JAL payscales

[Recapitulate]

Does anyone know the payscales for JAL

744 Capt / F/O
747 Capt / F/O
777 Capt / F/O
767 Capt / F/O

Thanks---not too much information out there.

[sony]

JAL does not hire foreign pilots onto their "mainline" fleet, ie the 747-400, 777. This is the reason that the pay scales for these aircraft are not published outside of the JAL pilot group.

The only foreign pilots being hired are onto their subsiduary fleets consisting of JALWays and so on. This is 747 classic series aircraft, and I believe a few DC 10's. These pay rates could be obtained from the Contract terms with Hawaii av services or PARC or some crew leasing company of the like.

Hope this helps.

[Kaptin M]

Further to sony's post, all of those aircraft you have asked about, Recap, are crewed by Japanese nationals.
The salary is the same across the board for JAL pilots, regardless of type, dependent on years of service.
Roughly, a JAL Captain receives about USD20k per month basic, stay allowances are about USD100 per night.

ANA currently have foreign crews based on the B767.

[Recapitulate]

What do the JAL First Officers make.

I also hear that the japanese pilots fly their schedule, then are basically always on-call for the other days. Is this true??

Do they receive the twice yearly bonuses that other japanese companies dole out to their employees??

[Kaptin M]

JAL F/O's - again it depends on years of service - but somewhere between 40 - 60% of the JAL Cap's salaries.

"I also hear that the japanese pilots fly their schedule, then are basically always on-call for the other days." :confused:
That's a new one. They get a minimum of 10 days off per month, are usually scheduled for at least 1 meeting (Japanese love their meetings), and may be rostered for standby on the other days.
They usually fly between 40 - 50-something hours most months.....the lowest I've seen was 32 hours.

Yes, they do get the 2 bonuses per year.

[CFIT]

"I also hear that the japanese pilots fly their schedule, then are basically always on-call for the other days."

On a normal monthly schedule, there are 2 kinds of days off. "H" days off (10 days per month) which are guaranteed days off, and blank days off which means that the company can call you for flight duty. If you do not answer the call, you are obligated to call them back within 24 hours, which by then they would have already found someone else to fly.

I hope this answer your questions.

[NZLeardriver]

Does anyone know if there is any chance of a foreigner with Japanese spouse visa and JCAB license getting a job as a local with JAL or ANA? I dont quite have enough hours for the ANA agencies. JALEX said they would give me an interview next year, but I wasnt sure if that was a brush off or not.

thanks

[777Efoh]

NZLeardriver,

Check your PM. Sent you a msg.

Did you contact JALEX directly?

[NZLeardriver]

777Efoh

I didnt receive one.
Yeah I called the Jalex recruitment direct, took a few hours to get to talk to the right person.

[Kaptin M]

You can pm me if you wish NZLwrtJEX.

[murdoch_disliker]

How about terms and conditions for contract Captains at JEX? Are they looking for guys and what kind of package is on offer? Thanks for any info.

[PARC-JALEX pilot]

This is not the company you will want to work in. They do not tell the truth and they do not complie with a contract.
Stay away from there.

[JapJok]

You don`t want to work for ANY company in Japan. They don`t observe contract conditions, and if you`re here through Rishworth, then you`ll get no help from them.

In fact, they will aid and abet the company in attempting to screw you, no doubt for a consideration on the side; that`s the way business is done here.
Rishworth are currently advertising for more 737 Captains; don`t touch them. The guys there are having almost daily battles with the management, and the first group coming up for renewal will almost certainly all go. You`ll only be replacing them.

AirDo are about to recruit through a PARCcontract, and I think it`s generally known that PARC are about the best of the parasitical crew contracting companies. AirDo will almost certainly take guys from within Japan, recently having displayed a penchant for poaching, contrary to what foreign pilots are told on arrival; you won`t be able to move fromone company to another in Japan because they don`t poach each other`s pilots. That may be true for the Japs, but not foreigners.

