Are you fatigued?

[BEXIL160]

Dear All,

The subject of Fatigue has been brought up in another thread and I'd be interested to know YOUR experiences / perception of the issue.

It's only the first week of July and I am finding that after a complete LATCC cycle I am completely knackered. Three days off and I'm just about recovered, only to go and do it all again. With leave being somewhat restricted this year I wonder how long it will be before I have to ring the ORO hotline to report unfit for duty?

NATS management have intimated that they feel they've already addressed the issue (see the incomplete LMQ reply) but do YOU think it's being taken seriously?

I'm also very interested in how people feel at other units, especially Scottish (domestic and the ocean), Manchester, Heathrow and Gatwick, and indeed, at any UK ATCU, NATS or non NATS.

As I have written elsewhere the rise in sickness rates this summer was entirely predictable. For NATS management, specifically at LATCC, to claim in a letter to the airlines that "we have enough staff to run LATCC and for OCT commitments" is disingenuous to say the least. If I was the CEO of a UK airline I'd be asking "Where are your contigency staff for LATCC when you get sickness?" The TRUTHFUL, but unpalatable, answer is simple. We haven't got any.

I look forward to your replies

Rgds BEX

[zonoma]

Bex, I find that the 3 days aren't enough now, takes the afternoons of yawning and feeling crap before I'm just about ready for another pounding on the mornings. Can't wait for August..........

[Big Nose1]

Completely agree, even worse if after your full cycle you have 1 day off and than trot down to NERC for 3 days training. NATS management dont even accept it is an issue let alone try to address it. After all they know exactly what it is like to be operational in todays environment........NOT. Our managers seem to be concerned only by the size of their bonus, as a result of increasing TSF, reducing staff, reducing costs etc etc...funny how there is so much money available for the LATCC Charter, along with its actors, glossy brochures, focus groups, and pledge cards. As the operational staff work harder, longer, and under intolerable stress our managers become even more detached from their prime revenue generators.

[BEXIL160]

Thanks to both, exactly what I thought.... There must be others...

Do people agree that the rise in sickness levels is, as I believe, entirely predictable? Please, disagree with me if you feel I'm wrong, that's what discussion forums are all about.

Rgds BEX

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

An interesting subject, and one reason why I have asked to go on to part time working later this year. A recent room comment started as a joke went on to more serious discussion - should the over-50s not have to do night duties? I.e. should they be rostered for days instead? I'm 56 and the few nights which I do (I can usually get spinners) completely knacker me for nearly a week.... and it gets seriously worse as the years ago by. I'm sure the young people will throw out the idea but they might learn, in time, that it has some merit.

As for working on days off - that's for the birds. You only have to say "No".

[Spiney Norman]

There's no doubt that we're all suffering more from fatigue at the end of a cycle. Personally I find the increased number of early start duties completely knackering and they really set you off badly to the cycle. Now it seems that, at my unit, there may be more on the way. I'm not over 50 but getting that way and nights don't particularly bother me but everybody feels the fatigue individually. I find the question of the effect of starting earlier and earlier very interesting as getting up at, say 0445 for a morning which is going to be at high pressure all the way through didn't seem to be an issue all those years ago when the fatigue studies were being carried out for CRATCOH, as it was then. Anyone remember those personal studies? A new one now would provide some interesting data!

[U R NumberOne]

This is interesting.

For those that feel knackered after a cycle do you feel a four on, two off system would be easier. I know it would be difficult to adopt at a 24 hour unit, but although you don't get as many days off, they do come round sooner.

The reason I ask is that after years of four on, two off our non-24 hour unit is attempting to bring in a five watch six on-four off roster - the theory being giving the staff four days off makes it easier to get away from here!

My concern is this - only one airport ATCO is required for a night presence duty and because of this the rest of the watch will be working a combination of two mornings, two afternoons and two day shifts - in my opinion far more fatiguing than the current system. Never having worked a five watch method, I have nothing to compare it to, but on the face of it I reckon we'll be totally drained before the end of the cycle.

[This message has been edited by U R NumberOne (edited 07 July 2001).]

[cossack]

I remember those diaries we had to keep about 5 years ago. Doing them again now would be interesting.

I think its a case of horses for courses. I absolutely hate nights. They knock me for six every time. I do, however, cope much better with my preferred cycle of MMAA-MM---
Its a lot of mornings, with usually one starting at 6 or 6.30. The traffic is much heavier on mornings than nights, you only get 3 days off together as opposed to sleep and 3, but the after-effects of a busy cycle are much more quickly overcome.

