SFVR. HEATHROW. C152.

[FLY BY NIGHT]

I'll be making a trip from Gloucester to Biggin at the end of the week. I'd like to make the trip through the Heathrow zone for reasons of speed and experience.
I am a flying instructor and will have a student with me. From what I understand, we will be let through at the discretion of ATC. So. Do I plan the trip through, the trip around or as I guess the answer is going to be, both.
The prefered routing would be Denham-Fairoak's between the VOR's.
What are my chances? Any calls I could make before departing?
Thanks for your help. David

[ATCO Two]

Hi David,

As a Heathrow SVFR Controller, I'm very surprised that as a flying instructor you are comtemplating a routeing from EGLD to EGTF direct. If you look at a map you will see that such a routeing takes you about four miles West of EGLL; what do you want us to do? Stop all departures on Westerlies or all arrivals on Easterlies? And which two VORs do you mean?
A routeing through the London CTR should not be a problem subject to workload and our requirement to provide standard separation in Class A airspace. If you wish you could phone beforehand to pre-note your flight, but it isn't really necessary. From EGBJ you will be offered either WOD - OCK (routeing South of Ascot Racecourse) and avoiding the EGTF ATZ, or from the North West (High Wycombe area) Burnham (NDB) - Ascot Racecourse - West of Fairoaks - OCK. Contact frequency 119.9. (You may be transferred to Thames on 132.7). A serviceable transponder is appreciated. I may speak to you on the day, but have another look at that map in the meantime. If you are temporarily unsure of your position at any time in the vicinity of the LCTR then please call 119.9 immediately; we are there to help. Don't forget the Farnborough Air Show. Farnborough ATC are going to be very busy and there will be lots of heavy metal flying about at high speed in their vicinity. Check those NOTAMs carefully.

[NudgingSteel]

I can't add much to ATCO Two's post since he's the man (or the woman, I don't know) who works there and knows the local area. I'd just point out that the rules require us to actively separate SVFR and IFR traffic. In practise we are not allowed to vector SVFR, or give them definite levels to fly at, since they might go IMC etc etc. We can therefore only use vertical separation as a practical method, which is extremely inconvenient when IFR traffic has to descend below, say, 3000' for the approach. In practise this usually means the SVFR traffic remains geographically separated, i.e. is told to remain miles away for absolutely ages.

Of course we try to help and expedite all our traffic, but SVFR seems to me to be a hassle with none of the inherent advantages of either IFR (complete control over 'em) or VFR (no separation required).
I hope this is of a little interest; sorry I can't be more specific, but best of luck with your flight anyway. Gloucestershire is lovely when the weather's great!!

[Bright-Ling]

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE check the NOTAM's for the Farnborough Airshow TRA VERY carefully.

There are differing vertical extents and times for each area.

You can try 125.25 (LARS) but it is likely to be very busy. There will be a lot of fast moving and nig stuff around. You could always go via the North, around by Rochester.

Come back after October.....should be quieter around the area by then!

[Flybywyre]

NudginSteel
"extremley inconvenient" "hassle"...come on!

SVFR will normally be given "not above X feet"
in this case it is usually 1000 feet.

What's the problem?

[FLY BY NIGHT]

Well I'm glad I spoke to you guys. I appologise for my initial ignorance, but with the replies posted and E-mailed, I had a very pleasant trip.
As a 'flying instructor' I still have a lot to learn, and in this case its better to open your mouth and appear stupid than to keep quiet and prove that your stupid on the day.
Thanks again.

[Bright-Ling]

FBN......if only more were like you!

Despite the banter, never stop asking questions.

[FLY BY NIGHT]

Thanks BRIGHT. Your earlier comments were noted. The return trip was actually from Rochester and over the top via Stapleford. The cloud base was low so went for IFR. City and Luton were very helpful. If we do our bit, I know you guys do yours. Thanks to everyone.

[NudgingSteel]

Flybywyre,

As I mentioned I'm not an expert regarding the LTMA. However, in my neck of the woods, clearance not above 1000' isn't much use with terrain over twice that height. And to do it by the book, SVFR in the zone effectively closes the final approach descent area to IFR traffic. A ten minute hold for airline traffic whilst awaiting a PA28 landing - that to me is a hassle.

[Flybywyre]

NudgingSteel...............

I agree, what you have mentioned above is hassle.
The LTMA procedure is pretty straight forward and the people at Thames Radar on 119.9 are always very helpful.

Regards
FBW

[NudgingSteel]

Flybywyre...
Mind you, we don't have Class A zones up here, so the only SVFR is when the weather's cr*p, at which point hills & small planes don't mix, so that's another thing to worry about.....

Incidentally I flew into LL a little while back and was amazed at the amount of traffic round the LTMA, admittedly lots of it holding for weather, but also LC in/outbounds. How do you lot ever get time to drink the regulation amount of coffee?