When you consider the f&%$#& stupid pricks at JCAB and they way they conduct checks (they`re only light aircraft pilots, no airline experience), the blatant racism displayed, the fact that you`re paid a LOT less than the Japs and your standard will be MUCH higher regardless of where you`re from, the never ending `training`that takes you upwards of four months to get a Jap licence (I know of one guy who took 11 months), the constant breaches of contract put down to a `misunderstanding`along with a range of other antagonistic issues, you would not want to come to Japan.

The standard of piloting by the Japs, both Captains and FOs, and engineering here is substandard. I`d like a $ for every time a local Fo has damn near killed me.

The Japs have taken lying to a whole new level, and are the most dishonest, duplicitious and devious people you will ever deal with. They make the Arabs looks like saints.

I`m out of here within a few months and I will NEVER return, not even for a holiday. The Japs have made me hate the place, and there are some things you are just not prepared to do for money. One of them is live and work in this $hithole and work for these C###S.

Sorry for the slightly off topic post. For further info see the `Asiana` thread Most applies to Japanas well

[Stereolab]

WOW! No wonder you had a tough time in Japan...with all the racial slurs in your post, I would hate you too if I were Japanese. Who do you work for? I go to Japan quite often, my wife is Japanese. I never had a problem with the Japanese...they seem to be a lot more honorable than most of us over here in the States. I've heard of some negative experiences from people who work in Japan (doesn't matter what job it is). I found if one has an appreciation for the culture they will reciprocate. Heard some bad stories about the JCAB. I would love to work for Air Japan...

[JapJok]

You've got it back to front dude. I came here with an open mind, don't have a racist bonein my body,still don't hate the Japanese, but they despise us and have made me hat e the place.
On that subject, an American negro is attempting actionagainst a restaurant owner for tossinghim out with the comment 'I don't like black people.' Is that racist? If it happened in the Us or most otherplaces in the civilized world, it would be treated as a serious offence and punished accordingly. Here they don';t have suck laws. Is that racist?

If you are suggesting that my comments on their abilities are a racial slur, they are not. Theyare reality on observations I and my colleagues have made. I've done a sim session with a Japanese captain when he hasn't managed to hold it upright after an engine failure THREE times. I flew it like it was on rails, and I'm told I'm dangerous, and he's told he's very good!! Is that racism on my part? Don't think so. Is it on theirs? probably.

If you come here you'll be nothing more than cheap labour and if you know and accept that then you'll cope better than most do.

Honourable??? The most dishonourable people I've met anywhere in the world and I have been to the US. Far less violent and safer here at a personal level, but not more honourable. They'll sell you down the drain for a couple of yen given the chance.

They're about as honourable as Rishworth from what I'm told talking with Rishworthcontract pilots.
I have friends with Air Japan and they report exactly the same things I have observed. Once again if you can accept that then you'll fit in a lot better than most.

Everything here is a 'misunderstanding' when they violate the contract. Even when the 'misunderstanding' is cleared up, they do the same thing again, but it's because somebody else in the office didn't know. If the same mistake gets made every month, and it will with slight variationsthere aretoo many people in the office to make my contract 'misunderstanding 'free.

At a personal level I have some good Japanese frineds outside the company, nice people, but if they're within the company and you rock the boat, they're like ants. They see it as a personal confrontation which it s not. They'll group,isolate you and then take nips at at you at every opportunity.
JCAB???!!!,,,what aq bunch of pretending wankers. They are nobody light aircraft pilots afew of whom have a jet endorsement on a G4 or G5. They frighten the $hit out of themselves and everybody wlse inJapan air space everytime they get in the things and career across the country busting altitudes etc whilst demonstrating their great expertise whilst handflying in lousy conditions.

