No Transponder?

[topcat450]

A lot of PFA aircraft I've been look at recently don't have the same level of avionics as the C152s a lot of us learnt to fly on, for example no VOR or ADF, however as a secondary backup to the mk1 eyeball and map alot seem to have a hand-held GPS in there to aid nav - which is fine.

However very few have transponders and so I was just curious if that precluded you from obtaining certain services from ATC? For example when I trained nr Coventry I would ask for a FIS and was always given a code to squawk. If I didn't have a xponder would I still have been able to get a FIS? What about class D zone transits, would they generally be possible or do the controllers really require you to be able to squawk?

[TheOddOne]

Topcat,

I thought the whole point of that sort of a/c was to stay out of controlled airspace and have FUN! A single VHF comm is quite sufficient for operating into/out of the sort of airfields that you'd want to visit. GPS, as you say, for backup of your map, watch and compass, not the other way round.

We used to have fun with the Upper Heyford Mandatory Radio Area (UHMRA) with non-transponder a'c where the only significant metal was the engine

'Golf - XX you're not painting'
'No, that's 'cos we're made of wood!!'

We concluded that the Russians would invade on August Bank Holiday Monday (everyone on leave) in Jodels!

Sorry, haven't really answered your question, but I did hear the Luton controller the other day give a zone transit to a non-transponder a/c so it can happen...

Cheers,
The Odd One

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

A few years back (not many) I flew a Yak52 into the Manchester Zone (to photograph a site about 2 miles south of the airport) on a VFR clearance without a transponder. It was at a fairly quiet time in Manch's traffic, and I expect all that Russian metal paints a substantial primary trace. :O

SSD

[stiknruda]

TC,

Over the past 9 years I have owned 3 different PFA aircraft. None of them have had transponders and there really isn't anywhere that I may want to go, that not having a transponder precludes me from.


You sometimes have to be a little imaginative with routings to avoid certain parts of controlled airspace but to me that generally adds to the enjoyment!

Funny old thing - the aeroplane will fly just as well with no ADF, VOR or Parrot!

Stik

[Whiskey Kilo Wanderer]

Oostend zone are quite keen on transponders, but you can get through there if you call them before and say you are non-transponder equipped.

Other techniques are flying through with a group of aircraft, as long as one of them has a transponder it's ok. This is popular when touring with a group of PFA Permit aircraft.

Safe Flying.
Richard W.

[Mike Cross]

No problems with no transponder.

You ask for the clearance. They invariably clear you first and then ask you to squawk. You reply "negative transponder":} .

A number of times I have come across zones where they have primary radar switched off so they can't see me. I might have to do a bit more position reporting but it's never been a problem.

I would quite like to have a transponder but the current situation does not encourage the purchase of Mode C knowing it will have a short life or Mode S knowing the rules might change and the price come down before it is mandatory.

And as a PFA type is restricted to daytime VFR it's by no means an important piece of kit.

Come to think of it most of the GA fleet restricts itself voluntarily to daytime VFR does it not?;)

[FlyingForFun]

I spent a while flying a PA18 with no transponder. I was never denied a clearance anywhere in that time.

There was only one thing which caused me problems, and it was invariably Farnborough Radar who were responsible. Farnborough, for those who don't know, are a fantastic LARS station, who very often radar-identify you even just on a FIS, and frequently provide traffic information even when it's not required. I soon discovered, though, that if I asked for a FIS without a transponder, they would still try to keep tabs on me just as if I was squawking. Which meant they were asking me for frequent position reports - often at places I'd never heard of, which required some heads-in time to locate the place on my chart. I soon learnt not to bother with FIS, but there are times when it's not possible to avoid it, such as when you need a MATZ penetration or a DAAIS.

FFF
------------

[QNH 1013]

I fly a number of non-transponder equiped aircraft and regularly get clearances through the East Midlands CTA without any difficulties. Sometimes they ask for a 30 degree turn to get positive radar identification, but usually they accept my position report which corresponds with their primary return.

Like Mike Cross, I too would like to buy a transponder but had to postpone my purchase when the mode S fiasco started. Yet another example of legislation reducing rather than enhancing safety.

I believe that using correct and accurate RT makes a big difference, and I cringe when I hear some of the requests made to Radar Controllers.

[Evil J]

Don't think any other atco's have chipped in on this yet so I'll chuck in my two penneth.

topcat450- Coventry don't have secondary radar so you could tell em you were squawking anything you want they wouldn't know any better!! They issue a conspicuity squawk (at the minute its 0250 for FIS traffic) which just shows us people who do have seconday that that aircraft is talking to Cov should we need to effect co-ordination. they cannot identiry on the basis of this squawk nor can they verify mode C readouts.

QNH1013-very nice of you to say such nice things about us. We do try our best to accomodate non transponder aircraft and given the time we can identify an aircraft by several different means not using SSR.
For information (and without checking the books so any other ATCO's please don't pick holes in minor mistales!!)
-over a nominated VRP provided you are flying below 3000ft and with visual reference to the surface providing the VRP is marked on the radar map (all the East Mids one are) so if you are at 2000 ft over head Trowell, and we see a blip there, bosh identified.

