DHL rejects Belgian demand for less noisy planes (Merged)

[coopervane]

Check out this link:

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/09/22/belgium.flights.ap/index.html

Coop & Bear

[Flip Flop Flyer]

Quote:

Neighborhood committees around Zaventem international airport on the northern edge of Brussels claim the noise from more night flights would balloon the state's medical bill by euro250 million (US$304 million) annually and lead to hundreds of deaths through depression and heart disease.

Unquote.

Hundreds of deads through depression? And heart disease? Yes, quite. And pigs really can fly too!

Back to reality.

DHL will establish a superhub in LEJ; that is not even a "if". Vatry is a smokecover. DHL is owned by a German company. The German government will go to great lenghts to create more jobs in the east. The EU will offer support for development in Eastern Germany under the developing regions programme. The German government will foot the bill for a second runway in LEJ (with EU support of course), as well as road and rail links. It is even rumoured that the German government will pay the re-location costs. It is as close to a no-brainer as possible.

The question is whether BRU will remain as the DHL headquaters, and whether BRU or CGN hub will be either closed or scaled down. LEJ will be conviently placed for the biggest potential growth market in Europe, namely the new EU countries. BRU and CGN are only 200 km apart, and with a true superhub in continental Europe, both will not be needed to cover for each other in times of operational difficulty (i.e. when the BRU workers go on strike).

My guess is, that if the Belgian government don't send a positive answer right soon, DHL is gone. However, if DHL management goes on record saying something like "political decisions have made future expansion impossible and we are therefore forced to review or options" then all hell breaks loose with the unions and strikes are inevitable. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Someday they'll have to take the figth, my guess is that they'll hold it off as long as possible and ideally (from their point of view) not before LEJ has opened.

I would not be surprised if, back in the post tower in Bonn, there is a project going under the title of "LEJ 2010".

By the way, DHL and UPS have a commitment from CGN airport that no night curfews will be introduced before 2015. See the picture?

[JW411]

Flip Flop Flyer:

I haven't been to LEJ for a while but I could swear that it already had 2 runways.

I seem to remember that 28 is the old one and 26 is the new one.

[Flip Flop Flyer]

Could it be that the "old" one needs refurbishment or extension or something? Seem to me I've read somewhere that a "new" runway was required.

[RampTramp]

FFF,

Wouldn't put all your money on LEJ! Just because your German is better than your French, don't go wishful thinking.

RT


tsk tsk

[Flip Flop Flyer]

Aber, Ich bin ein Leipziger :E

Honestly, just brown nosing the Doctorate over im Post Turm. You do know we're bugged, right? ;)

[tgdxb]

I'd like to get the opinion of the flying guys.

I am living in a suburb of Brussels which is overflown by DHL at night and I'll tell ya, this is a p... in the a.. You wouldn't want to live here. I came here before them BTW. Plus, all the experts say it is damned crazy and insane to let planes take off from runway 20. It looks like they all need an air crash on this densely populated area before they start thinking. Just can't understand how the flying crews can accept ATC instructions forcing them to use this rwy.

ps. I wanted to be one of you but life decided otherwise. So I am taking any professional opportunity to be involved with aviation.

[neil armstrong]

I have used Runway 20 a lot over the years ,so i must be crazy!!
Cant see whats wrong with the runway ,but experts are never wrong!!!!

All i can say is ,Leipzig here we come!

Neil

[tgdxb]

you have my full support, go to Leipzig!
I don't want DHL in Brussels anymore, especially with their old and noisy acft.

[Daysleeper]

Yup we'll take our 18000 jobs and the billion euros a year every year we will be putting into the Belgian economy by 2012 and nob off to Leipzig. I'm sure the german chancelor will find a use for the 200 million or so euros we pay in tax each year.

Perhaps the Pain in your A*** could be cured by one of the many hospital beds funded out of the tax we pay. Or alternatively you could drive out to a leisure centre on one of the well lit motorways paid for out of the tax we pay.
Take a walk in one of Brussels many parks paid for ....wait for it, by the tax we and other companies and individuals pay. Life is a balance. If you want ammenities and the jobs, schools , roads, sewers that modern living demands then you have got to make sacrifices.
Tough call?
I dont think so.
We have spent well over a billion euros buying newer quieter aircraft over the last 3 years mainly to satisfy BRU residents. Now due to political infighting in the Belgian govt you want more. Get a grip. Aircraft noise overall in the industry is down something like 75% in the last 20 years as older types are phased out. We are meeting our side of the bargin.

[tgdxb]

I just can't repeat enough, pls do go to Leipzig.
If you are writing from UK Midlands, you don't understand the situation on the ground. Just as an example, the part of BRU I am living in is ONLY getting the trouble of your night flights, not even a... single... job.
On another of your points, you claim using less noisy acft? Well, DHL required 16 mvts for the MD-11, which is up 500% and this is one of the noisiest acft flying today. And I'll tell you - at night (4AM) every acft is noisy. Just come and experience by yourself.
I'll stop here but pls do not hesitate to go to Lepizig. At least we'll be able to enjoy our nights and the greenery not spoiled by taking off acft.

[Daysleeper]

ONLY getting the trouble of your night flights, not even a... single... job

OH right so none of your neighbours is in any way connected to the airport. None of them run car dealerships or are doctors or work in shops or banks. Because by employing thousands of staff they then have money to spend which support thousands of other jobs. Take away the principle employer and the supported jobs go as well.

As for your posts on Airports and routes
DHL have been at BRU for over 15 years. When i started 6 years ago we were using 20 at night for take offs. Since then we have phased out the 727 which is a very very noisy aeroplane . We have reduced the number of A300 movements by 15%. The only reason the MD-11 is
one of the noisiest acft flying today
is because we have removed older aircraft. As it is it has a slightly lower noise levels than the A300 according to NASA figures.
Even then noise levels are likely to come down by a further 40% over the next 15 years throughout Europe as older marginaly stage 3 aircraft (thats the A300-B4 to you) and hushkitted types reach the end of their service life and are replaced by more modern aircraft.

You really should not listen to everything politicians tell you.

[Rwy in Sight]

I am all with Daysleeper on that and some more. DHL creates much needed jobs for Brussels Region Capital and the Flemish Region.

tgdxb Daysleeper is right in regards to jobs creating jobs. Maybe you would love European Institutions to flee Brussels as to get rid of the traffic and the trouble they give you.

I would seriously suggest the residents that are annoyed about the operation to spent some time realizing how important is this operation for the two regions, how it keeps a lot of people out of the dole... Furthermore instead of spending euros on buying Stella I would recommend try put some soundproofing in your home.

I wish we have a DHL or UPS European hub in our large and empty local airport....

Rwy in Sight
I love aircraft noise

[neil armstrong]

and this is one of the noisiest acft flying today
OK what aircraft would you like us to replace it with!!
There are not many a/c on the market at the moment who can carry the same cargo as this a/c!
The 747-400 can ,but makes more noise!
But dont worry tgdxb ,Vlaanderen has been suporting the Wallonië economy for years ,and yall dont have to worry the way the goverment works the money will keep on comming your way!!

Neil:cool:

[tgdxb]

in my view quite a few mistakes & misunderstandings in the different postings:
- DHL is veyr much Flemish oriented. Therefore I would say, those benefitting most from it should bear the annoyance.
- Why not go to Leipzig? I am sure the very ecological German gvt will welcome it.
- I do not think we need DHL at Brussels airport
- We do not need the sort of jobs offered by DHL are good for the quality of family life of its (night shift) employees
- I have been living here for 18 years and I have not been suffering from DHL's night flights before. So something must have changed.

I could go forever but would simply add: thks for your open comments which is why I value such a forum. It is clear however that those dependent on DHL for a living could not agree with me.
But look at what the large European airports do and you will see that Brussels is not doing it the right way, at least not when you are so close to the city.

[Rwy in Sight]

But look at what the large European airports do and you will see that Brussels is not doing it the right way, at least not when you are so close to the city.

Maybe a large airport needs a large serious airline to be based there....

Rwy in Sight

[RampTramp]

tgdxb,

Just to respond to your comments in order to give a balance -

'- DHL is veyr much Flemish oriented.'
The company is based in a Flemish commune & is no more language orientated that any other company in Flanders or Walonia.

'- Why not go to Leipzig? I am sure the very ecological German gvt will welcome it.'
Actually they do as they see the employment potential.

'- I do not think we need DHL at Brussels airport'
Maybe you don't but the 2000 direct and up to 5000 indirect jobholders might disagree with you. Don't forget that DHL pays for the facilities at BRU as does any other operator and if their contributions were withdrawn, then the airport would, to a certain extent, stagnate, thereby reducing the service levels for all other operators and passengers. The other alternative would be to raise fees and make flying even more expensive when you want to go on holiday.

'- We do not need the sort of jobs offered by DHL are good for the quality of family life of its (night shift) employees'
Actually, a lot of the employees like working night shift and do it through choice.

