping though, flying around and all of a sudden that light comes on. I fly over water and I find that a little less comfy than beeing over dry land when it comes on. Anyway...it seems to be a pretty common problem withthe 120.

[EAGLE31]

We operate 3 120's with our highest time ship having around 4,500 hours on it. We rarely have chip lights. Usually after an engine overhaul we will get a couple for about the first week and then none untill the next overhaul. It is very common to get them right after the engine has been reworked. When we do get them they are very small "hairs" and are not a problem.

[RSH 01]

Interested to compare the direct operating costs of an EC120 vs B206? Would it be true to say that the B206 has a DOC of about £200-£250/hr?
Also interested to hear what pilots think of both helicopters? I've heard that the EC120 has a lack of power?

[RSH 01]

You don't happen to know the operating costs per hr do you?

[Ian Corrigible]

The two ships are near identical at £191-195/hr, according to C&D (VOCs only).

I/C

[lamanated]

just got a technical letter to tell us to sit as you please I guess......

[rotorfloat]

Know a few engineers who wrench on 120's here in canada. Most of their comments seem to be "They're not a bush machine (yet...), there's so many AD's and newer parts being mandated that an engineer would have to be on site with the machine all the time."

But I'm sure 206's had that problem. Guess we'll have to give the 120 nearly 40 years and see how it's doing.

[moosp]

Colibri,

Thanks for that. Ours is with EC Singapore right now getting some repairs done, and I have asked them about the battery problem, and how I have seen some machines with a device like a truck battery switch fitted in the earth line. They had not heard of it, but after they ask France maybe we'll hear more.

[goaround7]

We find it very difficult to sell charters on EC120 as although faster, it's higher purchase cost makes it too expensive.

Many pax don't like EC120 plastic appearance inside but love the outside look.

[MAINROTOR]

EC120!

Can’t budge for the B206, cause I haven’t flown it. Some of my friends tell me it’s a very good machine and a pleasure to fly, but from my point of view the EC120 is the best. It’s a “Pilot’s” machine; you really need to “fly” it. Yes the power is limited, but that’s where the “flying” part comes into play. One has to “nurse” her and if you screw it up there’s always the VEMD that records it… So if the previous guy made a big hash of things, you’ll know it immediately, not 1 year down the line at 500 feet agl and at 100 knots…!

The 120 gets my vote!

[Billywizz]

the EC120 is what the 206 should have evolved into.
The lack of the bulkhead makes it more pleasuable for both pilot & pax. Obviously the 120 will have teething problems and eurocopter are making improvements all the time, whereas the 206 is a great reliable workhorse. With little competion to challenge the 206 for the past forty years, Bell didn't really need to spend more money developing the machine( and getting approvals $$$)

[paco]

Not flown it (yet), but looking for a project. I'm told the 120 also has a "complex" C of G arrangement, and is a pig to start up again within half an hour of shutting down, without opening the engine cowlings. Also, the throttle can get stiff after a while. Maybe someone else who operates them in the real world can put me straight?

For the project I'm looking at, the above concerns won't figure anyway, but they're still good to know about. And why would you deliberately choose an underpowered machine? Surely these days there's no excuse for that?

Phil

[goaround7]

EC120 start and re-start have been discussed at great length on and off this forum. It's not a big deal as long as you follow the correct procedure. You can shut down, vent and start again immediately with no problem AS LONG AS your battery is good.

Main issue is that once you go through the gate the battery needs to retain the voltage to operate the relay to open the throttle stop so you can close the juice should a hot start look likely. Unfortunately, that could be due to a sudden drop in battery voltage itself which means you are buggered. Just watch the voltage and if it heads south of 17V then consider aborting and rolling out the ground power.

Some people, pilots and pax, prefer a bulkhead between them and a lot of pax don't like the way the 120 flies - waves its nose if you are not very careful and some, like the one I fly, have vibration problems that have proved hard to get rid of.

New modular Bell helicopters should give EC a run for its money.

EC's power is fine at sea level or ISA but in Africa or central Spain where you get hot and high, they just don't perform and take about three miles to get through transition.

Also, you can only take a v small adult or child in the front if you have a few pax and although it will take off and fly okay, you are quickly out of the CofG envelope which could get interesting if you have to auto. Have the findings on the US police 120 engine failure and fatal crash come through yet ?

Many guys don't like fenestrom and it is weak when hot and high - heard it is much smaller than originally planned to be - but you get used to using more foot earlier than on conventional tail rotor system. And it is sooo quiet, it's usually landed before people notice it arriving.

Baggage compartment is huge and with removable seats, access panel to rear and sliding door, the features combine to make a versatile machine for filming and other fun stuff. We have used it as a baggage carrier when taking two or three fully loaded 407s somewhere. It almost keeps up too.

VEMD is like a traitor on board that doesn't actually give you a fair chance, like say FADEC on the 407 does. Good for owners, unnerving for pilots.

It's a helicopter I like to be seen getting out of, review emergency and start procedures very carefully before flying, and don't trust the way I do a Jet Ranger. Wish it were a mini Squirrel but it ain't....yet.

[ThomasTheTankEngine]

I found the 120 to be quite well powered compared to the 206, I have only operated both machines at sea level. The 120 doesn't have the big rise in TOT when you do a pedal turn.

Phil if your referring to a hot start with a warm engine simply open the throttle just short of flight idle to avoid a hot start, This works really well on the 120.

I really like the 120 and found it easy to fly, Goaround7 summed it up. The CG does normally fall to far forward with 5 adults onboard but I found this problem with all helicopter I’ve flown with more than 4 seats and each seat occupied by an adult.

The sliding door can cause a few problems and be quite hard to close, The one we operated always use to catch the paint work on the engine cowling with the slide mechanism.

Did you read about the passenger sat in the rear in France the sliding door wasn't closed correctly and opened, the door blew away, Passenger grabbed the door he wasn't wearing his seat belt, he got pulled out by the door and fell to his death.

[paco]

I thought that incident was with a Squirrel!

Our loads are standard, so the CG would not necessarily be a problem. How is it for observation and noise from the outside?

Phil

[ThomasTheTankEngine]

Hi Phil

I think it was a 120 if I remember correct I read it in GASIL so ill have a look.

I found the 120 quite good for photo & filming work, Camera men seem to like the big open door, Plus you can fly left or right seat PIC so it make filming easier with the sliding door on the left side.

Noise level in the cabin was good passenger's seemed to like it.

One comment would be the cloth seats on a longer flight (2 hours +) are not to comfortable you sink into them to much, I flew one a few months back with leather seat this was a lot more comfortable.

For the rear head sets the are no hooks to hang them on 2 fit between the headrests on the rear seats but the 3rd just sits on the seat, You need to watch the pax don't place the rear head sets between the rear seats and the window scratching the glass. For the price I'd of thought Eurocopter could have added a something to hang the headsets on.

We wasn’t allowed to use standard load plans like in the UK in the last company I worked for we always had to make a calculation, which was a pain.

[moosp]

One difference you really notice is the age of the design of the two machines. B206 - sixties technology and ergonomics. EC120, mid nineties. Everything from built-in safety/crashworthiness to passenger comfort and view has evolved in that time.

Payload/range of the EC120 can be a problem if you need to carry four big pax and their luggage. You won't get very far. But for private flying and joyrides, I don't think you can beat it. Unless you can afford an EC130, in which case go for it and enjoy, and can I have a go??? :O

[Ascend Charlie]

In warmer climates, the cockpit temperature is ridiculous. There is too much solar radiation coming in through that floor-level glass, and not enough fresh air to cool off. That stupid air vent just blows in your eyes and makes them sore, while your feet (in black shoes) and legs (in navy trousers) turn to stewed mush. Passengers lean away from any sunshine and towards any incoming air. Too bloody European.

The B206 foot-level vent is desperately needed in this machine. Opening the side window has little effect because the bird is so aerodynamically slick. Try flying for an hour with your left hand on the cyclic and your right hand out the window scooping air in.

The long reach for the door and the dificulty in closing it when the carpet jams the edge, make it a frustrating machine.

Otherwise, it was pretty good, although it should be called an EC110, because i could never get 120 kts out of it.

[Helmet Head]

Probably be an AD released I'm guessing
"TURBOMECA has been informed of an accident which occured on July, 13th 2005 in Nimbus Dam (California,
USA) on an EC 120B fitted with an Arrius 2F engine. The NTSB is currently conducting an investigation, in which
TURBOMECA is actively involved.
The first results from the investigation indicate:
- the rupture of free turbine blades, contained inside the engine
- gas generator damage
- deterioration of the constant delta pressure diaphragm.
The most likely explanation for this event would be the deterioration of the constant delta pressure diaphragm that
could have led to an increase of the fuel flow and of the gas generator speed. Even though the information that we
have in our possession at this point is not sufficient enough to establish a detailled sequence of events, it would
seem as though the increase in the fuel flow could have led to the engine damage.
As soon as the investigations and analyses allow us to validate the sequence of events leading to the engine
damage, TURBOMECA will contact you again to provide you with the appropriate recommendations.
"

[colibri]

France will probably not be much help, might want to talk to the support people at American Eurocopter, they were our source of information for the switch, no STC but I think they had it done on a FAA Form 337.

[Hughes500]

Team

Would like to know from owners operators what one actually costs as I am thinking of replacing one of the 500's with one !
Have heard that FCU's and modules cost a fortune. What is unscheduled maintenance like ?
Thanks in advance

[TangoMikeYankee]

Honest opinion?
You'll be better of with a 350:D

[Dis-Mystery of Lift]

Stay away from it.Unscheduled Maint all the time and a Alert Service Letter every other week.Pain in the arse checks between 100hr Checks.Cant pull the skin off a rice pudding!!!

Buy a Koala!!!:ok:

[rotorboy]

Find a used 350BA, cheaper, faster ,bigger, better looking, easier to maintain.

RB

[glimmerman_alpha]

There is nothing wrong with a 120 if you fly at sea level. Excellent machine. Struggles at high altitude because it is a bit under powered.. Running costs are about $450.

Fly Safe

[Hughes500]

Guys

What do the modules cost to replace, any ideas ?