The other commonly used one is, as QNH1013 says the turn method. We will have a fair idea of of which blip you are from you position report and the DF, we can check this by giving you a turn of at least 30 degrees to check the blip we think you are complies.

The other thing we can do is not identify you at all and just give you what we call a procedural clearance-that is one where we are not really using the radar. An example of this might be wanting to transit the East Mids eastern stub (bast 1500ft) at 2000ft-no inbounds for 27, no problem clear you stright through and maybe get you to report eat abeam so we get an idea of how your progressing.

I've gone on abit more than I intended, and there are some other means of identifiying without transponders (but they generally involve VOR/DME etc which I think you would all agree would probably be fitted after a transponder!!- although my hand held Comm does have a VOR function......)

Upshot is, certainly at East Mids, don't let not having a transponder put you off calling us, especially if your going underneath our airspace. And if we can we will give you transit. I don't think I have ever refused a transit because an ac has no transponder.

And finally, the sircraft I fly regularly doesn't have one!!

[Talkdownman]

No transponder? No problem!
Not even required in the London CTR. Only problem there is slightly increased ATCO workload created by need to inform other agencies of the ident (eg Tower ) , plus 'goody-goody' phone calls from other agencies worried that it might be an intruder. Fair enough.

FIS without a transponder? Well, we all know by now, don't we ;) , that FIS is a non-radar service anyway, so no problem.

If in doubt about any particular airspace look in the UK AIP to establish carriage of SSR requirements.

Downside is no conspicuity and slightly less protection because you would be blind to TCAS and STCA so be vigilant with the look-out, not that you wouldn't be of course! And don't get lost or in trouble because you will be harder to find. And if one is naughty one is harder to track and trace....... :eek:

Mr Cross says: "A number of times I have come across zones where they have primary radar switched off".......Where's this happening then ? Most radars in the UK these days are 'Combined Plot Extracted' or primary with SSR overlay. Unusual to have Secondary only displayed if the Primary is servicable because separation standards have to be increased with SSR only.

TDM

[squibbler]

Mr Cross says: "A number of times I have come across zones where they have primary radar switched off".......Where's this happening then ?

errrrrr.........when it's off for maintainance perhaps?? ;)

[Mike Cross]

Boscombe and Lyneham last summer IIRC.

Reasoning was it was too hot and the aircon couldn't cope. (Primary requires a lot more power than SSR and therefore heats up the equipment room a lot more)

[Talkdownman]

Now, oh dear, oh dear, why didn't I think of that........... ;)

Hmm. Perhaps.

But no primary back-up?

Anyway I typed 'where', not 'when'......... ;) ;) ;) ;)

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I soon learnt not to bother with FIS, but there are times when it's not possible to avoid it, such as when you need a ... DAAIS. Is that right?? I've called someone up and asked for a DAAIS without (at the time) asking for FIS - was I wrong??

[squibbler]

Talkdownman

errrrrr.........when it's off for maintainance perhaps??

I shall re-phrase:

wherever it's off for maintainance perhaps?? :}

Primary back up? Not here anyway - no primary = SSR only = 10 miles horizontal separation.

Mike Cross

You ask for the clearance. They invariably clear you first and then ask you to squawk. You reply "negative transponder"

Not me mate!! Squawk first then clearance (which may be subject to a servicable transponder :p )!

[Whirlybird]

I seem to remember that certain classes of controlled airspace on the continent...maybe it was in Germany...do require a transponder. Someone who flies over there more often than I do may well remember the details. However, I can't see not being able to fly through them being a major aviation-preventing disadvantage.

[IO540]

Unless I am missing something, PFA types can't do IFR and therefore there is no point in buying a Mode S transponder until they become mandatory; the current date is 2008 but could change.

What I would do if I had a plane of any sort is to buy a used Mode C - there will be a fair few of them about after 5/2005. That way I can be seen on TCAS and radar, which has to be a big plus for both myself and everybody else.

The avionics dealers currently installing Mode S units are stocking up the used Mode C ones, hoping to flog them to dealers in the USA.

[LowNSlow]

I operate out of a strip under the approach to Luton's 26. Very few of the ancient aeroplanes there have a transponder. We have an agreed routine with Luton so there is no problem until the beaurocrats in Brussels get wind of it!

I've travelled to other airfields which ask if I'm transponder equipped and none of them seem to be phased by the statement "negative transponder".

[david viewing]

Dublin is place where you need one, and where there are limited alternate routes due to the mountains and restricted airspace to the South and the airport to the North.

I found this out one day in a borrowed 152 from which the owner had removed the xpndr for some tlc. Dublin let me in anyway but I wouldn't recommend being half way across the sea before you get clearance!

Presumably special permission could be obtained in advance by phone, but I wonder if they would allow a direct routeing.

[TheKentishFledgling]

What's a transponder?!

tKF

[Talkdownman]

What's a Kentish Fledgling? :confused:

[TheKentishFledgling]

A Fledgling from Kent.

tKF