'- I have been living here for 18 years and I have not been suffering from DHL's night flights before. So something must have changed.'
As has been quoted in earlier posts, DHL has spent a lot of money in replacing it's fleet with quieter aircraft. The only thing that has changed are the government imposed departure procedures.

RT

[red_on_yello]

tgdxb,

you made it very clear by your comments that you are
one of the French speaking persons who don't give a d*mn about the 3000+ Flemish jobs at stake.
I hope you never get your job robbed by an intolerant person !!


I have lived close to the Airport (5km and under 25r take-off path) for 28 years, never woke up once !!!
I now live close to a railroad, where i couldn't sleep the first 3 weeks, then got used to it ....and sleep like a baby now :)

Do you think I should have started a protest ???
Or stood on the tracks when the freight trains pass at night ???

People want everything: a villa, two cars, two kids and - of course - two jobs to pay for all of this !
This means their stressed out of their mind with loans, work, traffic jams, getting kids to school...that's the reason why people are irritated and why they lay awake worried at night .
Some of them like to blame the night flights for their problem

But people like you complain about everything:

Airplanes, motorways, trains, bars, ambulances, other people
sitting in their garden talking on a summer night....
Just buy any Belgian newspaper and you'll find examples of the above ..daily !!

There are still places in Belgium where it's green and there's no noise, BUT it takes you 2 hours to get to work or 1 hour to get to the nearest shop......YOU CAN'T HAVE IT ALL MATE !!!

PEOPLE SHOULD BECOME LESS INTOLERANT,
THEN WE CAN ALL KEEP OUR JOBS AND LIVE IN PEACE :-)

'- I do not think we need DHL at Brussels airport'
Did you know that 50% of the cargo revenue and 50%
of BIAC's profit is generated by DHL, so DHL is actually
-indirectly - paying for the brand new A-pier that was built.
DHL has been paying high landing taxes on nightflts,
money that was supposed to go to a isolation fund....
what the f*ck happened with those millions ????????

BRU DOES NEED DHL, or do you think small companies like SNBrussels and Virgin our going to save the airport ???

If people like you get their way, you should also be able to live with the fact that you'll have to catch a train or drive up to CGN, AMS or CDG to get on a aircraft, cause BRU airport doesn't stand a chance to survive the competion with these airports, NOT without a major cargo operator paying half the airport's operation

'- I have been living here for 18 years and I have not been suffering from DHL's night flights before. So something must have changed.'

Yes, they have been spread around by polliticians who know nottting about aviation !! They don't take in account winds, destination....just a mathematical spreading

This hasen't solved anything, things only got worse,
we used to have 200 people in one place complaining,
NOW we have 10 people each complaining in 20 places :-)

[tgdxb]

red-on-yello,
you told it, politicians! And this is all my point. Before the politicians got involved 20 was not used, at least not as far as I can remember. And I have been here for 18 years.
I gladly accepted the noise of landing a/c because I knew it and it was my responsible decision. Night T.O. are not, nor 20 usage.
I am sad to say but BRU lost its window of opportunity. Can you believe what this airport is sitting at the core of Europe? Now dependent on cargo & charter traffic, i.e. all the worst traffic one can expect. And this only 8 km off Brussels Market Square?!
I believe the solution is, build a new one. Jacques Delors' solution to European unemployment was major construction works... linked to transportation. Just check out Dubai.
ps. I am not complaining about motorways (I live less than 1 mile from one) nor train nor noisy neighbours because it is not continuous. Just take an example: we get T.O. on Sundays SYSTEMATICALLY between 5:12 & 17:00. One morning I counted 20 T.O. between 6:45 and 7:45. This is supposed on one of these days we are supposed to rest.
I repeat, BRU is the wrong place to set it up this way.
One last one - as a french speaking person I was denied a job at SN because there were not enough Flemish speaking employees. Well, now would be the time to open up employment for French speaking people at BRU. This would be a fair position rather than imposing additional noise on people who are only bearing the annoyance with no compensations. I wanted to leave here but my real estate has lost 20% of its value, as nobody wants to come & live here.

[Flip Flop Flyer]

Let me see if I get this right: You're backing down from your claims that 20 is dangerous for take-offs. You'd still rather 25R is used, as that will disturb someone else than you. You'd like DHL to go away, and BRU to be closed, unless someone gives you a job that is. You claim that BRU airport and DHL has never done anything for you, in the process neglecting the billions of Euro's DHL has pumped into the Belgian economy over the years. You couldn't give a toss if several thousand of your country men lost their jobs, 'cause they speak a different language. You claim that the MD-11 is overtly noisy, but how you reached that conclusion is not clear. Pray tell, do you run out of your house in the middle of the night, and can you honestly tell me that you can spot the darkened out aeroplane going overhead as a MD-11 vs anything else? Me thinks you're being spoon fed a hatred towards the MD by ignorant politicians, and that's what got you on your soapbox.

Honestly, you are the living proof that Belgium is not a real country but rather a political decision, and a bad one at that. Noone seems interested in the common good, only what will benefit them personally. For this reason, I suppose, the place is infested with enough publicly elected officials to populate several regular democracies, that that's without counting the EU-crats. And each and every politician are seeking their own, locally driven, agenda to the general detriment of the country as such. So presently we've got the Federal government battling it out with the Flemmish and Wallon ditto, and with the local Brussels government thrown in for good measure, who's got some sort of veto right y the way, over the future of several thousand jobs in a "country" where unemployment is already a problem. The Flemmish seems to be non-plussed about DHL and the Brussels government want them out. The Wallon's would like them to stay, but only if they move to their part of the "country". The Federal government is caught somewhere in between all this, flapping in the political breeze. The unions, in the best of Belgian tradition, is talking strikes. True Belgian logic; your employeer is being forced to think about moving abroad because political infighting puts their future in jeopardy, so in response let's tell our employeer we really understand them - by going on strike! It's a mess. And if DHL leaves, hundreds of other jobs in the airport is also in jeopardy as DHL is also the largest cargo costumer here. But all that's irrelevant to you, 'cause you do not personally benefit from any of it, so screw the Flemmish.

Frankly, you don't deserve DHL to be resident here.

PS
I've been living for around 3 years in Zaventem and sleep splendidly at night - and always with an open window. Aircraft don't make noise - it's the sound of freedom.

[747FOCAL]

DHL rejects Belgian demand for less noisy planes
Reuters English News Service 10/19/04
(C) Reuters Limited 2004.

BRUSSELS, Oct 19 (Reuters) - Global courier DHL's [DHL.UL] stand-off with Belgium again came to a head on Tuesday when it rejected a government request to curb the use of noisy planes as part of its plans to expand at Brussels airport.

DHL's plans to increase flights at Brussels' Zaventem airport hit a roadblock this month when squabbling national and regional governments closed ranks to demand that the company reduce the use of noisy intercontinental planes.

But DHL insisted on Tuesday it needed to boost the number of intercontinental flights using the disputed MD-11 plane if it wanted to stick to its plans to transform Zaventem airport into an intercontinental hub.

"An intercontinental hub needs intercontinental flights. We can organise ourselves until 2011 with 4 intercontinental flight movements," Roland Steisel, the director of legal and regulatory affairs at DHL, told VRT radio.

"But, as from 2011 -- the start of the new hub -- we would need at least 16 movements using the MD-11. Our businessplan is based on that," he added.

Belgium earlier wrote to DHL asking it to replace the MD-11 plane -- a derivative of the three-engined DC-10 airliner and the last long-range widebodied aircraft to be made by McDonnell Douglas -- with less noisy aircraft as soon as possible.

The government asked DHL to start using what it says are newer, quieter planes such as Boeing's (BA.N: Quote, Profile, Research) B777 from 2011 to operate additional intercontinental flights.

But Steisel said the MD-11 was currently the most efficient airplane destined for intercontinental flights in terms of noise and that there was currently no alternative.

DHL, a unit of Deutsche Post (DPWGn.DE: Quote, Profile, Research) , has made veiled threats to leave the country and take thousands of jobs with it if the global courier does not get its way.

"If setting up an intercontinental hub is not possible in Brussels, then, in 2008, we have to set it up elsewhere. At that time the current hub would have to be transformed into a regional hub," Steisel said.
***************************************************

I think I smell an MD-11 Hushkit opportunity..............
:E

[red_on_yello]

tgdxb,

Things are much clearer now:
You're one of those 'not in my backyard' guys,
with a grudge against Flemish people because you couldn't get a job at SN...which - with hind sight- wasn't too bad as they went bankrupt...
Remember that it was the government - again - who dropped Sabena at the worst time, just after september 11...
SN was indeed a company losing millions, because there was no real management !!!
only politicians were appointent to the board !!

