Cheap UK wet hire rates

[Just another student]

I am trying to find the cheapest hire rates for either a C152/PA28 (in the Midlands) so I can build around 100hrs of UK experience. The cheapest PA28 I have found is 78 p/h wet. However when offset against living away from home costs, the saving against my local club is not that great. Is 96 p/h wet for a PA28 Warrior, or 86.50 p/h for a C152 that bad? On those rates I could stay at home and have greater flexibililty. Apart from doing the obvious (searching private ads etc) is there anywhere else I can look?

Cheers :D

[Genghis the Engineer]

Let's say you can find £70/hr, that's £7k for your 100 hrs.

Buy a PFA single seater (such as this one (http://www.cfors.co.uk/afors/index.php?page=view&adid=564&si=41754b716bdf4&PHPSESSID=c39af5eae0490cbd6abc9e6aa2354634&PHPSESSID=c39af5eae0490cbd6abc9e6aa2354634) for example) for under £3k. Then fly 100 hrs in it at an all-in cost of about £25/hr, you're at-least £1500 better off AND you still own an aeroplane. Plus you've learned huge amounts in looking after it that you wouldn't otherwise - after all the 100hrs is a learning exercise as much as a box-ticking one.

G

[Charlie Zulu]

If I were looking to build the hundred hours or so for the CPL course then I would probably, now in hindsight, go the PFA route as Genghis the Engineer describes above.

You're also not limited to single seaters... indeed nice aircraft such as the Jodel are two seaters on the PFA thus you can take your family and friends flying as well.

The one thing to note though is PFA aircraft are limited to Day-VFR only. But how often does one need anything else?

Another option is to go abroad and fly the hundred hours in three to four weeks. Stateside, South Africa, Australia, Canada are all popular choices.

All the best.

Charlie Zulu.

[Just another student]

Thanks for the reply. I know very little about operating/buying an aircraft. Surly its not as easy as all that? Could anybody fill me in with more details? I doubt I could afford this option as I would ideally like something with a half decent avionics suite.

I have looked into flying abroad a fair bit. I completed my PPL at NAC and enjoyed my US flying. However I am lacking real european experience. I may yet fly another 50hrs out there (california etc), but I need some UK time in my log book first.

Sorry if I sound dumb, but what does PFA mean?

Cheers

JAS

[Guern]

Hi

PFA stands for Popular Flying Association.

Find out more here:

http://www.pfa.org.uk/

[foxmoth]

I would ideally like something with a half decent avionics suite.

When I was trying for my licence it was not so much what I would like as what I could afford. I think if you go for the more basic option you will actually learn a lot more than you expect about basic flying.
I have noticed that a lot of guys now are not interested in working their way up but seem to expect to learn on fully equipped aircraft and then go straight into the RH seat of a big shiny Jet:hmm:

[Just another student]

When I say half decent, I mean vor, adf, dme and transponder. I want to be able to practice basic instrument flying using my IMC rating that's all. I have no visions of big shiny jets, I worked hard for my IMC, now I would like to be able to use it if possible, that's all.If I can keep my very basic skills in practice, it may well help me start off an IR later on. :D What kind of avionics do these type of aircraft generally have?

Cheers

[QNH 1013]

"What sort of avionics do these aircraft usually have?

A battery-powered radio and,..... nothing else.

Don't expect a DI, or AI, some will have a turn-and-slip, others just a balance ball.

All will have a rev counter, an ASI, an altimeter, and probably an engine temp gauge + oil pressure if a 4-stroke engine.

Navigation is by watch and (mag) compass. You will find this of real value during your IR test when you come to the limited-panel stuff.

Joining a group with a PFA aircraft is even cheaper. Before I joined a PFA group my flying was limited by what I could afford. After joining, it has been limited by what time I have available to go flying. I have now flown over 350 hours in a group aircraft which is a two-seater at an average cost of less than £25 per hour (take-off to landing, NOT brakes-off to brakes-on like a hired aircraft). The only additional cost is £37 per month to cover insurance, hangarage, permit renewal, etc.

[Genghis the Engineer]

PFA = Popular Flying Association, they are the main organisation looking after light aircraft on Permits to Fly.

Permit-to-Fly = a sub-ICAO document used in the UK to allow some aeroplanes to fly. All microlights, amateur-built aeroplanes, some vintage aeroplanes and virtually all warbirds are on a PtF instead of the better known CofA. That's over 5000 flying machines, although not all will suit your purposes.

For the present purpose a PtF offers only one real disadvantage, you are resitricted to day VMC. This doesn't mean that you can't use a good GPS with the toys inbuilt and fly simulated instrument approaches to your hearts content, just that you must do so in VMC.

If you want to operate a PtF aeroplane, assuming in this case a PFA one, you need...