I worked a 4 and 2 roster for a while and that was just the pits. It was pre SRATCOH and was either AAMM--or DDNNS-
It was absolutely dreadful. Now you'd have to work MMAA-- which reduces your time off considerably. I'm no SRATCOH expert but I think that a 4 and 2 with nights probably doesn't comply. Individual rosters (a la NavCanada's Shift (fuzzy) Logic, now there's a different kettle of fish!

[ 07 July 2001: Message edited by: cossack ]

[Cuddles]

4 on 2 off works OK, but only if you're on an AAMM or ADDM type rotation, for the lie in on the first day, or the couple of hours asleep on the sofa before the missus gets home on the last. At the moment I'm having trouble sleeping, to compound matters, and am beginning to feel fatigued at work, particularly the long day shifts. I know that I probably ought not to be there, but on the occasions that I've stayed away, I've felt fine at home and therefore felt like a complete fraud. 6 on 4 off would be OK, I suppose, as at least you've got a whole day to feel refreshed before you dive in again. I worked 36 hour shifts in one of my previous jobs, with only a nights sleep between shifts, so I know how debilitating nightshifts are. They're definitely a young mans game. I'm not H24 at the moment, but not looking forward to It am I.
Proximity endorsement might do it, but it's a bit risky.
I take it I should be staying home more and feeling fraudulent?

[ 07 July 2001: Message edited by: Cuddles ]

[mysteryman]

I completely agree with all the statments above
As an Instructor at CATC we know the problems you have and your right the management dont give a ****
we are going into split shifts in Oct
0645 to 1430 and 1330 to 2115
just think of
A how this will effect the students learning
and
B How we poor old buggers are going to get up at christ knows what in the morning and stagger in
also as ever the management have pulled a fast one and are messing with the antisocial pay, they are only going to give us a percentage of LATCC
ok so we dont do nights (yet) and we all have in the past
but do they really think that this is going to help !???
and be the solution to all their problems
and now i hear that they have opened the SATS to ATSA's to try to get a percentage of cadets that know something before we get them , (thank god that a few (and we all know them) aren't going for it)
In summary
NATS management couldn't give a rats arse
lets all phone in fatigued and watch the fun ( Big joke )
MM :(

[BEXIL160]

Thanks to all who replied, nobody has so far disagreed with me I note.

It would seem that SRATCOH needs looking at again, and as has been stated above, perhaps we need to do the sleep / fatigue diary thing again. (Are you listening ATSSD?)

Nobody should "feel a fraud" when reporting unfit for duty due to fatigue. It's a professional and legal requirement to do so. How would you feel if you were involved in an incident in which you knew your fatigue played a part. How much support would you get from management? It isn't really serving the airlines best interests either, as our first priority has to be the provision of a SAFE service. Orderly is next, expeditious LAST.

Well thats the logical arguement anyway and I've convieniently ignored all the HF which actually go into the decision to report in sick. Factors that NATS management has relied upon in the past to keep the sickness rate down.

A phrase comes to mind "Crisis, what crisis?"

Rgds BEX

[Spiney Norman]

Hi Cuddles..
Re your post..Been there-done that..Fatigue is not always obvious but it can creep up on you and the big clue is do you think your concentration is affected? If so your probably suffering from fatigue that has been building for some time. The cure isn't easy. Take some time off if you can. I think you're being very honest and it's a damn site better sorting it than keeping going believing you're a hero cos if you have a problem you'll get no help from management, they'll just say you shouldn't have come in! My belief is that there is more to this problem than just roster formats, it's down to traffic growth, endless changes to procedures that have to be assimilated etc etc. Winter used to be a recharge period but that's long gone! Look after yourself and you're looking after the paying public.

[Cuddles]

Spiney + rest

Looking forward to a few cycles leave in the near future. Maybe I'll feel different after that. This AM when the alarm went off at 0530 interrupted the rare (for me anyway) sort of sleep which makes you think "Sod it, I'll just roll on over"

I'll spend the w/e just resting (She calls it lazy) and see how I feel for my next cycle.
Take it from me, if the old lids begin feeling heavy again, I'll let the WMs sort it out. That's what they're there for after all.

