An Australian Dream Shattered

[str]

AN AUSTRALIAN DREAM SHATTERED

As crew would be aware we are getting very good media coverage of our continuing dispute with Qantas.

We have become aware that the ABC program “7.30 Report” will do a feature story on Thursday 21 October on our issues.

If you are at home you may wish to watch this program.

ALSO,

FAAA has just released information that our Thai crew are being given 2 days training (5 weeks for Oz crew) in how to be a CSM, so they can cover during possible strike action.

How many Cpts, FO's would be willing to go with a CSM who has received only 2 days training?

[MOR]

In what way is it an accident waiting to happen...???

I suppose getting the wrong crew meal could be termed an "accident"... still... ;)

[Left2primary]

MOR,

a door fired off in panic and confusion due to inexperience is an accident.

The wrong crew meal being delivered is just, unfortunate.

L2P
:ok:

[esreverlluf]

STR - You may even find that a CSM is NOT actually required for dispatch.

It is not that uncommon for an aeroplane to depart sans CSM due to illness or just plain insufficient CSMs available with a CSS or even just plain the most senior FA driving the ship (or at least that part of it behind the flight deck door).

So 2 days training could even be considered a luxury!

[Kaptin M]

Probably to "appease" CASA, and as a result of these comments from another post.

QANTAS faces further checks of its flight attendant training after allegations in an internal email that controversial fixed-term flight attendants are being bulldozed through emergency procedures training.


".....if there is a strike we were told that we would not be flying with professional flight attendants? We “strike-breakers” would fly together and how dangerous does that sound. We were told that we could be working in all areas – first class, business and economy. Personally if I were a passenger who paid for a first class ticket I would expect first class service, not a person who has minimal training of only eleven days."

A name change in the offing?
QANTHAIS

"Let NOTHING, and NO-ONE, stand in the way of Geoff's BONUS!"

[Kanga767]

I would like to comment on the Title of the Thread, nothing more. It seems to have evolved out of another thread that refers to an individual's letter of application to a particular union.

There are no "Shattered Dreams" in Aviation. Those who are determined enough will reflect on such situations at a later time as "Setbacks".

and I should know.

K

[Chief Chook]

I think the dream that was shattered was one of believing that QF management had morals and a code of ethics.

Well it looks like they don't, and that they are seeking like-minded personnel for 3 month fixed term contracts.

The Chief Chook.

[MOR]

Left2primary

a door fired off in panic and confusion due to inexperience is an accident.

That happens with the fully trained ones too! :p

I think what I was getting at, is that CA training is regulated by CASA (I assume) via the company Ops Manual, and I would be very surprised if two days training met any regulatory requirement. Unless of course the crews in question were experienced CAs before joining the big white rat, in which case panic and confusion shouldn't be an issue!

[FBD]

"Personally if I were a passenger who paid for a first class ticket I would expect first class service, not a person who has minimal training of only eleven days."

But Kaptin - what if this first class passenger just actually wanted to get from point A to point B, not be held ransom by a group i.e. just get the damn plane off the ground so I can get to where I want to go??

[Capt_SNAFU]

A door being fired is an incident, not an accident. (QF1 incident not accident:O )

As to the CSM thing, I have been on flights out of Perth where the most senior F/A (not even a CSS) was CSM for a 3 day trip and she had only been in the company two years, and it worked ok. Suprisingly ;) didn't see CSM in the DDG.

As to EPs training I get scared watching F/As who have done the job for years fumble around the trainer, and get so worrked up over upcoming EPs days. E.P's study is done in the car on the way to EPs which basically consist of looking at my impact drill. If I have to be told how long a 1.5kg BCF last again, I will cry.

As to possible strike action, I think there is no way that the flight attendants can win the PR war, which is all important. The public will get the ****s when they find out that after a six-twelve week course that an off the street person is able to earn 70k+ and is complaining. They will have more people than they already do lining up to get a start for less dollars.

SNAFU out.

[itchybum]

"Personally if I were a passenger who paid for a first class ticket I would expect first class service, not a person who has minimal training of only eleven days." What we want and what we get are not always the same thing. Nothing to do with 11 days training. Service-related complaints stemming from the boiler-brigade have been falling on deaf ears for years.a door fired off in panic and confusion due to inexperience is an accident. Most inadvertent slide-deployments happen during "routine" door actions, not during moments of "panic and confusion" unless deciding whether to dis-arm the door prior to opening it an an aero-bridge is enough to sow confusion in the FA's mind.

[str]

70K ??? which airline are they working for? Oh sorry, they will be on the old EBA.....try 50k for more junior crew.

[mmmbop]

Str,

And apparently 50K for junior crew is a rip off??? You need to get into the real world to see what the majority earn for working far more hours, WITH FAR GREATER QUALIFICATIONS.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=20601

Good luck with your little strike. As Capt_SNAFU mentioned earlier, when the public realise just how OVERPAID you are, for providing them with no service, you won't have public sympathy on your side.....

[Left2primary]

mmmmmmbop,

Is not $50 000 PA now the average wage in Australia?

$60 000 PA was described in one of the papers the other day as "moderate".

How much would you be happy for me to earn ?

L2P

[Pappa Smurf]

Im and average passenger and to be honest it doesnt worry me if its the local check out chick from coles on for a day as long as she is a genuine happy go lucky person .
I can find my own way onto the plane ,find my own seat.
Must admit someone has to turn the movie on and i like the snack pack delivered but thats no big deal.

Safety training is the issue but surely to hell that wouldnt take long.I dont know.As long as someone opens the doors,then im happy.The rest is up to crowd panic and crowd control and until it happens then know one knows.


The average wage around 50g-----yes,correct.
There are some big $ earners out their but the majority of folks still only earn 30-35g.

Bit like reading the average sex life is once a week(actually longer i think).Then their must be a bloody lot getting it once a year

[Left2primary]

cptsnafa,

whats a DDG?


The coming industrial dispute is about the FAAA's fight to prevent hundreds of Australian jobs being exported offshore in Qantas's attempt to boost executive bonuses and its already record bottom line.


IMHO the general public's opinion of these important social, political and economic issues wont be subject to your example of anti FA bias.

L2P

[Woomera]

Salaries paid to professions and trades requiring minimum four years training:

Average annual professional starting salary:
Architect: $26,000
Social Sciences: $35,000
Education: $39,700
Dentistry: $55,000
Medicine: $45,000
Law: $39,480
Nursing: $35,000
Computer Science: $38,000

Average Trade salary:
Mech Engineering: $63,024
LAME: $51,638
Mechanic: $32,864
Electrician: $43,420
Communications Trades: $48,620
Plumber: $45,240

Woomera

[Left2primary]

Thanks for that woomera.

You left out the rate for fork lift drivers.

$50 000 PA wasn't it........?

L2P

[mmmbop]

Woomera has beaten me to it but -

From the ABS 19/12/2003 : the average individual annual wage and salary income for wage and salary earners in New South Wales was $37,191. Adjusted to 2004 figures (census data is old by the time its released) this equates to -$40,225.
This is, of course, the AVERAGE. The High Income Earners disproportianately inflate this figure, despite accounting for less than 20% of the workforce. The MEDIAN figure would be lower than the Average figure.
After reading the figures that Woomera posted you still think that you deserve in excess of $70k a year, I think we all then realise why GD and QF are taking you down the path they are.

Without realising it, you have stumbled onto the gem....-
How much would you be happy for me to earn ?

the operative word here is highlighted. If you actually provided $70,000 worth of service to the company, they would probably happily pay it. As I said before, if you think you do - after reading the average salaries - well then......

whats a DDG? This really does paint the truest example of just how much you over rate your position in the company. If you are indeed Left 2 Primary, you would know exactly what a DDG is.
It is always interesting to debate something with someone who provides no facts, but replies purely emotively.

[rtforu]

Of course Qantas will employ people in overseas bases, it costs a hell of a lot less than using people in Australia. Just take a look at every other industry around you. There is an ever growing number of companies prepared to use overseas labour, why should'nt Qantas?

