CAA Safety Evenings

[topcat450]

Flicking through the Pilot Magazine diary - my eye's were drawn to the CAA Safety Evenings which they hold at various airfields across the country. As there are a couple not a million miles from me shortly, I was curious as to what they were all about?

Has anyone here been to one? Is it a worthwhile way to spend an evening?

[Sedbergh]

IMHO they are certainly worth attending - some aspects are very illuminating. e.g. they gave us a very good practical demo of the way in which disorientation in clouds works.

Allegedly according to the statistics, pilots who attend them have fewer accidents. It may of course be that people who see fit to attend them are already predisposed to "thinking safety"

PS They also put a nice stamp in your logbook to say that you've been.

[Kolibear]

I've been to a couple of evenings and they are definately worth attending.

The presenter, David Cockburn, is a very good speaker in his own right and he normally brings along another guest speaker from the CAA too.

I would strongly recommend that you go to it.


CAA Safety Evenings (http://www.caa.co.uk/srg/general_aviation/event.asp)

[Genghis the Engineer]

I've been to 4 or 5 of these over the last ten years or so, and from that position I'm going to be slightly controversial. I think that these safety evenings have lost their way slightly.

The main objective now seems to be to frighten GA pilots into not going beyond their limits - all well and good. But doing so with lots of "though shalt nots" instead of constructive advice about the best way to fly safely isn't in my opinion all that helpful. Also some of the advice being given, particularly with regard to microlights, is just plain wrong (the fatal accident rate being quoted was about double that in CAP701, and the explanation of the tumble - a current hot-topic in microlight circles, seriously contradicted the published work on the subject from places like "Microlight Flying" and "Journal of Aerospace Engineering".

For the time being, if you've time and inclination to improve your safety understanding my recommendation would be to use the events organised by GASCo or the PFA (or some commercial ventures such as that run by Irv Lee) which have better researched better qualified speakers (and GASCo is now run by John Thorpe, who used to do the CAA safety evenings). You don't get a stamp in your logbook, but for my money you'll learn far more of real use in keeping you safe.

As to the accident record of safety evening attendees - whenever I've been to them the audience are all the more experienced and cautious pilots anyway; the people who need a bit of education rarely go. That I think is the main reason for that statistic.

That said, it does no harm to be reminded of rules and best practice, and it's a good opportunity to pick up some of CAA's (excellent) safety literature, so not a complete waste of an evening. But, far less useful than it should be.

G

Genghis the controversial.

[2Donkeys]

Genghis

I am not sure that your views are particularly unusual.

The current format, a mixture of doubtful humour and patronising "Know your Limits" stuff is of little use to anybody with more than a few hours under their belt and a desire to look deeper than

"Don't fly in bad weather"; and

"Look at what some silly chappies do in their flying machines".

A good idea badly in need of a serious overhaul - possibly, dare I say, a role to be given to somebody who is not an ex RAF bod on the gentle run down to full retirement.

[IO540]

Having been to a few I think they are good for a very low time low experience PPL who has no interest in flying outside his local area.

Like most of the printed material mailed out by the CAA, they are patronising and of very little value to someone with currency, especially IFR.

They spend a lot of time making points like one should not try to squeeze between terrain and cloudbase - fair enough because that is responsible for a large % of low-currency PPL deaths. But you try to mention instrument flight and the speaker doesn't want to talk about it, and you get hissing from the mostly-over-60 audience who I suspect have plenty of time, say things like "you can go everywhere VFR, young man", and have little need to get involved with clouds. But they all lay out their logbooks, some truly ancient ones, on the table for the speaker to rubber stamp them, so they presumably get a nice warm feeling that they have attended a SAFETY briefing from the UK's foremost SAFETY authority.

Same for the MCASD day in Middle Wallop. A lot of people who feel very important. That event is perhaps of value to somebody flying around that airfield but I went to these with a colleague who like me is IFR current and we felt it was a complete total waste of time.