[Billywizz]

We had to replace two FCU's inside 500 hours at a cost of £18,000 each! Battery checks every 3 months. Nice machine to fly though depends what you use it for.

[MGT727]

The ec120 in my opinion should not even be certified, far better aircraft available for that kind of money with alot more power!
Not cheap either, carefull of overtemp on start as well! Every 120 I have seen with more than 500hrs has already been overtemped on start.

:O :ok:

[rotornut]

We had to replace two FCU's inside 500 hours at a cost of £18,000 each
Do you mean the VEMD?

[Aesir]

Isn´t the VEMD just the actual display? If I remember correctly it stands for something like Vehicule Multi Display or something close to it in French.

So the FCU (Fuel control unit) and the VEMD are two different things but from what I have heard are both probably just as outrageously overprized by EC.

[rotornut]

Aesir,

That makes sense. I'll bet anything on a 120 is $$$.

[Billywizz]

Rotornut

No, I really did mean the fuel control units.

We also had the bottom screen go on the VEMD (Vehicle & Engine Management Display) but that was replaced under warranty.

Battery from EC was £1100 more than from an aviation battery supply company!!

[moosp]

MGB Corrosion

On our EC120, on inspection, the engineers discovered corrosion on the main rotor gearbox surface. It is located in direct line with the front air intake, and started at the junction of the upper and lower sections of the MGB. It covers about three centimetres of the joint as seen from the outside.

EC have split the gearbox and say that it has gone too far to blend out, and are requiring an exchange unit, at 64,000 euro. Ouch.

Anyone had any experience of this gearbox corroding? It seems to be a magnesium type alloy and flakes away in a white crisp dust like an oxide.

Any advice or similar experiences would be welcome.

[Heliport]

The FAA is adopting a new AD for Turbomeca Arrius 2F turboshaft engines. The AD requires removing from service certain serial number FCUs or replacing the constant delta pressure diaphragm in those FCUs.

The AD results from a report of an accident in July 2005 involving a Eurocopter EC120B helicopter. The AD is issued to prevent an uncommanded engine in-flight shutdown on a single-engine helicopter, resulting in a forced autorotation landing or an accident.

Link (http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAD.nsf/0/88952B887F210C988625707E005944F2?OpenDocument)

[mderdem]

Hello,

I am an aeronautical engineer working on a simulation project. I am trying to learn about the systems on the EC Colibri. My question is what kind of stability Augmentation and flight assistance systems are available on the Colibri ? I am looking for a list of capability like altitude hold, landing assistance etc.

I would appreciate any kind of info.

Thanks a lot.

[EAGLE31]

The EC120B has a wonderful stability control unit which has integrated altitude hold, auto hover and auto land. It also provides control for all the systems on the EC120. It is called a pilot. All kidding aside, there is nothing in the electronics that will do anything other than provide information to the pilot. The 120 is an entry level turbine helicopter and does not have the complex, expensive control systems that larger helicopters provide.

[cpt hobbs]

i am looking at both a 206 and the ec120 to buy for a business man to travel around ireland. Please express pros and cons for comparisson and your final choice. $1 mil budget. thanks.

[SMOUFW]

For 1 mil Aus dollars you could get two pretty good second hand Jetrangers-not to sure about the price of a used ec-120- would imagine though a little bit more.

To compare them operationally-if you looked up the word reliable in the dictionary you would find a photo of a jetranger-they just keep going. Ofcousre you'll always find the knockers but over a ten year period we operated up to 4 206's and other than the routine maintenance I can remember a couple of t/r chip lights, 1 eng chip and a couple of gauge failures.And i'm talking about 600-800 hrs per year per machine. The other consideration is support and parts....do your homework there....again I don't know what eurocopter/Bell have in Ireland.

I was fortunate to operate a EC-120 on trial for around 3 months and in that time had great feedback from pilots and passengers. Someone with a lot more time on the ec would give you a better appreciation however I loved flying the machine and the pax loved it. Bigger windows and a lot more comfortable.If your planning to have a full ship expect a lot of negative comments about the back middle seat in the jetranger...it's a F#$%^. Every day people would complain about having to sit there. We called it the TFC,(Thanks for coming) seat. Atleast in the EC everyone gets a great seat and no arguements.

The luggage compartment on the ec is little more generous than the jetranger however as all 206 drivers know it's amazing what you can fit in a jetranger boot.

Thats my 3 cents worth-to answer your question if it's just you and/or your pilot criusing around Ireland with regards to price take the jetranger option-maybe a few ec operators could add some pointers to even the debate.......Have you considered a R44?

SMO

[blade771]

This could start quite a debate!!

Would probably go for 206 myself, however do agree that the 120 has better alround visibility for the pax however have heard some stories of problems with the 120 i.e. c of g - this may have been corrected now.

Otherwise both lovely machines.

[KikoLobo]

i fown both of them, both as a pass and as a pilot, 206 its a work horse. True ec is more confortable for the pass, but 206 its so reliable and its so a noble machine and a joy to fly. Its slower though but its a very safe 'the safest single engine aircraft in the world' and it keeps its record for a long time. Maintainance its not hard and well documented, your mechanic can do a lot more to it than on the EC to fix it on the field.

More technology on the EC, quiter for sure, but the penalty for it its power. Although jet rangers are not a loader heli, it can carry more weight and be more forgiving in altitude and hot wx.

Its just my POV.
I flown both of them to see what i would buy, and got a 206. Ohh, operation cost is also lower. (at least in mx)

[headsethair]

The budget is $1m - US I assume ? That won't get much of a 120......

[rotornut]

Do a search on EC-120. There have been a few threads on their maintenance and reliability problems.

[Thomas coupling]

It's not just about operating costs etc, is it.
We are living in the 21st century now and things such as duty of care/risk assessments etc have to be considered.
I would seriously also look at crashworthiness issues.
The 206 has that woefully inferior tail rotor authority issue hanging over it too.

On a separate note: bear in mind the spares and servicing scene.

A helo sat on the deck waiting 4 days for a replacement part for instance, is just scrap metal:ooh:

[and Tompkins]

A few other things to consider:

Autorotation - ever seen an EC120 auto from about 10-15' AGL? Talk about slamming you into the ground! You'll find the 206 offers much more margin than the EC120 due to the nature of the rotor system. Much more inertia in the 206.

Useful Load - Don't get hung up in EC telling you that the 120 has a greater AUW. Once you load it with the necessary equipment and fuel to fly it away, you'll have more UL in a JetRanger with the same equipment. This is especially easy to see when comparing Bell and EC's HOGE and HIGE charts from their technical specs. You'll find a tight race, but I suspect EC would tell you differently.

Having flown in both, I would not take an EC120 above 110-kts. It seemed like everything was about to shake loose in the cabin.

I'd take the JetRanger. :ok:

[belly tank]

Thomas Coupling wrote:
"The 206 has that woefully inferior tail rotor authority issue hanging over it too."

Thomas...in my limited experience in helicopters to date which includes 1000+ hours in jetrangers ive never had any problem with tail rotor authority..and ive done most hovering ops that require alot of pedal....treat it right and think about what your doing and you should never have any tail rotor authority / lte or whatever they call it tommorow problem :ok:

[Aesir]

The 206 has that woefully inferior tail rotor authority issue hanging over it too

Belly Tank..

That is exactly what I was going to say, you just beat me to it!

This LTE "Problem" on B206 is a non issue.

[IHL]

Belly Tank & Aesir:

I disagree. I know several pilots that have experienced it. It is real and it is out there but it can be managed.

When I fly a Jet Ranger I am always very cognizant of wind direction and the conditions that can lead to LTE.

[belly tank]

IHL,

I didnt say that it its not an issue, maybe my wording was a bit obscure, however as you say with proper management and decision making it is overcome.

and i think this applies to most if not all aspect of flying.

cheers!

[leemind]

headsethair - US$1m ~ £570k

You'll easily get an EC120 for that money. Quick search of the 'net or look in Helimart found several. e.g. 2002 with 1,000 hrs for EUR870k (£558k)

[Thomas coupling]

Belly Tank / Aesir:

Ignorance is bliss....I suggest you get to know your a/c a little more:

NickLappos said:


posted 3rd October 2005 11:03
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

rotorboy,

In an LTE study I did about 7 years ago, based on worldwide accidents of all helos, using four different data bases, this is what it showed:

95% of all LTE accidents involve Bell 206 models.

Virtually 100% of all LTE accidents involve Bell helicopters (one Robbie in UK was reported as LTE, but was probably over pitching).

My conclusion was that the inadequate size of the Bell 206 tail rotor was the principal cause of its LTE woes.
A second finding is that all tail rotor authority events were being called LTE because the marketing campaign conducted by Bell was effective on removing the heat from their design.

LTE really does not exist, it is a label used to blame the pilot when a marginal helicopter loses yaw control within its approved envelope. That does not mean that a 206 can be milked by an experienced pilot to not lose tail authority.

LTE cannot be experienced by any helo built to modern standards (larger tail rotor). It is impossible to get LTE in a Black Hawk, Apache, S76, H-500, EH-101, Lynx, etc because they have adequate tail rotors.

[John Eacott]

TC,

Beg to differ: maybe with the small tail rotor, but the 206 with the later tail rotor is quite manageable, and we operate frequently hot and high.

I'd be making more of an issue of the EC120's low inertia main rotor system, and the R22-like autorotation characteristics :eek: I'd have grave reservations using an EC120 for low level operations that wouldn't cause any concern in a 206, because I'm not sure that I'd get away with a survivable auto. Apparently the factory pilots prefer to run on around 40-50kts in the 120, maybe for a good reason!

[belly tank]

Thomas Coupling wrote,

"Ignorance is bliss....I suggest you get to know your a/c a little more:"

I think i have reasonable knowledge of My aircraft the 206 in this case, ive done most ops that require the use of alot of pedal mainly OGE hover work etc etc hot and as high as you can get here in australia!. and as i said in my limited experience on Jetrangers 1000 + hrs on type to date ive never had a problem or accident, and as i mentioned before its managable if you treat your aircraft with respect it deserves.

so your statement above is totally ignorant about the fact you should give a bit more credit to your peers before you make assumptions on their ability :8

[B Sousa]

IF you have a Million to play with and look around just a bit I think you can get a pretty nice B206L4 and have some spare change for cockpit toys.
Give it some thought.