I'm afraid the old argument that these people are incompetent or poorly trained won't hold up. Don't get me wrong, F/A's do fullfill an important safety role but it's not rocket science. Standing up and telling people how incredibly clever you are and that no one else could do the job as well as you will simply p#ss people off!

[Capt_SNAFU]

Does the 50k a year include the allowances, that most F/A seem to horde to pay off morgages, and thanks to the bunch of them who made the ATO start to tax allowances.:mad:

I am not saying you do a bad job, however you are on a world scale at or near the top of the tree in dollar terms for the position. They are trying to stop the QF pilots and others earning more who are on a world scale near the lower end of the scale for their positions so you don't think they are going to try and get you?

I can think of few people who have ever been in face to face service industries that stay in the same job for 20+ years, so being a F/A must have some attraction, most don't seem to go out much in slip ports maybe it is something else, perhaps it's a fair stack of cash.

[str]

My 50k includes allowances. I'm too junior to get those sought after high allowance, no jetlag, japan trips.

[grrowler]

Whether or not FA's are over or underpaid, the concern, I believe, is the precedent this sets. They are part of the same company that some of us work for. If this is allowed to go ahead, what is QF going to look at next for tech crew? Let's think outside the box, and possibly beyond what effects you directly.

[Ron & Edna Johns]

Grrowler is absolutely correct. The attitude that pervades within QF, amongst it's employees towards fellow employees, is shameful. Pilots think CC are overpaid. CC think pilots are overpaid. Everyone thinks baggage handlers are overpaid. IT are incompetent and overpaid. Engineers (in certain ports) are not worth p!$$ing on. Long haul pilots are pitching against short haulers (A330). Long haul CC vs short haul CC (international routes). And so on and so on.

Managers are well aware of this sort of attitude, this divisiveness, and KNOW FULL WELL that they can target an individual group one at a time, that they will get no support from anyone else. Shameful. Shameful of them and shameful of us.

And we bury our heads, avert our eyes, in the hope that it won't be us next. Hmmm... right. Pilots - do you expect the CC to stand up and support YOUR claim for a pay level/ T&C's when GOD is targetting you? Somehow I don't think they will, given the attitude shown here and expressed all too often on flightdecks around the world.

It is high time that every employee in QF learnt a little mutual respect towards, and understanding of, EVERY other employee's job in QF. Eg, CC don't just get paid what they get for what they do - arguably a certain amount of it is effectively remuneration for spending literally HALF their life away from home. Yes, that point is arguable, some won't agree with me. However that is not really my main argument. If you want to pitch arrows at each other, denegrate each other, in-fight, bitch, etc, then you are going to destroy what collective standard of remuneration we have.

I'll say it again - it is high time we showed genuine, serious mutual respect towards, and understanding of, all other employees in QF.

[jedda]

I hate to say this,but with any industrial action,there will be scabs.Short haul pilots won't support the C.C.(most are already scabs).Long haul pilots will look after themselves.As long as they get fed they do not care who is in the cabin.So much could be achieved if ALL staff backed each other.
Never forget,management bury their mistakes,crew get buried with theirs.
Go for it FAAA!

[Wirraway]

AAP

Some unions trying to do damage: Qantas
October 21, 2004 - 3:44PM

Qantas Airways Ltd said some unions were doing their best to damage Qantas commercially by threatening industrial action over the decision to set up cabin crew bases in London.

Chief executive Geoff Dixon said the airline's plan to establish a new cabin crew base in London would contribute more than $18 million a year in saving.

"This base will contribute over $18 million a year in savings by reducing allowance costs and increasing crew productivity," Mr Dixon told the company's annual general meeting in Brisbane.

"That said, the overwhelming majority of our cabin crew will still be based in Australia."

Mr Dixon said the airline must explore every option to improve productivity and reduce cost.

"We make no apologies for doing all we can to ensure that our rate of growth is maintained and that our shareholders receive a return for their investment," he said.

Mr Dixon said since the decision was made to set up the London base, Qantas had spent almost four months in negotiations with the international cabin crew union.

"We have undertaken that none of our current permanent crew will lose their jobs as a result of this decision," he said.

"We have reached a collective agreement with the relevant union in the UK to cover staff in the base.

"And we are offering rates of pay that will ensure that there are top quality UK applicants competing for positions not filled by Australians."

Mr Dixon said the airline's approach was about balance, making the savings required to remain competitive, maintaining high quality and taking the interests of its employees into account.

"That said, some unions are more prepared to work with us than others," he said.

"Balance also means that Qantas will not be hostage to a union that is not prepared to changed and adapt for the benefit of the whole Qantas group.

"Some unions have recently been doing their best to damage Qantas commercially."

He cited threats of industrial action by international cabin crew at Christmas and rumours of plans to abuse "very generous" sick leave entitlement through "sickies".

"This campaign can only hurt the interests of all Qantas employees," Mr Dixon said.

He said Australian international cabin crew had work conditions "envied throughout" the aviation industry.

"Whatever the union does decide to do, we will, and we must, have contingency plans in place," he said.

"I hope there will be no industrial action, but we will ensure that we can fly our passengers and protect our business whatever happens."

Qantas has been accused of training 37 strike-breaking flight attendants on three month contracts to fly long haul routes.

Mr Dixon said Qantas was not ashamed of what it was doing.

"Nor do we consider as further alleged by the (International Cabin Crew) union that it is un-Australian to try and drive efficiencies through our company that will do much to protect our future," he said.

"It certainly would be un-Australian for us to stand idly by while union officials threaten to disrupt the Christmas travel plans of their fellow Australians."

Mr Dixon also said the Qantas was of doing business was being challenged by the rise in fuel prices to record levels and the billions of dollars foreign governments in the Middle East and the US are pumping into their airlines.

"Change will continue to be the one constant of our industry," he said.

"Our strategy to invest over $18 billion over ten years must continue to be underpinned by a focus on productivity and cost reduction, and flexibility in all areas of our business."

Qantas chairman Margaret Jackson told the meeting that the airline would not introduce discount travel or benefits for shareholders, because it would be inequitable.

""We do consider the issue of shareholder discounts regularly," she said.

"But the board believes that shareholder discounts would be inequitable."

Ms Jackson reminded the floor that a large number of shareholders were institutions.

She also said shareholders can participate in the airline's Frequent Flier program and take advantage of special airfares offered during the year.

However, she said the company would look at offering Qantas Club membership to shareholders of 10 years or more.

Ms Jackson was responding to written questions from shareholder relating the company's fiscal 2004 accounts.

She also said, while the airline posted a record profit in 2004, it had retained the dividend at 17 cents per share because of Qantas' need for capital.

"Qantas is in an intensive capital rebuilding phase," she said.

Qantas' 2004 dividend payout ratio was about 48 per cent.

Ms Jackson said dividend growth would probably lag profit growth until the payout ratio reached around 40 per cent, given the airline's current need for capital.

Qantas shares were up three cents to $3.36 at 1520 AEST on Thursday.

Brought to you by
© 2004 AAP

==========================================

[Three Bars]

I wonder if the shareholders approved the director's latest trough-snouting after this latest crying-poor exercise and a refusal to grant shareholders discounted tickets.

[Left2primary]

mmmmbop or cptsnafu,

whats a DDG and how much would you be happy for me to earn?

L2P

[MoFo]

Jedda.
The majority of Short haul crew will be interested to hear you call them scabs.

Way over 50% of short haul crew were not part of 89. I assume thats what you allude to.

Perhaps you need to come into the 21st century. Get your facts straight.

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

L2p, don't sweat it. It is a dispatch deviation guide and there is no requirement for CC to know anything about it..... and I hope you guys let QF know that there is a line in the sand that should not be crossed, because AIPA sure doesn't seem to know about one..

[Left2primary]

The_Cutest_of_Borg,

Thanks.