Most are former instructors on bonanzas at a civil aviation college and who landed the plum job for a wannabenobody in aviation in Japan. Their only knowledge is books, not systems on the aircraft they're checking type books, for most aren't even endorsed on typ[e,but the AIM-J.
They've elevated themselves to a position they wouldn't rate anywhere else in the world, and even senior maangement are seen bobbing up and down like pigeons infront of them. Crazy, but no crazier than a lot of things here in Japan.

[Stereolab]

American negro? What country do you reside in? Obviously your not from the States. Let me give you a little advice, you say negro in the States, you'll become a crime statistic real fast....

Well, you said "jap" a whole lot in your post as well. "Jap" sounds pretty offensive to me. I'm sorry you had such a negative experience working for your contract company. I know people on contract w/ Hawaii Aviation and IASCO and they seem happy to be there. All are U.S. citizens.

Look, I'm not trying to start a flame war, but you stated:

"The Japs have taken lying to a whole new level, and are the most dishonest, duplicitious and devious people you will ever deal with. They make the Arabs looks like saints."

You don't think that is a racist comment? If I were Japanese and you said that in front of my face, you'd be eating concrete for breakfast.

[Recapitulate]

flame war??? What does that mean?

[JapJok]

My friend, I've said it to the general manager flt ops, and he's not big enough, and in any case recognizes what he is and the truth when he hears it. It is not a racist comment but a factual one. They treat their own people the same way; at least they don't discriminate against foreigners in that way; hundreds of other ways, but not that.

As for a Jap having me eat concrete for brekky, or lunch or in between, they are also the weakest people in that they back down faster than anybody else I've come across. Never wrong mind you, another 'misunderstanding'. Pricks!!!

Jap is no more offensive than yank, ozzie, pom, chinaman, etc.

Your wife is probably a very nice person. Now that I've said that, you can be assured that to work for, they are more than difficult.

I haven't been to the US in quite a few years, and back then, 'negro' was an acceptable term. I have a good friend married to a 'negro' and she is not offended by the term. What should I call them? Blacks?? I would find that offensive, even saying it let alone calling someone it. Maybe Afro American is now the term. Forgive me, and if its the case, then I'lluse it in future.

Discriminatory?? There are tens, if not hun dreds of thousands of Koreans here, third and fourth generations born in Japan, and not permitted to ever hold citizenship nor their descendants. Is that racist, discriminatory? Don't talk to me about racism.

[Capt. Ben Dover]

Hey JapJok!,

Why don't you do the Japanese, the aviation community and the world in general a favour, and shove a stick of dynamite (with a short fuse) up your backside and light it with a blow torch just to make sure!

If you don't like it - get out.


BD

[JapJok]

Ben Dover, you sound like a real idiot, and with a name like that, a fag to boot.

You're an idiot because you didn't read that I am out of here in a few months.
Regardless, I stand by my assertions that they are the worst people inthe world to work for when it comes to contract breaches, and I've contracted in quite a few countries. You'd be familiar with breaches with a name like yours! Additionally they are the most racist people you would ever come across.

Now goback to ben dovering and copping it.

Recapitulate, a flame war is what that moron ben dover is trying to bring on by making inflammatory comments. As you can see I've used enormous restraint and refused the invitation.

However this is all getting off the topic, so I'll comment no further on peripheral issues, and most definitely not on insignificant peripheral issues like ben.

[JB3]

Well I would have to agree whole heartedly with JapJok. I have lived in Japan now for almost 4 years. I came here from Europe with a completely open mind and all seemed to go well until completion of the line training. It was not until established on the line that things started to go south.

Part of the blame surely lies with our contractor. Although our contract specified a minimum of days off and so on, this was never the case. Also accomodation was extremely sub-standard and after engaging the company, the clauses of standard were then removed from the contract. How convenient. Then the company attacked our travel policy, living allowance and cut many things that had been put in writing and agreed upon. The rational for this was that there is a pilot surplus, thus we can chop at will until people decide not to re-sign their contract.

The contracting companies will never stand by their crew as they are more interested in making their monthly commission than rocking the boat.

