QF training

[chimbu]

“Has Anything Happened to Qantas Training Since BKK?”

Some minor changes to keep the Safety Dept and media quiet, but, sadly not enough.

The same ‘60’s Tech v’s Cabin attitudes alas prevail. Most Cabin Crew do not engage with Tech Crew, considering most as elitist and “big headed”. Except for short haul, Tech Crew alas also are standoffish, and this is reflected in the workplace.
The Capt still sits at the front of the crew bus, the Cabin Crew at the back. As a rule the more senior the Capt, the worse he/she is at Managing/ linking. Then they are promoted to Management. What a company.

At the twice yearly EPC courses, a charade is played out. Everyone appears to interface and inter-act. That lasts til 1600 on the day. Next day on the aircraft back to standard operation, which is- you do your job, I’ll do mine.

Sadly since QF1, has anything changed?…….not enough.

[Longhauler]

I agree. Quite often, as a social experiment, I get on the bus and sit about 3 or 4 rows from the back. This causes some considerable angst among the cabin crew - especially the more senior ones. This is matched by the look of genuine confusion from some of the tech crew that I am not in the 3rd row from the front. I recently operated a pattern with two cabin crews - one junior and one senior (very, very, senior). It was almost like they worked for two different airlines.

[Capt_SNAFU]

So how often if the captain does not go down the back to say hello, do the cabin crew go up the front and introduce themselves? Of course he must be a bighead and an elitist who hasn't got things to do like liase with the ground engineers the caters the CSM etc.

He should always be to one to make the effort, which unless pushed for time I have seen almost all captains do, to say hello to the crew. Yet when pushed for time and no introductions have been made do the cabin crew ever make the effort on a 9 hour sector to come to the flight deck and say hello. Well I have seen it about a dozen times in my five years and ten of those were from perth based crew.

How many times have cabin crew invited the Tech guys out to dinner or downstairs for crew drinks compared to how often they are asked.

We get an appriecation of there job when we pax or venture down the back, how often do we get a request to sit up the pointy end during T/O or LDG to get an appriecation of ours when we are busy.

When I have ventured to the back of the bus I get strange looks or a "what are you guys doing down the back" statement

Ok enought of a spray, so what should change then. . You state that there are problems what needs to be done to fix it.

[tinpis]

I have been approached in the past by Qantas captains but it was to sell me a block of land or some Amway stuff.

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

Chimbu, your comments have little or nothing to do with training.

[Kaptin M]

Geez you guys make QF sound more like the Asian airlines (with their associated cultures) than the great Ozzie one - the pre'89 Ansett - that I've worked for.

In Asia, the Captain is ALWAYS called "Captain", regardless of where you are....on a day off on the train...having a social drink or meal with the crew, and regardless of asking them to PLEASE call you "M".
"Yes Captain", is the reply!

This was NEVER the case in Ansett, and it NEVER affected the position of the Captain at work, nor caused any erosion of his authority.

I can imagine, however, that with Oz culture being what it is, HAVING to refer to the Captain as "Captain" may well work AGAINST creating a comfortable working environment, and might inhibit the flow of some information to/from the cockpit.

I have occasionally done the same thing (here in Asia) on the crew bus that transports us to/from the hotels on stay patterns, Longhauler, and it's interesting to watch the CC's reactions.
Generally it's firstly one of confusion, but then they make 1 of 2 decisions, either -
1) Because the Captain is seated at the back of the 'bus, they must also sit in order of reverse seniority, with the most junior seated in the front seat (where the Captain usuallly sits), or,
2) They must still sit in order of seniority, with the most senior occupying the front seat.

If one understands Asian culture, then you accept that this is the way it is, and they are uncomfortable being asked to do it any other way.
But in Australia??!!!
It certainly seems to go AGAINST the western concept of practices encouraged to instil a favourable CRM environment, imo.

[spinout]

Sounds like some of the more senior captains should be sent to the regionals to see what it is really like to work as a crew..... One of the great things about the regionals is the way cabin and tech crew get along, maybe some of the long haul cabin crew should also be sent to the regionals to learn what service is… just a thought…

[Cactus Jack]

Thats hilarious, Longhauler. :p :p :p

But you really shouldn't screw about with their minds like that!

