When will Pilots put a stop to Cheap Maintenance

[JAFCon]

When will Pilots put a STOP to CHEAP Maintenance?

It seems more and more Airlines are shipping out their Maintenance, not for better Maintenance but for Cheaper Maintenance, it seems the Quality doesen't matter just the cost !!!! If its cheap, the bean counters think its better. More and More the maintenance of YOUR AIRCRAFT and YOUR SAFETY is going to the Cheapest Bidder.

It seems that a well Known Charter Airline is soon going down this route, rumour has it that its going to Dublin and its own in house Heavy Maintenace is being got rid of because its Cheaper, not only is its Heavy Maintenance going but so is its Line Maintenance.

[we_never_change]

Just because it's cheaper, it doesn't ALWAYS mean that the work will be of a lower standard or people will cut corners. As for Dublin, I presume you are referring to FLS, a well known company who does work for a lot of well known airlines.

WNC

[JAFCon]

I agree CHEAPER doesn't ALWAYS mean its to a Lesser Standard or of Less Quality, but you can only cut COSTS so FAR before you start cutting CORNERS.

And if your Maintenance is being done by someone at a SET COST they WONT do Maintenance on things that they arn't Tasked to do, even if something is wrong.

I've been there and been told by a Manager "Your not supposed to be looking at that, we're not beng paid to look at that"

[Thunderball 2]

There is an interesting debate to be had around the subject of outsourcing maintenance and low-cost providers, but for me the frame of reference that been established here - with the greatest respect - just can't begin to match the complexity of this issue, and is almost offensive to those involved.

JAFcon, you're way off beam old buddy. It's absurd to assert that airline management are only concerned about the cost, and not the quality of maintenance. You simply can't afford poor maintenance, in my experience. But I've seen outstanding work done in Bucharest for 25% of the manhour rate at which mediocre work has been done in the UK.

As for the implication about the standard of work one might expect in Dublin, words fail me...other than to say that I believe they now have electricity over there, and I have heard that they expect to be able to do a "D Check" on a Constellation by the end of the decade.
(PS They've also gained independence from the homeland).

[matkat]

Maybe the meaning is about the personnel,I have been in Maintenance for 28 years and it appears to me to cut down maintenance costing it is in reality a cut in Manpower,recently I have been involved in costing some checks and I can tell you that it costs me more per hour to service my car than it does for a widebody aircraft,we have far to many maintenance outfits chasing to few checks,the lowest rate for Manpower I have come across is $81.5 per hour and this was in a highly respected global maintenance provider who after taking their fees there is precious little left for the people.As for FLS I feel I can comment on them,I know for SURE that they pulled out of a bidding war with a now known South coast maintenance provider as they could not compete on the low rates that Their competitor was offering.This now leads to another problem in that the industry used to be well paid but now We are having great difficulty in recruiting young People in as quiete frankly for the work we are expected to do in all weathers treated like s$it and given zero recognition it is just not worth it,I personally left the "hands on" side of maintenance several years ago and am now involved in engineering and technical services,I studied and worked for years to get to where I did get(licensed certifying staff B747)but more or less left it overnight to be office based(some who know me might say that was a good thing!)and to be perfectly honest I do not miss the "line"in the slightest.
matkat

[Flying Mech]

Jaf con

This "well known charter Airline" you talk about; What A/C types do they fly and where are they registered?
Also if you want "cheap" maintenance there are a many Heavy maintenance sweatshops in the middle east, Far East and Asia who are good with a pen and at cleaning,painting & polishing A/C for a hell of a lot less money than FLS would charge you but the paperwork will still be the same.
Its just like the old saying- "Pay peanuts, Get Monkeys!" :ok:

[ukeng]

But I've seen outstanding work done in Bucharest for 25% of the manhour rate at which mediocre work has been done in the UK

Maybe you have! Tis a bit hard for a beancounter to see an "outstanding" piece of work though when it's all supposed to be done to the same standard.
IMO the Uk is heading for a fall, everything is being outsourced at the moment including our call centres which believe it or not help the economy enourmously.
When all of us are eventually replaced by someone earning $2 a day the Uk economy will collapse and all the people getting rich off the back of it will suffer.
The cull has started on the engineering, flight crew and cabin crew in this country already - lets face it we are all bound to be replaced by people from countries with a much lower cost of living.

For what it's worth my local ford dealer charges £90 an hour labour now :eek:

[JAFCon]

Perhaps I should have put the two Topics in as separate rumours, as it was not my intent to indicate that in Dublin the Maintenance is of a lower standard than elsewhere.

But I will say that too many Airlines are only looking at the cost of the Maintenance and that the cost must be lower and the Organisation that puts in the lower cost will win the contract.

We the Engineering Maintenance Facility where I work have been told we must reduce our cost and if we dont the Company that puts in a bid lower than ours will win the Contract to Maintain the Aircraft, this is a desision that will purely be based on cost.

I belive that too many organisations are "ONLY LOOKING AT THE COST OF MAINTENANCE WITH NO CONCERN TO THE QUALITY OF THE MAINTENACE" and I also belive that at some point in the near future an Aircraft will be involved in a incident and the primary cause will be down to a Maintenance Error of which one of the main causes will be due to the Poor Quality of that Maintenance due to cost savings.

[swedish]

Cheaper for the company does not mean cheaper man hour rates. Another ' well known UK Charter Airline' recently took engineering in-house and was applauded in try to increase quality - ask the engineers on the ground how much they lost in pay by moving from the out-source company to the airline.
Often the costs are lower by using the manp power, equipment and hanger space throu the whole year, and not just in the UK winter.