A few things to set straight:

--One morning I counted 20 T.O. between 6:45 and 7:45..-
Again your ignorance makes you blame DHL aircraft,
which NEVER operate at this time

--I believe the solution is, build a new one. Jacques Delors' solution to European unemployment was major construction works... linked to transportation. Just check out Dubai.--

Wasn't that Hitler's theory as well ??
Pls tell me where in Belgium you want to build this airport,
as everybody would like to find this place in this densely populated banana republic !!
Maybe you can built one in the sea (Price 5 billion dollars)
...but then people like you at the Belgain coast will complain.......
Remember the airport has been in BRU since 1941, it is only because people kept building houses closer and closer to the
airport, that it became a populated area....

-my real estate has lost 20% of its value-
Pls tell me where you live, as everywhere i look to buy a house around BRU they have gone up !! Prices near the airport have gone up 8 % the last 10 years, in the Oostrand even 10% (official figures from the notaries)(my guess is you live their, as a lot of French speaking intollerant people moved out of Brussels centre toward Flemish communeties..... because of intollerance towards immigrants)

I have to agree with flip flop, we really don't deserve such companies, as the Flemish part of our country doesn't understand
we need them, although the bloody Walloons are begging for us to come over there...this should ring a bell doesn't it :-)

Can't imagine seeing this discussion over TNT @ LGG,
would like to see the Flemish region oppose their expansion or night flts, like the French bastards in the BRussels region are doing now !!

Can't say i'am proud to be Flemish, seeing how all the money and jobs are sucked out of Flanders... towards the Walloons
But you can't blame the Walloons for being smarter than us :)


Why all the fuss about the MD11's ?? We flew f*cking 20 727's a night for over 10 years and made a billion dollar investment to replace them by 757's.
The 3 governments couldn't agree regarding the expansion plans,
so they agreed to blame the failure on DHL, thus lowering the QC and making any expansion impossible.....unless DHL buys 777's at about 200 million a peace.
If you compare this to the threatment their getting in LEJ,
their decision has been made much easier now :)

[Oshkosh George]

Does anyone have noise comparisons for the MD-11/B777?

I don't think I would call the MD-11 noisy.

[747FOCAL]

The 777 is 2-8 dB cum better margin to Stage 3 than the MD-11.

[Oshkosh George]

Did some research,and this site shows the ICAO figures for a range of aircraft.

http://www.adv-net.org/eng/drv/um_laerm_CE040BA472BB4DD390440010183414B6.php

It shows that the MD-11 is MARGINALLY noisier than the B777.

What's all the fuss about?

[WHBM]

What's all the fuss about?
It's about Belgian politics, and the Flemish speakers scoring points off the French speakers, and vice versa.

The actual situation is irrelevant :rolleyes:

[MPH]

All three versions of the MD-11 engine options (P&W, GE + R.R) are all stage 3 certified. The B777's engine options are also stage 3 with future modificatons brining it up to stage 4. So, this A/C complies with the actual noise restrictions at BRU,must be a political issue (again). I just hope that the pressure the Beluim's are putting pressure on DHL, does not end up in another fiasco for the airline industry in that country...they seem to be good at messing things up in the airline industry!!!!:confused:

[tgdxb]

interesting postings!
while politics is part of the problem, the other serious problem is noise disturbance due to airport's proximity to town centre and neighbouring suburbs, particularly at night. Whatever noise & hushkit level, a plane is noisy at night.
Plus, it is about a private corporation dictating to Belgians what to do.
I think a company like DHL should not be operating off BRU, at least not at night.

[spud]

If Brussels doesn't want aircraft flying from it's airport, maybe it should get it's wish.

[tgdxb]

Flip Flop Flyer,
what a temper!
although I believe you are mixing up quite a few things about Belgium, I tend to agree that the political setup is 'not appropriate' to say the least.
I can hardly agree with your overall assessment of the situation and your comments on my points but I have to respect your position.
I'll just tell you that it would be interesting to walk over the whole of the 'Brussels International Airport' and count the number of French speaking employees there.
I was told at school that sleep is damned important to people's health and I am not the happy one who can sleep w/ DHL & charter night T.O. from 20. Sorry about my genes! Plus, I keep thinking that these overflights are dangerous and I am not the only one, far from that. It wasn't like that when I moved in in 1986 nor was there any study forecasting this sort of evolution. Else I wouldn't have bought there. Any major airport is much further away from the city it serves. Finding another location for a new airport is impossible as long as reasonable people don't want to try.
And a last comment because I do not want to enter a long argument - why is all this decided unilaterally? It would have been better to involve all stakeholders at time of decision to prevent later infightings. It seems like some smart people have decided it wasn't necessary. I would ask again, what would Londoners say if the whole LHR inbound/outbound traffic were dispersed all over London? Hmmmmm...

ps. I live in Wezembeek but you should have been able to guess this from previous postings.

[Oshkosh George]

Maybe Charleroi will welcome them with subsidised landings?

[El Grifo]

Irrespective of what ruddy aircraft the used, they never seemed to get my film packages from ACE to LGW in anything approaching the specified time. When they upgraded their services, it only got worse. To my mind they are a lousy company whatever they fly.

:* :cool: :*

[Avman]

tgdxb , here you are again talking absolute tosh. Do you understand DHL's business concept? The answer is most obviously a resounding "NO"! You are most certainly anti and not pro aviation. And don't lecture me about noise. I lived for several years right under the extended centerline (2.5 miles) of the main runway of an airport served by 1st generation jet airliners and heavy turboprops. :ok: Loved it!!!

[AnwarAmir]

The MD-11 in many places is the most noisy airplane in evidence, and a weapon in the hands of the enemies of civil aviation. ------ ;) suppose DHL is just looking for a good pretext to shift everything over to Leipzig !

Oshkosh; I do NOT know about the SCIENTIFIC noise levels of MD-11 and B777, BUT I sometimes have both types less than 500 meters right in front of me (in the office) and the MD-11 is twice as noisy then the B777. In case of the B777 at start-up I can continue with a phone-conversation while I in case of the MD-11 have to stop for quite a moment.

Avman; you remind me of the time when I helped to search for a new apartment for a friend. People in charge upon enquiry told me that all the important rooms looked AWAY from the airport and that only the toilet was on the airport-side -- and were totally shocked when I told them that THEN their lodgings were out of the question ! And in the end, I had people on the phone who apologized and said that, well, the apartment was open towards the airport-approach (unfortunately) and possibly was NOT what we might be looking for --- and almost burst into laughters when I told them that THIS was exactly what my friend was looking for. He now has his computer at the window and can watch the landing approach from his seat. He can change to the terrace and do the same. And he even can photograph larger aircraft while being to land !
-
:D

[jabird]

Oshkosh,

The site you refer to is a useful resource, although I wish there were a few more aircraft on it - there are big differences for example between different models of 737, and it would be nice to see the Q400 and the project readings for the A380, 7E7 etc on this scale too.

Remember that the DB scale is logarithmic - so taking an approach rating of 103,8DB (MD-11) against 99,4DB (777-200) would show quite a difference - I believe the MD11 would appear to be about 2.7 times as loud, but can anyone confirm the maths - its too late at night for me to want to get my head round this any more).

[tgdxb]

I do appreciate the reasonable comments of AnwarAmir & would appreciate some other people to be a bit more courteous. Everyone has got the right of his opinion, including me.
Bottom line - I just would like to sleep at night!
Problem is people like Avman - and a few others posting - are stubbornly sticking to one concept of BRU and are not even thinking 'out of the box' to find solutions. The airport industry has acknowledged this sort of problems for a long while, even LHR and their T5 plans.
We are living in a democracy and decisions should be made this way. DHL have completely failed with communications management. It is not right imposing one's views or appearing to be doing so.
I am working in aviation and don't mind whether you believe it or not.
I love aviation and don't mind whether you believe it or not.
I hate noise at night whether you like it or not and even if you are lucky enough not to be disturbed by it.

[Mark Lewis]

As far as I am aware DHL don't have any MD11s anyway? I assume they use Fedex ones instead?

[Avman]

I think the MD-11 services are flown by WORLD and GEMINI, one service each daily.

[Daysleeper]

DHL has a large contract with Lufthansa for joint use of LH Cargo MD-11s on a number of routes worldwide as well as transatlantic MD-11 lift from Gemini. (plus others on an ad-hoc basis.)

[BraceBrace]

tgdxb,

When flying around in Belgium, noise abatement is a serious issue and we try to respect it in every way. We hardly have any "standard" procedures anymore. The story is not as simple as you describe it here. Aviation has always been looking for solutions for the noise problem.

How can you claim that "DHL have failed in communications management"? They are very aware of the noise problem. When Sabena was forced to renew it's fleet, it ended up banckrupt. Why? Politics. DHL did the same thing, it replaced a full 727 fleet with 757 because of the noise problem. And it's still a profiteable company, creating necessary, stable employment.

SID's changed because of noise-abatement. You can't blame DHL for the plan that was constructed by the politicians, a plan that hit innocent people indeed. I agree.

It's DHL's choice which planes it wants to use. No matter what aircraft you choose, it will make noise. I doubt if 90% of the people complaining about "no sleep" will be able to tell the difference between a departing 777, or a departing MD11, standing blindfolded near the airport. You'll wake up at night hearing a 777 as well. I wake up at night when our neighbour's dog is barking all around. I can sometimes not even sleep if the bread machine at the other side of the road starts rumbling. Not being able to sleep is also psychology...