The QF culture is evolving though. The dinosaurs are slowly retiring, leaving younger and smarter operators there. The change IS happenning, however slow.

[Three Bars]

And the winner for The Greatest Generalisations and Sweeping Statements goes too ........... (drumroll) ............... THIS THREAD!!!!

Guys,

No two crews are the same. Some crews (cabin and tech) are excellent: some crew are not. Some captains are brilliant: some captains are not. Some CSMs are brilliant: some CSMs are not. Do you get my point?

Personally, I sit toward the front of the bus because I can get off quickly and get to the hotel room. If pleasantries are exchanged then well and good, I'll join in ... if not, who cares? Yes, it would be nice if the cabin crew joined us occasionally for dinner, but then again, that probably has something to do with the boring pilot talk that we would subject them to all night.

Interaction in the bus hardly determines the level of CRM in the professional working environment. Same/same for attendance at the bar/restaurant. Some will want to associate and others won't - it's called Freedom of Association.

[Longhauler]

Three Bars,

"No two crews are the same. Some crews (cabin and tech) are excellent: some crew are not. Some captains are brilliant: some captains are not. Some CSMs are brilliant: some CSMs are not. Do you get my point?"

Yes. I am sure most of us get that point.


"Personally, I sit toward the front of the bus because I can get off quickly and get to the hotel room. "

I was referring to the bus trip on the way to the airport.

"...that probably has something to do with the boring pilot talk that we would subject them to all night. "

Speak for yourself. We all talk shop sometimes but surely there are other aspects of life to be talked about over dinner and a beer? On the other side of the coin, I am sure I couldn't bear listening to SOME of the cabin crew talk all night if the conversations on the bus are anything to go by.

Of course, you are completely correct in your last paragraph.


Just some food for thought.

[BLO MOI]

If you please Chimbu,
I for one take offence at your post,
I for one have been doing my upmost to improve Tech-Cabin Crew relations...
I've educated at least 15 female cabin crew (mostly junior, but on the odd occasion i must admit an older one has crept in),members in the bedroom, and do you think i get even a word of thanks... maybe some heavy panting .. but never any thanks...jeezez....

[Capt Fathom]

The Capt still sits at the front of the crew busThe problem with sitting at the back of the bus is having 15 Cabin Crew try and squeeze into the row behind you!:ugh:

[The Enema Bandit]

Blo Moi, sounds to me like you need to invest in a penis enlarger.

[Sunfish]

I love this thread!

Best post today:

"Interaction in the bus hardly determines the level of CRM in the professional working environment."


With the very greatest of respect, like hell it doesn't!

What happens when the most junior, youngest and least experienced member of the crew notices something is a little bit wrong, that maybe isn't anything anyway, but doesn't have the confidence to report it, for fear of incurring the great Captain's wrath?


Go and learn up on neurolinguistics. Capt Snafu has it spot on. Did anyone ever teach you guys that 90% of communication is non verbal?

[Three Bars]

So Sunfish.

Apart from being a former CEO, member of numerous boards absolute guru on everything, but you are now an expert on CRM, airline operations and non-verbal communications.

As I recall, you are getting a CPL or something for fun - so this obviously outweighs anything I have to say after 20+ years of multi-engine flying. I'm not worthy to be in your presence Sunfish. Tell me more!

[Fris B. Fairing]

Three Bars

And let's not forget:

RIP Ansett. I'd just like to see Qantas disembowelled the same way.

Sunfish
11 Sep 04

[newbe200]

Quick question...

I have been on several flights where the cabin crew did not know the captain's name. Is this normal??

Just to be sure, the crew had already been with the captain so it is not like they joined the tech crew for this sector.

Cheers
nb20

[chimbu]

Then theres the one where the Cabin Crew was still finishing the service, unaware that the 76 had touched down at AKL. During the bus ride to the O/N hotel, not one word was mentioned about this masterpiece of mis-communication. No one, not the Tech Crew, not the Cabin crew asked why or how come? Wasn't til the papers got it next day the beans were spilt.