(1) A PPL
(2) To join the PFA (about £50pa)
(3) To buy an aeroplane
(4) To register it in your name (about £45 I think).

And that's it. You are then owner, maintainer, carer and financial manager. You need a permit revalidation inspection and check flight once per year (cost probably £200-300 all in) and obviously a strip or airfield to keep it at, and a "grown-up" to properly brief you on the aeroplane. But it really is that simple.

If you want to fit extra instruments, you can do it yourself with the aid of some fairly straightforward paperwork via PFA Engineering at Turweston and co-operation of your local inspector (there are about 200 around the country so you're unlikely to struggle there).

What obviously isn't that simple is that you will start on a steep learning curve on how to look after an aeroplane, how to fly from strips with no ATC support, how to clean an aeroplane, how to look after aircraft paperwork - and many other things that arguably more than compensate for the lack of ability to fly IMC.

But, and you are welcome to take my word for this (I fly permit and CofA aeroplanes all the time) you'll have far far more fun out of your learning than hiring a club aeroplane.

The rough economics of it by the way, let's say you do 100hrs in a year:-

£12/hr in fuel and oil = £1200
Permit revalidation ~ £300
Probably around £80/yr for a club membership somewhere.
About £200 in inevitable parts
About £40/month tie-down at a strip
About £80pa for 3rd party insurance.
Another £100 for whatever I've forgotten

= £2000, or £20/hr (Probably slightly optimistic, I'm currently paying about £23/hr for a similar aeroplane, although that's in a syndicate so includes full hull insurance and a hefty engine fund, but is based upon about 150hrs pa between us - about 1/3rd of which I end up flying :D).

G

[Just another student]

Thanks for all the responses. Regarding the PFA etc it certainly sounds like 'real' flying! How much VMC time is there likely to be over the next two, three, four months or so though? Say I were to go out and purchase a plane, am I not limiting myself by only being able to fly VMC? Money is of course a major issue, but finding a balance between cheap and whats practical is important. On the other hand that 'type' of flying would do me a world of good I dare say.

This avaition training thing is a funny old business :)

[sycamore]

JAS, don`t want to rain on your parade, but, you are going to have to come to terms with flying in the UK/Europe that will be a lot different from the USA, even in VMC/VFR. An IMC ticket is there as a `get-out-of -jail` should you get caught out, and if you want to practice IFR/IMC, then you should only do it with an instructor, and preferably in a radar environment .
At this time of year, you would be well advised to avoid IMC,unless you have a full IR, and an aircraft which is cleared with full de-icing.
So, to gain valuable exp., follow the advice from GtE, and others,get time on a Sim. to practice the procedural, and hood-time with an instructor.......:ok:

[Just another student]

That is a fair point well put sycamore. My pre IMC hours and the course itself were my first real taste of UK airspace. When I was flying IMC I never left class D, I would never intentionally fly in IMC. However I would ideally like to practice instrument let downs etc in VMC. Even in May the icing conditions were apparent, something I had not experienced before.

I don't want to try and run before I can walk, but I do want to gain experience and be a better pilot after these hrs.

Cheers

[Genghis the Engineer]

Travelling around in a single seater, in UK airspace, in winter - you will be :D

G

[Just another student]

I have had a brief look around but can not find many shares etc in these types of aircraft available. Which models should I be looking at and what are the rough price guidlines?

Cheers

[Genghis the Engineer]

Choice is going to be limited at that end of the price range, but I'd suggest looking at:-

- Whittaker MW7
- Rand KR2
- Evans VP1
- Jodel DR9 (and a few close relatives)

I'm sure that there are some oddballs around that are less well known but may serve you as well. Plus some more expensive types that would be worth sharing with a couple of other people in the same position.

G

[QNH 1013]

When looking for a share in an aircraft you will probably have more success by visiting as many clubs as there are within your area (1-hour drive?) and look at the notice board. Our group has never advertised shares other than on the local notice board. We have never had to resort to an advert in a magazine. Ball park figures for shares would be £1000 - £2000 for a single seater and £2500 upwards for a share in a two seater with a roof. Subject to aircraft type and number of people in the group.

Genghis, could you send me a PM with your insurance company details? My company quotes at least £200 3rd party on my single-seater. What am I doing wrong?

[Just another student]

Thanks for all the information. Plenty of food for thought.

Cheers

JAS

[big.al]

Pheonix Flying School at Netherthorpe rent out their C150s for £62 per hour wet. They may well offer a block booking discount, so if you'd prefer to stay with the rental route rather than ownership you would probably be hard pushed to find much cheaper than that.

[Genghis the Engineer]

To be fair, speed has a lot to do with that. I will accept a much poorer visibility and cloudbase if I'm flying in an aeroplane that cruises at 60kn and stalls at 30kn than I would in an aeroplane that cruises at 110 kn and stalls at 50.

G