BFR in UK without JAA certs

[Chrisdahut1]

Would it be legal for a non JAA licensed FAA CFI to give a BFR (or IPC) to a JAA & FAA licensed private pilot in the UK in a UK reg. aircraft? I would assume that so long as the CFI does not act as PIC for the flight and just excercises his CFI priveleges, it should be OK, at least as far as the FAA is concerned. Not too sure though if the UK authorities would see it the same way.

Any thoughts? Thanks in advance!

[S-Works]

Would the CFI be paid for the work? If the answer is yes then they cant do it as they CAA does not validate FAA CPL on UK aircraft.

I have been thinking for awhile about offfering BFR etc in the UK as there are a lot of FAA pilots around but as I understand it to get paid it would have to be in an N-reg aircraft and meet loads of other requirements. Places like AFTS at Norwich do run FAA courses in N-Reg Aircraft in the UK.

Doing it unpaid is an answer I don't have and look forward to others views!

[Chrisdahut1]

Thanks for the quick response!
I suppose the JAA see the whole flight instructor/commercial pilot thing differently. In the US, a flight instructor who is getting paid to flight instruct is not considered to be excercising the priveleges of his commercial certificate, just the priveleges of the CFI ticket. Hence the need to only have a 3rd class medical etc..

So I guess getting paid is out of the question...however, does the CAA have the interpretation that just by logging flight time I am getting compensated and therefore excercising a privelege I do not have?

[Mike Cross]

The person who is PIC needs to be legal in the aircraft.

Assuming the person receiving the BFR is legal as PIC there is no reason why he should not carry a passenger who happens to be an FAA CFI.

Which rather brings it back to what the FAR's say about it as to whether the BFR can legally be signed off in the circumstances.

Whether or not the pilot can pay someone to be a passenger is an interesting question. It is probably covered by the phrase Subject to the provisions of this article, aerial work means any purpose (other than public transport) for which an aircraft is flown if valuable consideration is given or promised in respect of the flight or the purpose of the flight.
It wouldn't be too difficult to argue that the purpose of the flight is the BFR and therefore any payment to the CFI is payment for the purpose of the flight, which would turn it into Aerial Work and require the PIC to have a commercial license.

Article 130 of the Air Navigation Order available here (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP393.PDF) is probably the reference you need.

[Flyin'Dutch']

In the US, a flight instructor who is getting paid to flight instruct is not considered to be excercising the priveleges of his commercial certificate, just the priveleges of the CFI ticket.

While you can instruct with just a class 3 medical in the states I was under the impression that if you want to do it and get paid for it you will need a CPL and the class 2 medical that goes with it.

FD

[Chrisdahut1]

Interesting Info. However, since the PIC is the one who is paying would it still be a commercial flight? Using the same logic, I'd assume that a flight instructor would always have to be acting PIC in JAA land (this may be the case- I wouldn't know since I am completley ignorant of JAA regulations). Is this true?

flyin\'dutch,

You can instruct for free or get paid for it with a third class and neither case would be considered a "commercial pilot" operation (in the FAA\'s eyes at least).

[Flyin'Dutch']

If you follow that logic why would anyone in the States need a CPL to instruct.

The debate on whether the instructor is the PIC on a BFR/Checkout/JAR training flight or the Pilot who is checked out is a long an boring one which has been had on here many a time before. It usually ended up in name calling. :D

FD

[Chrisdahut1]

The reason why an FAA instructor needs a commercial certificate is because he/she is required to be able to teach commercial students. An instructor is NOT acting as a commercial pilot on instructional flights, even when receiving pay.

[High Wing Drifter]

Hi,

Can I ask what is BFR?

[Mike Cross]

A Biennial Flight Review, not unlike the one hour flight we have to do every two years with an instructor. Needed to validate your FAA license.

[englishal]

I too thought that a CFI needed a class 2 medical to get paid for it, but after checking the FARs there is no mention of this, and it states that to exercise the privileges for the CFI rating, only a class 3 medical is required.

I don't believe the BFR can be completed in a G reg aircraft by an FAA CFI for the reason that the flight by definition is an "instructional flight" and under the JARs you cannot give instruction in a G reg unless you hold a JAA FI ticket.

EDIT:

Just found the reference:
§ 61.23(b)(5); Yes, in accordance with § 61.23(b)(5), a flight instructor who does not hold a medical certificate may give flight and ground training and be compensated for it. In the preamble of the parts 61 and 141 final rule that was published in the Federal Register on April 4, 1997 (62 FR 16220-16367) when the FAA revised the entire Part 61, the FAA stated the following in the Federal Register on page 16242 in response to whether a medical certificate is required for a flight instructor to give ground and flight training:

[BEagle]

To be paid to give JAR-FCL Flight Instruction in the UK, you need a CPL, a valid FI Rating and a JAA Class ONE Medical Certificate....

[Mike Cross]

I believe you will find that a JAA FI rating is only required if the flight is needed to count for the grant or renewal of a JAA license or rating. Even here there are exemptions, you can count up to 10 Hours of PPL training carried out in any ICAO state (not necessarily JAA) towards the total required for a UK JAA PPL.

WRT the BFR it is FAR's that count.

WRT the flight taking place in UK airspace in a G Reg a/c it simply comes down to whether or not the flight is legal in terms of the ANO.

If the trainee is qualified to be PIC in his own right and is PIC and no money changes hands the flight would on the face of it seem legal.

Whether or not FAR's allow the instructor not to be PIC is another matter.

[WestWind1950]

To be paid to give JAR-FCL Flight Instruction in the UK, you need a CPL, a valid FI Rating and a JAA Class ONE Medical Certificate....

in Germany, a JAA State, you do NOT need a CPL, a valid FI rating is obvious, a JAA class 2 medical only is required. And you may get compensated (see § 6 in the 1. DV LuftPersV)

The discussions continue about who is PIC... but in the end, when an instructor is flying AS an instructor i.e. performing instructor duties (training, practice flights, etc.), then he is to be considered the PIC! At least that's the way I interpret the German laws (§ 4 Abs. 4 LuftVG)

@BEagle
if your interested, you can check my homepage... I have most of the relevant paragraphs laid out there... in German, of course ;)

Westy