If you want to be really brave, mention the dreaded three letter word (G-P-S) in one of these meetings :O (I did, just once)

Having said that, the great majority of PPLs fly very little so perhaps this is intentional. It is the nature of this business that once you want to go beyond the £100 burger on a nice sunny Sunday, you are on your own.

Sorry to be "somewhat negative" but I really learnt nothing whatsoever, and the original poster asked for opinions :O

If somebody wants to learn about flying, the best thing is to find an instructor who has been past the nearest crease in his chart, and go to a few places. Or (a far cheaper and safer option because some instructors like going to interesting places a bit too much) find an experienced PPL or PPL/IR pilot and go somewhere with him. It's a whole different world.

[UL730]

topcat450

I go to them and if you learn one new thing - then count it as a bonus.

Sometimes - you garner as much from talking to CAA bods informally at the bar as you do listening to the formal chalk and talk.

I have several reservations about the way M3/JAR145 maintenance outfits work and a discussion on this subject was very helpful. Obviously - this was not on the formal agenda and didn't need to be aired publicly but a bit of networking helped me.
Is it a worthwhile way to spend an evening
OK - if Nicole Kidman asked you to join her on an interesting flight into paradise aboard a G-V , consider it a no brainer - otherwise yes - a worthwhile way to spend an evening.

<<edit: Which would you prefer to get to handle? The G-V or Nicole Kidman?>>

[Flyin'Dutch']

I have to concur with Genghis and 2Ds opinion but would urge people to go at least once.

They could however be a lot more informative, educational and useful.

FD

[niknak]

I trust that those who have made the critisisms of the evenings have also made their feelings known to the CAA Staff who put in a lot of time and effort into formulating and presenting them.

They openly ask for constructive comment in order to improve the work to which they devote a lot of time, if you can't be bothered to do that, what's the point of posting your bitches here?:rolleyes:

[IO540]

I did so, though obviously in a less outspoken manner. Didn't get me anywhere.

[Cusco]

Yep:

Definitely worth a visit: I went to one nearly 5 years ago, but sadly E Anglia is not very well served and its a long trek out of area on a winters weekday evening.

I'm aiming to go again this winter.

One tip: take your logbook 'cos they (used to) mebbee still do give you an endorsement stamp.

Impresses the Yanks if you hire abroad ;)

[Whirlybird]

I've been to these, twice. The first time I was a newish PPL, and I learned a lot. The second time I'd got more hours and experience under my belt, and I'm not sure I learned very much, if anything. But it certainly didn't do any harm, and if I learn one new thing, on a winter evening when I've not much to do anyway, it's probably worth it. I haven't been for a couple of years now so I'm planning to go again.

So, not fantastic, could be better, but possibly quite useful, especially if you're fairly new to flying - that's my verdict.

[DRJAD]

I did attend one last winter (I'm a PPL/IMCR, 175 hrs TT, 103 PIC), and found it food for thought.

After reflection, I believe these evenings to be useful on the whole. Like others, though, I think there are some problems:

i. the style of presentation erred on the side of being patronising

ii. the style of the two speakers differed markedly, with one of them being obviously nervous and in need of a confidence boost for presentational skills.

iii. the content was such that the whole presentation could have been condensed into a fraction of the time taken. (Having carved out an evening from my personal schedule, I was really looking for more content than I got! Particularly around the whole issue of IFR flight and safety.)

iv. the venue left quite a bit to be desired in terms of the sort of comfort required to enable an audience to give full attention to speakers and presentation. (Obviously, this will differ from venue to venue, and they (the CAA) are at the mercy of what is available if they are to bring these presentations to a large audience.)

The most serious criticism being point i., since this is likely to alienate the audience and prevent any messages getting through. A rethink could well be beneficial. (And these thoughts were offered by letter to the organization.)

[Flyin'Dutch']

Nik nak,

I did email the chap who did the presentation that I attended last year.

As I had just returned from an AME course at the FAA HQ a few months earlier and had been exposed to their way of presenting safety information to their 'flock' I was keen to share this information.

The return email was along the lines that 'thank you but we know it all already'

Ah well, I thought I'll keep it all to myself then.