L2P

[DirectAnywhere]

Check out 7.30 Report NOW!!!!!!!

[Sunfish]

I think I'm going to vomit! Told you so!

Going on about salaries of CEO's is a non event.

You need to do the Australian thing. Threaten the Qantas brand name. Nothing else will win you the battle.

[amos2]

89' is about to start all over again!

You lot take care, you hear?

[itchybum]

yeah d'ya hear? Just do what amos and The Others did... nothing can possibly go wrong....... *screech* -ssibly go wrong..... *screech* -ssibly go wrong..... *screech* -ssibly go wrong.....

[Iguanahead]

Isn't the point driving this dispute primarily about the cap on numbers of foreign crew based overseas and not a wage dispute?

From the crew I know they just want assurances that Australian jobs won't be lost here while holding on to overseas based crew. The money always take over the argument and distracts from the real issues.

If you think it's OK for this to go ahead for QF cabin crew then surely you would support QF tech crew bases in LHR with foreign crew as well.

I'm sure GOD would love to see how much that would save him, or are European based tech crew payed the same as our guys over here? Somehow I don't think so.

[Laikim Liklik Susu]

Hmmm. History does repeat, doesn't it!

Hmmm. Wonder if we could REVERSE-scab, and take the jobs of scabs. Now, that would be somewhat fun!

Dang it, that black list would keep me out no matter how desperate they were. Bugger. :{

Maybe E.P and his ilk would have better luck. Oh, hang on, if it's not an A320, he's not interested, because he can eat his lunch in style on his A320. :yuk:

Memo to self - stop drinking after 21:30

[Santaclaus]

Wages paid in Darwin.

An A Grade Electrician with one of Darwins biggest companies after a four year apprenticeship gets $ 19.00 per hr.
= $ 37544.00 per year

A Postformer in a Cabinetmaking Co. after 14 years in the same job gets $ 17.00 per hr.
= $ 33592.00 per year

I forgot, the Postformer above has also got a Forklift drivers ticket like just about everybody in that company.

[itchybum]

What about a hash-slinger in Maccas? How much are they on?

It takes a while to be qualified on all the equipment... the burger-machine, chip-friers, auto-drink pouring machines, memory items from the menu, CRM, dealing with drunks, marketing ("do you want fries with that..."), etc.... They should be on 70 grand a year too. Especially the ones doing a degree at same time.

AND if you're a maccas burger chic, you're ALWAYS working during your 10hr shift. Your "passengers" never go to sleep or watch movies.

[Wirraway]

Fri "The Australian"

Qantas faces strike threat
Steve Creedy and Brad Norington
October 22, 2004

QANTAS is preparing for major disruption to flights over the peak Christmas period, after unions yesterday warned of likely strikes over the airline's plans to base large numbers of staff overseas.

Qantas has admitted to training strikebreakers who would do the jobs of flight attendants and others expected to take industrial action.

The revelations came as Qantas flight attendants threatened to strike during December unless the airline put a limit on the number of flight attendants to be based overseas.

The Australian Services Union also threatened ground staff action if Qantas went ahead with plans to raise fees for its non-executive directors by 66per cent while workers received about 3per cent.

Strong prospects of industrial action affecting domestic and international flights over the busiest time of the year comes as the Howard Government foreshadows draconian reform of industrial relations legislation for a major assault on union power.

John Howard said last night he hoped the strike would not go ahead. He said he understood Qantas's reasons for wanting to base staff in London, considering it was an international airline in a global economy.

Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon advised passengers to book tickets with confidence, saying flights would go ahead.

Mr Dixon warned unions the airline would do whatever necessary to keep flying and to wrest further productivity gains as it seeks to shore up its record profits against an expected onslaught by overseas carriers.

Qantas executives yesterday defended the airline's right to train "strikebreakers" and said it would continue to do so where necessary.

The comments came after shareholders voted to allow a cap on directors' fees to be increased by 66per cent from $1.5million to $2.5million.

The airline is already facing industrial action by international flight attendants over plans to start a base in London and has been training 350 "contingency workers" to fill in their gap.

Mr Dixon accused the flight attendants' union of "doing their best to damage this company commercially".

"Our intention is to look after our customers - the same way, I might add, as we look after our staff," Mr Dixon said after the airline's annual general meeting in Brisbane.

"We'll fly and we'll take every measure to ensure that we do fly - it's our right."

Mr Dixon stopped short of saying he was drawing one of his trademark lines in the sand for unions, but urged workers to look at what was happening with airlines overseas.

He pointed to US carriers slashing wages and restructuring under bankruptcy protection, and government-subsidised carriers, as the biggest threats.

Qantas's latest industrial threat was revealed when Australian Services Union assistant national secretary Linda White told shareholders staff were angry about the 66per cent raise in directors' fees in light of the 3per cent pay rises workers were being offered in enterprise bargaining negotiations.

Ms White, whose union represents about 12,000 Qantas workers and campaigned against the directors' increase, said "significant numbers" had signed a pledge to back an industrial campaign if the pay rise went through.

"As far as I can see it is a 66per cent pay rise, the staff are very angry (and) there will be ramifications," Ms White said.

Shareholders ignored the union's pleas and overwhelmingly approved the request to increase the maximum amount available each year for directors' fees.

==========================================

[Johhny Utah]

There was a soundbite from the PM on the radio this morning, where he was saying that Qantas crew going on strike in Decmber would be "un-Australian". :yuk: Very disappointing that the PM has already stepped into what are at this stage negotiations between a company & it's employees. Unfortunately, it shows that the company is already 'softening up' the general public & media in preparation for the looming industrial battle...:uhoh:

[bonvol]

It's a tried and tested formula that the company are using. Next will be newspaper ads showing how much better off the F/As are compared to the poor old average worker.

Divide and conquer, never fails.

The F/As have had some positive press but if they dont ramp up the PR campaign they are on a hiding to nothing IMO.

[Ralph the Bong]

Not forgetting that the FA base salay is not all that great when one consideres the fact of working shifts, back-of-the clock, week ends, public holidays, x-mas.. It is the allowances that puff the pay pack out to make the salary seem over inflated!

IMNSHO, FAs get a reasonable salary and they deserve it. After all, how many other jobs out there demand that employees spend a sizable % of their lives 1000s of miles from home and family. I think that it is fair to consider the above average salary that FAs get to be recompence for being stuffed around :ok:

I case some of the brain-dead out there in pprune land have'nt noticed, the executive classes declared war on the white collar worker about 15 years ago. Jackson, Howard, Dixon
et al are after YOUR personal wealth. They make money by cutting YOUR conditions.

Looking into my crystal ball, I see an industry where everone is a 'casual', pays for their own training and is paid only for the hours that they work...not very nice , eh?

Now, raise your hand if you voted fof John Howard...thought so... morons......:suspect:

[Angle of Attack]

1st Point - With Howard as PM, the stike will fail.

2nd Point - I am a unionist have been in 3 other unions before flying, in principle the FA's have a point, but I beleive they cant justify it. After all, Degree graduates I know are on 30's or if they are lucky low 40's for first several years. If FA's dont like being overseas for 50% of time dont take the job, its that simple.

3rd Point - Yes maybe the company will go for other sections of the company after FA's, I dont know, but if they give me $hit I'll go to Emirates or Dragon air, or whatever, without a problem. The nature of the job is different it's easier for pilots to move beacause we have skills.

4th point - Im not denigrating FA's in QF but if you havent realised its not a career in any other airline, havent you noticed?

5th Point - If you think Im an idiot I dont care, you didnt struggle for 13 years to get a career, and if you did... what the??

[Icarus2001]

UnAustralian! Does anyone ever buy that line? The jingoistic notion that Australia and Australians some how have a monoply on a "fair go" and treating people "fairly". This phrase is bereft of meaning! It is the last line in an argument, something akin to ner ner na ner ner!