And in the end, everybody talks about the MD11, blaims DHL and forgets the plans of DHL with the noisy A300.

The story is a lot more complex than you describe. The whole MD11 issue is simply a way for the government not to blame herself.

[Flip Flop Flyer]

You shouldn't assume ...

Gemini and Lufthansa Cargo operate MD-11 freighters on behalf of DHL. FatEx? Are you quite mad? ;)

Anyway, if the public don't fancy the MD-11, I suppose we could always go back to Diesel 8s. That'll bloody teach them! Fancy that, having operated marginal stage 3 tree-holers for a decade, and having replaced them with compartively noiseless 757s, and having replaced DC-10s and DC-8s, suddenly the NIMBYs start bitching about MD-11s. Well you gimme a break!

One problem is that departures and arrivals into BRU at night are now dictated by political rather than operational requirements. So all sorts of weird and wonderful SIDs and STARs are in place off each and every possible, well almost, runway. Alas, instead of disturbing the same people who's always been disturbed, noise has now been distributed to effect a much larger number of people, including the likes of tgdxb who's suddenly been made to realise he's living next to an airport. Oh dear. Now instead of putting blame where it belongs, namely with politicians for meddling with operations and for failing to properly insulate affected houses (funded by increased take-off fees at night, i.e. DHL, but those funds seems to have disappeared or at least not put to use) the dear politicians with their army of spin controllers immediately get the public swung in every which direction, eventually pointing towards DHL. And people goddamn fall for the old Belgian politio trick of playing Flemmish against Wallons while they wash their hands. Mind numbing.

Yes, our aeroplanes fly at night and aeroplanes make noise. However, in order to pick up a packet in Rome late afternoon and delivering it in London next morning, requires that you do the transporting bit sort of inbetween. Between afternoon and morning is evening and night (I'm doing this slowly so that tgdxb doesn't get lost) and this is when DHL, FedEx, UPS, TNT etc does the transporting bit. Insofar as noone as yet inveted the transmogryffic teleporter, we're sadly being forced to do the transporting bit with existing means. Those means are aeroplanes. To what should have been the great pleasure of Belgium in general and the Brussels area in particular, DHL has enjoyed tremendous growth over the last decade and has developed the BRU Hub into being a major employer. This is supposedly good, as Belgium lost a lot of industry jobs in the same period.

Now we've got new ownership with even bigger plans to slay dragons far and wide, who have merged 2 major and 1 smaller brand into a 170.000 strong workforce and a very large number of billions of Euro's in turnover to make that happen. Part of the plan is an intercontinental superhub and a considerable expansion of the regional network.. That requires transportation and unless someone invents the transmogryffic teleporter, existing means will have to be used. The regional European fleet is planned to grow from 40-odd to 75-odd over the next 6ish years. The number of daily intercontinental flights out of Europe will go from 6ish to 20ish. All that is publicly expressed plans by DPWN. DHL needs to grow and would like to stay in BRU, but the infrastructure will need considerable updating. If, for whatever reason, BRU cannot provide the required platform for growth then DHL will be forced to take it's intercontinental superhub elsewhere, to what will be a rather substantial loss to the Belgian economy.

But tkdxb will be able to sleep a little better at night (unless they plant a TGV line or a motorway in his backyard - you never know) so that's alright. Those 15000 people loosing their jobs are mainly Flemmish speaking anyway, so he could care less.

As luck would have it, I also speak German, and Leipzig should be a charming place the optimists say.

[MPH]

Does anybody know how many db's a train makes as it rumbles past one of these Flemish or Walloon homes at night?.....every night!! Do they have silent trucks or are the cars and scooters so muffled that they pass through the night unheard? Beats me how 3 or 4 planes a night on very tight SID's and STAR's, can be any diffrent?:confused:

[DingerX]

Having spent the coldest summer in my life in a top-floor apartment in NE Brussels, I can say with authority that the MD-11 is really loud. From the ground, 744s sound like clipper ships in comparison.
That said, I have little sympathy for the NIMBY crowd in two conditions:
A) Their domicile was constructed after the airport was.
B) The government was so stupid/corrupt/bureaucratically dysfunctional as to construct an airport immediately downwind of their capital and major population center.

B) applies in this case. It's now worse that the EU has moved all their bureaucratic machinery to northern Brussels.



Trains go slowly through Brussels., but there's only so much you can back off the throttle in climbout.

[tgdxb]

I am not a firm believer in the increasing number of employees that DHL - ever changing numbers - are promising to Belgium. Furthermore the costs of employment in Europe is so high that the only key differentiator Belgiums needs to develop are value add skills.
Whatever you do around Brussels you will affect people, whether me or others. And it will disturb a fraction of the population. We can argue about how big it is, of course.
This said an operation like DHL should not be at an airport so close to a city like Brussels. Other airports are available - and have expressed interest - even in quieter locations. Now if DHL are so inflexible that they do only want BRU then I'd say I do not mind the move to Leipzig. Despite all the 'compliments' made about this country, it has a high faculty of adapting to circumstances despite its small size.
Coming back to my initial issue - it was not so much that I am again DHL in particular but about noise at night & the danger of using 20 for T.O. All this done in a unilaterla way. No need to restart an argument here unless something ew can be added to it.
And yes, politics is for a large part the cause of all these problems but not only.

[TopBunk]

tgdxb

What of the following do you not understand ..... there is no additional danger in using 20 vs 25L/R for departure.

As to the noise, I sympathise and suggest that you elect different politicians, but I think you'll find that the politicians will not want to lose the DHL business to LEJ or elsewhere and that all flavours of politics will take the same view.

[JP4]

I'm just coming back from Leipzig, where I heard that Leipzig was choosen 2 weeks ago by DHL!!! Rumors only??? May be not!

So what's happening in Belgium? Maybe the government is just dragging his feet before releasing the news to have time to decide which political group will be charged with the responsability of the DHL departure to Leipzig!

[runawayedge]

tgdxb

I have noticed on quite a number of threads that you claim involvement with and have a love of the aviation industry. However in all your postings it comes with a but, or as others in previous threads have referred to as a chip. I think you would be better off lobbying for Brussels' closure and free up all those aircraft to those of us who enjoy reaping the economic benefits that an airport brings to a region. You then will have plenty of idle time through forced retirement to pay us a visit and admire the many aircraft merrily operating at other airports, and when you choose return to your quiet solitude. To think so many European issues are decided in Brussels. It makes one wonder! Finally, which was there first? You or the airport!

[DingerX]

Yeah, and I'll add that I was under 25, as was the entire capital of Belgium. There's no way 20 can involve flying over more people, but I think most will agree that the best solution is not to use Zaventem: either build a new airfield to the SW of Brussels, or move the flights elsewhere. With EU being headquartered in Brussels, the only way I'd consider operating into there would be if I had a guarantee from the government not to have flight ops interfered with nor to be liable for any lawsuits. Yes, the EU will bring added revenue, but those seats are being taken by lawyers.
Anyway, DHL will probably be playing BRU off Leipzig for a while, but ultimately, it'd make more sense (and money) to move to Leipzig.

[tgdxb]

runawayedge,
well, based on your statement LHR must be stupid, as well. It 'only' took them 5 years to clear the path for T5... and CDG had to pay so much compensation to neighbouring citizens for noise disturbance (although they came in late)... and FRA refused an additional rwy for ecological reasons.
This makes us quite a few thousands stupid people around Europe, especially compared with your bright mind.
I would just say, if ALL parties affected would have sit down together and think together 'out of the box' to find a solution but no, some clever people like you felt like it is sufficient to consider the critically needed airport ops to impose uncontrolled growth on to 'innocent' people like me.
Any well organised & managed business includes change mgt as part of the mission critical functions. Change mgt includes among other identifying the potential issues & risks and put in place plans to address them. Another area is resistance to change and what needs to be done to address it. Was this done in the case of BRU? Hmmmm.....
I am sorry I was even born.

[runawayedge]

I am suspicious of what you're motivations are and why you are posting on this forum. I think if the thread you started on RWY 20 and this were merged it would help. Your response to my previous post intrigues me as you have not referred to points made and ultimatey the question who was there first you or the airport? By the way who mentioned 'stupid' I certainly did not!

[tgdxb]

runawayedge,
I do not understand what makes you suspicious but would be more than willing to clarify misunderstandings.
You are right, both postings should have been merged. The fact is, I started the other one before seeing this one.
The point is not about who was here first. The point is conditions changed dramatically in a way that could not be forecasted - not even suspected - without any consideration for the impact & consequences. And I can guarantee you, I am not an isolated case. Not even internationally.