Cheers guys

[PATCC forever]

For those people who might think that 6 on 4 off sounds like heaven, let me explain. Only those working spin duties instead of nights work 6 on 4 off (MMAAAA---- or MMAA-MM--- etc.) The basic cycle including nights, is actually 7 on 3 off (MMAANNE---}. We work the seventh day of the cycle (E) from midnight to 7am.

[gul dukat]

I find myself more and more exhausted after a cycle .With sickness and all the ancillary stuff that this job now entails I wonder how long it may be before some poor sod takes his /her eye off the ball and something REALLY nasty happens ?.
This job is simply NOT fun anymore!

[Spiney Norman]

gul dukat.
Couldn't agree more but the nasties are happening to people regularly. I realise you're thinking of 'The Big one' but everybody who has an incident is pretty deeply affected by it and they're than left with a lot of questions about themselves that only they can answer. Another of the etceteras from my previous post is morale and you hit the nail on the head when you say the job is not fun any more. Look at all the posts from LATCC! And they're not the only ones by any means. People I work with who used to love the job just want to go home or retire. It's a sad business and this all leads to enhanced fatigue..just being plain fed up. It's not an insoluble problem but Management just don't seem to get it, be it NATS or whoever! WE are their best resource it's no good paying lip service to pointless programmes like 'Investors in people' etc. The evidence is out there if they take the time to look, I won't be holding my breath!

[Numpo-Nigit]

If, indeed, the unthinkable does actually occur, and fatigue is cited/identified as a contributory factor, then it will come as little comfort to those individuals directly involved to find the Cheese-Hams, etc, in the dock beside them. Why will they be there? The new offence of Corporate Manslaughter would hold responsible those senior managers who wilfully caused or allowed the situation to develop to a point where the accident became inevitable. All the messing with "banked" days off, rejected leave requests, ORO aggravation, enforced long-term long-distance commuting, staff shortages, etc, etc - it would appear that NATS management have long-since provided more than enough evidence. Still, let's still hope and pray, for the sake of those "at the sharp end" that the situation never arises.

[Judge Mental]

Numpo,
Under increasing pressure and a 6 on 3 off shift, I think the ORO at LATCC and Swanwick do an amazing job. Management have given them so many difficult tasks to do (sickness, leave, rostering) in a short period of time, I'm amazed they can cope. They are nice people and on the occasions that I have to deal with them, they have bent over backwards to help me.
Don't make them the scapegoats!

[Applycarbheat]

Ignore it......don't take the bait.

[Judge Mental]

Yes you stick with that carbheat. It's much easier to blame someone else

JM :rolleyes:

[BEXIL160]

JudgeMental...

You are right. The ORO's at LATCC and Swanwick aren't responsible for the impossible task they've been set.

NATS Management are.

I have every sympathy for the people in the OROs. A thankless task, from both the operational and the management side.

If a member of the ORO came out and admitted publically, "Yes, we have a SERIOUS staffing problem and the ONLY people who can help are the Operational staff", they might just get a bit more of a hearing.

The sad fact is that NATS management continues to insist, despite evidence to the contrary, that there is no staff shortage. Their credibility with what's left of their workforce therefore remains ZERO.

Rgds BEX

[Numpo-Nigit]

Judge Mental

Thanks for your thoughts on the ORO. I am sure that they do feel under increasing pressure. However, when they "get it wrong", nobody dies. They just blame the staff or the watch management. Of course the ORO are "nice people". That is not in question. They may also do "an amazing job", although I would use the word "frustrating" rather than "amazing". Certainly, every time I have requested their assistance with a rostering problem, they have been extremely helpful and friendly before concluding that they can do nothing to help me. Whilst they may get the blame for some things that are beyond their control, I find it worrying that they seem unable to accept the responsibility when they are caught "bang to rights" - an occasional "sorry" would be a step in the right direction. Still, the "head in the sand" approach seems to work for senior NATS management, so who can blame the ORO for trying to emulate them?

[Judge Mental]

Numpo

And your "amazing" solution to 2001 would be ...

JM

[BEXIL160]

JudgeMental....

Numpo will reply in time, but while we're waiting I have a question for you.

You seem to be implying that everything in the garden is Rosy and that the ORO and NATS management as a whole is doing a fine job, despite those difficult ATC people.

Would YOU change anything that is going on at the moment or do you feel that this is the best that can be achieved?

Rgds BEX