For Mr Howard to use that phrase is, as pointed out above, a good indicator of what is in store. Clearly lying about throwing children overboard, Mr Abbott denying meeting the priest, guaranteeing having no gst then bringing one in, ignoring UN resolutions...(add your own favourite dissemble from the last eight years) are all Australian traits at their core so Mr Howard is comfortable using them.

Good luck because you are going to need it with the government and parliament virtually inseperable!

[str]

"Better to Fight for something than to live for nothing"

if the strike fails so be it. But crew are ready for a fight and its going to cost Qantas millions in lost revenue.

Angle of Attack - we aren't striking about pay - we just want a guarantee that the bulk of FA positions will stay Australian based.

[Angle of Attack]

str - yes sorry so many issues to discuss, i forgot the basic problem, thanks for reminding me, i agree that it is not a good idea to be basing jobs overseas for a saving, after all, its an airline, when you hop on an aussie plane your expecting aussie faces. I beleive its a clandesteine effort to reduce the number of aussies actually. Unfortunately the punters have voted in howard, you cant win, and he will keep pushing to push fair dinkum workers into the ground the scoundrel.... by the way i voted for howard!! haha not!!

ps > how the hell did he get back in? im still flabbergasted!

[Uncommon Sense]

1. If you work for QF in any job you should be sticking together, not throwing stones at each other - chances are YOU will be the next target of Geoffs 'productivity' drive.

2. The directors agenda is obscene personal greed - company law allows it. Shareholders fall for it.

3. dixon and howard have already stiched up the game plan - they even dropped a few hints yesterday so the union could pick it up - they both used the 'ESSENTIAL SERVICES' line. Yes thats right, howard is about to do a bob hawke. (How is a private company with lots of competition an essential services exactly? I am sure howard will be able to tell us).

4. FAAA - here is an idea. It might even work. The 'contingency workers' or 'strike breakers' as you like to call them (rightly so) can not be on 'standby' forever. So, don't give it away when you are going to strike, or all get the flu. Do it at short notice in a few months. See how many of them are still' 'hanging on ' for their 'glamour' :hmm: job then!

5. QF are the ones who sold Cabin Crew as a 'career', long before most of those here saying otherwise were probably out of nappies.

6. Good luck FAAA. You are the first test case of our new brave world we have elected. I wonder how many of those with a big gloating 'we won' liberal smirk will still be wearing it in 3years from now - and will still have a job.

Dixon is selling out the QF brand name for some personal gain - thats about the crux of it. And that is not good for your business.

[Wirraway]

Sat "Melbourne Age"

PM backs Qantas on strike staff
By Paul Robinson
Workplace Editor
October 23, 2004

The union movement came under renewed pressure from the emerging force of contractors yesterday when the Federal Government backed Qantas' moves to hire strike-breakers to minimise the effect of threatened industrial action over Christmas.

Prime Minister John Howard endorsed the secret training of replacement flight attendants to ensure adequate staff to keep Qantas in the air over the busy holiday period.

He told Melbourne radio: "I respect the right of a company to take action to ensure that it can continue to operate and do business and providing it acts within the law, it's entitled to do that."

Soon after Mr Howard's endorsement of Qantas' action, his Workplace Relations Minister, Kevin Andrews, foreshadowed laws to make it easier for employees to opt out of the traditional industrial system and become independent contractors.

Mr Andrews told a conference in Melbourne that Australia's workforce had changed irrevocably and new rules were needed to keep pace with reality. The Independent Contractors Act would stop unions from using the Australian Industrial Relations Commission to impose constraints on contracting.

Mr Andrews told the Centenary Convention of Conciliation and Arbitration that more than 1 million workers were independent contractors, which reflected a "modern, decentralised and flexible workforce".

He said the number of employees who relied on awards had slipped from 68 per cent in 1990 to 21 per cent in 2002.

Enterprise agreements and contracts now regulated 38 per cent of employees while 41 per cent of employees were covered by informal individual and collective arrangements. "This stream of the workforce is outside the jurisdiction of the traditional industrial relations system and complements it," he said.

Victoria's Industrial Relations Minister, Rob Hulls, rejected any attempt to introduce a "legal fiction" that would result in employees reclassified as sub-contractors.

"This could deny workers access to normal employment standards such as annual leave, bereavement leave, sick leave and annual leave," Mr Hulls said. "It would also have the devastating impact of undermining health and safety standards by allowing employers to shift responsibility for providing safe workplaces to their employees."

National Union of Workers Victorian secretary Martin Pakula said companies in tea-packing, skin and hide and plastics had tried to declare workers redundant, then rehired many as contractors, pushing employment costs on to workers.

"This is a move to save on payroll tax, workers comp, remove unfair dismissal obligations, superannuation payments - effectively passing costs on to people who are essentially employees," Mr Pakula said.

Mr Andrews said the Government would consult before drafting laws: "I appreciate there are some arrangements which could claim to be independent contracting which are not," he said. "That's not the Government's intention. There is a clear understanding in my mind as to who is an independent contractor."

Meanwhile, High Court judge Michael Kirby praised the Industrial Relations Commission, telling the convention it had protected Australia's underlying principle of a "fair go".

In a veiled reference to conservative economists at the Institute for Private Enterprise, Justice Kirby said there was "no room in this nation for industrial ayatollahs".

=========================================

[Sunfish]

Told you so already. Howards "Un Australian" call is the first strike in the battle for whether Qantas Management represents "the spirit of Australia" or the FA's do.

Fa's its really simple. You have to convince the general public that the managment is sucking the "Australianness" out of Qantas. To put it another way, every time Qantas runs the "I still call Australia Home" ads (if they dare) you want the General public to think about Australian FA's.

[Kaptin M]

Here's the depth of thinking required to be the QANTAS CEO, so that you can reap MILLIONS of $$$$'s in salary & bonuses!

On BBC TV yesterday, it was announced that QANTAS would save USD12 million by basing some 400 Flight Attendants in the U.K.
That works out at USD30,000 per Flight Attendant.

So Geoff, why stop there?
Why not reduce the salaries of ALL QF staff by the same amount - but outsourcing jobs to cheap, overseas workers?
Your "Performance Bonus" will go even further through the roof, the aviation sector of the TWU will be completely shattered, and the satisfaction that the "NT" (northern territories) part of the QANTAS name is now being fully realised!

QANTAS staff should understand now, that by publically stating this, as the basis for the saving, he's not going to stop at the F/A's, and you have to ask yourself

WHO will be next?

[relax737]

An Australian Dream Shattered???? What is the dream?

If the answer is being paid a lot, probably excessively for your skill level, then the dream is about to be shattered.
I appreciate that the FA body feels outraged that GOD is making an attack on their pay and conditions by employing UK crew, etc., but that's life and a commercial decision.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but he did guarantee that no Australian FAsw ould lose jobs, so what's the problem. I see nothing that says QF must employ onlyAustralian FAs, and I understand they have been employing non Australian pilots for some years, not many, but non Australian. They are based in Australia though.

Further, QF have employed non Australian FAs, based in SE Asia for some years also, so the argument that pax expect to be served by Australians seems a little outdated. In any event, Australia has been almost a melting pot of other races/natinalities for many years, and I recall being served by non Australian (anglo saxon) looking FAs twenty years ago. Hollow argument that one

Please don't see this as a personal attack on FAs. I have many friends in their ranks, but those friends, realists, realize that all good thingsmust come to an end.
Modern day CEOs don't care for people, or what they are worth to the company etc. They see only bottom lines and their bonuses and if that creates mayhem amongst the rank andfile then that is an unavoidable but manageable result.

Those in the pilot ranks, who are realists, will also knowthat this is the thin edgeof the wedge and they are in Geoff s sights. Good luck girls and boys. It would be better to get in there and try to negotiate as painless a solution as you possibly can rather than have the floor covered in blood.

I hope for all QF crews sakes that the damage can be minimized, but whatever is about to happen is inevitable.