As most are aware from these forums daily life is difficult in Japan as you are always an outsider. That does not preclude though good relations with your company. If you can integrate as much as possible your life will be more comfortable. The only problem is that from my experience the Japanese management consider all foreign workers as "SLAVES". We are to be used and abused at the discretion of the company. This kind of attitude will always cause undue stress. In my company the Captain is merely a seat warmer. Even low time (1000 hr) F/O's garner more respect than a "gaijin" 10,000hr skipper. If a Captain brings up a tech query it is noted and dealt with. If the same squark was then highlighted on the subsequent leg by the F/O it is mentioned endless times in the endless meetings as a job well done by said F/O in noticing a blade defect etc!!!

Most of the guys you fly with are sound although the practicle common sense is zero. It's SOP only. Don't think - thats the common flaw. Just do it by wrote.... idependant thought is discouraged even though we are pumped full of CRM.

The current situation across Japan company wide seems to be common. Air Japan and JEX CEO's are old friends and the policy is the same. Slash until people leave, then you have the best deal you can get on the "gaijin". Skynet and Skymark are the same. Its all headed downhill like a snowball fellas!

As for me I am hoping to be gone as soon as I can get out. The living conditions for any westerner are testing to say the least. Non - stop noise, audio cessnas and screaming cars in your parking lot at 0800 in the morning have taken their toll. This is for sure a short term job. For anyone considering a long term job, contract stability, lifestyle or the mental wellbeing of a family be warned. Avoid this like the plague.


Best of luck to those who dare...

:yuk:

The mail re the laughable JCAB is also spot on. They have created an image of terror in order to frighten people into compliance.

All checks, line monitors etc that I have ever had with the JCAB have all been with drop kicks from GA. All were ex CAC instructors or bookworms from the filing department with no idea what the hell is involved with an Air Transport Operation.

Most testing question seems to be how many volcanoes in Japan? On land and submerged no less! Wow whatta tuffy! Its lucky everything is done here by rehersal and regurgitation...

As for the racism that has been mentioned previously, it is always there. Look no further than the constant news and newspaper articles about the “foreign crime wave” here. The Mayor of Tokyo Shintaro Ishihara even makes regular public statements to the effect that all foreigners are "sneak thieves", whatever that means? Can you imagine Rudy Guiliani or a mayor from such a similar sized city as Tokyo espousing such racist comments as this? He would be out of a job the next day. It’s just run of the mill here…

Why do you think that the whole of Asia hates the Japanese? Perhaps the Prime Ministers constant prayer visits to the shrine at Yasukuni? The site of class A war criminals? They don\'t care... Japan is not part of Asia as I have often been told. They are all descended directly from the emperor who is himself descended directly from the gods no less!!

So gents, don\'t exect to feel a part of anything here. There are some lovely people to meet ,but, the reality is you are only ever going to be hired help with nothing to say.

If you can handle that then you are the ultimate door mat! Sign up as they are looking to fill the posts of those who have had it.

:ok:

[Stereolab]

You guys must be brits or aussies. I'm a yankee. I know some yanks that work through Hawaii Aviation and IASCO. No problems. What contract company do you guys work for?

Where the #ell were you guys living anyway...off the runway at Narita? Tokyo is an awesome city. The women, food, nightlife...is better than anyplace in the world. Japan knows how to party and they like to hang out with foreigners.

As far as racism issues, the Japanese who are Gen-X and younger tend to be more open and worldly...never encountered any racism what so ever. I think many westerners are nervous because for once in their lives, they are the minority. You want to see racism at it's finest, try comming over here to the States.

Again, I'm sorry your contract experience was a negative one.
BUT DONT GENERALIZE ABOUT THE WHOLE COUNTRY. There are many that have found Japan to be an inviting place to live.

[Capt. Ben Dover]

JJ!

You really do seem to have some sort of problem, and I was merely trying to provide theraputic advice to assist you in purging some of the issues that appear to be troubling you. After all a happy JJ will be in the best interests of everyone.