[almost professional]

looks like those who disagreed with the noise have won-BBC reporting DHL has announced it is intending to put its new hub elsewhere, Leipsig/Vatry mentioned

[The Sandman]

Sorry - too late all: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3762378.stm

[mutt]

The human ear would not notice the accumulative noise differential between the MD11 and the B777. I could understand BRU’s position if DHL operated classic B747’s, however this is not the case. The capital acquisition costs of 5 B777’s would be approx US$1 billion. Should DHL be expected to pay this money to satisfy the airports requests, or are the locals willing to have their taxes increased in order to allow the government to buy the aircraft for DHL.
I remember that BRU invested a lot of money into the airport infrastructure to attract DHL as they wanted the jobs. Now if looks as if they will be extremely happy to lose them.

Mutt.

[tgdxb]

you are right, this sort of collective failure happens when
1) incompetent politicians mess up things
2) international corporations dictate their will to states
3) 'stupid, unreasonable, anti-aviation etc. etc...' - according to some postings - people like me resist uncontrolled growth.
If people would ever learn the lessons...

[neil armstrong]

tgdxb,
Now it's waiting till some people start protesting against your "aviation related job" then we can close BRU completely and everybody can sleep well and collect unemployment benefits.

Neil:mad:

[tgdxb]

Neil Armstrong,
I understand your disappointment but pls read my previous posting. It has been all extremely poorly and unprofessionally managed by... all... parties. This is a collective failure, although I personally welcome it.
So why are you surprised?

[ironbutt57]

"international corporations dictating their will to states"
mmmmm thought govt's were there to serve the people who elect them....appears a corporation is expressing it's will to grow and expand..and preferably in BRU but will go elsewhere if necessary...should DHL suffer and not expand because of environmental concerns at EBBR?...maybe expand elsewhere....why not....they could bury the whole airport then you folks could take a train to CDG or Schipol when u want to travel....need more trains of course...and more nuke plants to power them...something else for you to whine about huh?

[RampTramp]

2) international corporations dictate their will to states

Not quite sure I can ignore that comment.
'International Corporation' says to Government "We'll create more jobs but we need certain guarantees"
Govenment says "We can't give you those guarantees, we can only offer something a lot less"
'Intl. Corp.' then says "In that case we'll take our jobs elsewhere"

That is the same as you buying something from a shop to do a specific task, asking the salesman for a guarantee that it will do the job & being told it will only do half the job. Would you buy it????

It's actually call ed commercial sense, NOT dictating your will!

I'll shut up now before I really loose it:mad:

RT

[ZRH]

I look at this whole scenario and wonder why would you risk all those jobs in a Europe that is struggling to pay all of its social bills. Airports feed an enormous amount of people and yet nobody realises that.
The Germans must be smiling now......

[dusk2dawn]

Anyway the wind blows...


ATWonline.com (http://www.atwonline.com/indexfull.cfm?newsid=4665)

DHL eliminated Brussels Airport as a possible location for its intercontinental hub after "the political consensus that was needed for DHL to further grow at the airport in Belgium could not be found," the company said in a statement. It added that it will "continue its assessment of the remaining options for expansion: Leipzig and Vatry." Insiders doubted DHL's real commitment to develop Brussels, noting its German owner Deutsche Post would prefer to invest in Leipzig. DHL's plan to expand its current hub in Brussels encompassed the demand to raise the number of yearly night flights to 22,000 from the current limit of 13,000. No agreement could be reached with the different governments over the environmental impact of the increased night flights. DHL said its current business activities at Brussels will remain stable until 2008, after which it will relocate part of its activities. "This would partly affect employees of the hub and of the company airline," it noted. Other activities such as the coordination center, ground express, logistics and forwarding companies will not be affected.

[PENNINE BOY]

DHL BRUSSELS GROUND STAFF ON STRIKE

Believe the ground staff at EBBR went on strike last night!!!
Do you guys never learn!!!!!
Look what happened to Sabena
.
Striking never solves anything, it will only help DHL to make its mind up to Fox trot Oscar to Eastern Germany a lot sooner

[BraceBrace]

Different situation since the decision has already been made,and they now know most of them will lose their job. They already learned, otherwise you would have seen a strike three weeks ago.

[cwatters]

Believe the ground staff at EBBR went on strike last night!!!

That settles it I'm afraid - I won't be using DHL again.

I've currently got a package delayed at Brussels it's been there since wednesday and it's holding up a £140,000 sale. The last two packages I shipped took longer than the regular post!

[avuncular]

##########

[tgdxb]

Avuncular,
Mr Bodson - when he was head of the employers' federation - advised the following to people looking for attractive employment:
1) get a good degree (one is enough)
2) speak as many languages as you can
3) be prepare to relocate where the employment is.
For myself I have practiced all three and I can ensure you I have never been disappointed. Not even by an expat life which has given my family and I so much satisfaction that my daughters now want to do the same.
Don't think! Go ahead!

[tgdxb]

Mutt, you must be damned deaf.

[cwatters]

Of course you will use DHL again. If you are a business man you will always go for the best service/cost.

Exactly. Unfortunately that doesn't appear to be what DHL provide. I can only go by experience.

My package is still in transit after 3.5 days.

..and I know about redundancy. I've been there.

Edit: I've now checked rates for the route I use most..

UPS = 35 Euro (delivery next day before 12am)
Fedex = 41 Euro (delivery next day before 9am)
DHL = 54 Euro

[avuncular]

##########

[Flying Torquewrench]

TGDXB,

You call your self a person with an interest in aviation. Reading your last posts i strongly beleive that you are just the opposite.

You would like to see DHL move to a different airport and keep other people awake. That is al fine with you as long as it is not your sleep that is disturbed. There is only one solution and that is that you relocate to another area as far away from the airport as possible. It is always the same story people rent/buy a house under the approach of an airfield and than start complaining about the noise.

I lived 8 years under the approch for runway 06-24 at Schiphol airport. And yes i agree in the beginning you wake up during the night but you get used to it and after a little while (2-3 weeks) you don't notice the aircraft coming over. And that is even in summertime with the windows open.

[tgdxb]

Flying T..., I would suggest you read all postings under this one and the BRU T.O. rwy 20 issue. You will have more understanding of my points and I have reacted to your sort of points many times. There is no interest in restarting the same argument ever and ever. I know I like aviation and that is enough to me. I have my opinion; you have yours & I do respect it. Just don't assume that because it works for you it will work for everyone. Maybe you could buy my house...

[PENNINE BOY]

AVENCULAR

Dont blame Deutche Post.

Look over your shoulder in Brussels at your Government.
Jeez you guys make me laugh, you need a house or appartment you look at papers or housing agents.
You go and look at your choices are you all blind folded or hard of hearing not to notice that there is a big F/O airport or motorway in the vicinity and that noise might be something to consider.

But all you guys do is moan and go on strike and make it difficult by blocking the approach roads to the airport. Surely it makes sense for DHL to truck all their parcells by road up to Cologne.

I do feel for you guys that are going to be out of work but hey drive down to Liege or Ostend to find work. I have been out of work 3 times in 5 years you have to get on your bike and look usually in another part of Europe.
Having worked at EBBR and lost my job I know what its like.

[chiglet]

tg
OOI, just when did you buy your house?
watp,iktch

[Clarence Oveur]

Vatry, of course.

So, have a pad in downtown Paris and pay 'artiste' tax........groovy.

[tgdxb]

I am afraid it is a bit too easy to put the blame on one party. While I am not part of the political process I heard yesterday the prime minister explain that while it was already difficult to manage the 22,000 landings required by DHL (I thought they wanted 25,000 to 30,000) they - DHL - came back with yet another one for 400% increase of MD-11 movements. Maybe this is an indication that DHL were trying to move away anyway...

[tgdxb]

chiglet,
do the 'treasure search' and read all the posts! You will find the answer. I'll just give you a hint - iit was well before all the serious annoyances started. Wish you a good day!

[red_on_yello]

tgdxb

it was already difficult to manage the 22,000 landings required by DHL (I thought they wanted 25,000 to 30,000)
Maybe this is an indication that DHL were trying to move away anyway...

Jeezes and you think of yourself as an intelligent, educated person...

You just gave an argument AGAINST your claim they wanted to move anyway !!!

DHL indeed asked for 33.000 flights (which they got in both the vatry and leipzig deal)
The governement said "NO WAY" already back in July, asking DHL if they would try to make a plan with just 22.000 flts.

Now tgdxb, if you were DPWN's big boss and you already wanted to move to LEJ, wouldn't you have used that "NO WAY" answer as an excuse to initiate the move and have the public opinion on your side ???

About the MD11 issue:
It is the only longhaul freighter that can be used at BRU, with a QC <12, all other integrators/cargo operatrs(UPS, fedex, eva air, LH, etc) use these aircraft as they are allowed to operate at night...

When the government asked DHL to make the 22.000 flts plan, it gave following limitations: Aircraft had to be qc<12 and total qc 65.000/year. DHL did what was asked, but because the regions couldn't agree on this plan, they wanted DHL to use only QC<8 flights and get rid of the MD11, knowing in advance this would be impossible for DHL.