Incidentally I found the following on News Com this morning. It's wo rth thinking about when you discuss work value/salary. The thrust of the article was that tradespeople are currently earning more than graduates because of the shortages in trades.



Aircraft maintenance engineer: $51,636

Mechanic: $32,864

Electrician: $43,420

Plumber: $45,240

Mechanical engineering tradesperson: $63,024

UNIVERSITY GRADUATES

Architecture: $28,000

Nursing: $35,000

Law: $39,480

Education: $39,700

Medicine: $45,000

Dentistry: $55,000

Source: What Jobs Pay 2004-2005/www.gradlink.edu.au. Look for the tile at the top of the home page that reads gradsonline –what are you worth?

[str]

relax737 - as said only a few posts ago - THIS IS NOT ABOUT THE SALARY.

Dixon has SAID there will be no loss of Australian jobs.

Can we really be expected to believe him? QF (mis) managers have lied consistently over the past couple of year, no wonder an overwhelming amount of staff recently surveyed said they had no trust in them.

If he is going to guarantee no loss of Australian jobs then QF need to agree to have this in the EBA. Something along the lines of overseas bases will close first before the loss of any Australian jobs.

Even then Australian jobs are being lost because instead of hiring Australians they will just hire overseas labour.

This is a company making nearly 1 billion dollars in profit. There is no excuse for these actions apart from greed on behalf of the management.

[relax737]

str, please understand I am not agin you!!

But also please understand, and I think you do, that whatever Dixon and the PM say is not always/never the truth. So.......when they say it's not about salary, read the previous sentence, and that is "....is not always the truth."

I would go so far as to suggest that the FAs do not REALLY know the agenda. Youmay think you do but you may not. I say this because when companies embark on a programme such as this, they are thinking one, two, maybe five years ahead of right now. Is the FA union that well equipped? My own answer is that they are probably not, just as the pilots weren't back in 89, and the same forces are amassing against you
I think what all are missing here, is that this, more than most industries, is a truly international business. Some businesses do business overseas, but an international airline IS overseas every day. Where they base staff is a commercial decision. I don't like it either, but it is the 21st century, and things are different from what they were 20 years ago.

I support your position on overseas staff going first in the event of a downturn, but commercially that would be difficult to support.

Australia has a closeted, almost quaint (by many other countries' standards), inudstrial relations system. I like it, but it's unsustainable. I've been overseas a long time, and know of no other system so protective of workers rights. I haven't been everywhere of course.

I recall having a beer with an Air 2000 pilot many years ago in Europe. He flew in Australia during the 89 fiasco, and he called the dispute 'the summer of discontent' and likened it to Thatcher's 'winter of discontent' shen she set upon the union breaking campaign of a few years previously.

I say to you all, again, good luck, but my personal view is that you should get in there and negotiate the least painful solution. All solutions will be painful, but there will be some middle ground that will be least so.

Bear inmind that you can't and won't win the PR battle,and that is a large parft of a modern industrial campaign.

Icarus, I agree.
KaptinM, I agree also. Who will be next? I think it's obvious.

[Gnadenburg]

Relax

How where those wage statistics deduced? I would suggest they have been slewed somewhat, for the benefit of an opinion.

Those professional wages are probably correct for someone who has just graduated. A little low for a professional that has been in the game for few years. Very low as matter of fact.

There must be some financial renumeration, on top of what you all deem an appropriate wage for a Flight Attendant, to compensate for being away from home for long periods of time, flying all night and sitting in an aluminium tube exposed to radiation and airline food!

[relax737]

Gnadenburg,

As mentioned they came from a site that spewed out of News.com. I didn't make them up.

They probably are for firstyear professionals, although I know a doctor back in Sydney who works for a clinic and he earns less than 70 pa in his third year. They doctor who owns the clinic and employs twenty young doctors, is making a couple of mill, but he's a businessman and a doctor.

As for what a FA is worth?? Don't know. Whatever the airline is prepared to pay I suppose, and in these days of EB, the airline is entitled to ask them to work for nothing, and they are entitled to ask for 100 a year base. That's where the bargaining comes in.

All I am saying is that unless they get in there and negotiate a satisfactory outcome BEFORE the expiration of their agreement, something I don't think Qf want, then there is going to be a blue to rival the 89 punch up.

[SydGirl]

Whether you think an FA is overpaid or underpaid is really irrelevant.

What FAs are doing is attempting to keep Australian jobs in Australia. At the moment there is a cap on the number of overseas based workers that QF can employ. QF (obviously) wants to get rid of this cap so they can employ cheaper offshore labour whenever they want to.

Logical, of course. After all they are a business. The number crunchers have already worked out how many millions they will be saving by having more foreign workers.

QF has already 'guaranteed' that there will be no redundancies as a result of the foreign basing. Exactly, they won't get rid of their permanent full time staff, they will get rid of the myriad of contractors, casual and fixed term FAs they already have - all of whom are based in Australia. I am willing to bet my left butt cheek that there will be no loss of jobs for the current NZ or Thailand based cabin crew. So, whilst technically there will not be any redundancies, it means that Australian based staff will be replaced by foreign labour when their term ends.

Personally, I physically gag when I see the "I still call Australia home" commercials on TV. Everyone knows that QF is a global, competitive business (still not so sure about it being an 'essential service' just yet), but don't go selling your true blue Australian image then have Australian workers replaced with cheap foreign offshore labour.

My thoughts.
SG
:}

[relax737]

SydGirl, what I think about FA salaries is irrelevant.

But, by looking to recruit more overseas based FAs for QF, Dixon thinks they are, and that is relevant.

The next step is replacing Aust based FAs or having them work for less.

It doesn't get any simpler than that.

It is a global industry, and whilst I commend and support your position, it is not realistic in 2004. Sorry.

[Kaptin M]

What the Oz public really want to know is "How much cheaper will it be to fly after this enema?"

To April 2nd, 2004, 20.01 million passengers had been carried for the year to date.Erring on the generous side, that works out to about 5 million per month, or 60 million in 12 months.
So by basing the 400 F/A's offshore, QANTAS have said they'll save USD12million.
That sure sounds like one heck of a saving that can be passed on to the Oz public, to make flying more affordable, doesn't it!
So dividing the 12 million bucks by the (conservatively calculated) 60 million pax we should see QANTAS slashing fares by............
20 cents!!!

But how much will Geoff's "Performance Bonus" increase be, based on this 12 million dollar saving?

And how much will it cost the Oz public in TAX, to support the 400 Australian employees (and their dependants) who are now placed in the Dole queue, claiming Government Social Welfare benefits?

[Ralph the Bong]

Howard wouldn't care 2 figs about the number of people who may lose their jobs; his role is to look after the Big End of Town, not the tax payer.

Now, the Big End of Town like it when people lose their jobs. The reason is because it enhances the realtive wealth differential between them and the white or blue collar newly unemployed. After all, if you lose your job and have to sell your house, who do you think is going to buy it? Why the Executive with his/her Big Bonus of course!!

Ladies and Gentlemen of the FAAA, please use your patience and intellegence on this one. Take no action which will lead to a bloodbath along the lines of '89. See Uncommon Sense's post above (point 4). These people have apparently been told that they are not to accept full time employment elsewhere until called by QF. String them out for several months and allow the Strike-breakers to tire of waiting and move on to somthing else.

I would like to point out how Geoff and Margret are always bleating about how the very existance of QANTAS is under threat unless they can cut costs(a similar appeal was made to the Aust. gov to prevent the SQ bailout of Ansett in 2001). Funny, the 2 majors in Australia make around $1.4 Billion in pre-tax profit. Maybe there IS room for a 3rd. carrier!:ok:

[HotDog]

This thread is rapidly becoming a Howard/Liberal shooting gallery target. Get over it guys, it was no accident that they were re-elected after a nine year period of satisfactory performance.:ok:

[Ibex]

...re-elected after a nine year period of satisfactory performance.

Please. While the alternative didn't excite me too much, Howard was re-elected again on a scare campaign.