[Aesir]

NickLappos said:

Thomas coupling..

Ohhohh.. If Nick said it then it MUST be true :rolleyes:


The original question was:

Please express pros and cons for comparisson and your final choice. $1 mil budget. thanks.

In my opinion the perceived LTE "Problem" of the 206 is not an issue in choosing which aircraft to buy! If properly flown it´s not a problem!!

Like was said for $1 mil you can get a nice 206L4 which is certainly a much superior aircraft to the EC-120.

I have a friend who operates EC-120 and from talking to him he seems to have unusual problems with parts availability and cost :{ Don´t get me started there..few months ago he had to replace the flashing beacon at a cost of $9.000.- The whole thing had to be replaced as a unit, not possible to change the bulb!

He fly´s his EC-120 about 350 to 400 hrs a year. I fly my AB206B a 1971 model with.. yes you guessed it, the small diameter tail rotor.. I fly about 150 hrs a year and guess who takes more money to the bank after all costs have been figured in? I do.

Needless to say his EC-120 is for sale.

When comparing the two EC-120 & B206 one should consider the autorotative characteristics as well of both aircraft. Since they are single engine I would much rather be in a B206 following engine failure, both aircraft do have engine failures like any motor vehicles and the outcome of such a failure will be more likely to be succesful in the B-206.

Unfortunately it´s difficult to do a "Study" of succesful outcomes of engine failure landings comparing aircraft since many countries do not require any reports to be made if the landing was succesful with no damage.

Here is my suggestion for the original poster:

"Be Smart, Fly Bell"

[Thomas coupling]

Belly up: I wouldnt brag about a 1000hrs on type if I were you. There are people on here who have flown that on type in only 18 months, that is not a lot of experience:8
And you are not my peer...you can't even spell Chief Pilot in your profile never mind act like one:uhoh:


Aesir et al:

Join the real world eh? You can't keep flying a 40 yr old design forever....one has to move on and invest in technology with all its merits. Safety is the industry mantra now.

Aviation news comments (http://www.aviationtoday.com/cgi/rw/show_mag.cgi?pub=rw&mon=0203&file=0203ec120.htm)

Just another view..................................

Aesir: interesting web site.

[Dynamic Component]

I have a few hours on the EC120 and 206.Each has its own role.For pax work I would choose the 120.For anything else I would choose the 206.I would prefer a 206L4. Just keep in mind that you cant load 4 adults and pilot and use all the baggage space in the 120.

TC- who pis*ed in your porridge? SO what if belly tank can't spell. And they are entitled to their own opinions.(I can't spell either:} )

[belly tank]

Thanks DC!

See TC i do have a peer!..your words were the last straw i have now enrolled in spelling classes, ill let you know how my progress goes:8

As for the thread...you will like this TC i also have limited experience in the 120 and have found it to be a nice aircraft for pax work as DC has stated, nice open cabin etc etc, its horses for courses what are you planning on doing with the machine you choose CPT Hobbs, is it mainly going to be used for the business man alone or will most of your loads be with a full compliment of passengers.

as DC has stated have you looked at a L4!

[Aesir]

Thank you for your view Thomas..

You said:

Join the real world eh? You can't keep flying a 40 yr old design forever....one has to move on and invest in technology with all its merits. Safety is the industry mantra now.

That is exactly why I fly B-206..SAFETY! Get it?

I want to be in something that can land safely if I have engine failure which we all know can happen in all helicopters anytime and if I don´t have two engines then for sure I´m going to be in a helicopter that can autorotate safely.

I know why LTE happens and some other things that could happen to B-206 in flight and I know how to avoid those situations..! An engine failure I have no control over, it could happen when I least expect it.

New helicopter designs do not necessarily mean that they are safer in all aspects. Manufacturers do try to make them more economical to operate than the competition so customers will buy them. And boy did EC get the DOC´s wrong on the EC-120, they can say whatever they will about how economical it is but ask any operator in the field who will give you a straight answer and then find out how much it costs to run. There are loads of 120´s for sale now, I wonder why?

But don´t get me wrong, like someone said if you don´t worry to much about engine reliability and perhaps fly all the time over land and non-hostile terrain then the EC-120 is fine for passenger transport for someone who has the funds to run it. There is lot´s of people who don´t really care if it cost´s $300 or $500 pr/hr to run.

I like the B206 because it cheap to run which means I make more cash and it´s safer to fly in my area of operations.

I´m guessing that the original poster has probably gotten tired of reading the bull that´s been posted but please keep us informed what you end up buying whichever way you decide!

[blade771]

I guess $1m is about £700K, you could of course go for a twin (AS355) wouldn't be brand new of course probably F1 / F2 but you could probably get something reasonable for that kind of money.

[B Sousa]

You can't keep flying a 40 yr old design forever....one has to move on and invest in technology with all its merits

If I was a Playa........I would have bought a 407 when it first came out. Since I have a saying etched in my brain. "Never buy an A model of anything" I waited to see how many of the "Rollers" paid for the ADs that would surely come out, and they did.
Now its a bit better, someone else suffered the problems and its a great purchase......
Same thing flys with the EC-120. Let someone else do the testing and since I see a few more buying the farm recently it is not over yet. Then maybe.
As to purchasing "new" only a proven aircraft and only then if I cannot find a clean machine that someone else has eaten the initial depreciation.

If I had the ability to purchase anyway...........

[BigMike]

Horses for courses I guess. Jetranger if want to do a wide range of work, 120 if you mainly fly pax. 40 year old design vs new one? Who cares. Which one makes the most commercial sense, thats the bottom line. Second-hand L-4 would be much better than either.

TC, I think you will find that the tail-rotor is not an issue in the B III Jet-ranger.
I would consider someone with 1000 hours on type to have a bit of an idea. What do you consider experienced on type? Just remeber its not always total hours on type, but what you did in those hours...

[B Sousa]

tail-rotor is not an issue in the B III Jet-ranger.

Are we talking an LTE issue here?? I have heard this song before. Personal opinion is Pilots are the problem. If any aircraft is prone to doing something out of the ordinary it should be addressed in the intial training and etched in the pilots gray matter. If done correctly problems should not occur OR if Murphy is flying then the pilot will be able to correct things before a disaster occurs based on his awareness in the seat.

Im Still voting for an L-4

[BigMike]

As it was when I first flew a 206 a long while ago. I was warned to be carefull with pre-BIII Jet-rangers. Something to simply be aware of.

[B Sousa]

Something to simply be aware of.

And it appears you have not forgotten, good.. Another good example, if I can drift a bit, was the Huey. Many variations of it but as there are also different UH-60s, the one big difference was that the Huey used two airframes.
UH-1B, C, M etc. had the B204 airframe, wheras the D,H,V etc. had the B205 airframe.
When I transitioned from the H to the M, the first thing the IP did was take me way up in the mountains and do a 360 turn at a 50'OGE hover on a hot day (in a big LZ) Dam thing ran out of pedal. Lesson there was although it was a Huey with an L-13 etc. The tailboom was still smaller and the tail rotor cannot handle things, Hot, Heavy, High........

Back to reality, Im still voting for the L-4.........

[lallosa777]

Could someone tell me what the extra bits at the end of the skids are for on the 120. Don't know whether there are similar on other machines? Thanks!

[on21]

It apparently suffered from Dutch Roll, so this part of the skid is to counteract this tendancy.

http://142.26.194.131/aerodynamics1/Stability/Page5.html

[widgeon]

Sfim/sagem were working on an autopilot for the EC120 , I am not sure if there are any flying with it.

[meadway]

I have been looking for the solution for the extra bits on the skids and hopefully this is the right one! If it isn't Dutch Roll I will let you know!

[TiPwEiGhT]

Does anybody recieve a Vehicle Parametre Overlimit when making large torque changes (remaining within limits)?

TiP:bored:

[Alfa Hotel]

Check with engineers but I have had it happen on occasoins engineers told me it has got something to do with the software of the Vemde.

Another glitch with software is that it on occasions can give MRrpm exceedence (usually during start up - it will show on the over limit page as a nil time occurance) or when you overfly/fly near radio transmitters.

Happy flying :ok:

[mediadriver]

Canberra 2003 Bushfires.

EC120, silver, call sign FB299.

Front on, right turn, 2 pax, close shot.

Had it, lost it. Computer malfunction.

Anyone Help?

Have trawled through a lot of photos on variety of sites including the prune, can't find.

Cheers

[Fanie Jordaan]

:ok: Hi all Colibri operators,
Received an information leaflet and questionaire from a subsidiary of Turbomeca, concerning T45 control during start.
The subject has been thrashed to death on this forum, and it would seem to have made TM take notice. The limited information seems to indicate a T45 rate of increase software solution. By installation of a linear actuator fed by the processed information from the VEMD, the fuel input can be limited to prevent a overtemp.
The leaflet states the operation as follows:
"OPERATION"
"The linear actuator acts on the stop of sheath of the driving flow command. It is controlled by a law programmed in the T45 controller. This is obtained from parameters such as N1,P0 and T45.
The actuator is authorized to operate by the T45 controller as long as N1 is lower than 60%. It is inhibited once this threshold is exeeded.
The CT45 system ensures a starting aid whatever the conditions(cold weather ,altitude)"
"ADVANTAGES"
"The starting procedure remains unchanged but the control of the T45 is no longer necessary.
Furthermore the pilot keeps the control on the system: he can, if necessary,reduce the fuel flow, cut the power or increase the fuel flow."
Sounds good if it works. Will be available as a retrofit. Wonder if you can negotiate with ensurance regarding reduced rate on "Turbosure" insurance

[moosp]

I like it already. Although we in our syndicate are very concious of the possibility of an overtemp on startup, there is always the odd chance of an expensive burn.

I hope to chase this up with the Turbomeca people at Asian Aerospace in SIN at the end of the month.