Subsequent to my first post and your rather turgid and bitter response, I would like to revise my original prescription and suggest that you now add at the least a litre of high octane gasoline to the stick of dynamite. I think this should have the desired effect.

Sadly you seem to be devoid of even the smallest fragment of a sense of humour and one even gets the impression that you have some hang-ups of your own. I suppose I try to have a sense of humour as refelcted in my nom de plume, and rather than being an egocentric fool who believes that my crap does not stink, I can have a bit of a laugh at myself and the taboos that pervade everyday society. After all, we have all been asked to bend over and take it at some stage during our working life!

I will now cuddle up to my wonderful wife (yes, she's Japanese) and ponder what it is about these "gaijin" wankers that come to Japan and insist that if it's not done like it is at home, then we are being cheated or some such rot. As Stereolab noted, the Japanese are a very reasonable people and by the tone of ALL your posts, I have no doubts about why you have failed to develop a viable workable relationship with your employers

By the way, do you need a match?

BD

[The Enema Bandit]

Capt. Ben Dover, do Japanese women take it up the arse?

[JapJok]

Stereolab, if those guys you speak of are with Air Japan, ask those FO's whose contracts included a clause that theywould be upgraded in the first contract period. The management has told them they won t be in violation of their contract. Is Hawaiian aviationdoing anything about it? No. That would make them about as bad as Rishworth and a few others amongst the parasitic recruiting companies.
Those who found Japan an inviting place to live; were they from Bangladesh, Zimbabwe maybe.

Re your comment on honor, there is no honor here. You're on the wrong continent.

I work with an American and a recent statement was "I wish we Americans were a bit/lot more racist like these people and then we wouldn't be the suckers weare for every %$#& who wants to live in the greatest country in the world."

Bend Over, we all have our problems. You married one,so deal with it; don't tell us. We can probably organzie a sympathycard if we do a whip around and it would make you feel better.
Incidentally 'turgid' is a good word; bombastic or rhetorical. Ilike it.

I don't insist that it be done like it is at home, but I do insist that it be done in accordance with my contract, and the pricks will for my remaining few months.

[NZLeardriver]

Japjok

I have heard from others about the problems with the contracts. It is quite unacceptable, both from the airline and the contracter. It sounds pretty bad. I cant comment on the flying aspect as I have not been able to fly in Japan.

However I do disagree with other comments you make. I have found the Japanese to be very honorable, much more so than people in other countries I have lived in. Aviation everywhere is a nasty business.

Jap is insulting. It is not the same as ozzie, yank or pom. Many Australians call themselves ozzies, the Americans named a baseball team the Yankees. No Japanese call themselves Japs.

There are tens, if not hun dreds of thousands of Koreans here, third and fourth generations born in Japan, and not permitted to ever hold citizenship nor their descendants.

This is just not true. Look at Masayoshi Son, founder of Softbank and at one time one of the richest men in the world. His grandparents are Korean and he was a Japanese citizen long before he became rich. Becoming a citizen in Japan is actually easier than in many western countries.

don't have a racist bonein my body

The Japs have taken lying to a whole new level, and are the most dishonest, duplicitious and devious people you will ever deal with. They make the Arabs looks like saints.

You are contradicting yourself.

If it happened in the Us or most otherplaces in the civilized world ...
Maybe I am wrong but you seem to be implying that Japan is not civilised. In actuality is is one of the oldest civilised nations, long before the white man invaded America.

As for your friend`s comment, I wish we Americans were a bit/lot more racist like these people and then we wouldn't be the suckers weare for every %$#& who wants to live in the greatest country in the world."

Give me a break!!! I have lived in both countries. Everytime I enter Japan immigration takes a very short time and ends with `Welcome to Japan`. Entering the US takes hours and is very rude and insulting. If you look lost on the streets of Japan or at the train station people will go out of their way to help you and talk with you. Try that in the states! If anyone gives you directions at all they are likely to be wrong.