Last time it was security, this time it was interest rates.

Those mums and dads in the sandy suburban mortgage belts hocked up to their eyeballs in debt were hooked well and truly by the scare campaign and misinformation on the "economic" performance of the Howard government.

Interesting that labour lost a large amount of seats in these mortgage belt suburbs while holding or gaining nearly every single inner city electorate.

External influences play a much larger part on Australia’s economy and interest rates than ratty ever will, despite what he tells you.

[relax737]

Kaptin M,

Air fares will decrease by about the same as, say, a part for a Toyota, decreased after the Patrick debacle.

That was pushed along by telling the public that if the wharfies were made to be more productive, then the consumer would benefit.

It didn't matter whether the wharfies moved 4 containers an hour, or forty. If each container held, e.g. a million $$ worth of spare parts for Toyotas, or even half a million, by dropping the handling rate from $1000 per cdontainer to $25 per container, you don't have to have a degree in applied mathematics to see that the end result, at the sales counter, is SFA.

It's not about a deal for the consumer. It's about a deal for Dixon. It might only be $12 million, but he will do that again and again over the year to different groups, and the end result will be bulk $$ in his pocket.

This reminds me of my ******** brother saying that a pollie wasting $100K on travel was just peanuts. He's right, it is in the overall scheme of a national budget. But when you have hundreds of pollies doing it, then the peanuts become coconuts.

I remember the argument used years ago by airline managements (and swallowed by the public), and probably still is, that if they could reduce the pilots' salaries, then airfares could be halved.

When the exercise was done, pilots' sal;aries were halved, the cost of MEL-SYD was reduced by 12.5 cents.

So once again, the smokescreen of reducing airfares is just that. It's about bottom lines and enhancing Geoff's position.

Incidentally where is your flag and title; mild, moderate and whatever else it was?

[esreverlluf]

To all you Labor voters out there that are still think Latham should be PM,

there has just been an election

and guess who the overwhelming majority voted for.

Nobody likes a sore loser.

Furthermore, as one of the graduates who earn a good deal less than a hostie - I have no sympathy for them in this case and nor, I believe, will the public once details of their current deal filter through to the media.

[Kaptin M]

Oh that brother, relax737 :}

So central to this action by Dixon to replace Australian F/A's with overseas labour, is an issue that will affect EVERY Australian, regardless of whether they fly or they don't.

The issue of Australians being made redundant by an Australian company - QANTAS - and forced onto Government Social Welfare benefits which are paid for by EVERY working Australian through taxation.
Now as if this weren't enough, those positions in QANTAS are now going to be filled by non-Australians, whose salaries are going to be paid by QANTAS!

If someone wants to go down the salary road, fine....le'ts go there. Try this.....
Here you have the CEO of QANTAS, on a MULTI-MILLION dollar per annum salary package, denying Australians on about 3% of his salary, now being told that QANTAS cannot afford THEM :mad: :mad:

Australia won't wear this.

It's UNAustralian, and ANTI-Australian!
And I couldn't give a rat's @rse about how jingoistic that sounds - it's the TRUTH!

[Gnadenburg]

esreverlluf

Don't be such a goose!

That you, as a graduate ( tell us about yourself ), can not negotiate a professional wage in excess of that of a Flight Attendant, indicates poor vocational selection or ability.

I have a sneaking suspicion your a QF Cadet or the like ( S/O ).

If so, to have no sympathy for your colleagues who are having their jobs outsourced abroad, a deep-seated naivity. What you make now, may well be little different to what you make on your first command in QF- if the Dixon/Oldmeadow reforms gain pace!

The public will have little sympathy for you too; when they discover what you get paid to fold maps in the jump seat.

:p

[relax737]

Kaptin M,

I understand what you are saying, but the pollies and Dixon don't care. UnAustralian, whatever that means, is irrelevant, and the public WILL wear it.
The cost of having them on the dolewill be considered irrelevant by the politicians in the interests of having a successful QF bottom line. A few thousand former QF FAs on the dole wouldcost less than $3 M per annum. Not big numbers.

The Philippines and Indonesia don't have a mortgage on graft and corruption, and a sweetener sent the PM's way, either now or after retirement, will grease the wheels and that is evidentalready.

The PR war will include what they earn for what they do,the qualification they hold, and the public will hate them, just as they did you guys back 15 years when they were told you earned 100K for 30 hours a month. The first casualityof any war, including industrial campaigns, is the truth.

I guarantee you that the public will cop it without a whimper.

Your flag and other things are back. My ^%$&# computer it seems.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Gotta agree 100% with KaptinM on this subject.

Modern society is run by beancounters for beancounters...shareholders are merely a 'cost of doing business' as far as they are concerned.

And the system will always protect itself from attack...ALWAYS.

It may take many years but this can only end in meltdown for society...there is only so much juice in an orange.

But none of the present encumbants will be around to pay the piper...and the system will find a usefull scapegoat.

This is ALL globalisation is about..western corporate greed.

[HotDog]

Ibex, I guess it's human nature to come up with excuses for failures; but 60% of Australian voters can't all be idiots.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Hotdog you've obviously not heard the expression 'you can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time but not all of the people all of the time".

If you do not understand that Pollies and CEOs have been well briefed by people expert in 'controlling' the masses, in particular controlling what they believe is 'true' via the various media, you are truly nieve.

I see a time, perhaps to far in the future to directly effect us, when AIPA, FAAA, AFAP etc won't exist at all...they'll be a distant memory at best but more likely a salutory lesson in how employees should NOT negotiate with employers...i.e. individually.

If our children are lucky the fecking carnts who currently blight society will be up against the AEU...Aviation Employees Union. Incorporating Pilots (at every level of commercial aviation), LAMEs, AMEs, FAs, refuelers, baggage handlers, catering staff etc....employment in any facet of aviation will require membership.

The representatives will recognise and negotiate pay and conditions commensurate with recognised qualifications, time spent in the industry, relative responsibility, relative lifestyle issues (i.e. longhaul vs shorthaul, nightshift vs dayshift etc).

The downwood spiral of T&Cs will be un-ending until that time. It will take a willingness to co-operate in a collective, mature FAIR and REASONABLE manner...which is why it's a very long time in the future...unfortunately, human nature being what it is...as WELL understood by the forces arrayed against 'workers'.

It is an undeniable fact that current trends in T&Cs for the 'average' employee can only end up in people working far longer for far less...i.e. retiring at 70+ and being dead by 75. There is no other way Govts can allow things to go....the hole in pensions will see to that....not that pollies and CEOs and a relatively small % of shareholders will be affected thus. The generation retiring now are the last who'll retire on a good enough pension, for the most part, at a young enough age to enjoy a reasonable life in their last years. This last sentence does not apply to a person entering pollitics today...they'll still be enjoying pension plans in forty years that were deemed unsustainable for the rest of the population 10 years ago.

Remember too that 'shareholders' are not a homogenous group of winners...for one group to win another group (of shareholders) must lose.

But imagine a time when CEOs/pollies/Institutional shareholders will have to take on the entire work force....or not as the case may be:ok: :E

Pure fantasy?

Possibly...but if you back enough people into corners who knows what is all of a sudden 'possible'.

Read GOD's quotes above again...carefully...particularly those pertaining to 'protecting' the rights of the company, the future growth, future profitability, future returns for investors..etc

GOD has no real long term controll over prices of fuel, aircraft, airport slots, air nav charges or any of a myriad of third party overheads. The only costs he controls are the terms and conditions of employment of the 10s of thousands of average employees...pilots, FAs all the way down to floor cleaners..easy targets all.

[Kaptin M]

Respectfully guys, let's try to keep this thread on the rails - this attack on QF F/A's (to start with) is significant not only from the Oz aviation point of view, but in the overall Australian workforce landscape.
If you want to run a post election disection do it on a separate topic, please.