[Cactus Jack]

Sunfish. You really have a way with words, don't you? You might be a CEO, but you clearly know nothing about flying or CRM. What is clear is your dislike for Qantas.

CRM is Crew Resource Management.

Now, I'll grant you that group dynamics is certainly in force on a bus ride to the hotel, but CRM? Where are the resources that are being managed for Gods sake?

Just because the two groups aren't cosy and sitting in one anothers lap does not mean that professional repect and courtesy does not exist. I've watched this so many times. Generally, ALL of the crew, cabin and flight, interact extremely well in Qantas.

There are exceptions, as is the case world over. But this generally is NOT attributable to cranky old captains, as has been suggested.

Chimbu, you were on that bus were you, son? If not then please keep your cr@p to yourself.

The "tall poppy" syndrome really annoys me sometimes. If there is a valid gripe then lets hear it. Otherwise, this thread is just nonsense from fools.

[Kaptin M]

IMHO, Cactus, not too many other airline pilots consider QANTAS pilots to be tall poppies, wrt the salaries you guys (don't) earn, and having flown with quite a number of QF Captains (during their secondment to SQ), some of the QF sops were "different" to say the least eg. flying with the next track set on the pnf's side..........even if it was at 90 degrees to the current one, for an hour or more. :uhoh:

Big fish - small pond syndrome perhaps?

It's a little bit hard to believe that in the encounter you relate, chimbu, the cabin crew didn't notice the gear extending, the body angle change, and the seat belt sign on for landing. But TOTALLY unbelievable when you state "unaware that the 76 had touched down" :hmm:

[gaunty]

"unaware that the 76 had touched down"

Kaptin my landings are always like that, why, aren't yours.:p :ok: ?:ooh:

[Cactus Jack]

Probably right Kapt. Certainly the biggest fish in this pond, and that makes for the biggest target from wannabes like sunny.

As for the track on the PNF side as a SOP? Not one I've heard of...

[Sunfish]

Cacky mate, I'm not a wannabee, i'm a has been there and done that.

Some of you seem to think that certain issues you face are exclusive to airline pilots. All I am gleefully reminding one or two of you is that you are not a separate species of the human race.

Capt. Snafu had it spot on. The point I think both he and I are making is that mind games and CRM continue OUTSIDE what one or two of you think is the professional environement.

And yes, as a CEO you play mind games as well. My favourite one being reversing the pecking order in a company and treating the youngest and least experienced employees with the greatest of respect and vice versa. Its wonderful waiting for middle managers to catch on about what is important.

Maybe some of you might benefit from trying it some time.

Please let me know if I have to explain this .

[itchybum]

I'm not a wannabee, i'm a has been Maybe that's the problem... :hmm:

[Capt Fathom]

Some of you seem to think that certain issues you face are exclusive to airline pilotsThis is the Professional Pilots Rumour Network. It's where pilots talk about pilots' stuff, and what is happening in our lives. Sometimes humerous, sometimes sad.
If we're that boring to you Sunfish, why don't you head over to the CEO's Forum. I'm sure it will be more interesting there.
:ok:

[Sunfish]

One of the pleasures of the fact that this is a rumour network, is the idea that some of you cling to the word "Professional" as if it was a life ring.

I have to tell you that if I had gone through my career calling myself a "professional" manager, I would have been laughed out of the building.

The best business card I have seen was a manager of Human resources who put his offical title as "Manager, People Stuff".

I would suggest that maybe the title that would create the most respect for a real professional aviator is " Manager, flying stuff".

To put it another way, understatement is a far more appealing characteristic of a professional.

An instructor of mine, after I had promised to try and "land like the master", swiftly remarked that "the masters have feathers". I respectfully suggest that that is a more professional attittude then the "who the f*** are you to tell me anything?" attitude displayed by some people here.

In any case, even if you believe it to be true, there are politer ways to let people down. For example the academic who when faced with hare brained ideas simply replied "Many of my undergraduates ask that question", and proceed to demolish the argument .