Why did the government change the rules:
Currently max 25.000 flts and a QC<12 are allowed.
As the government sticked to their max of 25.000 flts,
why didn't they stick to the QC<12 ???

I'm sure you'll sleep tight now, as you won't even think of the 1700 people who lost their jobs, due to the egoism and intollerance of a few.....
hope you feel proud about what you have accomplished !!!!!

[neil armstrong]

Its a lot easier for DHL to start a new hub at another airport than to try to upgrade the BRU hub,this will save a lot of time and a lot of money!
For BRU to find other airlines interested to take DHL place, I wish them luck!
BRU is up for sale and i bet that the price has gone down a bit.
What i wonder is ,will DHL rereg. the OO aircraft when they leave BRU in a couple of years? more jobs to go in the BE CAA.

Neil

[Nineiron]

tdgxb

So it was you who cost me my job. A lot of us would still be flying the B727 today if it wasn't for you.
Now, we know where you live.
Come to think of of it, there are 1700 other people directly out of work as well. At least there will be some satisfaction in knowing that your real estate value will decline with the economy you have sabotaged.
I had to move on, now maybe its your turn.

[tgdxb]

All who generated a posting lately,
you are confusing your target; I am not the one who decided and I had no power to influence. I could only suffer from your ops and you didn't care at the time.
You should direct your blames to the right addressees.
And by the way you would not care either if I would have lost my job...

[neil armstrong]

and you didn't care at the time
As far as i can remember DHL spend a lot of money on replacing the 727 fleet with 757's !!
I dont wish it on anybody to loose there job , as is proven again too many people care only about them self

Neil

[KwikFly]

tgdxb,
You're right on one point, there's much more departures now at BRU than, say, twenty years ago. But people living near a highway or a railroad will say the same thing mate.
Look, we're living in an industrialised world, with all its advantages and disadvantages. If you don't like, move to Africa and don't forget to take pesticide, the noise of the crickets aroud the house beats an MD11 overflying at 1000ft...
Give you another point to consider though.
EAT doesn't have a fancy flying school that turns kids into pilots. I know a great deal of guys who paid many tens of thousands of euro's to get a pilot's license. A lot of'em took heavy loans. A lot of them were flight engineers who made a hell of an effort (in more ways than one) to get the license - for no payrise but anticipating the disappearing need for flight engineers. EAT is one of the rare companies that give these guys a chance.
Now you go and tell these people that they did it all for nothing. Move? Don't speake of things you know nothing about. Many of these people aren't in their twenties you know. Settled, teenage kids.... and a logbook with a few hundreds of hours. Wouldn't be surprised by a guy blowing the fuse. Thank you Belgium

[red_on_yello]

Just saw this on the Belgian new:

Neighbor sews local school for nuisance:

He can't stand the sound of the bell, which sounds the end of schoolday at 4 PM !!

hey tgdxb, must be a friend of yours right :)

this country is going to hell !!!

btw: the school says the bell is Chapter III compliant :)

[tgdxb]

red on...,
you are getting ridiculous. If Belgians are ridiculous - according to your statement - then I guess Britons, French & Germans - to name a few - must be, as well, for they are fighting similar battles. It is not because we are a small country that we should be the (your?) preferred target for bully.
But I won't convince you, will I?

red on...,
and maybe you could identify yourself more clearly than in you rprofile?

[tgdxb]

Kwikfly,
go on and turn your face to Dubai... EK are buying loads of new a/c and hiring quite a number of pilots, including Belgians! As a pilot, traveling should not be a problem for you, should it? I never minded traveling & being an expat. I quite enjoyed it, actually. And so did my family. Belgium is not the end of the world and wolrdl is geting smaller.

[ironbutt57]

Belgium may not be the end of the world, but it is a grim reminder of what happend when too many self serving politicians, and special intrest groups are in control.....what will you bitch about next when the planes are gone?:mad: :mad:

[BraceBrace]

tgdxb, that last post shows you absolutely do not have a clue what you are talking about. You talk the opinion of the general public here, not reality. I did look at Dubai and other countries, they never even took the time to respond. I was not experienced enough I presume. EAT, well they did, and they responded. Gave some hope for the future. Unfortunately, that future might be history today.

I would travel the world immediatly... if you have the money for it, you can send me a PM and I'll return you my account number. The more, the better of course. If it hadn't been for my parents, I wouldn't have had any holiday the last three years, since I need the money to keep everything current. The only time I saw a jet from the inside the last three years, was when I was guiding students around a maintenance hangar... for free that is.

Oh yes, the grass is always greener on the other side of the world. In your dreams tgdxb.

[tgdxb]

brace...,
it is amazing how many clever people ther aree on earth who know everything better than I do and I am the only dumb, stupid one.
EK are introducing a new a/c every third week for the next 3 years and you are telling me they are not hiring? May I suggest you do a search using emirates as the keyword and you will see how many guys have been selected. Why not you then?

[BraceBrace]

I never said you were dumb, I said you were talking about things you apparantly don't know much about. There is a saying in our country you know: "schoenmaker, blijf bij je leest" (it's Dutch, I don't know your mother tongue off course). It can very well be that you are an excellent intelligent workman for the job that you have. What do I know?

I also didn't say they are not hiring. They are hiring, yes, I am aware of that. And then it's easy to say: hey look at EK! Apply you idiot! But again, you don't know what you are talking about.

Do you know the difference between frozen ATPL and ATPL? What is a CPL/ME/IR? Do you know what an integrated ATP course is? Do you know what aircraft EK they fly? Do you know what experience they require?

The sentence "why not you" you added at the end, well, do a search on the subjects mentioned above and compose an answer. I hate waisting time defending myself to people who simply don't know what they are talking about.

[red_on_yello]

tgdxb,

am i ridiculous.... or the guys complaining about bells, trains, aircraft, kindergarten, people mowing their grass, anything really

Of course this isn't a Belgian thing, more of a Western European thing
In Belgium it is problematic because we don't have enough space to build railroads or airport where there is little population.
Even if we could: airports attract industy => thus jobs => thus people who want to live close to their job => thus some complaints from the intolerant ones

This is a lose lose situation, unless there is a mentality change!!
We can't have all the perks in live !!

BTW i lived in Machelen for 28 years (born and raised) next to the highway (VIADUCT), thus also under SID's from RWY25R,
the most used RWY from BRU (now and in the past)
I can honestly say- and everyone i know in this town with me- that I never woke up from aircraft noise and certainly didn't mind seeing an aircraft pass by.... I actually loved watching them fly.

I'm living in Vilvoorde now, pretty close to the railroad, it makes more noise than were hwy or planes, but again nothing i couldn't get used to in 3 weeks...
Different mentality than yours i guess ???

Just one last question:
If you can't stand airplanes, what are you doing on an aviation forum
Or do you just like the airplanes flying over somebody elses head :)

[KwikFly]

Emirates received in 2002 something like 5000 applications...forgot the correct number. Yes, they're hiring at top speed; but the requirements are still 4000hrs for F/O. This is the point I wanted to make: a lot of pilots who started their career a bit later in life -and at great expense- simply don't qualify, simply don't stand a chance.
Besides. It may be nice to expatriate when you're young (and yes I've done it too, I know what I'm talking about) but when you're 45 it's a different ballgame. Go ahead and tell your wife to give up her career. Her friends, parents. Tell your 17year old you're moving, that he'll have to say goodbye to his friends and girlfriends, and that he'll have to go to school in english now. Tell your 80 year old parents they will see you only once or twice per year from now on. Forget about the house you worked so long for, forget about the pension you paid taxes for for 20 years. But look at the bright side: you don't do it for nothing: some of your fellow belgians can now sleep in peace.

[avuncular]

##########

[tgdxb]

brace...,
of course I do not know everything (actually, I wanted to be a pilot) and I am always keen to learn more. Your situation sounds similar to a young - ex SN-pilot - who I know indirectly. he got hired a few months ago by EK. I also heard that they are currently focusing more on less qualified pilot hirings because they have too many currently qualified for upgrade to captain. All this is said based on my knowledge - which is imperfect - and my ignorance of your particular situation. I hope this helps you somewhat. The Belgian flying community has been expanding over the last months. Good luck!
Kwikfly,
your input corresponds almost 100% to the situation I was in when I moved last. And yes, it is hard at the beginning but the same daughter who didn't want to leave is now dreaming of being herself an expat. And the same 'old' parents are now missing their (tourist) visits there. You are right, it is a bit difficult at the beginning but life is sometimes surprising. I reckon it may not apply to your family, though, and I do respect this. Anyway I hope future can be bright(er) for you.

[CR2]

Time to move this one over to AAR forum.