Thanks for the heads up.

[SawThe Light]

Ouch ! ! !

I just read the blurb that accompanied the brochure and to quote from Item 9 "The selling price of the system should be around 30,000 to 40,000 Euros. Compared to its operational utilities, would you be ready to invest this amount to equip your EC 120"

30 to 40 grand ! !. How much is the similar kit for the C20's? Bet it's way less than this.

Would you spent 40,000?

STL

[moosp]

Yes, that definitely has the sound of a Eurocopter/Turbomeca/EADS cash till in the background. It is not rocket science to add and certificate a software add-on and about 1,000 US$ (cost price) of actuator.

So we shall all go back to manual starts, people will occasionally burn the engine, the EC120 will get a bad reputation, and lose sales.

I think that is a little short sighted of Turbomeca.

[diethelm]

Holly mackeral, you can overhaul inspect a Series II allison that has been hot started for less than that.

[Aesir]

the EC120 will get a bad reputation

We´ll I think it already has a bad reputation :\


On the 206 models there is a system available that I can not for the live of me remember the name of but it is a kind of a mini-Hums with automatic fuel control that costs $10.000 US (Euro 8.000.-)


It works real good, I used to fly a LongRanger with it. The procedure was to open the throttle to flight idle and then monitor the TOT. The engineers would usually all go out and watch when a new pilot who had newer used the system would do his first start. They usually had a good laugh when he´d get a terrified look on his face when the TOT needle would jump straight up to 790°c and then it would pulsate between 780 and 790° which is a good fast start for the 250 engine.


--Buitenzorg, thanks for the tip, yes it was Intellistart (http://www.aviationtoday.com/cgi/rw/show_mag.cgi?pub=rw&mon=0101&file=0101bower.htm) and I can vouch for that it works very well on the LongRanger.--

[Buitenzorg]

Aesir,

I think the system you're referring to is called Intellistart. I remember talking with a colleague who'd tried it and it was great, 17 secs from hitting the switch to idle. However, at the time they'd not yet tried it on a LongRanger with both an old and worn FCU and a weak battery, a more realistic challenge.

[P2bleed]

Hello,

I believe there was a thread on the comparison of the EC120B and Bell206B in regards to training both operationally and engineering.

Anyone point us in the right direction.
Thanks

[Heli_Sticktime]

I fly both and would also be interested to see that thread

[Heliport]

It was a very short thread a long time ago when not many people had much experience of the EC120.

I suggest we start a new discussion here.



Heli_Sticktime

Sounds like you're in a good position to start the ball rolling.





Heliport

[Copterfan]

I would be interested in this too, especially as these two helis are the different ways I was thinking of going after gaining my ppl(h). I Thought the EC120 was an amazing quality product after reading the magazine tests, but then I read a thread on here some months ago that was slating the EC120 battery positioning and switches, and also probs with the VEMD along with other probs.

Made me think that yes the EC120 is modern and pretty (and expensive), but maybe the 'good old' 206 might be the better bet? I would really be interested in the honest professional opinion of somebody that has flown both? Especially as I'd never get this kind of response from the sales people...."EC120 not powerful enough...? I've seen one lift a Chinook!" :eek: You know the kind of thing.

[rotormatic]

08/00

NEWS
From the County of San Bernardino

The Board of Supervisors today authorized the sheriff to purchase two EC-120 patrol helicopters as part of a phased-in replacement of the county's aging fleet of law enforcement aircraft.

The Patrol Helicopter Replacement Program is designed to replenish the Sheriff's Department’s aging fleet of patrol helicopters over a five-year period. The EC-120 was selected after an extensive evaluation by Sheriff’s law enforcement aviation experts based upon the aircraft’s operating capabilities, maximum payload and lower operating cost. The EC-120 also costs approximately $250,000 less that the department’s other style of patrol helicopter, the McDonnell Douglas/Boeing MDH-600N.

The purchase will cost $2.28 million and will be funded from the Sheriff’s Department Special Revenue Fund Budget

01/05

SAN BERNARDINO — The Sheriff's Department is working on a plan to have a more advanced eye in the High Desert sky.

The department wants to replace its aging fleet of seven helicopters with six new models from American Eurocopter which can better handle the county's diverse geography and perform more tasks, according to the San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department.

The sheriff's current primary helicopters, American Eurocopter EC120s, are not able to adequately handle the tasks required of them in San Bernardino County, officials said.

"We've been operating (the EC120s), but we've found them lacking in power," said Lt. Tom Hornsby, of the Sheriff's Aviation Division.

The Sheriff's Department's plan for replacing the fleet calls for purchasing three Eurocopter AS350 B3 helicopters, at a cost of $2.6 million per helicopter, during the 2004-05 fiscal year and another three helicopters during 2005-06, according to county reports.

The Board of Supervisors already approved the purchase of two helicopters with contingencies and with the cost of the third helicopter to be covered by revenue from the sale of the current fleet, according to county reports. However, a recommendation before the board to authorize the purchase at Tuesday's meeting was postponed until Feb. 1.

Hot summer air can steal power from the engines of the EC120s, and they are limited at performing rescues in rough terrain and mountainous areas, Hornsby said. They are also unable to carry extra passengers beyond the helicopter's crew, he said.

In addition to the four EC120s, the Sheriff's Department's Aviation Division also operates a Sikorsky H3, a McDonnell Douglas 500 and a McDonnell Douglas 600N. All seven will be sold to help cover the costs of the purchase, according to county reports.

The AS350s that the Sheriff's Department wants are common in Europe's Alpine areas. They have the extra power needed in mountainous areas and during high temperatures, Hornsby said. They can also carry three to four rescue personnel with their supplies in addition to the on-board crew.

The AS350s are also equipped with fire buckets for an initial attack during fire season and have an external hoist for dropping rescue and fire personnel in inaccessible areas, Hornsby said.

"Those are a couple of missions that we can't even think about doing with the EC120s," Hornsby said.

[Copterfan]

Thanks for that Rotormatic,

It illustrates just what I was asking about. I know that I am a low-hours spode compared to many on this site, but that doesn't mean that I don't care about helis the same as all of you.
There aren't as many types of helis as there are planes, but real information about them is harder to come by. As mentioned before, the mags only get to test helis when distributors give them a few hours, or an affiliated owner gives them a flight, so where's the truth?
The best (and most honest) comment I have read recently was by Dennis Kenyon in Loop, where he is talking about whether to recommend somebody to buy an Enstrom 280 or not. Brilliant and insightful because it was honest and based on professional and personal experience.
So why can't we see that on here; what about a league table, a ratings guide? Similar to the 'Good, the Bad and the Ugly' ratings that you get in some car magazines. Why won't people cough up and say what they feel about helis and types?

Is it because I is a Spode?

[SHortshaft]

Excerpt from Jane’s Defence Weekly dated 24 Jan 06

“Singapore to receive EC 120 helicopters for pilot training

Singapore Technologies Aerospace (ST Aerospace) is due late in 2006 to take delivery of six EC 120 Colibri light utility helicopters, five of which will be used to provide flight training for the Republic of Singapore Air Force (RSAF) under a SGD120 million (USD74.5 million) programme finalised in November 2005.

The public-private-partnership will see the company own and maintain the aircraft, with pilot training performed by the RSAF. Known as the Rotary Wing Course (RWC), the contract covers a period of 20 years.”

The EC 120 replaces a fleet of AS 550 Fennec’s, the military version of the AS 350B2 and is to be equipped with a Chelton EFIS cockpit.

After a very thorough evaluation the EC 120 beat the Bell 206.

[P2bleed]

Thanks for that.

The 206 is very forgiving in regards to mishandling in EOL training. Has anyone experience on both that can comment

[Heli_Sticktime]

From my limited experience in both I can say the following

The EC120 doesn't have as much power as the 206,VEMD on the EC is good. One thing I find a help is the recording of a "gong" if you pull too much power for too long, at least you know when someone has done something bad, whereas in the 206 you wouldn't have a clue. If you're the only person flying the A/C then it's ok, but if you're at an operator that has many pilots of varying levels I would prefer to know if someone has wound the machine.

Aircon as standard in the EC is nice, specially in Africa and it seems to work well, does drip every now and then, the door ejectors are also cool if you're autorotating with an engine failure into water without floats(I know that should never happen but it just did in Cape Town a month ago and a student died):sad:

What I don't like is that the rotors turn the other way, nothing major but as you enter an auto and you instinctivly push in the pedal/which one was it again:\ you sometimes get a surprise when it yaws the wrong way.

EC is also like the Squirrel, comes off one one skid first whereas the 206 comes up straight normally, you also have to give a good bit of right pedal when you're pulling power for the lift off so that you don't cause a problem (something to do with the Fenesrton effect).

Shutdown in the EC is way faster than the 206, that two mins at idle in the 206 is 30 secs in the EC, if you're doing short hops it all adds up.

Seats in the EC also have some kind of loading structure that if you come in hard in an auto they collapse a certain way to protect you, someone with more knowlege can ellaborate.

Auto's in the EC are FAST compared to the 206, the fall out the sky, the 206 seems to glide more

If I had to choose I suppose it would be the EC for me, but that's because the EC I fly only has 200hrs on it and the 206 has 3500hrs. If I really had the choice it would be an AS350.

My 5 cents:ok:

[paco]

Heli Sticktime - could you define "not as much power as the 206"? And did the police helicopter mentioned above have the usual accessories attached to it to make it heavier?

Phil

[rotornut]

The 206 has the "bathtub" - the lower part of the fuselage - to absorb shock in a crash. I know from experience that it works. It once saved me from a broken back or worse...

[rotormatic]

Here is a press release from EC listing the equipment in the 120's, and another example of how things change in a short time...

Date 1/24/2000
San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department Adds EC120s To Fleet

Las Vegas, Nev. - San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department will take possession of the first two EC120s to be used in Law Enforcement in the United States. These aircraft are being featured at this year's HAI convention. Two more are scheduled for delivery in mid-2000.

San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department obtained its first helicopter in 1970. Over the course of the last 30 years, it has increased its fleet to 13 aircraft, including 11 civil and military surplus helicopters, and 2 fixed wing aircraft.