FD

[Gertrude the Wombat]

The second time I'd got more hours and experience under my belt, and I'm not sure I learned very much, if anything. Ah, well, when you attend any training event and come away thinking "I knew all that" then you most certainly have learned something - you've learned that you've been doing it right all this time.

[ChampChump]

Like others above, I have attended several evenings over several years. The first was interesting, informative and useful. Subsequent years were those under the 'new' aegis and even allowing for some deja vu, I felt increasingly patronised.

At one, the first part dragged on too long for the guest speaker to do more than say hello. At another, technical problems with AVAs delayed the proceedings with similar effect and at the last one I went to, the presentation was, frankly, dreary. I had rounded up some people to attend; as first time attendees their reaction was surprisingly negative. I had hoped that the disappointing evenings were just aberrations, but it seems this is not the case.

I know there has been feedback to Mr Cockburn more eloquent than mine. I would merely make the point that variety of content and a rather more dynamic presentation are factors that might attract more pilots - and more than once.

Still willing to learn, I shall inevitably attend another evening soon, but more in hope than expectation.

Now I feel bad about being so negative regarding a worthy cause.
I shall go and re-read Gasco & Gasil immediately.

[nosewheelfirst]

I thought there was a saying in aviation that you never stop learning. If people feel patronised by these talks and think they know it all then maybe they could do the talks themselves and enlighten us all :) Just a thought.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Many of us have. We're also still learning, but would like to build on what we know now, rather than repeat the same lessons.

G

[ChampChump]

That's why I read everything and anything that I suspect might be pertinent, read pPrune parastically (to steal the wisdom of others), eavesdrop at airfields and go to Safety Evenings.

The current format just seems to miss an excellent opprtunity to augment those other sources of knowledge - in a live show.

Perhaps this is a case for the redistribution of income derived from GA: I'm sure these events could utilise more funds.

[GT02FLY]

I've been to 4 or 5 of these events. In my opinion, the chap who is currently presenting these isn't anywhere near as good as his predecessor.

I found the first couple I attended useful, as I was a student/new PPL at the time. Since then though, I find it really frustrating that the presentation is identical each time - exactly the same slides, same 'Who's been framed' style video clips etc etc. The most recent one I attended was April this year - prior to that it was January 2002 - exactly the same. Don't think I'll bother next time.

[DRJAD]

The point about the danger of the talks being patronising is related to the style of presentation, rather than the content.

The content must, of necessity, be mixed, like the experience of the audience. In that context the content is valuable.

In the context of style, I am not intending to be overly critical of individuals, but regret the format, which seems sometimes to be steeped in a culture which can be taken to be patronising.

[Zlin526]

Not wishing to be seen to take sides either way, but having been to a few Safety Evenings over the years, I agree - A bit boring, but then Flight Safety can be seen to be a bit dull. I suppose if pilots didnt crash so regularly, or wipe the nose leg off their Cessna wonderplane, then it wouldnt be needed. However, I wonder how many of those contributing to this thread could travel around the country talking about the same thing, night after night and still make it interesting...I couldnt.:(

Maybe the presenter ought to have dancing girls on to start, get the boring bit over with and then finish with a dirty movie?

[Flyin'Dutch']

I am not sure that I agree there with you Zlin.

I have attended safety meetings that made you sit on the edge of your seat.

And whether someone else could do a better job or not it would be a starter to have some means of evaluation, even if it means having to fill out some form at the end of it.

FD

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

Any suggestions for someone making a cameo appearance at a couple over winter? I think I may have N. Ireland, Sleap and Kemble.

[javelin]

Went to one at Bagby International.

The guy was stick and carrot all night long.

Sat at the back and watched, hoping for some interesting tid bit. None was forthcoming as he mentioned an incident or topic, then said how well the chap or chappess did, then said how the Ministry would probably prosecute !

I give up

:{

[jezbowman]

I was also at the Coventry event on Thursday last. It was yet another CAA safety evening, same topics, same messages. In fact it was the same guy who had done it two years ago when I last attended.