By the same token, I would guess that Howard is involved in this up to his long eyebrows, as he attempts to smash the ACTU powerbase, which co-incidentally has long been the superstructure of the ALP.
When/if it eventually happens, then none other than past Oz Prime Minister - and Rupert Murdoch puppet - Robert James Lee Hawke, can be more certainly credited with achieving a decisive coup de etat, than he.

As a lifetime Liberal Party voter, I NOW do not agree with the way workers are having their (union) protection stripped away with the concurrence of the peoples' representative - the Government - to enable a priveleged few CEO's achieve their ambitions of outrageous greed, at the expense of not only the immediate workforce in their charge, but the overall Australian population.

As critical and envious as some might be of incomes and working conditions of others, actively flaming them will NOT improve your OWN conditions, nor advance you.
If you believe that you are better qualified, and deserve higher recognition/compensation, then seek to obtain it, without resorting to destroy others' (conditions).

IMO, Dixon is attempting to further himself by destroying the conditions of other Australians - he is a negative force in QANTAS...a non team player both in the QANTAS, and Australian sense.

[Butterfield8]

Do the numbers,54% of Australians voted against the coalition,46% voted for.I speak of all the people who voted Greens,Labor,Family First,Democrat and others...Add it up its 54%.How many people are eligible to vote? 13 million.So in a population of 20 million,6 million voted for the coalition.Where do I get my figures...Australian Bureau of Statistics.Look up the website.

[relax737]

I may be wrong butterfield, but in Keating's winning year, a lesser % voted for Labor than the coalition parties. That is a lesser % than voted for the coalition this election.

Until the system is changed from preferential to first past the post, it will continue to happen. Neither party is willing to change from preferential because they are afraid it may work against them in the future.

But KM, you're right. This is ot the forum to dissect the election result.

[Cornholio]

It's not about the moronic preferential voting system, it's about electorates and their largely varying populations having the say over that particular seat.

[HotDog]

Keep on chuckling Chimbu:sad:

[mmmbop]

The FAs that visit this thread can write whatever they want to, in order to argue their point and and try to get support. But it is a hypocrisy when they state that Dixon is only attacking them to put money in his pocket.

They are not doing this 'to keep their jobs'

They are not doing this to 'keep jobs in Australia'

They are doing it to keep money in their pockets, plain and simple.

When a base is set up in LHR, no longer will they fly to Europe. No longer will they get the overtime from the Asia-Europe sector. No longer will they get to sit in the Hotel hoarding their allowances.

Is that worth going on strike for over Christmas.....some of you will think maybe. You be the judge.
Are they going to lose their jobs - no. What they are going to lose is their overtime and allowances - there is a big difference.

My point is this - stop telling everybody the strike is about one thing when its really about another. Dixon is doing this to save money- yes. To say he is doing this to line his own pockets is an uneducated, knee jerk response of somebody who really lacks the ability to take in the big picture. You have your jobs, you will keep your jobs, it just wont be on the over-inflated salaries you were used to when the company was a government owned airline.

Its time to sat back and start to read some of his rheotoric with an open mind. Is he over-doing the doom and gloom picture? A little. But nothing he says isn't without substance. The changes being made, contrary to what you like to post, arent about lining his pockets. They are about ensuring the survival of QF. If you cant see that, then you need to start taking your blinkers off, reading, and paying a little more attention to goings on in the world, which occur further out than the end of your nose.

Is he going to attack the rest of the unions. I'd say thats a given. For those who keep comparing the FAs to the Pilots remember this - QF FAs are among the best paid in the world; QF Tech Crew are among the cheapest. Is he going to try to make them even cheaper- of course. But there is a very big difference in comparative cost(to other airlines) between the two.

[argusmoon]

MMMMBOP
Firstly,do you and Dixon share a speech writer?
The $18million figure that is bandied around equates roughly to the cost of 2 engines on a 747.400 ER.You keep making assertions about Qantas Cabin Crew Wages.....Provide some figures and make some valid comparisons.Also the number of Crew on a Qantas Jumbo is less than any other airline,except for Air New Zealand.
While ever you talk vacuous unsustantiated nonsense you appear to be nothing more than one of the Qantas management trolls who inhabit these forums.The facts,the facts nothing but the facts.
Perhaps you should read your PMs from time to time.
Could tell us how much a Pacific Baron earns p.a ?There is a reason WHY they are called Pacific Barons!

[str]

"hear hear" Argus moon

[Gnadenburg]

MMMBOP

Before so quickly sticking it into to your colleagues, remember you will probably be fighting a battle yourself soon.

Would be real nice, having QF F/A's piping up and reciprocating some of the "support" noted on threads, when you ( AIPA ) are in the midst of fighting for your future prospects ( pay and promotion ).

I would be worried about your own upcoming battles considering QF pilots are by far the most expensive pilots based in Australia. And management probably consider the S/O group as unskilled and overpaid as the long haul F/A's-it would be cheaper to expand using experienced, already trained, ready to go, contract pilots and a shelf company, than the double training whammy of promoting current QF pilots.

There must be some spiteful divisions of the cockpit and cabin at QF, evidenced by the sentiments here.

[surfside6]

You would imagine that Qantas Pilots are a fairly cohesive bunch....nothing could be further fom the truth.....747.400 has knuckleheads,GA,Academy and the Barons all sniping at one another.One Captain in particular is proud of not having spoken to an S/O fro nine sectors.A somewhat dubious record one would think.Then there are the shorthaul(767.Airbus guys),the workhorses of the company who have been shafted by the elder statesmen of the AIPA.Last but not least the 747.300 guys who are an affable but diminshing group.Then lets not forget the socalled management pilots.An oxymoron if ever there was one.
MMMBOP comes to mind.(But only for a nanosecond)
All have different agendas and all slagging off at one another.No wonder the AIPA has lost its clout....no unity.It is Dixon`s intent to bring these guys to heel as well.The FAAA,the ASU and then AIPA.Shouldn`t be anymore than a skirmish really.

[rtforu]

Sorry guys and gals but I need to refer to something mentioned a little further back in this thread.

I'm curious about the term "Un Australian". It gets used so often. So what does it mean. Are we all angels? Do Australians do no wrong? I would really like to know the answer to this one.

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

A couple of points here.

If people consider S/O's overpaid, then let's do what most airlines do for Long Haul operations and have two Captains and two F/Os on a heavy crew, instead of one Captain, one F/O and two S/O's.

Pacific Barons make exactly the same money per hour as the most junior 744 Captains. Their pay differential is purely overtime. So I fail to see any point in bringing that up.

The '89 (the sky is falling, the sky is falling) brigade in here must take a chill pill. No union is going to make the mistakes made 15 years ago. Qantas is a large public company who cannot afford protected industrial action by any group, taken as part of an EBA. People seem to forget this. The fact that they are ramping up the pressure now should be an indication of how effective, targeted industrial action can be. It is the absolute last thing they want.

There seem to be people here who believe that the events of 1989 are a cast-iron blueprint for any subsequent industrial action, in fact, I seem to detect almost a yearning for another group to suffer the same fate as the 89'ers. It would seem to be almost a vindication for them.
It is as if they need another group to be as comprehensively shafted as they were in order to feel better about their own experience.

No-one is going to lose their jobs by taking protected industrial action.

Those who see Jetstar and Australian waiting in the wings to take over the in the wake of some industrial armageddon fail to realise the importance of the Qantas brand name.

Some of the tripe being written in this thread is beyond belief.... get a grip.

To any FA's reading this, you are not alone.

[Uncommon Sense]

UnAustralian.

Ha. It is a classic 'wedge' statement. Howard is notorious for them.

Its a 'if your not with us you are against us' strategy, as employed in Bushspeak.

It really does beg the question: what IS Australian?

Apparently, applauding our CEO's self-awarding of huge performance bonuses, built on the sweat of staff who have in good faith improved the productivity, whilst taking wage freezes, only to be rewarded by the goodwill of management training up strike breakers and wanting to casualise or place offshore their positions. THAT is being Australian John?