[tgdxb]

red on yello,
I will restate my disagreement - I love aviation a lot but hate being awaken at night by taking off a/c. I can't be held responsible for my genes and I am neither as lucky nor as deaf as you not to be disturbed, especially in an otherwise pretty quiet environment (despite highway proximity).
I think it is crazy to use 2O for T.O. while 25R is long enough so that planes are much higher when reaching more densely populated areas (I did observe this earlier this week while observing T.O. at the airport). Or loads of money having been spent on extending 25L, expropriating people, etc.
Our area was not overflown when I bought in 1986 and there were no plans to ever forecast this.
Flight dispersion is stupid!!!!!!!! And political in belgium, as you very well know!!!!!!! Rather than incomodating more people and not compensating them for it AT ALL, it would be better to concentrate noise and better support people impacted. It is not selfishness - just logic & good sense whether you - and others - believe or agree to this or not.
Enjoy the noise which you do not hear anyway...

[Oshkosh George]

There is NO case whatsoever for compensation when the airport was there first! But whatever I say is pointless,as nothing will bring you into the real world.

[MPH]

So, the proverbial Belguim sujests that we should spend our money on flying schools in Europe (Belguim), set our goals in flying for our national carrier and end up in the Middle East???!!!!! Whow, now I really know that aviation in that country has gone to pot!!! Maybe he should become a politician and look for votes on the perimiters of the airfields which dot that country. Once he has done that he can turn on the trains, cars, trucks etc. Finally we could end up in 'eutopia' and everybody would have to ride a bike???
For the rest of us 'happy landings":{

[Rwy in Sight]

It seems our fellow member tgdxb has been register on the PPRuNe just to whine on bad DHL and belgian goverment that keep him awake at nights because of the use of the runways in BRU.

It seems his so called love for aviation was concentrated on the job application to SN, and his PPRuNe postings limited on the question of DHL in Brussels.

I don't want to say that the guys and gal who are about to loose their jobs at DHL should have chip in to build a runway that wouldn't bother tgdxb.

Anyway,

I am sorry for the people who are about to loose their jobs but maybe DHL is better off at someother european airport.

Rwy in Sight

;) ;)

[tgdxb]

Rwy,
I have been a long time visitor of PPRUNE.
Also, do not see me as the only Belgian citizen thinking this way. The airport mediator has received 10,458 petitions so far and I have ample mail from people in a similar mindset. The belgian gvt would not have behaved this way only to please me...

[tgdxb]

Oshkosh,
not was was said in CDG nor in LHR when they paid people to insulate their houses, for example...

[Oshkosh George]

Don't know about that. But you won't have to--the airport's closing!

Well,you\'ll all be very happy when the airport is forced to close then,and everybody is jobless. You\'ll still not be able to sleep though,as all the people without jobs will be hammering on your door! Better bar the windows.

[PPRuNe Pop]

Two seperate threads running on different forums. Now merged together. Nothing is lost and they slip into date order. Keep going.

PPP

[chiglet]

tgdxb
Wow! 10,458 petitions so far :rolleyes:
A couple of questions:-
1. What is the number of "duplicate" petitions?
2. What is the "total" number of people affected?
Sorry chum, you are the greatest NIMBY that I have heard of.
OOI, I lived along side a busy military [ie noisy ] runway in a tent [and I was a "shift worker"], I then lived under the approach and departure path into Manchester Airport and I now live alongside a [very] busy road, and sleep with the windows open
Sleep well in silence
watp,iktch

[red_on_yello]

tgdxb,

I love it when you anti noise guys come up with figures:

10,458 petitions so far

Petitions were signed by family members and other people signing out of sypmpahty, this probably after you told them stories about your "inhumain" living conditions

Thus 50 percent was signed by people living up to Bruges, Hasselt, Gent.... (for the non-Belgians these towns are 70+ km from the airport)

A friend of mine lives in Limburg and they actually came to his door to ask him to sign a petition against the airport,
He tought it was against Liege....but NO it was against BRU
An airport 90kms away from his home !!!

I remember seeing the local politicians from Meise on TV, urging their resident to sign a petition against ground noise from the Airport....
f*ck !!! Meise is 15 km from the airport, what are these people thinking !!!
People just needed to sign standard letters, politicians did the rest...

Again in the news today, figures given by the airport's "ommbudsman" - guy where you can send the noise complaints

Before DHL decided to move somewhere else:
2000 complaints a day.

After the announcement of their move:
30 complaints + now also emails from people who are disgusted with tgdxb friend's victory and the loss of 1700 jobs

He confirmed that the +/- 1900 other mails he got (per day !!)
were auto generated by anti-noise lobby websites !!

CONCLUSION: Only about 30 real complaints !!!
1700 direct jobs + 3000 indirect jobs lost for 30 complaints !!

tgdxb, I think you should post you replies on an anti-noise site,
NOT AN AVIATION SITE

You are -as everybody else- entitled to your opinion,
but i'am affraid you won't be able to get any pilot on your side

Would also be nice that you answer or comment on other peoples arguments and questions iso always trying to find new arguments from your own

It's also typical of you that you are telling Belgian pilots they should stop complaining about the loss of flying jobs in Belgium, they should just take a job at Emirates
(again you might not have noticed, but there are thousands of pilots out of a job, so they won't be the only one applying !!)

Also it's not because you like to be an expat, that everybody likes to move from their home country

Yet it's your complaining that causes these jobs to dissapear from Belgium in the first place.....
(oohh you didn't know DHL/EAT is a Belgian airline which employes...right... Belgian pilots... some of which ex-Sabena)

I'm really trying to see you as aviation enthousiast, but i still have to find a sign of it, man !!

sleep tight

PS
there are 99 percent deaf people in Belgium, as you call anyone who isn't bothered by aircraft noise as .... deaf

[chiglet]

It seems that tg's gone quiet. Perhaps he's taken his own advice, and gone expat, to get a bit of a kip :ok:
watp,iktch

[tgdxb]

red, chiglet,
this has become a 'dialog of deaf' and I do not see how this further contributes to a constructive discussion. Of course, I do read & respect your views. And I can understand your frustration.
But I'll tell you, when I was told that SN would not be able to hire me because of an imbalance between Flemish & French speaking employees (I was hired by a major multinational company; so must not have been that bad skills profile) and when I see the incredible imbalance of Flemish employee at/around the airport (this is an... international... airport) now - where are the jobs for French speaking people?! -, it is hard for me to feel a lot of sympathy.
And do not treat me as selfish; what were/are the people on the other - your? - side?
We are living in a democracy and big decisions should incorporate all stakeholders, not only those like you guys.

[red_on_yello]

tgdxb,

That's the problem - or blessing - of living in a country where
we speak 2 official languages (even 3 if you count the German community)

If you look at any job vacancy in belgium there's a requirement to speak both official languages, that's why you get BOTH languages in school !!

It is a fact that almost all Flemish people speak French,
which can't be said about the French !
(just look at the politicians on tv, i almost have to cry when i see a Walloon politician trying to speak Dutch...these guys should be well educated)
Why do they refuse or are they unable to speak Dutch???

Different mentality:
Flemish people are open to other cultures,
they do not think their culture/language is superior to other cultures

Example:
All foreign movies on Flemish television have subtitles,
on Walloon tv they are dubbed in French.

Think about this:
22 percent of people in Brussels are unemployed,
only 5 percent of those are Flemish speaking !!

All the others are French speaking.
Why don't they want to learn Dutch, so they can get a job in Flanders, that's where the jobs are !!!!

If - due to some miracle - there would be jobs in Wallonia,
I would just go work over there, as i also speak French
Being bilingual is a must in Belgium to find a job !!

This country has to many politicians,
thus also the reason why you didn't get a job at SN.
They should just take the right man for the right job !!
But you cannot blame Flemish people for this !!

BTW in which multinational company do you work ??
Hope they don't produce or transport anything that could
eventually get Green politicians to take away your licenses
and throw you out on the street !!
You'll feel like all those DHL people now

[tgdxb]

red,
I am afraid this is the wrong place to start debating this topic.
I'll just add that I am french speaking - not Walloon who are not exactly the way you depict them BTW - and spoke already 3 languages when SN could not hire me (Dutch was one of them & I was more than happy to work in Zaventem!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!). Today I am speaking 5 languages and don't need Belgium to live anymore because I feel the country is stupidly wasting its energy with internal infightings, despite its huge capabilities and potential.
I am afraid I disagree with your biased view of how great & superior the Flemish community/economy is but I do not want to enter any argument on this topic here because it will be endless.
I am a strong believer that 'United, we Stand'. Today Belgium is taking the absolute wrong direction but I am unable to change this.

[MPH]

Whooow, 4 more pages and we might be able to get txd to fly an MD11 down rwy 25 (BRU) in the middle of the night!!!!:D

[tgdxb]

mph,
you are right - might be quieter to sleep in there

[red_on_yello]

tgdxb,

I am afraid this is the wrong place to start debating this topic

correct me if i'am wrong, but weren't you the guy who started talking about language issues:

" I didn't get a job at SN, because i wasn't Flemish"
" Majority of the jobs on the airport are for Flemish people"
" French speaking people get only the nuisance from the airport"

Is that typical of a French speaking Belgian, who is in FAVOR of united we stand ??