Didn't learn anything new, but all of what was mentioned was good stuff to bring to the forefront of one's mind once in a while. Also, as the guy said, learning from the mistakes of others is a good way to fill that bag of experience before emptying the bag of luck. Of course that can be done from the AAIB reports, but having the more relevent information presented to a group is often benificial.

I must say I thought the level of audenice participation was quite poor, there was just one guy sitting next to me on the front row asking all the questions. The presenter made it quite clear that questions were welcome at any stage during the evening.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Zlin :

You have lost me completely with your comment about pilots wiping the nose wheels off their airplanes and the safety shows?

Would that issue not be because of piss poor instructing?

Chuck E.

[IO540]

Essentially I agree, but nobody can do anything about that.

[HighWing]

Went to the one at Coventry as well.

I found it most enjoyable and informative - particularly the video extracts that served to drive the various points home well.

I guess everyone is entitled to their own opinion about the presenters style. But I have often been struck at how there is a distinct surplus of chiefs in the piloting fraternity...

[metalman]

I have 4000hrs on fixed wing and 600 rorary with 120gliding,as far as i am concerned the CAA safety evening are a total waste of time as they are all about the two people that present them

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

royston

Hopefully you will not bother going to Norwich, Newtownards or Eglington as I wouldn't want to waste my time as the 'guest' speaker talking to you about airspace issues.

[Kolibear]

You have to look at these evenings in terms of their target audience.

The CAA, quite rightly, is concerned with the safety of low-hours pilots and freshly fledged PPLs.

So they concentrate on highlighting fairly basic problems, getting lost, keeping a good look-out, getting too low and too slow, CFIT etc. Problems that I'm sure mega-multi-hour pilots never encounter.

So the evenings content never varies by much, as the CAA would like every new PPL to attend.

There is no point in telling a new PPL the correct R/T procedures to be used when performing IFR aerobatiic in Class A airspace, because its irrelevant to them.

The object of the evening is to learn from the mistakes of other, as you won't have time to make them all yourself.

I can think of two good reasons for attending, the first being that you don't know what you don't know and the second being that someone has travelled a long way to tell you something that may prevent you from making a guest appearance at the AAIB and so deserves your support. The third being - any excuse for a pint and to talk flying.

[Pat Malone]

I went to the Safety Evening last night at Lands End. The place was packed out, as it had been apparently at Compton Abbas the previous night.
The subject matter may seem tedious to some because it's very basic, but the whole point is that neglecting the basics is what kills pilots. We keep having the same accidents over and over again. There's no magic button, and you won't learn some secret formula that will keep you alive. Read the manual, get the Met, practice the usual stuff and know when to bottle it.
I think Cockburn and Bowker do a good job of enlivening the topic, and I'd only seen one of the video clips before. If you've got better things to do than go to a safety evening, you might question your attitudes.

[SKYYACHT]

I used to go to the CAA Safety Evenings anually when John Thorpe used to present them. His presentations were always dynamic and interesting, and he used his own personal photographs to illustrate various safety points. I accept that each year the subject matter remained somewhat similar, but the presentation was always relatively up beat.

I attended a couple of evenings more recently, and found them to be a bit uninspiring. I do still go, as I always try to maintain a high level of safety knowledge and awareness, but they do seem to have become a lot less 'bubbly' and dynamic.

I therefore only go every other year now. I wonder if this makes me a less safe pilot.....

I agree that sometimes the venues are overcrowded, and seating is inadequate, but as has been previously mentioned, the CAA is at the mercy of the hosting club. I am sure that more comfortable seating could be provided in a better environment, but that would neccessitate hiring a hotel room, the cost for which would be have to be picked up by the delegates. I believe that should this happen, then attendance would slump, and a valuable opportunity to pass a safety message to the flying community would be lost.

I consider myself to be reasonably experienced, and have flown all sorts from basic gliders, through to complex twins. I work in aviation, and have over 7000 professional instructing hours. I still think that the Safety Evenings are a good thing, and very worthwhile attending, and there is always an opportunity to learn something new.