San Bernardino County is the largest county in the continental United States, with more than 20,000 square miles. In fact, it could hold 5 New England states within its boundaries. "We needed an aircraft that is extremely quiet, and can stay airborne for an exceptionally long time. It also had to perform well at high altitudes, as our terrain ranges all the way up to 12,500 feet," said the Department's Commander, Capt. Don Belter. "We found that the EC120 is capable in all conditions, and can stay in the air for up to 4 hours. We were impressed at how well it performed in 110-degree weather."

The department is replacing part of its fleet with the EC120, thanks to the aircraft's superior capabilities. "We checked out several aircraft in the same class, and found that nothing compares with the EC120," said Sheriff Gary Penrod.

All 14 of the pilots have already attended the training for the EC120, and everyone is excited about it. "Another reason we are especially pleased with Eurocopter is because of the professional treatment we received by everyone, from the exemplary sales staff, all the way up to American Eurocopter's President Christian Gras. "

The EC120 is the perfect multi-mission, light single-engine helicopter. Its design and performance characteristics lend itself to be well suited for a wide range of law enforcement functions, such as Patrol Support, Fire-Fighting, EMS, and SAR. These functions are all part of San Bernardino's duties in their Airborne Law Enforcement Air Support mission.

San Bernardino County's custom configuration includes a PA system installation, dual sensor (video/thermal imagery) manufactured by FLIR, as well as an Airborne Data Terminal. The FLIR system can track moving targets, while a moving map system assists the crew in navigating to any street address in Southern California.

COUNTY OF SAN BERNARDINO 2005 FEDERAL LEGISLATIVE PLATFORM
Amended and Updated 02-28-2005

REPLACEMENT OF AIRCRAFT Funding Request: $7,744,689
The EC-120 does not have enough power for safely conducting missions at high altitude. The EC-120 is not capable of being used as a firefighting helicopter.

During the hot summer months (peak fire season) the EC-120 is often unable to land off-site to pick-up fire command personnel for airborne assessments.

The EC-120 is also incapable of rescuing victims who are caught mid-stream in flash flood environments. Yucca Valley and Morongo Basin “monsoons” routinely result in victims being caught in flash floods and public safety personnel are required to engage in extremely dangerous ground based “swift-water” rescue efforts.

[B Sousa]

NTSB Identification: LAX05GA231
14 CFR Public Use
Accident occurred Wednesday, July 13, 2005 in Fair Oaks, CA
Aircraft: Eurocopter France EC120B, registration: N266SD
Injuries: 2 Fatal, 1 Serious.

This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.

On July 13, 2005, about 1910 Pacific daylight time, an Eurocopter EC120B, N266SD, experienced a loss of engine power and collided with terrain near Fair Oaks, California. The Sacramento County Sheriff's Department was operating the public-use helicopter under the provisions of 14 CFR Part 91. The commercial pilot and the student pilot rated observer sustained fatal injuries, and the observer trainee sustained serious injuries. The helicopter sustained substantial damage. The local flight departed Mather, California. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed, and no flight plan had been filed. The approximate global positioning system (GPS) coordinates of the primary wreckage were 38 degrees 38 minutes north latitude and 121 degrees 13 minutes west longitude.

About 1910, the pilot transmitted "Mayday, mayday, mayday, we're going down." Within minutes of the mayday call, several people reported that they had just witnessed a possible helicopter crash. Witnesses reported hearing a "popping" noise and observed flames and smoke emitting from the exhaust of the helicopter just prior to impact. A grass fire consumed the hillside just above the accident site.

The helicopter was reported to be flying over steep, hilly, terrain. It impacted near the bottom of a 60-degree sloped hillside and rolled on its side after coming to rest at the base of the hill.

Post accident examination revealed a total loss of the free turbine blades. The main rotor blades revealed low rotational energy at the time of impact.

[widgeon]

Having been in a past life involved in customizing police helicopters . I can tell you that the people who select the mission equipment often have little real appreciation of the weight they are adding. I must say the salesmen , who should know better do not always advise the customer well.
To compare apples to apples you should see how much useful mass ( above basic weight of minimum equipped aircraft plus pilot and fuel ) each helicopter can lift on a 20 deg day. Even though the 206B3 does not have crash attenuating seats ( that add about 200 Lbs to basic weight ) . That said the 120 has useful load 97 kg greater than 206 with c20B hover OGE at 2000 meters and isa +10 but 18 kg less at 2000 meters ISA +20 according to manufacturers charts ( in the marketing info ). The 206 manual does not list weight of crash attenuating seats , though I think they are fittted to the TH57 .

[chopperdr]

the san bernardino ships had a full load
- sx-16 and associated mount, jbox etc
- flir 7500, mount, dovetail,
- full radios pkg
- loud speakers
- crew kits
- mp-5

in other words, for 120, they were loaded.

[heliduck]

While we are on the subject I would appreciate some info from any operators which have experience based figures on the difference in operating costs betwen the EC120/B206. I'm more interested in the time-life components costs reduced to "per hour" rather than fuel etc. Thanks in advance.

[bell 430]

what would the average runnng cost be for ths type of arcraft per year based on 100 hurs of flyng

[Head Turner]

IMHO you will need to be more specificbefore anyone could give you a clue here. What are you doing with this EC120 = insurance = private or commercial = maintenance plan with whom = pilot experiance = value = fuel costs = hangarage = etc

[moosp]

We as owners and operators of an EC120 have found that the Conklin and Decker figures are a good base. Apply your own area's costs to their framework and you will be within a bulls roar of a good estimate.

If you cannot afford the C & D report, you cannot afford the machine... ;)

[Oom Fanus]

Heard SANParks EC120 recently had a governor failure. Anyone with more info? Was it a once off, or is it going to be something to watch for in the EC120?:confused:

[B Sousa]

Had a major fatal in the U.S. a few months ago with something in that area. Think it was a problem was found to be in the Fuel Control.

NTSB Identification: LAX05GA231
14 CFR Public Use
Accident occurred Wednesday, July 13, 2005 in Fair Oaks, CA
Aircraft: Eurocopter France EC120B, registration: N266SD
Injuries: 2 Fatal, 1 Serious.

This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.

On July 13, 2005, about 1910 Pacific daylight time, an Eurocopter EC120B, N266SD, experienced a loss of engine power and collided with terrain near Fair Oaks, California. The Sacramento County Sheriff's Department was operating the public-use helicopter under the provisions of 14 CFR Part 91. The commercial pilot and the student pilot rated observer sustained fatal injuries, and the observer trainee sustained serious injuries. The helicopter sustained substantial damage. The local flight departed Mather, California. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed, and no flight plan had been filed. The approximate global positioning system (GPS) coordinates of the primary wreckage were 38 degrees 38 minutes north latitude and 121 degrees 13 minutes west longitude.

About 1910, the pilot transmitted "Mayday, mayday, mayday, we're going down." Within minutes of the mayday call, several people reported that they had just witnessed a possible helicopter crash. Witnesses reported hearing a "popping" noise and observed flames and smoke emitting from the exhaust of the helicopter just prior to impact. A grass fire consumed the hillside just above the accident site.

The helicopter was reported to be flying over steep, hilly, terrain. It impacted near the bottom of a 60-degree sloped hillside and rolled on its side after coming to rest at the base of the hill.

Post accident examination revealed a total loss of the free turbine blades. The main rotor blades revealed low rotational energy at the time of impact.

[lamanated]

As we are getting used to this new creature,two pilots mentioned smelling a burning plastic type smell when they get in to undo the battery,so we had a look see twice and saw nothing,so I thought I'd see if it was something anyone else encountered.Thanks

[TiPwEiGhT]

Make sure that the battery terminals are properly screwed on, we had one of the plastic coated nut melt because the pilot hadn't screwed it tight enough.

Just a thought. TiP:ouch:

[lamanated]

Thought I'd add a post on the things I've found after doing a 500 hr inspection on a new machine, that is always hangered,
The tail rotor area sees the most wear.and you are allowed 2 thousands pitting on the leading edge,so operating in sandy conditions will certainly cost you the blade or two in the ships lifetime.
The cap over the assy will wear into the hub body if you don't remove and wipe it regularly.the strap pack will show corrosion also,and most people are giving the pack a shot of LPS 2 on it and working it in, to stop it as well as giving the leading edges of the T/R blades a wipe also if you are near salt water or rain.
The blade retention bolts will show corrision on the head and nut end also in the time. and every drain hole was plugged.
your engine mount will have corroded washers and the spacer will be scrap,and the spherical bearings may be pitted.
the scissors will be not far from being worn as I found the inserts corroded also.
If you haven't read all the tasks ,then do so beforehand as you be scratching your head on what the hell are they trying to tell us to do.

[TiPwEiGhT]

Can anybody possibly tell me (if they know) the power required for different styles of take-off's and landings, ie. running, cushion creep, steep, vertical etc...

Thanks in advance guys

TiP :ok:

[34']

correct me if i'm wrong and a 'little' off topic but related......:rolleyes:


For the 120 you should use max power for as much as possible incase of governer failure, you will not be able to pull more power than it's last recorded setting. Can someone correct me if this in not right

34'

[maxtork]

correct me if i'm wrong and a 'little' off topic but related......:rolleyes:
For the 120 you should use max power for as much as possible incase of governer failure, you will not be able to pull more power than it's last recorded setting. Can someone correct me if this in not right
34'

Basically you are correct. In the case of a governing system failure on the EC120 there is no possibility to increase fuel flow with the manual flow control (twist grip). The twist grip will only reduce fuel flow and not increase it therefor you could say that taking off with as much power as you can would be good as it would allow you more control in the case of a fuel control system failure....HOWEVER....it is a matter of risk management. How much extra wear and tear do you put on the engine by using alot of extra power on every take off to avoid a potential problem if there was a governor failure? I will admit there have been some issues with the FCU on the 120 but I would think this may be a bit overkill if you could look at the statistics of how often this particular type of failure may come about.

At any rate you are basically correct that you can't increase fule flow in an emergency....only reduce it.