[JAFCon]

Flying Mech

With referance to your question

This "well known charter Airline" you talk about; What A/C types do they fly and where are they registered?

I'm not ignoring you it is just that at present I dont wish to say to much as the Company I work for might not appreciate me naming it and I might have to have a chat with "Members of the Management and I wont be getting a Cup of Coffee"

[Boss Raptor]

When MRO's with full EASA/JAR approvals (for many years before) in the new EU Eastern European states are in the market and coming in at sub $50 per man hour there are very clear savings - those carriers who use these facilities are also carrying out their own QA assessments and of course have a rep/reps in attendance at all times during the input to ensure everything is as per their own maintenance/quality manual/exposition...with UK MRO's trying to get £56 per man hour plus it is hardly surprising carriers are looking elsewhere

Facility/quality is the same (if not better), productivity is same or better and approvals are the same...welcome to the real world of the EU (hardly the same as outsourcing call centres to India)

Now going to USA or further afield like Costa Rica/Brasil could be seen as a different matter...but there are MRO's there with full JAR approvals...like it or lump it they are here to stay

And as stated above productivity and man hour rate are two totally different things...productivity being the guiding factor and that depends both on the MRO, competency of staff etc. and also pre-check planning and check supervision by the operator themselves...

...and since when has it been anything to do with pilots!?...have/got a qualified/quantified beef about maintenance standards take it up with yr Technical Director and QA Manager both named post holders :cool:

[JAFCon]

If Companys keep out soucing their Maintenance, Whos going to do the Ad-Hoc Engine Changes? if all the Maintenace Facilitys are in Ireland or Eastern Europe Where will you do the Engine Change?

If no one has any Hangers where are you going to do your A-Checks? Outside?

What will happen if Boeing or Airbus bring out a Alert Service Bulletin that must be done within one week or before next Flight if all the Maintenace is Outsourced you wont get your whole Fleet done as quickly as you would like.

I dont belive Cheap Maintenance is the Answer.

[Boss Raptor]

Provision of heavy maintenance visits possibly at a distant MRO and line/base maintenance provision - i.e. A's, B's (&generic MSG 3 or operator derived equivalent), ASB's and engine changes - are two separate issues and and can be considered integral or separate issues/cost bases depending on airline's choice of direction.

As I recall UK CAA for example requires definative provision/arrangement and contract for both as do the BAA with regard to incident mx. support so as they dont get an acft blocking a runway/taxiway/stand etc.

[mary_hinge]

Some interesting rates being posted here and I wonder if things really are a like for like comparison. Matkat refers to a rate of $81.5 but is this $81.5 USD: Boss Raptor mentions UK MROs trying to get £56 per man-hour but is this for a line mechanic routine day shift, or type rated CRS on a Sunday night?

The very few remaining independent MROs within the UK, (ATC Lasham, Marshall Aerospace and BASCO) would I imagine be grateful of any thing above £40 pmh, but with the level JAR playing field having a nice tilt towards the South and East of the United States of Europe I think the chances of this are getting slimmer.

[Boss Raptor]

£56 pmh on B757 heavy check (but good quality and productivity unlike some of the other demanding these levels) - UK independant MRO - and good luck to them they are getting it - would be undiplomatic if I said more as they are good colleagues - however they are well aware that their business is in the newer types i.e. 737NG, 757, 767 which they are doing in large numbers and the heavy man hour checks on the older 'classics' B727, B737-200/300 family are drifting to the East and the lower labour rates as the post 15 year CPCP, AD's, Aging make up 80% of the manhours and non routines - the market has always been like this if you go back an aircraft generation (or two) i.e. the 70's DC6's vs BAC1-11 etc. older went to the lesser labour rate abroad - nothing new here except the marked seperation of line/base and heavy mx. disciplines/facilities by the airlines

[matkat]

Mary_hinge it was indeed $US,sorry for not making that clear.

[JAFCon]

Boss Raptor

With referance

...and since when has it been anything to do with pilots!?...have/got a qualified/quantified beef about maintenance standards take it up with yr Technical Director

I think its got everything to do with pilots if the Aircraft they fly are maintained to a standerd lower than what they are used to, as a car driver I would much rather take my car to a garage that I trust and get all those extra things done than to a garage thats cheaper and only does the minimum that it has to to keep within the servicing schedule.

And how can I go to the Technical Director and say I dont think his idea of putting the Aircraft out for Cheaper Maintenace is a very good idea, Well I could I suppose if I dont mind him giving me my P45!!!!!!

[Thunderball 2]

JAFcon

It's just not that simple - believe me. Proactive and sophisticated management by the carrier/lessor of the maintenance provider can be every bit as important as the competence of the provider themselves, irrespective of the quality of the records.

And as I sauid way back, I've had lousy maintenance undertaken by organisations who you would no doubt trust implicitly.

[MercenaryAli]

Don't worry ! Soon all these things will be completed in SE Asia or the Indian sub continent. Hey when I talk to "my bank" I find I am talking to someone in Hyderabad or Delhi who doesn't even know how to spell Barklees!! But it will be great, because all the jops will be outsourced to "cheapie" countries and I can have the rest of my life off and live off the ample hand outs that I understand this sorry excuse for a Labour Government is perfectly happy to donate to the poor and needy!! What? you mean I can't have any because I am a white anglo saxon male without a speech impediment! That does not seem fair to me? . . . .