It is also an opportunity to have a social event where you can sit and chat with other pilots/aircrew and exchange ideas and thoughts - without everyone rushing off to fly.


I agree that perhaps the CAA should reconsider the format of these evenings.

Tailwinds!


:hmm: :hmm:

[Whirlybird]

Kolibear,

I seem to remember hearing at the first safety evening I ever attended, that most accidents happen to pilots with 200-500 hours. If that's the case, shouldn't they be the target audience? And shouldn't those of us in that hours category be attending?

[IO540]

Pat M

The problem, I think, is that they can't be all things to all people. One assumes, pretty obviously from the subject matter and the attitude to certain questions, that they are aimed at very low time PPLs (I mean PPL only, not even the IMC Rating is spoken of positively). The problem is that most low-time PPLs chuck in their flying very early and certainly long before they get around to attending this or any other sort of seminar. However the CAA will never admit that this is happening, because they would then have to explain why. Most of the regulars at these seminars are semi-retired old timers who may well fly very low hours but I don't think they are the target audience.

Whirly

These statistics, originating from an American publication, come mostly from the place where at least 90% of world's GA population lives and flies: the USA. Pilots over there have a load more money, buy a load more planes, and buy a load more planes before they have had time to build up experience. Since only a tiny % of pilots have any sort of major incident, it doesn't take a lot to skew the figures. You could find two pilots with say 300hrs; one who did it in 2 years and many more who did it over 20-30 years. Obviously their risk profile will differ greatly. 300hrs over 20yrs means you can barely remember which knob does what from one flight to the next, and your flying will very sensibly most likely be limited to Goodwood to Beachy Head and back on perfect sunny days :O

Statistics....

I went to the last CAA seminar with a few others, all of us in the 300-500hr bracket (in a few years) with IMC/IR ratings and we ALL found it absolutely totally dreary. In fact I think the subject is useless even to a new PPL; it is so steeped in "old" advice, discouragement of anything invented after WW2 (GPS). I am sure there are more effective ways to tell a new PPL with more than half a brain to not try to squeeze between a 2000ft hill and a 2200ft cloudbase, in rain.

The problem is that anyone criticising "safety" advice gets castigated. I am saying it could be done a lot better.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Quote :

"The problem is that anyone criticising safety" advice gets castigated. I am saying it could be done a lot better."

Exactly, the bureaucrats have embraced the word " SAFETY " as a motherhood issue to cover everything they pump out of their ever growing empire.. if we even question their mantra we will be considered P.C. incorrect and labeled as missfits in aviation just because we look a little to close at their make believe world.

So f.ck e'm if they can not come up with concrete useful ideas we have the right to question their credibility on any issue.

But of course you must remember that I am not P.C. :ok:

Chuck

[ChampChump]

As I promised myself, I went to an evening last week and was pleasantly surprised by the improvement. The material was much the same but the presentation was far smoother and friendlier. Whether this was the result of experience &/or feedback I don't know, but the assembled gathering displayed greater enjoyment and appreciation than previously noted.

Those I sopke to agreed that there was a lighter touch in evidence, with more acknowledgement of the realities of GA than previously, when the 'official view' was pumped out to the detriment of more honest debate.

The D.A.P. representative also was in good form...

So, regardless of what I might think about an 'ideal' Safety Evening (one size won't fit all, to start with), I am happy to acknowledge that I was impressed by the difference and I will again be encouraging others to attend too. :ok:

[whitingiom]

Speaking as a very low hours student, I was quite surprised that the accidents being 'demonstrated' were from several years ago, and there was no 'recent' content - from my point of view I saw a few situations I hadn't been aware of, but I think some of the more experienced were a bit glazed.

Of more concern was the fact that I was the only student there - I only knew about it as my wife works in government and spotted it on the website.

A bit more publicity would have been handy - don't the CAA have all our addresses from licence applications and could send out invitations?

Overall I enjoyed it, however as a professional trainer (people not flying), the quality of the slides etc. could certainly be improved.

Some of the near miss videos were good!