Max

[TiPwEiGhT]

Thanks for the thought about the fuel flow issue guys. However, has anyone got some FLI percentage fiqures on the power requirements. For example - "25% is minimum required for a vertical landing etc..." Just curious.

TiP:confused:

[movin' on]

Tkink that should be Mr Evil!

Go back to your 222:ok:

MO

[Flingwing207]

I think what Mr Selfish is saying is that you can't count on 40% power giving you a 500 fpm descent at 70 kt every day. However, there are "ballpark" figures to start from - give me a week (I'm just starting the EC120 transition), I'll be able to post something for you (if someone else doesn't).

[TiPwEiGhT]

Thanks Flingwing.

TiP:ouch:

[Governormalfunction]

I wonder if anyone can throw some light on the suitability of the 120B or 120B 'Voyager' as a general 'pilot and 3 pax' utility helicopter. I have heard stories of the aircraft being gutless and having a C of G problem. I have never flown 1, but I have been asked to look into it's potential as a 'taxi'. I would appreciate honest answers and opinions, which would allow for considered decision making. Comparisions to a suitable alternative would also be appreciated.
Many thanks.
Gov.

[helmet fire]

love it's simplicity, it's reliability, it's quietness, and it is a pleasure to fly. It is only gutless like every other helicopter: load it up to MAUW!! The difference is that this one tells you that you are not quite the gifted high AUW pilot that you had thought you were.

And the taxi passengers will love it. Essential to get the ECU.

[Governormalfunction]

Thanks for the replies thus far.

Mr 'S', the Voyager is produced by a company in France with a load of goodies.

'HF', I accept that the bong will alert you, but surely even at MAUM the machine should still perform and not run completely out of power?
I see that no-one has commented on the 'alleged' forward CofG issues? Do they exist or are they a figment of someone's wild imagination???
Thanks,

Gov.

[helifixer]

Gov,
You will find if you compare the EC-120B with aircraft in the same class you will find that it is the superior a/c. It has more grunt than a jet ranger, can lift more than a jet ranger. You may find that pilot's that tell you it is gutless are pilot's that probably perform exceedences on a regular basis, this mentality costs operaters big bucks in engine replacement parts. The V.E.M.D. in the EC-120b is a marvellous piece of kit. The EC-120B is a very low maintenance helicopter and is also a MODERN slick looking helicopter. Being gutless is a common misconception of the EC-120B, compare it with something in the same class: IE: 5 seater gas turbine. I am not trying to bag out jet rangers but simply using it as a comparison. Maybe this can help!

[Bladecrack]

Evening all,

A client of mine has expressed an interest in the Voyager, would be interested to hear some opinions on range and endurance for a typical corporate example. I have heard first hand from a 120 pilot about the C of G probs, seems you have to be careful with it when near MAUW and turning out of wind in the hover. Any further info from experienced 120 drivers appreciated.

Regards,

BC.

[Matthew Parsons]

I'd say always be mindful of CofG, no matter what the type. Is this rumour of a CofG problem coming from people who don't calculate it for their trip and discover that the limits are there for a reason, or are the published limits inappropriate? I'd guess the former, but don't have enough EC120 time to speak about it in particular.

If I were looking for a helicopter in that class, EC120 would be a contender. I would look at Jetrangers, Bell 407, and EC120 for a start. Consider the value as well as the qualities.

[Dis-Mystery of Lift]

The EC120 is a good Helo if care is taken with the load.It has a huge boot but dont load it to the gunnels!A bit like the EC130 it can have forward C of G problems when heavy and low gas(Pax all forward of the mast).If you are taking duals in out be very careful to align throttle as if this is a fraction out things may get hot very quick.Far superior than the JR.All the best:ok:

[Bravo73]

Mr 'S', the Voyager is produced by a company in France with a load of goodies.


More details on the EC120B 'Voyager' here (http://www.regourd.com/uploads/EC120VOYAGERANGLAIS.pdf). :8

[Efirmovich]

The blurb on the Voyager states 4 x Bose Head Sets ? with all that **** in it, is the machine now Pilot + 3pax ? :confused:

E.

[PANews]

Is this a marketing plot.... or do I mean Ploy?
Never heard of the Voyager before and yet within hours of it being mentioned in this thread... lo... into my in tray pops an advertising E-mail drop by the French people...
'The EC120 is Eurocopter’s most successful entry level helicopter.
Eurocopter is the #1 helicopter manufacturer in the world.
The EC120 Voyager is a High End variant of the EC120.
It boasts a 2 axis auto pilot, glass cockpit & fully integrated avionics suite which considerably diminishes workload.
It includes displayable traffic, terrain & weather information. It is meant for safety & comfort minded pilots who wish to enjoy the benefits of next-gen equipment at an affordable price.
With an added weight of less than 50 kg, a pilot with 3 passengers can enjoy 3 hours (345 nm + reserves) of hands free cruising at 120 kts!
and more.... [I refer you to that earlier link to Regourd].
Coincidence of course..
:hmm:

[Hilico]

I've read all 400 or so posts on this thread and none of them mention what it's like to fly as PuT. (I could only afford the one trip so perhaps it's not representative, but what the heck).

For reasons to do with the mission I was sitting on the left. The VEMD was wonderfully clear and easy to keep Tq at 85 (or more accurately, 'between the 8 and the 9'). However, all the flight instruments were on the right side of the panel and the same size as my watch (and I don't have a pilot's watch) so cruise consisted of making sure the collective didn't drop and occasionally peering across at the altimeter. Full fuel and four up (two light-ish people in the back) we started off getting about 110 which I'm sure was 115 or a little more after an hour and the loss of 100kg of fuel. But I couldn't swear to that simply because the dials were that small.

We did get a brief 'beep' from the VEMD when turning and pulling after TO; P1 admitted he'd started the manouvre a smidgen too early and reckoned the 206 was definitely stronger. I know that's a subject that still causes disagreement.

The a/c (about 400hrs on the Hobbs) had a great 'posh car' feel and excellent visibility.

If I was speccing, it would have LARGE AND CLEAR flight instruments, preferably crystal clear tellies like the engine display. Or of course, I could have sat on the right - but how would P1 have known I was flying it properly then?

[Flyting]

I'm looking for floats for my 120 and need info on any and places to buy... if possible - second hand

[lamanated]

Heads up for operators with the overhead air deflectors..
I noticed the rubber bumper on the deflector started to wear into the screen, no doubt due to the cold, as inside it seems pliable..

[QNH1013.2]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyG9m8xXy0s&mode=related&search=

Sorry if this has been posted before.







Title changed.
Heliport

[Brilliant Stuff]

Quite interesting, but may I be picky and point out this is a EC120?

[QNH1013.2]

Yes you may. I had 130's on the brain after I was put off by the grid girls with Captain Hollywood in the photos thread.

[Brilliant Stuff]

Yupp those grid girls are powerful.

[andTompkins]

Let's see them do hovering autos from 10-ft and slam that -120 into the turf! Just doesn't have the rotor inertia of the Huey! :}

[Red Wine]

Really?....Interesting concept how you can be in Autorotational Flight from Hover Height.

Please explain!!!!

[Capt Hollywood]

I had 130's on the brain after I was put off by the grid girls with Captain Hollywood in the photos thread.

Pity that I have to wait five months before I see them again now that I'm without my 130. :{

[Whirlygig]

Hovering auto - is this where a helicopter performs an autorotation from x,000 ft, engine off landing, lifts, hovers and lands again?

Cheers

Whirls

[Paulsddd]

... and what will be a max range in this conditions?

Thanks
Pauls

[RVDT]

Try here http://www.eurocopter.com/ec120/

The technical data will tell you payload/range. You just have to work out what you expect your EEW/BOW to be.

The 120 is about the same as a 206B3. Both probably perform equally as badly in the hands of the inexperienced. Normally you can't fill the seats and the tanks in either of them.

It does what it says on the label.

[JimEli]

Doubtful an EC-120 would experience LTE.

Warning: The AEC website may produce an optimistic EEW.

[jemax]

Based on ours,

A/c Weight with floats 1148kg
Max Fuel 323kg
MAX WEIGHT 1715 KG
Payload 244kg

[SHortshaft]

"and what will be a max range in this conditions?"
Depends on the height you fly, the temperature you fly at and whether or not you are in a hurry.
For example 10'000 feet @+10 degrees C, range is 468 nm at recommended cruise power and it will take you 4.5 hours whilst at Fast Cruise your range is 460 nm and the flight time is 4.05 hours (both 'tanks dry' figures). It would be further if you go higher but we can't (no oxygen).
NOTE: Pop-outs have no performance penalty in the cruise, only in the climb.
The real interesting calculations on the EC 120 are when you have less than 100 kg of fuel. You will then have payload available that you can't use!

[Paulsddd]

244 kg ?!!! its nothing !!:bored:

its just me and two more friends....

Looks like 130 B4 will be better choice.


Does anybody knows what is useful load for 130 with floats and fuel?

[lamanated]

If you haven't yet, you should spray lps1 on the TR strap pack so it weeps to the center .as they will be corroded otherwise if she sees rain. and your scissor link bushings will be worn out by 800 hrs use..

[lca]

hi all,
Im currently flying a 44, company planning on getting a 120 soon. looking for all info i can get. With full pax (average male wgt) how much fuel would you pack to realisticly get out of confined areas, and vice versa with full fuel how many pax? would also appreciate same info on other A/C. have to say 44 has been very good to me.
cheers folks & keep sharing the knowledge.:ok:

[TiPwEiGhT]

Adding fuel to the EC120 doesn't really make any difference to the CofG position as the tanks are pretty much inline with the main rotor. You will find you problem will be forward CofG limits.

We fly with 5 x 13 stone people on a regular basis and add fuel and cargo to bring the aircraft to MAUM. You can get a little bit more weight in the cabin, but not much. I fly a pretty basic EC120, no addititional equipment installed.

It depends what you are planning to use the machine for, it's great for a private owner blasting around the countryside with a couple of pax, trying to get a good cockpit load and a couple of hours fuel may be tricky. If so, buy an AS350.