Sorry mate - that is America. And it is reaping the social problems it has created as the wealth gap becomes a canyon.

Hotdog - you are the one making this a political argument. As I have said all along, it is not about voting the ALP in, it is about voting the Lib/Nat's out. The majority of Australians did just that. The electoral system we have doesnt reflect that.

It seems to me that many of the dismissive comments about the FA are coming from junior pilots in Qantas who are casting them from a position of enjoying the conditions hard won by their predecessors in just such a situation. Will you be prepared to fight, and will you get support when it is your turn to be Dixoned? About time you realised you have to stick together - Dixon is counting on the type of division your ignorance is displaying on this forum - don't think they dont read it. They do. Best you talk to some of the tech crew who have been around longer than 15 years and see what they think.

[SydGirl]

Geoff Dixon is doing the job which he is employed to do. That is, to run a profitable company and produce a positive return for its shareholders. This means to cut costs in areas that can be run more profitably. I personally don't believe he lays awake at night scheming as to how he can lower the wages of the FAs.

FAs are trying to protect their current employment conditions and keep future employment open and available to Australians.

A lot of airlines in the global market are performing badly, or even facing bankruptcy. This has forced changes to industrial work practices in order for the airline to survive. QF posted a record profit this past year, and I fail to see how a record profit demonstrates that the airline is in trouble and struggling to survive.

Sure, GD wants to ensure QF maintains a long term profitability. The FAs are only the starting point for his plan to reduce labour costs. The next target will be the pilots. They too are replaceable by cheaper offshore labour. Be careful what you wish for.

SG
:}

[DirtyPierre]

I'm curious about the term "Un Australian". It gets used so often. So what does it mean. Are we all angels? Do Australians do no wrong? I would really like to know the answer to this one.

Someone who is un australian;

- doesn't have beetroot on their hamburger,
- doesn't follow AFL, NRL, Rugby, or cricket
- doesn't think Boonie is a legend
- doesn't sit in the front seat of the cab,
- thinks a Koala is actually a bear,
- doesn't like barbies and eats shrimps not prawns,
- thinks a thong is worn around your bum!

[Cornholio]

In other words, if you're not a Kingswood-driving, VB swilling, blue-collar, bogun yobbo you're un-Australian. Like most of our passengers thanks to VB and Jest-scar

Sorry but in recent decades it has become very Australian to target your industrial action for the time it will have the greatest effect. For airline staff, this is Christmas or, if they could wait a little longer, Easter. Not the first time it's happened.

[argusmoon]

C.O.B,I raised the question of Pacific Baron`s income as a comparative only.Many on PPrune keep going on about how well paid QF Longhaul CC are paid.As has been said numerous times elsewhere the floating of the A$ and the introduction of the bid system lead(lauded by the management of the time as an enormous coup) to CC receiving a reasonable income compared to the pittance it was prior to `88.I was attempting to draw a comparison between QF Pilots wages and other airline pilots in order to gain an intelligent informed response form MMMBOP.I mean no disrespect to Qantas Pilots.I doubt MMMBOP has too many neurons to play with...he is a bit like someone coming to a gun fight with a knife.

[surfside6]

Workers in the brewing industry were notorious,during the 60s and 70s,for going on strike during Christmas.....without warning.The clause in the current Qantas CC EBA expires on the 18th of December...protected action can be taken after that.This was QFs preferred date for expiration of the clause.This discussion has going on for almost 8 months ,the travelling public are well aware of what is going and are therefore able to make alternative arrangements.The industrial action is not going to be sprung on them.It will however have an impact on forward bookings and hence Rattys incentive bonus

[Cornholio]

Striking and beer... how much more Australian can you get???

[surfside6]

CORNHOLIO,
My Dear Boy
I knew if the denominator was low enough and common enough you would get the drift.

[Sunfish]

As I have said elsewhere, the reason Howard used the word "Un Australian" is because this battle, and future battles centres on wether Qantas is still "Australia's" Airline.

If Qantas loses the "I still call Australia Home" tagline then its brand is worthless. A large part of Qantas's value in this dangerous age, is associated with Qantas's image as a "Safe" airline. Picture bronzed anzacs carefully maintaining aircraft, Paul Hogan in every cockpit and luverly Australian flight attendants (of both sexes???).

The battle for flight attendants and others is to ensure that Qantas is no longer seen as Australia's airline if it does not give its employees a "fair go" Now a "fair go" is as Australian as you can get. So the first thing Howard has to do is brand FA's as Un Australian.

The obvious thing to do from my humble point of view, is to ask the question why basing xxx FA's in europe and hiring foriegners to work as cabin crew, putting AUstralians out of work, is Australian? However unless this is done immediately and loudly (which it hasn't) Howard's barb will stick. Expect to receive such barbs from the Government to be repeated weekly and faithfully reported in the Packer press.

Come on FA's, where is your communication strategy and PR plan? If there isn't one, you are just kangaroos sitting on the road and watching the headlights get nearer.

[rtforu]

Thanks DirtyPierre and others, I think I get it now. Come to think of it, I never was a great fan of Boonie or was it Boony, anyway whatever. I think I might be, dare I say, Un Australian!

[str]

Sunfish - just try getting a QF bashing letter in the press, they just won't print them.

The FAAA tried paid advertising in the major papers, they were refused!!!

Smart move on Dixons part, getting a Packer on the board.

[Uncommon Sense]

Indeed.

And just wait when the media cross ownership laws are relaxed.

But hey - thats democracy. Thats what 46% of Australians voted for after all.

[Austin - we won! Yay, capitalism!]

(Uncommon Sense comments brought to you by the Words: Moondah Brook, and, Verdhello - hic!)

[Sunfish]

I did'nt think about the press and Qantas advertising. but it is a powerful lever. OK FA's where is your website with all the goss for the media to lap up?

If you want examples of websites with an angle, go look at Groklaw.

Some of you have to be internet savvy enough to get your case out on the internet.

Furthermore, can you prove that newspapers will not print your letters or take your advertisements? If that is true, then that in itself in news (try the ABC) and it is also censorship, which is plainly un australian.

[OBNO]

STR- If the media has really refused to print your advertisements, why not try "Media Watch" they seem to love sticking the knife in.

[fire wall]

There is no need to strike over the christmas period and while the FA union continue to threaten such then the public will wash their hands of them. Were the FA union to announce to the public that they respect that families need to be together over this time and that QF serves an important service in that regard and as a result they will delay industrial action till after the XMAS period then you will win a major PR battle ........ and have me backing you as well. Some may say that such delay will do less damage to the QF bottom line and so they will be less likely to negotiate......wrong....... the damage needs to be done to the "image"....... dollars are an immediate reaction but perception is "everlasting"......well, maybe a bit melodramatic a word but I hope you get my drift.
As to the pilots, remember "a rising tide raises all ships"......... there is no doubt in mind that you are in Dixon's sights again (or have we forgotten Australian Airlines and Jetstar already).

ps Angle of Attack.....take a good look at what an EK Captain earns in AUD terms before taking the leap.....might change your mind.

another thought if I could, I am sure the gentleman who is the head of your union is a good leader,smart,etc etc.....but he has no media presence.....get him off the box and get a spokeswoman who can think on her feet, blonde and attractive with an ability to hold peoples attention. This will then play against the nasty Mr Dixon attacking this image of an Australian Beach girl....powerful media stuff. I am sure some of you FA's will object to this and I agree it does have a shady side but if you think it a media ploy of folly then you have not studied the Virgin Blue advertisments....Bransons PR machine leaves yours for dead....learn from it. That brings to mind another question....where is your PR machine/media advice comming from because most still seem to see this as a battle over wages ( perusal this site is enough to convince anyone that the perception is out there).....you have got to move the arguement in the publics eyes to the exportation of Australian jobs.....specifically this little blonde demur Australian girls job.....queue Aussie girl in QF uniform. Good Luck but no PR = death.