It sounds like you were treated really badly by your airline and by the company that hired you. It is very helpful to others that you are passing this on and I thank you. However much of your writing comes across as a rascist diatribe and clouds whatever useful information you have.


nz

[Roadrunner]

JapJok,

Jeez man, chill out.

I have a similar read on the situation as yourself, however, you are letting your emotions get the better of you.

Japan certainly is, to say the least, a rather interesting part of the aviation world. I work for one of the companies you mentioned, however, our maintenance appears impeccable.
Yes, we do put up with a lot of crap, however, in the end, as long as they keep giving away the odd BD most of us are pretty much happy to put up with the misunderstandings in the contract etc.
There will be a fair exodus of pilots from our company in the coming 6 months I'm sure. We all keep an eye out for a better alternative and act when the time is right. Fortunately the Japanese license is a valuable commodity and as long as you can find the right job and keep the bull**** deflector deployed, it ain't all that bad considering the options. Our lot are looking to cut back in areas in the future, they have a big shock coming I believe.
You have found Japan a big eye opener as have most of us. Can I suggest you look upon your experiences as part of life's rich tapestry and move on.
Our mates at Virgin take a fair bit of crap, work far too hard for my liking ( we fly about 55 average per month) and are not as well remunerated as our good selves.
I do agree that the younger generation are quite friendly and accepting of us.

It could be a s*** load worse mate.

[STOKKEN]

Stereolab, I too have been to Japan on vacation and thought it OK...... but you have obviously not experienced working for them,
Jap Jok has, and if he is as wound up as he sounds then it might be worth listening to him . maybe you would change your mind if you worked there... I always listen to people who have done it not wannabes sorry Mate have to take Jap Joks side here

[JapJok]

RR, believe me my friend I'm not wound up but a contract is a contract and I will not tolerate breaches. Simple as that. They wouldn't so why should I??

I make no reservations; these are the worst people to work for regarding contract violations, and they are obsessive, compulsive liars. I can be no kinder. I have spoken with a lot of foreign pilots on contract with Japanese companies and their experiences are the same. They are liars. And vindictive if they don't agree with your position.

Founder of softbank maybe a Japanese citizen, but there are tens of thousands of Koreans wh owill never be. I work with some and have been told the story. They hold alien cards just as we do.

Whoever commented on my statement that I do not have a racist bone in my body and tried to read racism into is gras ping at straws. I haven't said I actually dislike the Japanese. I did say they have made me dislike Japan (the being here) because of their behaviour.

And yes the younger generation are more tolerant of westerners than the older. Quite a number of the guys have established that.

On that note I asked a number of colleagues whether they found Jap offensive. Younger ones didn't, but they said the older ones would. They were called %$$#^ Japs by the occupying powers in the late 40sand can't get over it. Many other countries overcame far greater problems, but the Japanese have difficulty with some name calling, and I suppose that says something about the people.
As for my implication that it is not a civilized country, read into it what you will. India was among the more advanced civilizations 500 years ago also.

Would I encourage any pilot to come here on a contract? No, never!!! It's just not worth the hassles. The idiots at JCAB make sure of that if the other issues don't. I still haven't established how many active volcanoes there are in Japan because each JCAB 'inspector' has a different number depending on whether the submarine ones are included. Nor have I discovered definitively whether the BaiU front is warm or cold.
You will carry the parasites round in the jumpseat as though it s their private taxi service,so they can claim flight payas they head off for their dirty weekends out of To kyo. I had some d***head mechanic ask me for my licence a few days back. He wouldn't know what a licence looked like but they have to wield the power, and to see company managements bobbing up and down, like pigeons on heat, to them is just humiliating to watch.

Anyway, this is way off topic, and I'm as guilty as anybody else and maybe more so for putting it there.

I suggest if we want to discuss flying in Japan generally, the pros and cons, that we start a new thread. Maybe a cut and past e from this thread could kick it off.