In any case, the point has I think been made. CRM is not switched of and on by wearing of uniforms, climbing into a bus or entering an aircraft. This is the simple truth.

[itchybum]

Sunfish it looks like you can't decide between attempting to be taken seriously whether you understand the topic or not (usually not) and an all-too-obvious attempt to bring down the "tall poppies" of the pilot world (in your eyes, at least)... Airline Captains.

In bagging pilots you constantly remind anyone who'll listen that you claim to have once been a CEO of something but I don't think many people take this seriously. As has been pointed out, if you were of such high calibre why are you wasting your time in a rumour forum. No CEO of anything worthwhile that I can think of would carry on the way you do. What are you trying to compensate for? "The older I get the better I was..."

Your tale of CEO mind games and the simple joys it brought you paints you as something of a twit. This is not a personal attack on a fellow pruner, simply an observation. Your spelling and grammar (eg: "politer") tell anyone who looks closely that you're something of a bullsh!tter in your claims of grandeur.

Why are you so hung up on the "professionalism" issue? Were you never given the recognition you always "knew" you deserved? Don't worry about it, you're not alone. Plenty of unrecognised "talent" out there. I'm sure you were a "professional" in your own little field, whatever that was.

If you want to indulge your unrealised dream of pilot bortherhood around here, you need to smarten up. You're developing a reputation for moronicism.

[Sunfish]

Itchy, Nahhhhh! I'm just doing it for the fun of it! I have a great respect for the abilities of professional pilots, they are orders of magnitude better than I will ever be - at flying.

However, with the greatest of respect, outside the flying profession, many of you seem to know SFA, as has been shown repeatedly by the ease with which management rolls all of you in industrial disputes.

I have tried to helpfully suggest ways you might attempt to remedy this and similar situations because I and many others have far more expereince of it than any of you do.

Of course, if you wish to continue to believe that your problems are unique and insist that because you are a professional pilot, no one else can have any valid insight into your condition, go right ahead.

I simply interpret disparaging remarks from you as an inability to face facts and a pathetic clinging to fantasy to support your massive but fragile ego.

[Three Bars]

I think that Sunfish is Winstun with another year's English study at school behind him.

[HANOI]

Sunfish

To put it another way , understatement is a far more appealing characteristic of a professional

Put that against your " I've been a CEO , I have" and other chest beating .

[GalleyHag]

Quite frankly I could care less where I sit on the bus. Yes the Captain does sit at the front but that is of no consequence to me, even at regional the Captain always sat in the front of the taxi, no big deal and its just a matter of respect, if he/she chooses to sit there so be it.

I have nothing to talk to the tech crew about anyway and 99.9% of the time, its boring pilot talk so once again it doesnt bother me at all if I do or do not speak with the tech crew.

However, when it comes to a safety related issue I have no problem raising it with the tech crew should the need arise. All tech crew that I have worked with (even the strange ones) are professional and will NOT ignore you or brush off any concern you have no matter how small.

Where you sit on the bus and if the tech crew talk to you or vice versa in my case is totally irrelevant and has nothing to do with CRM in the aircraft.

[The Librarian]

As tech crew I like to sit at the front of the bus because basically after a long haul flight I tend to fart alot and I find the stench tends to linger a bit more down the back.

That aside this has been a most amusing subject to follow. It has nothing to do with Qantas training and more to do with the institutional system that Qantas has in place. That system may never change because it handed to each new generation of crew by the previous.

Sure as tech crew, the majority of us would agree that the training at Qantas has a long way to go but I believe that good changes are being made that are positive and one day hopefully we will have a training system in place that we as crew members can all be proud of.

Kaptain M had to laugh about your pre 89 dig at Ansett. I know this hurts you but actually Ansett was still a damn good airline post 89 (not a good business but a good airline) and probably made a lot better by the fact that blokes like you were not part of it. You can't help yourself can you.

Loving each day as if its the last

The Librarian

[Kaptin M]

So another thing that I find slightly "amusing" about this post seems to be the fact that "The Captain" in QF enters the crew transport first - ahead of the ladies...be they the F/O, or the F/A's!