Just some thoughts, TiP:)

[lca]

Cheers tip
I've tried to push for the 350 but they prefer the look of the 120!!!
I've heard bad reviews from eurocopter when compared to bell tho. something always rattling and a long wait for someone to come out if grounded. how do you decide on a machine when every pilot have a different opinion???
lca

[TiPwEiGhT]

We haven't had the best service from Eurocopter for AOG spares, however this is a common problem. Althought I haven't flowen it have head good news about the Bell 407, maybe it's a possible contender for you.

Please don't get me wrong, the EC120 is a nice comfortable machine to fly but has its limitations, definately not a work horse like a B206.

[lamanated]

if you haven't got to the 500 hr inspection yet, your filter bypass switch will no doubt be U/S, we failed ours every time and went through a half dozen new ones that were useless when tested also. also spray the engine mount washers especially at the bottom as they will be corroded. and I've had worn spherical bearings at 400 hrs use.

[Buttocknurdler]

I've recently completed a type conversion to EC120 (PPL). I was surprised to see that Eurocopter use latching pushbuttons of a type for which it is almost impossible to tell by glancing at the panel, whether a switch is 'ON' or 'OFF'.
In every other (non-EC) helicopter I've flown, switch statuses are immediately apparent from a simple glance. Does this lack or ergonomic design exist on other EC helicopters?

B

[Hidden Agenda]

Buttocknurdler,

This style of switch precedes Eurocopter. They were fitted to the AS 350 I first flew 28 years ago.

On our EC 120 it is quite easy to determine that the switch is selected on - the green light which illuminates on the switch is a bit of a giveaway.

[wesp]

That's not completely right. If the button doesn't have a light (only the booster pump has) A corresponding light on the CWU will light, apart from the fan and floats if fitted.

[TiPwEiGhT]

LACU pushbuttons can be akward to see if they are depressed or not. However over time you'll get the hang of it, and you can notice them depressed.

FLOATS and F.PUMP have lights on the buttons to indicte the system is on or armed. BATT, GENE, PITOT, HYDR etc will effect a CWP caption. A.COL, POS LTS, V/A SELECT and ELECT. RESET won't.

TiP

[Hidden Agenda]

From the above it would seem that there are a few possible configurations. Ours has lights on the BAT EPU, generator, fuel pump, windscreen wipers, Pitot + others. In fact according to the RFM page 7-3 the only switches without the 'tell-tale' lights are the LIGHT TST, FIRE TST, V/A & ELEC RST and CRANK

Buy a machine with 'all the lights' or have your LACU upgraded (post mod 31.004). Personally I don't think that it is any 'biggy'.

[RotorDompteur]

Up to a certain S/N Eucopter kept the "old" LACU panel where it can be hard to see.

But within the last couple of years they have switched to a new LACU panel where the buttons both have longer physical travel which makes it easier to see - and as Hidden Agenda writes - most of them have lights.

To make it more interesting almost all the buttons have switched places aswell - which makes it quite challenging if you fly one of each... :uhoh:

RD

[TiPwEiGhT]

Yeah sorry about tthat chaps, my post was in relation to pre-mod LACU.

As mentioned the new LACU is better, but when you fly both it gets confussing at times.

[Helibeginner]

Anybody know of the existence of an IFR EC120 anywhere. Just wondering if it had ever been done.:rolleyes:

[widgeon]

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgstc.nsf/MainFrame?OpenFrameSet

NO ifr STC's here . I think the requirement for dual hydraulics and second generator may make it difficult.( expensive )

[WylieCoyote]

Helibeginner,

I wouldn't call them IFR machines but I have flown a couple of machines with basic autopilot and TCAS, I can't remember who does the work but they become something called a 'voyager'. Both machines are/were privately owned. One in the UK and the other was in Ireland. I guess you could call them wannabe IFR!

[lamanated]

Anyone receiving SB 05-009 about the scissor link greasing should note that the instruction failed to mention a shim is to be used when tightening the nut against the bushings..

[Ian Corrigible]

The Voyager STC was created by Regourd Aviation (http://www.regourd.com/principal/home/ec120.php?PHPSESSID=f564e18c35588a0bc7bf45248e6133be), in partnership with Sagem. The set-up includes GPS-coupled 2-axis A/P, 9900 BX TCAD, Sagem PFD & AHRS and a WAAS-capable GNS480.

I/C

[Bitmonx]

Anyone knows if and when Eurocopter will upgrade the EC120? As far as i know, it is quite underpowered.

[SawThe Light]

They have already. They call it a 350B2. All the power you need and they throw in an extra seat as well. What sort of power did you have in mind?
I recall seeing a similar question a year back where the writer wanted an EC 120 with more power, bigger M/R blades and a higher MTOW. Kinda gave you the idea that he actually wanted some other helicopter.

Seriously though, the 120 has 510 SHP with some 430 allowed thru the transmission. It might be better to wish for a higher permissable Tq. You ever tried to top one out and keep within the Tq limits? You'll be way up there before it droops.

I guess that if by some miracle an additional 100 SHP came on line, then there would be a chorus of "When are they going to increase the MTOW?"


STL

[Bitmonx]

As of now the Bell206B3 is outperforming the EC120B at altitude.
By the way, how could the AS350B2 upgrade the EC120B? The AS350B2 was a long time out before the EC120B was even on the drawing board.....
A hundred HP more would be nice.

[HillerBee]

The EC120B has 504 SHP, 376 SHP for take-off and 335 SHP for continues use. The max. torque is limited by the gearbox and yes it would be nice to be able to pull a bit more, but there's always something to wish for..


The 206BIII is outperformed by the EC120 by far on every front. I personally don't think you should compare them, just they are both helicopters.

[Bitmonx]

Let me get this straight, I really don't like the 206, i fact I hate the 206. Why should I not compare the two? The EC120 is the Eurocopter version of Bell's 206B. They both have 1 engine and 5 seats. During the mountain course I took last year, all of the instructors clearly agreed that the EC120 does not perform at altitudel as the 206B does. That said, I don't think the 206B performs strong at altitude. The EC120 does however clearly outperform the 206 in every other aspect. I myself wish we had the EC120 instead of the 206 even with its current power limitation. I only have about 7 hours in the EC120 and I really like it. Some day....:)

[lamanated]

apparently the priority valve is sticking causing flooding of the engine.I also found a plugged start injector recently causing a failed start.

[lamanated]

anyone having problems with a stiff throttle, I know its a strong spring in the microswitch for the light, but am looking to see if anyone has changed one ??

[Capt Hollywood]

We had a problem with the throttle twist grip on our EC130 when it was first delivered. Not sure if it's the same setup as the 120 but the 130 has a sleeve inside the collective tube that is connected to the twist grip, it is a very close fit inside the tube and it rotates along with the twist grip. We found that when they had installed the manual cargo hook release lever on the collective tube, the clamp had 'crushed' the tube ever so slightly at the exact same point where the sleeve was located inside the tube. When I tried to open the throttle I noted that significant force was required to open it, it should normally spring to the full throttle position once you take it off the idle position. They moved the hook release lever down the tube a bit and all was fixed.

CH.

[Paulsddd]

so the question is - is it possible to erase somehow the history of flight from heli computer?

I am asking it because I do think that it is better to buy a little used heli ( 100-400 hrs) - as its baby problems will be allready known and solved - but I am still afraid of that someone have cocked the turbine a lot of times and I will not know it...

please advise

Paul

[mfriskel]

Find someone reputable to accomplish a pre-buy inspection of the helicopter. It needs to be someone who is knowledgeable about the type of machine (EC120) and the engine. it could be a seperate engine inspection and airframe inspection. A borescope inspection would be very important if you are worried about the condition of the engine. I know an owner who is paying over $300,000 USD to repair an engine that had been damaged previous to his purchase. An engine inspection prior to buying the machine would have been very worthwhile.

[John R81]

The pre-inspection will cover the recorded history of the aircraft. Unlike other models, the on-board computer records EVERY over-temp, over-torque, etc. Details of the last (10, I think) and cumulative. Whereas a short and slight over-temp on a Bell 206 might go unmentioned by the pilot (or unnoticed by the instruments) the EC120 does not miss a fraction of a second. Anything serious flagged by the computer has to be looked at by the service organisation and the flag re-set so it ould take collusion of the parties to fake this.

Whilst it is never impossible to fake, change or tamper with a computer-based record it would take both knowledge and fraudulent intent.

I suggest that you have the inspection carried out by the service organisation that will look after the aircraft post purchase - and let them know that before the inspection. There is no guarantee, but one hopes that the thought of "missing" something on the nspection and then trying to tell you that you should pay for the repair is not a pleasant one for them.

[whatsarunway]

John,

you sure,

from memory the VEMD on the 120 records the details of the last 31 flights, including exceedences temp tq rotor and engine speed, but it doesnt hold these after that, it does however record all the faults such as gene probs loss of feed to the vemd cooling fan failures and the like forever, personally i think it should be the other way around.

I spent a lot of time in the 120 and a lot of time waiting for pax and playing with the vemd, unless they updated the software, i flew one of the early ones, then you dont know if the thing has ever been torched.

hope this helps

[John R81]

Not absolutely sure so will check. Between the computer and the service records I would hope that you get all the over-temp & over-torque.

[HillerBee]

It only logs 31 flights. So you won't find anything. However if the helicopter is on an approved maintenance schedule the maintenance organisation downloads the data and you will have a complete history, or if they don't have the kit they record it in the logs. There's no fooling around with EC120'S, maybe it's different of course with maintenance organisations outside JAA land.

So I would look for a machine which is part145 maintained.

[John R81]

Checked mine - what HillerBee said. I have access to full history only through the maintenance log.

[Squirrel]

on the 120, has anyone had a significant stick shake happen during the hydraulic isolation (collective cut-off) check. It was smooth during the check until today.
Blades & trim tabs are fine - none bent etc.

[Efirmovich]

No never ! You allways get a little "jump" as you selcet Hyd Off but after that smooth as hyd on.

I would suggest the Hyd's are masking some problem and would strongly get it checked before flight !

E.