Today I am speaking 5 languages and don't need Belgium to live anymore

I'am very happy to hear you don't need Belgium anymore,
but could you have decided that and moved abroad, BEFORE you and your friends started the anti-noise lobby ??
Could have saved some jobs ....ooh sorry, forgot they were only Flemish jobs

United we stand indeed and it would be a stupid idea to split Belgium, there should be solidarity between Flanders/Wallonia
There actually is, because there is a money flow of 11 billion Euro per year from Flanders to Wallonia/Brussels region...
But this stuff is off topic ....

Also, where did I state that Flemish people were superior ??

Anyway enjoy your new country,
but don't move to close to an airport i beg you !!

[runawayedge]

Why are we entertaining this anti-aviation, anti noise, anti everything, on this site. In fact I think tgdxb should now be referred to as 'Aunty'. If you are leaving Belgium imminently as you suggested in your last post, why did you go to so much effort to cause so much trouble before your departure. As with most antis anything is fair in the justification of the cause. When you do move please make sure it is as far as possible from any avaition related activities. Can I recommend the North Pole, better still launch yourself into outer space!

[tgdxb]

runawayedge,
definitely not an anti-aviation nor anti everything chat but anti 'noise at night'. If you think differently from the postings, you missed the point.
runaway... red...,
you bet airport & associated noise will... definitely... be on my selection criteria when I moved away from BRU and intolerant & single minded people like you. Don't misstate me - I can accept airport noise during the day, as I have been doing for 18 years now.
I am stil trying to laugh at your 'humour'

red...,
I said, I was stopping arguing about the regional issue because I believe we won\'t be able to agree anyway. But I do respect your standpoint, though.

[red_on_yello]

tgdxb,

hahahahahaha, typical :-)

There isn't a single person on this forum who agrees with you,
yet WE are "intolerant and single minded" :confused:

I actually think it's great tgdxb is on this forum,
trying desperately to re-educate us dumb aviation people to become 5-language speaking, anti noise ex-pats

Sorry... not anti noise....just anti - RWY 20 take off :D

I always had a certain view on anti-noise people.....well you're just like i thought you would be....

Appreciate you can stand the airport noise at day :ok:

[tgdxb]

red...,
the way you depict the situation shows by itself how much biased or how much misinformed you are by your politicians.
I have in my own company Flemish people who do NOT - I repeat, NOT - speak French not even understand it. I have faced Aviapartner employees at BRU who could ONLY - I repeat, ONLY - speak Flemish, not even English. These are ONLY a couple of examples. How did these guys get a job in an international environment? There are other reasons for this imbalance which I do not want to expose to the world because it would make this country ridiculous.

some food for thoughts...
found on http://www.scan-uk.mmu.ac.uk/Topics/noise.html
see following extract (hmmmm.... coming from the UK even)
Management Case Study

A noise control programme has been running at Manchester Airport (UK) for over 20 years. The aim of the programme is to keep disturbance as low as possible by:

limiting night flights, and especially the number of noisier aircraft which fly at night;
encouraging the phase out of Chapter 2 aircraft quicker than the law requires;
using incentives and penalties to encourage airlines to use the quieter types of aircraft and for their pilots to fly them as quietly as possible;
working with the airlines and NATS to design PNR’s which keep aircraft as far as possible away from built-up areas and which allow good track keeping;
working with pilots and NATS to develop quieter ways of flying aircraft;
providing a noise reduction enclosure at the airport for aircraft engine testing and encouraging its use through fees and charges levied;
supplying ‘mains’ fixed electrical power units (FEPs) on each stand to allow aircraft to switch off their noisy on-board electrical generators (APU);
enforcing noise control procedures.
The Manchester Airport Noise and Track Information System (MANTIS) checks and records every aircraft within 30 kilometres of the Airport up to a height of 12,000 feet. This shows exactly where aircraft have flown and how much noise was generated.
MANTIS is used to:

monitor aircraft noise and where they fly, 24 hours a day;
determine how new procedures are working and indicate where airlines and NATS can improve certain aspects;
automatically identify any aircraft which breaks the noise rules in order that they may be penalised;
identify aircraft which stray from the PNRs;
measure and record the effectiveness of the noise reduction programme;
investigate complaints from the community.
In order to further improve the management of noise control a group called the Aircraft Monitoring Group has also been set up. This group includes local people and provides a means of focussing on noise as a particular issue and from a local perspective. In particular this enables the local community to identify and set the priorities for the airport company.
A Pilot Technical Working Group has also been set where pilots and air traffic controllers assist in finding ways of reducing noise levels.

[MPH]

Hi 'tgdb' a least you got that one right!!! MD11 cokpit is probably quieter than, even a train running through your back yard!!!! Happy landings!:O

[tgdxb]

it's a nicely designed a/c; too bad it is so noisy but world can't be perfect, can it?

[mutt]

limiting night flights, and especially the number of noisier aircraft which fly at night;Quota system already in place, DHL replaced the B727/A300’s with quieter B757’s.

encouraging the phase out of Chapter 2 aircraft quicker than the law requires; Chapter 2 is banned.

using incentives and penalties to encourage airlines to use the quieter types of aircraft and for their pilots to fly them as quietly as possible;Got those in place as well.

working with pilots and NATS to develop quieter ways of flying aircraft; done.

enforcing noise control procedures. Done with a vengeance!

Almost forgot, they also decided to spread the noise load by increasing the number of operations from RWY20! :):):)

Check out http://www.boeing.com/commercial/noise/brussels.html

I’m still amazed that you believe that 90.7 EPNdBs wont wake you up while 94.5 EPNdB’s does!

Mutt.

[chiglet]

Just "Googled" Brussels Airport and got, Reuters, Malta Times, China News and a stack of other "News Networks" going on about an "Airport Workers Strike". Something to do with DHL leaving, I gather :p :p
watp,iktch

[tgdxb]

Mutt,
thks for this useful website address.
BTW the one thing that was overlooked in your 'comprehensive' response was the involvement of the local community.
The problem is, even quieter a/c are still noisy at night due to low ambient noise. Also, FYI I read that LHR are referring to 57 dB as the level of noise causing disturbance.

[tgdxb]

given the following input from another posting...

"In simple terms a sound that is 57 dB would be in the normal noise floor of any decent sized city. In other words you would not hear it unless pretty close. At 97 dB, you could hear it for many thousands of feet away.

Every 10 dB you double the noise energy of an event so a 97 dB event is 16 times as loud as a 57 dB event. Its been awhile, I might not be saying that exactly right.

... and seeing BRU seems to have a policy of accepting 91 dB, one wonders why BRU surroundings are noisy!

[runawayedge]

Why don't you find another platform to deliver all your anti-aviation hang ups.....you've more than had your opportunity to lash out at our industry and lots more. In my view this thread has well and truly shot its bolt!!!!!

[tgdxb]

why are you aggressing me for simply posting some real fact & wondering? why are things - not good in UK - good at BRU? what makes you detain the only truth?!

[mutt]

... and seeing BRU seems to have a policy of accepting 91 dB, one wonders why BRU surroundings are noisy!

Our Stage 3 certified B747's are about 105 EPNdBs. You have totally failed to recognize that the airport banned these aircraft at night, they also got DHL to replace the noisy B727's with B757's. They are trying to be a considerate neighbour and yet you are now whining about the MD-11's!

I dont think that you will be happy until the airport bans all night flights :(

Mutt.

[747FOCAL]

No worries Mutt. I am going to make those MD-11s quieter. Maybe they won't have to leave then. :)

ps. I assume you are talking 747-200s when you say 105 EPNdB(Approach???). I can knock 2 dB off that real easy. :E

[tgdxb]

Mutt,
I agree with your view on my position about night T.O.

[mutt]

747FOCAL

2 dB? Is that all? You better go back to the drawing board and come up with something better :) Suggest that you look at a sling-shot concept where the aircraft can be silently blasted into the air prior to starting the engines :):)

Get the idea that aircraft noise is your forte, so what do you think about this? Are the manufacturers and airlines living up to their responsibilities as good neighbours?


tgdxb,

I found you the perfect solution.....

http://www.sportys.com/terryc/images/1657m.jpg

Mutt.

[tgdxb]

Mutt, this is a dialog of 'deaf' :E anyway & I'd rather learn something from these forums than keep arguing. :ok:

[747FOCAL]

LOL Mutt. I can get more out, but the 2 dB can be done for about 10 grand an airplane and gets most configurations to Stage 3 -5 dB. On paper that is. :E

[mutt]

747FOCAL,

We dont have a noise problem with BRU as our 747's are totally banned at night.
tgdxb as a resident is seriously concerned about his nighttime sleeping patterns.
As i said before, you appear to have a direct hand in aircraft noise.... do you believe that the industry has lived up to its requirements???


Mutt.

[tgdxb]

mutt,
747-200? 300? 400?
have you got an idea which airline's is the B747 taking off some time between 23:00 & 01:00? You wouldn't hope to get a better wake up call. :(