In Asian culture, this is the norm - the senior male walks ahead of the group, and creates hellish confusion if he doesn't.
But in Western culture - of which Australia is a part - this is NOT sops.

Librarian - from the standard of your posts, I'd say that you're the sort of individual that likes to sit and inhale his own farts, already being full of sh!te. :p

[Three Bars]

Kaptin M,

Your post reminds me of a story told to me by a friend who flew helicopters in the Sanai during the MFO detachment in the mid-80s.

Apparently at the beginning of the detachment, when the bedouin tribes used to wander the desert, the men and camels were normally at the front and the women were at the back.

After a while, my friend noticed that the women were now at the front, the camels were in the middle and the men were at the back. When my friend commented to an Arab aquaintance that femininism must have finally arrived amongst the bedoiun, his aquaintance replied, "No far from it!! There are thousands of unexploded landmines left out there in the desert. It is easy to find another woman, but not so, a good camel."

[Chimbu chuckles]

Well at the Asian airline I fly for first names are the norm...I'm usually the last on the bus so I can finish me ciggie (hence end up sitting near the front)..usually accompanied by a few smoking FAs. Socialising down root:E is not quite as common as it once was but a fair bit still seems to occurr once in a while if you jag the right crew. Humour and playfull stirring over the interphone common.

Actually a few nights ago was having a few beers in our crew hotel bar in BKK with other crew members when our attention was taken by a large BA crew get together. Positive comments flowed until two of the male FAs started kissing passionately and groping each others back sides:yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

Clearly CRM taken to the extreme :ooh:

[robroy]

They were probably tail gunners,

Cheers

robroy

No offence to real RAAF/RAF/RCAF/USAF any Air Force, gunners at the aft end of a Lanc, B-29, etc, etc, etc.

Cheers,

Robroy

[Cactus Jack]

the fact that "The Captain" in QF enters the crew transport first

Kapt, no-one has stated that this is the case. There is no protocol for this in QF, unlike your carrier. Most of the time, you simply get on the bus when you get there. And really, who cares anyway?

Where you sit on the bus and if the tech crew talk to you or vice versa in my case is totally irrelevant and has nothing to do with CRM in the aircraft.

Well said, hag. This thread is getting rather tedious.

[The Matirx]

Good thread this.

But it has missed the most 'burning' issue in RPT CRM in Australia, namely the failure of QF and DJ crew to adopt theexcellent Jetstar tech crew practice of vacuuming the aircraft on turnarounds..................

[Kaptin M]

There is no protocol for this in QF, unlike your carrier There is a cultural protocol, CJ (better known as "manners") which does vary from society to society - in the Australian (western) culture, it`s generally accepted that the blokes let the sheilas go ahead, with the blokes opening/holding the door for the ladies.

In Asian culture, the senior male always leads.

Surely SOME of the QF blokes have had the sort of upbringing that sets an example (a good one) for those who lack it!

[Cactus Jack]

Geez oh dear. Kapt? Are you now suggesting that QF pilots have no manners?

Please go away with this rubbish.

[BabyMetroBoy]

It's amusing listening to the sudden deathly silence when a cabin crew member sits next to you (the techie) on the bus, whether it be due to lack of seating or because they know you and wish to talk to you. You can hear a pin drop, how could something so ghastly happen? This is followed shortly by whispers of "TCM". Oh dear, don't we have more important things to worry about, like whether we will be able to jig the tv to get free porn at the hotel?

[Cactus Jack]

:ok: :ok: :ok:

For the uninitiated, TCM is "Tech Crew Mole".

[esreverlluf]

. . . or even "Tech Crew Moll" (there is a difference).

Kapt M - please stop stalking Qantas crews getting on and off their busses.

[Cactus Jack]

You are right, es. I just can't spell.:{

[Keg]

lol. I can just picture the Kaptin hiding behind the bushes to see the QF crews doing their stuff. In his defence, I don't think he was having a shot at QF. Perhaps some are being overly sensitive? :confused: :}