[Buttocknurdler]

I have a question:

As with all helicopters, the EC120 has published limitations on power available. These come under the categories of:

- Max. continuous rating

- Max. transient rating

- Max. takeoff rating

'Max. continuous rating' is just that - you can fly at this power setting for hours.

'Max. transient rating' is defined in the Flight Manual as being available for only 5 sec.

However 'Max. takeoff rating' is for some reason not defined in the Flight Manual (not in mine anyway). So extra power is available for the purpose of taking off, but cannot be used continuously. So just how long does 'taking off' take? Presumably, the VEMD will log any exceedance of 'Max. takeoff' power, so it presumably has an in-built time limit. The question is how long is it?

Most other helis I've flown define 'Max. takeoff rating' in the Flight Manual, as being a 5 min rating. The apparent absence of a definition in the EC120 Flight Manual could lead to an interesting legal situation in the right circumstances...

[TiPwEiGhT]

Been a while since I flew the E120 last, but if I rememeber correctly:

You "take-off rating" is the yellow band on the FLI, this can only be used below Vy. Your transient is when when you exceed the redline, a coloured line will appear under the limit you are exceeding. "Max cont. rating" is your Tq fiqure at the start of the yellow band minus 10%.

I think that is correct, if you asked me a year ago I would have been able to tell you what the book says word for word.

I would get your manual checked to see if it is current if you are in doubt about the information contained within it.

Happy flying, TiP

[JimEli]

>
However 'Max. takeoff rating' is for some reason not defined in the Flight Manual (not in mine anyway). So extra power is available for the purpose of taking off, but cannot be used continuously. So just how long does 'taking off' take? Presumably, the VEMD will log any exceedance of 'Max. takeoff' power, so it presumably has an in-built time limit. The question is how long is it?
<

Cursory glances at the airframe & engine maintenance manuals reveal no time limit for Q and Ng. Maintenance inspection/procedures are required after 5 minutes for T4. VEMD recording parameters are in the manual also. Don’t take my word for it.

[moosp]

Has anyone had recent experience of the turnaround time of a VEMD line module replacement. We had to send ours back to France for exchange and knowing EC it could take a while.

Just trying to get an idea for planning.

Thanks

[lamanated]

I found 2 areas with between the rivets cracking. They are up by the battery hold down clasp area,
in the frame piece (that holds the door seal), by the tailboom junction. there is a fix for under the battery also. we added doublers and stop drilled the cracked areas . also, primer is almost impossible to get unless you are at the factory and can bum some..

[moosp]

lamaneted, we see you have a concern, can you tell us more about this problem? How do you define the battery hold down frame. How big are the cracks, are they an airworthiness problem or more a design problem to fix with a spot weld?

In aviation aluminium cracks do appear in the airframe, but in many cases they are benign and maybe need a drill stop to fix. What is your point?

[moosp]

A new one for you. Can anyone help with a type technical exam question that is along the following lines.

Q) If the servo control system fails, the cyclic control will move,

A) Forward and left
B) Forward and right
C) Aft and left
D) Aft and right

I had not idea and guessed.

When doing the HYD off drill, I do not notice that the cyclic moves in any particular direction, it just jumps in your hand.

Any thoughts?

[Ian Corrigible]

Given the layout of the EC120's servos, I'd bet what's left of my 401K on option D)

I/C

[Flying Bull]

Hi JimEli
"However 'Max. takeoff rating' is for some reason not defined in the Flight Manual (not in mine anyway). So extra power is available for the purpose of taking off, but cannot be used continuously. So just how long does 'taking off' take? Presumably, the VEMD will log any exceedance of 'Max. takeoff' power, so it presumably has an in-built time limit. The question is how long is it?"

Not quite sure, cause I don´t have an EC120 rating.
When flying the bigger birds, you have to watch the speed when pulling beyond the red line - be below it before reaching 40 Knots - as far as I remeber ;-)
Otherwise the recording starts.....

Greetings Flyin Bull
P.S. and try, to fly without needing the extra bit - bloody stuff seems to fail more often, when operated at the limits....
Good old crawling away in the ground cushion Chickenhwak style takeoffs ;-)

[signcutter]

When the hydraulics is shut off the cyclic will move aft and to the right. This is because of blowback and dissymmetry of lift. The hydraulics is no longer there to overcome these forces and the work is put into your hands; manual labor. If anyone has a different explanation I would love to hear it.

[John R81]

Does anyone know how I can find out how many EC120 pilots (CPL, PPL) there are in UK? I tried the CAA but not much help.

[CRAZYBROADSWORD]

well there's me but I am not a real fan of um

[WylieCoyote]

I last flew one two years ago, loved them, a very nice helicopter I always thought.

[John R81]

So at least two. Would opportunities for SFH in the South of England be common then?

[WylieCoyote]

London Helicopter Centre (LHC) at Redhill should be able to help.

There used to be a few private aircraft on the south coast some of which are now up for sale, so you could always buy your own if your feeling flush!

Helicentre Aviation which is Coventry might still have access to a machine that spent some of it's time around the Compton Abbas area but i'm not sure whether it's still available.

[Hilico]

What about Aeromega? Dec 2006 I had a very pleasant trip in G-ZADY.

[EddieHeli]

Are you thinking of buying one and looking for people to rent it?
Where are you thinking of basing it and what rate per hour?
I may be interested.

EddieHeli

[FLY 7]

Very pretty helicopters, but are they viable for PPLs?

And why do so many people not like them? Are they under-powered, is there a LTA problem? Are they costly to operate?

[puntosaurus]

EBG at Redhill has one. Less expensive than the Jetranger I believe.

[DMW2007]

Did my type conversion on the one at EBG Redhill. Nice machine good training and most importantly available for PPL self fly hire (the only one I know of in the UK). Good for a first turbine conversion as it is manual start (no fancy fadec to help out) so you're on a steep learning curve where a mistake can be expensive which tends to focus the mind even more.
Not that much more than an R44 to SFH. Belongs to JOHNR81 so I guess his question about rated EC120 pilots may be to get a few more hours on it per month. I have had a few people say they don't like them but what would you rather turn up in an EC120 or and R44.... no competition. Just my few penny-worth.

[Cullear1]

Could anyone please tell me the relationship if there is one beetween outside air temp and nr on the EC120. ie if oat goes up is nr likely to fall by a couple of rpm?
many thanks

[rmiller4292]

Cuellar1, There is some correlation between OAT and Nr...when it gets colder, we have to adjust it down a little bit...when it gets warm, we adjust it back up...we usually see a 5-7 RRPM difference...sometimes more, sometimes less. It depends on the OAT difference of course....we are in Austin, TX USA so our winter and summer extremes are not so severe....We usually adjust it when it cools down for good, and when it warms back up again in the spring...

Ryan

[Cullear1]

Thanks for that reply, That is what i was seeing happening with a change of about ten-twelve degrees celsius, so my next question is why is this happening? many thanks.

[John R81]

Sorry - been away.

Yes, I have one, looking for ideas for extra hrs. Based at Redhill.

[flyinghorse]

Sent you a PM John.

[John R81]

All PMs replied to

[krypton_john]

Speaking of EC120s and autos, the skids look so far back that it I can't shake the impression that it would want to nose over in a run-on landing.

How *do* they behave in a run-on auto?

[perfrej]

I'd say "fine". I've only done around ten to fifteen knots or so and that was not an issue. As usual you bleed of the speed carefully with the pitch and there is no tendency to roll forward.

[Rotordent]

They auto very relaxed, due to the bigger mass, compared to a R44 ,but at the end you keep your cyclic aft.(not horizontal as with the R44) so that the springs at the end of the skids make the first contact with the ground and then you go horizontal.

[malabo]

Has anybody got a good, short practical Normal Checklist for the EC120?

[ReverseFlight]

As Rotordent said, she runs on (power off auto) very well due to excellent directional stability provided by the large Airbus-like tailfin. The sturdy skids gives a lot of confidence as compared to the skinny tubes of the R44. Even without high-inertia MR blades, rrpm does not decay rapidly and the entire experience is not unlike the B206.

I take it when Rotordent said aft cyclic, it's just a few degrees - that's all you'll need.

[malabo]

ReverseFlight,

You've got to be pulling our chain with your rotor inertia claims. Hovering engine cuts are routinely done from 20 feet with a Jetranger in our recurrent training. I never saw any attempt at more than 4 feet at the EC120 factory course. But I'll let you try the high hover cut first and then you can let us all know how it worked out.

It does a run-on auto pretty good though. The heel-slam reminds me of the 407 - we just keep that 10-15 onto grass instead of trying to get it to stop in light winds.

[lamanated]

We're in the midst of our first 1500 hr, If you have any warranty left, check the rotor brake splines under the rotor, ours was worn to the point the splines are sharp. and the output section of the transmission now needs to be replaced. there is a new style rotor also, so get it installed or you'll be buying one also.
Also we found a crack in the stainless firewall panel above the inlet where the bend is, it follows the bend so its hard to see, also the blue stiffener at the top was broken where it attaches to the vertical blue piece to the right of the particle separator, you'll find smoking rivets under the engine pan framework that the through bolt and spring attaches, its common I hear.

[Shawn Coyle]

malabo:
If you're simulating engine failures in a 20' hover in a Bell 206, you're setting yourself up for a rude surprise in the event of a real engine failure.
Everyone I've known who's had an engine failure (including me) has been surprised by the failure. This takes away the element of preparedness that you have built in when you're 'training' for engine failures.
Without that element of preparedness, where you will (in all probability) lower the collective after the failure before raising it to cushion the touchdown, the only thing you'll be able to do in a real engine failure is raise the collective.
From 20', having only the ability to raise the collective, you will hurt the airframe and probably your backs significantly.
Start from a low hover, and following simulating the engine failure, only raise the collective. Build up in height until you don't like the resulting rate of descent / impact. You'll stop long before 10', let alone 20'.

[wes120b]

Has anyone ever experienced a false overtemp limit reading on a vemd?? VEMD shows overtemp of 1100 degrees F for 11 seconds. Engine sent out, partial disassemble, returned, much money later finally working on putting it back. Pilot on that flight says he did not overtemp on start as VEMD states.....please help